Author Topic: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.  (Read 21464 times)

Liisa-Sx

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Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« on: September 06, 2009, 11:44:38 PM »
A poster by the name of howmanyhorses on the ebay forums has an interesting site Called "Red Ink Diary" http://200westmain.com/redinkdiary/?p=2193

-----------

howmanyhorses (880)

6/09/2009 03:03

I would think it is doubtful that PayPal would get away with this, or even attempt it in Australia.

You can read about this program here, http://200westmain.com/redinkdiary/?p=2193 lots of links to related articles at the bottom of the post.


-----------


Below is the standard letter apparently being sent out to some sellers, afaik currently this is not in Australia, but you know PP, if they Build it, it will come lol:

Dear XXXXXXX

Your business is important to us, and we are working hard to provide
an easy, fast and secure payment service to you and your customers
while keeping our prices competitive. We're also committed to clearly
communicating changes to our policies and procedures. To that end, we
are writing to inform you of a change to your PayPal account, which
will take effect 30 days from the date of this email.

Beginning 09/30/2009, a small percentage of the total payments you
receive will be held temporarily as a reserve in your account. This
small reserve amount helps to ensure that funds are available to cover
payment reversals or buyer chargebacks, if you do not have a
sufficient PayPal account balance and do not provide the funds to do
so.


A reserve is like a security deposit for your PayPal account and is
standard practice in the payments industry, especially for retail
segments like General where there is a higher-than-average risk of
reversals or chargebacks. This does not mean that you have done
anything wrong. We are requiring a small reserve in your account
because you sell in a category that has a higher risk of reversals and
chargebacks.


Your reserve amount will be 30% of the total payments you receive,
which will be held on a rolling 90-day schedule. That means 30% of the
money you take in each day will be held in your account, and then made
available for withdrawal 90 days later.

For example, if you receive $2,000 every 90 days into your PayPal
account, then a reserve amount of about $1800 would be required on a
rolling 90-day period. In other words, about $20 would be held in
reserve each day, then released 90 days later.

If you are a PayPal Money Market Fund customer, you will still earn
interest on your total balance while your money is in reserve.
Click
here for more information or to enroll in the PayPal Money Market
Fund.

We recognize this is a change in the way we do business with you. By
requiring some merchants to reserve money in their accounts, we're
able to lower our own costs. This helps us to continue providing
competitive pricing for all sellers who use PayPal.
   NB:Hah!

If you have any questions about this change, please call us at
1-877-729-7252. We appreciate your business and look forward to a
continued partnership.

Sincerely,

PayPal



They do dream up some doozies don't they, so my question is, if they are witholding seller funds to "fund" the paypal protection scheme with sellers own funds, is the PP protection scheme legal? as in my eyes there is No scheme, it's a seller funded mandatory policy.

Thoughts?



They said there would be cake....and there WAS!

tellomon

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2009, 11:51:10 PM »
Uh-Oh!

 :wtf:
Bad Flash Zombies :flasher: :zombieguy:  .    No  :lblb: .

*CountessA*

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2009, 12:03:52 AM »
I'd like to establish the veracity of that. Liisa, fascinating find - we should follow that up!
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

Poddy

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2009, 12:14:21 AM »
Al Capone could have learned a lot from these guys !!!

Talk about short term money market fraud and protection racket!!!

90 days !!! Unbelievable !!!!

*smee*

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2009, 12:17:18 AM »
why would they need to keep it 90 days if no dispute had been registered dont you only have 45 days to lodge a dispute?
and if they did insist on holding for 90 days surely they would be compelled to pay interest !!!

tellomon

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2009, 12:30:38 AM »
...surely they would be compelled to pay interest !!!

 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:quack:
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Liisa-Sx

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2009, 12:41:56 AM »
I'd like to establish the veracity of that. Liisa, fascinating find - we should follow that up!

Hi!  In response to your query Countess, here lies the words directly from PayPals mouth, a certain Bill Clarke an analyst on PayPals risk team on their Official Paypal Blog site.

https://www.thepaypalblog.com/2009/06/seller-reserves/

it is a VERY interesting read.

BTW: PP has implimented this with NO notice to anyone prior.



One poster asked a very interesting and valid question:

"So what happens if I sell something for $1000, paypal “reserves” 10%, and the buyer subequently wants to return the item for a refund?

Knowing, as an ebay seller, I have no choice in the current climate but to take a return, where is that reserve money so I can make a full volantary refund? Do I have to take that $100 out of other funds while paypal retains it for 60 days?"


Another posters comment left me dumbfounded as it appears ANY paypal account can be targeted for NO reason, you do NOT have to be an ebay seller.


I have had $170 embezzled out of my account by PayPal under the guise of rolling reserves. Yes, I know that they will eventually put it back, but isn’t that every embezzler’s plan?

I am not an Ebay trader. I don’t shop or sell on e-bay. The explanation I received when I protested this was that with the economy being what it is that credit card companies, yada yada yada. Even the guy on the phone agreed that there was no reason to do this to my account.

If they don’t reverse this I will simply use Google Checkout to bill my retainer clients. I don’t mind paying fees or having reserves when I am properly INFORMED about them at the time of signing the service agreement. What I won’t tolerate is having a perfectly clean account that is several years old have money simply taken out of it because they decide to do so.
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*smee*

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2009, 12:42:05 AM »
Also by wanting to hold 30 % of your funds are they suggesting that 1 in every 3.33 paypal transactions turns to custard ???? if thats the case they shouldnt be allowed to continue to operate !!!

tellomon

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2009, 12:55:30 AM »
Here's a vision of things to come:



(Not a spam post)
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Liisa-Sx

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2009, 01:00:17 AM »
Here is another VERY interesting Official site this one is for Ebay, read and weep, these are the people toying with your livelyhood and how you shop on ebay.

http://developer.ebay.com/community/blog/

If you hunt around the site you will find some scary new apps in developement, including some fabulous ways for them to data mine, some in development stages some existing currently.
They said there would be cake....and there WAS!

*Yibida*

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2009, 01:17:04 AM »


Interesting... could be time for another rebellion?.. I'm up for it !.... bring it on!..what ever it takes.. No Prisoners this time!

Liisa-Sx

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2009, 01:20:20 AM »
See what happens when I get bored lol, I go digging, nothing beats boredom like finding a tidbit, that links to a bigger tidbit.. that uncovers some interesting artifacts.....keep digging and who knows what can be excavated  ;D

Paypal home site explanation:
https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/main.jsp;jsessionid=KgTfhxG9yG3f1N9GVCf5TMLvyMpjVfcCwfjx5nT55SnC2pnHTLc1!-504723214?t=solutionTab&ft=homeTab&ps=&solutionId=185251&locale=en_US&_dyncharset=UTF-8&countrycode=US&cmd=_help&serverInstance=9003

It has hit the UK already also:
http://tamebay.com/2009/02/paypal-reserves-heres-whats-really-happening.html

Ebay.com users not happy jan.....

http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Paypal/Paypals-Quotrolling-Reservequot/520138949

Paypal users Buyers, sellers and everyone else also not happy:
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/online-auction-info/917685/

BTW... You ONLY earn interest on the held funds if you sign up for their money market option, now this may or may not be all well and good considering they do NOT inform you before holding the funds, they just do it randomly at their own discretion.

another plethora of disgruntled users:
http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/running_small_business/archives/2009/08/paypals_reserve.html

It seems that PP in fact DO intend to place every single Ebay user, buyer and seller alike on to the "Paypal Rolling reserve" scheme in due course.

Now I'd like to throw this out there as food for thought... If PayPal go belly up, what do you think will happen to the millions of dollars "held in reserve"  ???  Bon apetite!
They said there would be cake....and there WAS!

tellomon

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2009, 01:27:17 AM »
keep digging and who knows what can be excavated?

Crab People.

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tellomon

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2009, 01:29:20 AM »

Interesting... could be time for another rebellion?.. I'm up for it !.... bring it on!..what ever it takes.. No Prisoners this time!



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Liisa-Sx

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2009, 01:57:38 AM »
Check this interesting tidbit via --> www.Tosback.org <-- a Terms of Service tracker, click the link back there <-- in this sentance to see just how often Paypal change their Tos its amazing lol

Ebay user agreement changed by stealth, before and after comparisons.
http://www.tosback.org/diff.php?vid=770

This article expands and explains on what is shown in the link above:
http://blog.auctionbytes.com/cgi-bin/blog/blog.pl?/pl/2009/8/1250620643.html
Read the reply comments below the main article for further insight.


I'll call it quits for tonight as I have added a LOT of info to absorb, I do however have several bookmarks to continue on with in the next week, so stay tuned.

this one is just for fun, but very real lol....
Need a job?
http://www.ebay.jobs/jobs/customer-solutions-agent-job-lavista-nebraska-ne-270218-71.html
They said there would be cake....and there WAS!

Poddy

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2009, 02:13:27 AM »
Lisa you are a gold mine :)

I personally thank you.

Never let a tyrant get a foothold

Ubb KEELHAUL TIME approaching

*CountessA*

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2009, 02:17:16 AM »
This is really the only adequate response to PayPal in the light of this -  :roughend:

And now something practical needs to be done.
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

tellomon

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2009, 02:17:56 AM »
A chewy morsel from the ^ auctionbytes link:

I had a customer in Brazil buy something and immediately ask for feedback within 5 minutes. RED FLAG 1

I tell him after he receives his product and is happy and leaves me feedback I will do the same to complete the transaction.

GUESS WHAT?
It never arrives!  Ok sure

It was under 20 dollars and not worth paying extra for INT tracking so not a huge disaster.

SOOO...I get curious and check his previous purchases via recent feedback and completed, I contact the sellers of all those items to see if he is doing the same to them. 8 other sellers responded back to me and said he had opened Paypal claims against them for item not recieved.

Same MO across the board..buyer asked all sellers for feedback immediately after purchase. Some of them did leave him feedback in advance. Buyer never left anyone feedback ever.

So in less than a 30 day period one buyer in Brazil filed non receipt claims against me and 8 other very reputable sellers I can confirm and Paypal doesn't see anything at all fishy here?

Paypal very kindly refunded him in full from all our 9 accounts and he is still "shopping" as of this day. He profited approx. 425.00 worth of free merchandise from those 9 free transactions that I know of. I'm SURE there are much more today.

I guess buying on ebay is the new way to make money there?

Why are there no records kept or no limitataions as to how many claims one thief can file?


Have a Nice Day.
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Poddy

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2009, 02:23:32 AM »
NOW THIS IS JUST STUPID !!!!


Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 3pm PT


Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 12pm PT



Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 11am PT


Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 10am PT


Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 8am PT


Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 7am PT


Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 6am PT


Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 2am PT


Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 1am PT

Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 12am PT


Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 1 around 11pm PT


Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 1 around 6pm PT


Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 1 around 5pm PT


Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 1 around 3pm PT


Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 1 around 1pm PT


Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 1 around 11am PT


Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 1 around 9am PT

Liisa-Sx

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2009, 02:49:16 AM »
Lisa you are a gold mine :)

I personally thank you.

Never let a tyrant get a foothold

Ubb KEELHAUL TIME approaching

lol thanks poddy, I used to be a research assistant many moons ago! LOL
Now I really DO need to go get some sleep !!!! ZzzzzzZZzzz
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*Ubbie Max*

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2009, 09:03:17 AM »
Keelhauling, keelhauling, someone mention a keelhauling? I'm ready, when & where, I've got the rope.

cueperkins

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2009, 09:47:26 AM »
I don't think they'd get away with that here, unless RBA gave it the seal of approval, and I don't think that's likely, but then, we've seen them revert to cranial rectal inversion syndrome previously.....

What I find interesting is the imposition of a  'bond' for sellers in certain categories...basically, this is so they can avoid having to dip into their own funds to refund consumers, when dodgy sellers, (they don't bother verifying), do the runner.   In other words, it's just another duck and weave around adequate verification and fraud prevention yet again.

Anyway....exactly which financial institutions require this?  I don't have a minimum balance in my Bank Accounts imposed and nor do I have to keep my CC in credit?...in fact, it tends to work the other way?.  Countess, do you have to keep a security deposit of that amount to have a merchant account?

We recognize this is a change in the way we do business with you. By
requiring some merchants to reserve money in their accounts, we're
able to lower our own costs. This helps us to continue providing
competitive pricing for all sellers who use PayPal.
   

Firstly, sellers who use Paypal, have no bloody choice in the issue.....secondly, how do they know they are dealing with merchants & businesses, if they don't bother verifying if they are in fact merchants & businesses?

And finally, they admit that they DO have a business relationship with sellers?  How convenient, but at least it's in writing...lol...they admit it...they do BUSINESS with sellers on Ebay and as such, they should be compliant with the TPA...but they're not are they?

It goes back to the Unfair contract and misuse of market power debate I posted on the RT way back...they are literally manipulating small business, via a one sided dominant contract, and being the MONOPOLY, they know that sellers can't move their interests elsewhere...it's classic anti competitive conduct and misuse of market power on their part !!!

I only wish sellers would band together and complain to ACCC en mass about Ebay's dominance over small businesses online.

I'd be very happy to mount a mass complaint to ACCC for small business if they impose this rubbish here...it would be worth seeing the little guys stand up and be counted against a dominant thug.

Hey Poddy, that's what I mean about dominant one sided contracts where consumers and businesses have absolutely no right to object or negotiate to  constant contractual changes being imposed...The TPA details this issue quite well....contracts can't just be changed between corporate monopolies and small business without some level of negotiation, and yet EBay/Paypal do, it all the time because nobody stands up to them.

cueperkins

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2009, 09:53:21 AM »
This also seems to be an open admission that Paypal is not the be all, end all, when it comes to consumer chargebacks.....i.e. that it's purely dependent on the seller having funds in their account.....hence, illusory protection is all that is offered and Paypal are lying to consumers by promoting up to $20,000.00 protection now aren't they?

So...what their PR should say is that we offer up to $20,000.00 protection if the seller has that much in his account  If not, so sad, too bad????...

*Ubbie Max*

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2009, 10:08:01 AM »
Very interesting. If Ebay was foolish (or greedy) enough to bring this ruling in here in Australia it could be an opportunity for aggrieved sellers to go back to the ACCC and lodge an objection to the mandatory listing of Paypal. The reason given would be that Paypal must be listed as a payment option and, 30% of all Paypal payments received will be held for ninety days. No interest will be paid to the seller & the money held for ninety days cannot be touched by the seller.

*CountessA*

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2009, 10:42:22 AM »
No, my merchant account CERTAINLY doesn't require any such thing!

Each country of course has different legislation, and it may be that where there's a loophole, PayPal will take advantage of it. There's also the issue that legislation is one thing, and the power to enforce it is another.
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cueperkins

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2009, 10:49:00 AM »
Here's a vision of things to come:



(Not a spam post)

 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

What he said !!

tellomon

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2009, 10:54:05 AM »
I heard that!
Bad Flash Zombies :flasher: :zombieguy:  .    No  :lblb: .

cueperkins

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2009, 11:03:33 AM »
Nothing says "due process of law" like torches and pitchforks.....


*r3830*

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2009, 05:25:14 PM »
I never seriously believed that anybody accepted the "buyer protection" guarantees on face value. So now, the seller is the anchor of maintaining Paypal's glorious promises!!!!  :spam: :sick:

Ubbrd........ Get the guns out! It's time we went hunting.... again!




*Ubbie Max*

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2009, 06:00:47 PM »
I'm with you R numbers, armed & dangerous.

*Brum6y*

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #30 on: September 07, 2009, 06:20:27 PM »
Ubbrd - the only thing I've fired is a .22 - but I'm ready to move up to something bigger.

Anything you could loan me, with a bit of tuition perhaps?

*Ubbie Max*

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2009, 06:22:13 PM »
Brumby. I reckon we should start you off at the deep end, the Barret 50 cal.

*r3830*

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2009, 06:52:23 PM »
"At this point financial institutions are about as trustworthy in their practices as the Corleones – perhaps less so – so it would be a good move on Paypal’s part to put itself on record as a financial institution that can be trusted not to put the consequences of bad company decisions on the backs of customers."

And This comment.....

"We just got hit with 5% rolling reserves and it’s driving me crazy, our gross margins are about 12% with expenses around 8% which leaves us 4% net, we do about $500,00 per month and it’s draining our capital, no matter what I say or did, it’s like talking to a wall, I even signed a personal guarantee, provided purchase invoices etc. etc. with no luck, they wanna hold over $100,000 in reserve for 90 days.

I bet you PayPal wouldn’t do this if Google checkout was integrated into eBay."

Yep.... looks like the changes meet with the pleasure of the users.....

da_ewok

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2009, 10:58:54 PM »
Alright the 90 day holding period is because a CC transaction can be charged back within 90 days - paypal only 45 days

What I find interesting in the allowance to collect interest on the funds they hold - I do beleive that is illegal UNLESS they belong to some sort of Australian scheme, or they could be considered illegal under money laudering scheme (not 100% sure) but fairly sure.

Red-Ink-Diary are renowned for gripes against paypal - often correct and often justified, so nothing wrong there

I do remember the withholdong of funds being mentioned when the last raft a changed went through. I can't remember in what context though :(

Paypal are only after looking out for themselves, they don;t care about the buyer and sure a hell don;t care about the seller

Same as always :(
"I've just been in a bad mood for 40 years"

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Centuries

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2009, 12:07:33 AM »
Sellers would have to make up the difference in a refund from another account, and buyers could find they do not have enough funds to pay for items from their Paypal account, if that is what they were intending to use as opposed to their Bank account, because Paypal would be holding a certain amount in reserve?

Have I interpreted that correctly? !

Does that mean Paypal would insist buyers had to transfer a certain amount into Paypal which would be held as  a "reserve" and be untouchable??

I must be mistaken. 
“I can't explain myself, I'm afraid, because I'm not myself, you see”  Lewis Carroll

Liisa-Sx

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2009, 03:23:17 AM »
Current figures on Paypals Rolling reserve scheme:

    * Active eBay users affected: 830,000
    * Active registered PayPal accounts affected: 548,000
    * Net total payment volume, HELD: $115,690,000
    * PayPal's revenue in this case would be the interest on $450 million per year. Plus incidental fees.

This is what PayPal considers to be "a very small percentage of 1% of users."
What they are NOT telling you is:
This is 1% for ONE quarter, based on eBay's 2008 SEC filing.  Worse case for sellers (best case for PayPal)

Additional note: A customer service representative said the amounts being held can range from 20-40% for 60-180 days.

Please also note when it was implemented in the US and UK there was NO notice given to the masses, and already a handful Australian paypal account owners have reported they have had funds "reserved".

So basically PayPal has instituted a way to keep 10 - 20 % of your profits indefinitely or until you decide to close your account, at which time you must wait in excess of 180 days to claim any money left in your reserve. (even though your account would be cleared of any transactions 135 days before that - since both PayPal and eBay require a dispute to be filed within 45 days)

According to a CNN article 3/08, Paypal made $10 Million a quarter in interest on your money, and that was LAST year.

As a final note, despite having this unlawful and ludicrous new Paypal implementation I can Guarantee we will still see the following statement from Paypal in the event of a purchase gone wrong.

We have decided in your favor, however, we were unable to recover any funds
from the seller's account. As stated in the PayPal User Agreement, recovery
of funds associated with a Buyer Complaint cannot be guaranteed.


I smell an awful lot of lawsuits looming, particularly from the land of the litigation.

They said there would be cake....and there WAS!

cueperkins

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2009, 08:56:24 AM »
Please also note when it was implemented in the US and UK there was NO notice given to the masses, and already a handful Australian paypal account owners have reported they have had funds "reserved".

Hi Liisa...I can't be certain on this, but I'm assuming that this type of imposition occurs in a similar way to OZ..i.e. when Ebay decided to impose Paypal only, they didn't ask, they went ahead with the changes, and NOTIFIED ACCC of their intentions...They were probably hoping that nobody would object, as they had done this very same thing a year before with not one negative submission against them...I think it had something to do with electronic products...Gralbow would know...must email him.

The trick being that if there was no objection to Paypal only, they would have been allowed to do that too...problem was, they weren't just up against consumers on that one...they were up against all the movers and shakers in the EFT industry and various Regulatory Govt Depts as well as consumers and traders....

We have decided in your favor, however, we were unable to recover any funds
from the seller's account. As stated in the PayPal User Agreement, recovery
of funds associated with a Buyer Complaint cannot be guaranteed.


This type of statement is something that should be instantly contested with FSO, F/trading, RBA and ACCC, highlighting their PR claims of consumer safety..i.e. being the safest?  Oh Really?  who can forget Feiler claiming that Paypal consumer safety and security, was equal to or better than the EFT code principles?..... Now that was entirely laughable once you've read their UA. 

However, In August 08, the treasury sought an agreement from all states in Oz to implement 'Unfair Consumer Contract' laws.  Paypal's UA is one such unfair contract, and if a consumer were to contest the above, even with F/trading, then it is highly likely that Paypal/Ebay would Lose that fight.  (See Evagora V Ebay re: Ebay is a Service Provider, and when they tried to rely on their UA, the tribunal shot them down in flames).  That case was in Victoria, who have had Unfair consumer contract laws since 2003...innovative yes?

It's coming...sooner or later, someone is going to take these barstards on, and set a new precedent....That's the whole thing about new consumer laws...they might exist, but consumers have to lodge complaints to get them working.


*r3830*

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2009, 09:07:04 AM »
Good to see you're still cutting edge on this Cupie.

Isn't it a strange thing - no mention of this development on the local Ebay forums whatsoever. Plenty being said on the US Paypal threads! Perhaps therein lies an interesting thought - as to who the people were who oversighted and supported others in these kind of matters! I trust that these same critics over there are capable of offering solutions..... without holidays offshore!

Liisa-Sx

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2009, 09:28:55 AM »
I also forgot to add that the 1% mentioned by paypal in the figures I quoted below do NOT include the numbers of Paypal users who do NOT use ebay and never have being affected by the "Holding rule".

There are paypal users that do not sell anywhere or buy anywhere using Paypal but merely use paypal as a money transfer platform.

IE: to send a family member a gift or to pay for an online game etc that have balances as low as $50 having this rolling reserve scheme applied to their accounts. one woman stated she wanted to send her son a $100 gift for a birthday and the holding was placed on her account to the tune of 10%, she cannot get the additional $10 from her account for 90 days.

How do Paypal justify doing so?

This holding rule is indiscriminate, buyers, sellers.. in fact anyone with a paypal account can succumb to the rule.

They said there would be cake....and there WAS!

cueperkins

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2009, 09:35:06 AM »
Hi Liisa, you just gave me an idea...I'll have a look at the RBA and Payment Systems Board to see if a 'Holding Rule' is kosha or naughty in Oz...I don't think so, they'd need permission, just like they did when they decided to impose the fees on traders and disallow them from passing them onto consumers....it's interesting isn't it?

Hey 'R', I never stopped being interested in the rebellion but I was getting trolled for even mentioning ACCC for a while there...it appears that some people get offended with fact and reality...lol

*CountessA*

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2009, 10:30:11 AM »
Take note when the words "Buyer Complaint Policy" are used. It means there is a simple (albeit frustrating and time-consuming) solution: call PayPal and tell them that the wrong policy was applied.

The Buyer Protection Policy is applicable to (most) eBay purchases using PayPal.* The Buyer Complaint Policy is applicable to off-eBay purchases using PayPal.

* excluding pre-sale items not guaranteed to be sent within 20 days of purchase; cars (including motorised scooters and a host of other vehicles); intangibles (licences, digitally delivered goods, etc.); airline tickets; services; real estate; businesses for sale; items that don't comply with PayPal's or eBay's policies.

For your informed interest, the following might be worth bookmarking:
 
Quote
Pre-sale listings are those that describe items for sale that are not in the possession of the seller at the time of the listing.

eBay permits pre-sale listings only on a limited basis. The seller must ensure that the item will be shipped within 20 days from receiving payment. The seller must clearly indicate within the listing that it's a pre-sale item with postage no later than 20 days after payment, including the date on which the item will be available to post. This text must be no less than the default font size of the eBay Sell Your Item form. Currently, the default font size is HTML font size 3.
- http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/policies/pre-sale.html

http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/sell/category-exclusions.html

PayPal Buyer Protection Policy and Buyer Complaint Policy
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

tellomon

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2009, 10:52:05 AM »
PayPal Hold
Aug 31, 2009 9:41 AM


I am just a small customer who sells a few times a year. I just found out that PayPal holds our payments now. That means I must pay for shipping, and I don't really know that I will receive my payment from the buyer.

This is not how I want to do business. I'm would like to find another auction or selling platform to use. eBay is just for the big sellers. I don't care to buy or sell from them anymore.

Anyone know of a good place for the small guy to buy/sell stuff?


http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Seller-Central/Paypal-Hold/520147715
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*barny*

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2009, 11:09:17 AM »
Good to see you're still cutting edge on this Cupie.

Isn't it a strange thing - no mention of this development on the local Ebay forums whatsoever. Plenty being said on the US Paypal threads! Perhaps therein lies an interesting thought - as to who the people were who oversighted and supported others in these kind of matters! I trust that these same critics over there are capable of offering solutions..... without holidays offshore!

No, not strange at all... When the "new" forum setup was implemented, one of the rules was that there is no criticism of eBay or Paypal allowed.... If there was any comment on this on the ebay boards, it would be instantly deleted, with appropriate slaps.

Cheers
If you try to fail, and succeed, what have you done ??

**cupie**

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2009, 01:08:15 PM »
Good to see you're still cutting edge on this Cupie.

Isn't it a strange thing - no mention of this development on the local Ebay forums whatsoever. Plenty being said on the US Paypal threads! Perhaps therein lies an interesting thought - as to who the people were who oversighted and supported others in these kind of matters! I trust that these same critics over there are capable of offering solutions..... without holidays offshore!

No, not strange at all... When the "new" forum setup was implemented, one of the rules was that there is no criticism of eBay or Paypal allowed.... If there was any comment on this on the ebay boards, it would be instantly deleted, with appropriate slaps.

Cheers



tellomon

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2009, 01:22:37 PM »
Plenty being said on the US Paypal threads!

http://forums.ebay.com/db2/forum/Paypal/97
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**cupie**

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2009, 02:49:53 PM »
Just having a peek now Tello...


Not very happy campers are they?  Why can't they organise themselves as we Aussies all did during the rebellion?...there's so many more of you than there are of us...we won our battle, maybe not the war, but we kicked Ebay's arse on Paypus only....... and I can guarantee you that Aussies won't take lightly to a 'bond', and neither will the RBA or payment systems board who regulate this type of corporate thuggery !!  Aussies must be born scrappers !!!  lol

*CountessA*

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2009, 03:00:26 PM »
Our legislation is more... well, user-friendly, I think. Australians are also politically cynical and quite frequently reasonably well informed about legislation. There is more information available for the average consumer and small business in Australia than there is (or seems to be) for the average American consumer and small business.

You're right, too - Australian culture values the "scrapper".
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

tellomon

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2009, 03:11:42 PM »
Why can't they [American eBayers] organise themselves as we Aussies all did during the rebellion?

In a word: Apathy.
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tellomon

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2009, 03:19:01 PM »
That pic is not 'topic-specific'.

Ya wonk!
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**cupie**

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Re: Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.
« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2009, 03:34:59 PM »
Yeah Yib...what he said, ya wonk....gord I've got a headache.....