Oz Round Table
The Oz Round Table boards => The Round Table => Topic started by: Liisa-Sx on September 06, 2009, 11:44:38 PM
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A poster by the name of howmanyhorses on the ebay forums has an interesting site Called "Red Ink Diary" http://200westmain.com/redinkdiary/?p=2193 (http://200westmain.com/redinkdiary/?p=2193)
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howmanyhorses (880)
6/09/2009 03:03
I would think it is doubtful that PayPal would get away with this, or even attempt it in Australia.
You can read about this program here, http://200westmain.com/redinkdiary/?p=2193 (http://200westmain.com/redinkdiary/?p=2193) lots of links to related articles at the bottom of the post.
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Below is the standard letter apparently being sent out to some sellers, afaik currently this is not in Australia, but you know PP, if they Build it, it will come lol:
Dear XXXXXXX
Your business is important to us, and we are working hard to provide
an easy, fast and secure payment service to you and your customers
while keeping our prices competitive. We're also committed to clearly
communicating changes to our policies and procedures. To that end, we
are writing to inform you of a change to your PayPal account, which
will take effect 30 days from the date of this email.
Beginning 09/30/2009, a small percentage of the total payments you
receive will be held temporarily as a reserve in your account. This
small reserve amount helps to ensure that funds are available to cover
payment reversals or buyer chargebacks, if you do not have a
sufficient PayPal account balance and do not provide the funds to do
so.
A reserve is like a security deposit for your PayPal account and is
standard practice in the payments industry, especially for retail
segments like General where there is a higher-than-average risk of
reversals or chargebacks. This does not mean that you have done
anything wrong. We are requiring a small reserve in your account
because you sell in a category that has a higher risk of reversals and
chargebacks.
Your reserve amount will be 30% of the total payments you receive,
which will be held on a rolling 90-day schedule. That means 30% of the
money you take in each day will be held in your account, and then made
available for withdrawal 90 days later.
For example, if you receive $2,000 every 90 days into your PayPal
account, then a reserve amount of about $1800 would be required on a
rolling 90-day period. In other words, about $20 would be held in
reserve each day, then released 90 days later.
If you are a PayPal Money Market Fund customer, you will still earn
interest on your total balance while your money is in reserve. Click
here for more information or to enroll in the PayPal Money Market
Fund.
We recognize this is a change in the way we do business with you. By
requiring some merchants to reserve money in their accounts, we're
able to lower our own costs. This helps us to continue providing
competitive pricing for all sellers who use PayPal. NB:Hah!
If you have any questions about this change, please call us at
1-877-729-7252. We appreciate your business and look forward to a
continued partnership.
Sincerely,
PayPal
They do dream up some doozies don't they, so my question is, if they are witholding seller funds to "fund" the paypal protection scheme with sellers own funds, is the PP protection scheme legal? as in my eyes there is No scheme, it's a seller funded mandatory policy.
Thoughts?
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Uh-Oh!
:wtf:
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I'd like to establish the veracity of that. Liisa, fascinating find - we should follow that up!
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Al Capone could have learned a lot from these guys !!!
Talk about short term money market fraud and protection racket!!!
90 days !!! Unbelievable !!!!
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why would they need to keep it 90 days if no dispute had been registered dont you only have 45 days to lodge a dispute?
and if they did insist on holding for 90 days surely they would be compelled to pay interest !!!
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...surely they would be compelled to pay interest !!!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:quack:
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I'd like to establish the veracity of that. Liisa, fascinating find - we should follow that up!
Hi! In response to your query Countess, here lies the words directly from PayPals mouth, a certain Bill Clarke an analyst on PayPals risk team on their Official Paypal Blog site.
https://www.thepaypalblog.com/2009/06/seller-reserves/ (https://www.thepaypalblog.com/2009/06/seller-reserves/)
it is a VERY interesting read.
BTW: PP has implimented this with NO notice to anyone prior.
One poster asked a very interesting and valid question:
"So what happens if I sell something for $1000, paypal “reserves” 10%, and the buyer subequently wants to return the item for a refund?
Knowing, as an ebay seller, I have no choice in the current climate but to take a return, where is that reserve money so I can make a full volantary refund? Do I have to take that $100 out of other funds while paypal retains it for 60 days?"
Another posters comment left me dumbfounded as it appears ANY paypal account can be targeted for NO reason, you do NOT have to be an ebay seller.
I have had $170 embezzled out of my account by PayPal under the guise of rolling reserves. Yes, I know that they will eventually put it back, but isn’t that every embezzler’s plan?
I am not an Ebay trader. I don’t shop or sell on e-bay. The explanation I received when I protested this was that with the economy being what it is that credit card companies, yada yada yada. Even the guy on the phone agreed that there was no reason to do this to my account.
If they don’t reverse this I will simply use Google Checkout to bill my retainer clients. I don’t mind paying fees or having reserves when I am properly INFORMED about them at the time of signing the service agreement. What I won’t tolerate is having a perfectly clean account that is several years old have money simply taken out of it because they decide to do so.
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Also by wanting to hold 30 % of your funds are they suggesting that 1 in every 3.33 paypal transactions turns to custard ???? if thats the case they shouldnt be allowed to continue to operate !!!
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Here's a vision of things to come:
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/ODD%20Stuff/LynchMobMotivator.jpg)
(Not a spam post)
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Here is another VERY interesting Official site this one is for Ebay, read and weep, these are the people toying with your livelyhood and how you shop on ebay.
http://developer.ebay.com/community/blog/ (http://developer.ebay.com/community/blog/)
If you hunt around the site you will find some scary new apps in developement, including some fabulous ways for them to data mine, some in development stages some existing currently.
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Interesting... could be time for another rebellion?.. I'm up for it !.... bring it on!..what ever it takes.. No Prisoners this time!
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See what happens when I get bored lol, I go digging, nothing beats boredom like finding a tidbit, that links to a bigger tidbit.. that uncovers some interesting artifacts.....keep digging and who knows what can be excavated ;D
Paypal home site explanation:
https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/main.jsp;jsessionid=KgTfhxG9yG3f1N9GVCf5TMLvyMpjVfcCwfjx5nT55SnC2pnHTLc1!-504723214?t=solutionTab&ft=homeTab&ps=&solutionId=185251&locale=en_US&_dyncharset=UTF-8&countrycode=US&cmd=_help&serverInstance=9003 (https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/main.jsp;jsessionid=KgTfhxG9yG3f1N9GVCf5TMLvyMpjVfcCwfjx5nT55SnC2pnHTLc1!-504723214?t=solutionTab&ft=homeTab&ps=&solutionId=185251&locale=en_US&_dyncharset=UTF-8&countrycode=US&cmd=_help&serverInstance=9003)
It has hit the UK already also:
http://tamebay.com/2009/02/paypal-reserves-heres-whats-really-happening.html (http://tamebay.com/2009/02/paypal-reserves-heres-whats-really-happening.html)
Ebay.com users not happy jan.....
http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Paypal/Paypals-Quotrolling-Reservequot/520138949 (http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Paypal/Paypals-Quotrolling-Reservequot/520138949)
Paypal users Buyers, sellers and everyone else also not happy:
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/online-auction-info/917685/ (http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/online-auction-info/917685/)
BTW... You ONLY earn interest on the held funds if you sign up for their money market option, now this may or may not be all well and good considering they do NOT inform you before holding the funds, they just do it randomly at their own discretion.
another plethora of disgruntled users:
http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/running_small_business/archives/2009/08/paypals_reserve.html (http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/running_small_business/archives/2009/08/paypals_reserve.html)
It seems that PP in fact DO intend to place every single Ebay user, buyer and seller alike on to the "Paypal Rolling reserve" scheme in due course.
Now I'd like to throw this out there as food for thought... If PayPal go belly up, what do you think will happen to the millions of dollars "held in reserve" ??? Bon apetite!
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keep digging and who knows what can be excavated?
Crab People.
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/ODD%20Stuff/Crab_people2.jpg)
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Interesting... could be time for another rebellion?.. I'm up for it !.... bring it on!..what ever it takes.. No Prisoners this time!
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/ODD%20Stuff/Fearless_Leader.jpg)
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Check this interesting tidbit via --> www.Tosback.org <-- a Terms of Service tracker, click the link back there <-- in this sentance to see just how often Paypal change their Tos its amazing lol
Ebay user agreement changed by stealth, before and after comparisons.
http://www.tosback.org/diff.php?vid=770 (http://www.tosback.org/diff.php?vid=770)
This article expands and explains on what is shown in the link above:
http://blog.auctionbytes.com/cgi-bin/blog/blog.pl?/pl/2009/8/1250620643.html (http://blog.auctionbytes.com/cgi-bin/blog/blog.pl?/pl/2009/8/1250620643.html)
Read the reply comments below the main article for further insight.
I'll call it quits for tonight as I have added a LOT of info to absorb, I do however have several bookmarks to continue on with in the next week, so stay tuned.
this one is just for fun, but very real lol....
Need a job?
http://www.ebay.jobs/jobs/customer-solutions-agent-job-lavista-nebraska-ne-270218-71.html (http://www.ebay.jobs/jobs/customer-solutions-agent-job-lavista-nebraska-ne-270218-71.html)
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Lisa you are a gold mine :)
I personally thank you.
Never let a tyrant get a foothold
Ubb KEELHAUL TIME approaching
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This is really the only adequate response to PayPal in the light of this - :roughend:
And now something practical needs to be done.
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A chewy morsel from the ^ auctionbytes link:
I had a customer in Brazil buy something and immediately ask for feedback within 5 minutes. RED FLAG 1
I tell him after he receives his product and is happy and leaves me feedback I will do the same to complete the transaction.
GUESS WHAT?
It never arrives! Ok sure
It was under 20 dollars and not worth paying extra for INT tracking so not a huge disaster.
SOOO...I get curious and check his previous purchases via recent feedback and completed, I contact the sellers of all those items to see if he is doing the same to them. 8 other sellers responded back to me and said he had opened Paypal claims against them for item not recieved.
Same MO across the board..buyer asked all sellers for feedback immediately after purchase. Some of them did leave him feedback in advance. Buyer never left anyone feedback ever.
So in less than a 30 day period one buyer in Brazil filed non receipt claims against me and 8 other very reputable sellers I can confirm and Paypal doesn't see anything at all fishy here?
Paypal very kindly refunded him in full from all our 9 accounts and he is still "shopping" as of this day. He profited approx. 425.00 worth of free merchandise from those 9 free transactions that I know of. I'm SURE there are much more today.
I guess buying on ebay is the new way to make money there?
Why are there no records kept or no limitataions as to how many claims one thief can file?
Have a Nice Day.
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NOW THIS IS JUST STUPID !!!!
Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 3pm PT
Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 12pm PT
Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 11am PT
Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 10am PT
Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 8am PT
Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 7am PT
Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 6am PT
Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 2am PT
Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 1am PT
Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 2 around 12am PT
Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 1 around 11pm PT
Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 1 around 6pm PT
Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 1 around 5pm PT
Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 1 around 3pm PT
Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 1 around 1pm PT
Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 1 around 11am PT
Paypal
changed its User Agreement
September 1 around 9am PT
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Lisa you are a gold mine :)
I personally thank you.
Never let a tyrant get a foothold
Ubb KEELHAUL TIME approaching
lol thanks poddy, I used to be a research assistant many moons ago! LOL
Now I really DO need to go get some sleep !!!! ZzzzzzZZzzz
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Keelhauling, keelhauling, someone mention a keelhauling? I'm ready, when & where, I've got the rope.
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I don't think they'd get away with that here, unless RBA gave it the seal of approval, and I don't think that's likely, but then, we've seen them revert to cranial rectal inversion syndrome previously.....
What I find interesting is the imposition of a 'bond' for sellers in certain categories...basically, this is so they can avoid having to dip into their own funds to refund consumers, when dodgy sellers, (they don't bother verifying), do the runner. In other words, it's just another duck and weave around adequate verification and fraud prevention yet again.
Anyway....exactly which financial institutions require this? I don't have a minimum balance in my Bank Accounts imposed and nor do I have to keep my CC in credit?...in fact, it tends to work the other way?. Countess, do you have to keep a security deposit of that amount to have a merchant account?
We recognize this is a change in the way we do business with you. By
requiring some merchants to reserve money in their accounts, we're
able to lower our own costs. This helps us to continue providing
competitive pricing for all sellers who use PayPal.
Firstly, sellers who use Paypal, have no bloody choice in the issue.....secondly, how do they know they are dealing with merchants & businesses, if they don't bother verifying if they are in fact merchants & businesses?
And finally, they admit that they DO have a business relationship with sellers? How convenient, but at least it's in writing...lol...they admit it...they do BUSINESS with sellers on Ebay and as such, they should be compliant with the TPA...but they're not are they?
It goes back to the Unfair contract and misuse of market power debate I posted on the RT way back...they are literally manipulating small business, via a one sided dominant contract, and being the MONOPOLY, they know that sellers can't move their interests elsewhere...it's classic anti competitive conduct and misuse of market power on their part !!!
I only wish sellers would band together and complain to ACCC en mass about Ebay's dominance over small businesses online.
I'd be very happy to mount a mass complaint to ACCC for small business if they impose this rubbish here...it would be worth seeing the little guys stand up and be counted against a dominant thug.
Hey Poddy, that's what I mean about dominant one sided contracts where consumers and businesses have absolutely no right to object or negotiate to constant contractual changes being imposed...The TPA details this issue quite well....contracts can't just be changed between corporate monopolies and small business without some level of negotiation, and yet EBay/Paypal do, it all the time because nobody stands up to them.
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This also seems to be an open admission that Paypal is not the be all, end all, when it comes to consumer chargebacks.....i.e. that it's purely dependent on the seller having funds in their account.....hence, illusory protection is all that is offered and Paypal are lying to consumers by promoting up to $20,000.00 protection now aren't they?
So...what their PR should say is that we offer up to $20,000.00 protection if the seller has that much in his account If not, so sad, too bad????...
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Very interesting. If Ebay was foolish (or greedy) enough to bring this ruling in here in Australia it could be an opportunity for aggrieved sellers to go back to the ACCC and lodge an objection to the mandatory listing of Paypal. The reason given would be that Paypal must be listed as a payment option and, 30% of all Paypal payments received will be held for ninety days. No interest will be paid to the seller & the money held for ninety days cannot be touched by the seller.
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No, my merchant account CERTAINLY doesn't require any such thing!
Each country of course has different legislation, and it may be that where there's a loophole, PayPal will take advantage of it. There's also the issue that legislation is one thing, and the power to enforce it is another.
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Here's a vision of things to come:
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/ODD%20Stuff/LynchMobMotivator.jpg)
(Not a spam post)
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
What he said !!
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I heard that!
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Nothing says "due process of law" like torches and pitchforks.....
(http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp125/cueperkins/monty_python_witch-701441.jpg)
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I never seriously believed that anybody accepted the "buyer protection" guarantees on face value. So now, the seller is the anchor of maintaining Paypal's glorious promises!!!! :spam: :sick:
Ubbrd........ Get the guns out! It's time we went hunting.... again!
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I'm with you R numbers, armed & dangerous.
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Ubbrd - the only thing I've fired is a .22 - but I'm ready to move up to something bigger.
Anything you could loan me, with a bit of tuition perhaps?
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Brumby. I reckon we should start you off at the deep end, the Barret 50 cal.
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"At this point financial institutions are about as trustworthy in their practices as the Corleones – perhaps less so – so it would be a good move on Paypal’s part to put itself on record as a financial institution that can be trusted not to put the consequences of bad company decisions on the backs of customers."
And This comment.....
"We just got hit with 5% rolling reserves and it’s driving me crazy, our gross margins are about 12% with expenses around 8% which leaves us 4% net, we do about $500,00 per month and it’s draining our capital, no matter what I say or did, it’s like talking to a wall, I even signed a personal guarantee, provided purchase invoices etc. etc. with no luck, they wanna hold over $100,000 in reserve for 90 days.
I bet you PayPal wouldn’t do this if Google checkout was integrated into eBay."
Yep.... looks like the changes meet with the pleasure of the users.....
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Alright the 90 day holding period is because a CC transaction can be charged back within 90 days - paypal only 45 days
What I find interesting in the allowance to collect interest on the funds they hold - I do beleive that is illegal UNLESS they belong to some sort of Australian scheme, or they could be considered illegal under money laudering scheme (not 100% sure) but fairly sure.
Red-Ink-Diary are renowned for gripes against paypal - often correct and often justified, so nothing wrong there
I do remember the withholdong of funds being mentioned when the last raft a changed went through. I can't remember in what context though :(
Paypal are only after looking out for themselves, they don;t care about the buyer and sure a hell don;t care about the seller
Same as always :(
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Sellers would have to make up the difference in a refund from another account, and buyers could find they do not have enough funds to pay for items from their Paypal account, if that is what they were intending to use as opposed to their Bank account, because Paypal would be holding a certain amount in reserve?
Have I interpreted that correctly? !
Does that mean Paypal would insist buyers had to transfer a certain amount into Paypal which would be held as a "reserve" and be untouchable??
I must be mistaken.
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Current figures on Paypals Rolling reserve scheme:
* Active eBay users affected: 830,000
* Active registered PayPal accounts affected: 548,000
* Net total payment volume, HELD: $115,690,000
* PayPal's revenue in this case would be the interest on $450 million per year. Plus incidental fees.
This is what PayPal considers to be "a very small percentage of 1% of users."
What they are NOT telling you is:
This is 1% for ONE quarter, based on eBay's 2008 SEC filing. Worse case for sellers (best case for PayPal)
Additional note: A customer service representative said the amounts being held can range from 20-40% for 60-180 days.
Please also note when it was implemented in the US and UK there was NO notice given to the masses, and already a handful Australian paypal account owners have reported they have had funds "reserved".
So basically PayPal has instituted a way to keep 10 - 20 % of your profits indefinitely or until you decide to close your account, at which time you must wait in excess of 180 days to claim any money left in your reserve. (even though your account would be cleared of any transactions 135 days before that - since both PayPal and eBay require a dispute to be filed within 45 days)
According to a CNN article 3/08, Paypal made $10 Million a quarter in interest on your money, and that was LAST year.
As a final note, despite having this unlawful and ludicrous new Paypal implementation I can Guarantee we will still see the following statement from Paypal in the event of a purchase gone wrong.
We have decided in your favor, however, we were unable to recover any funds
from the seller's account. As stated in the PayPal User Agreement, recovery
of funds associated with a Buyer Complaint cannot be guaranteed.
I smell an awful lot of lawsuits looming, particularly from the land of the litigation.
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Please also note when it was implemented in the US and UK there was NO notice given to the masses, and already a handful Australian paypal account owners have reported they have had funds "reserved".
Hi Liisa...I can't be certain on this, but I'm assuming that this type of imposition occurs in a similar way to OZ..i.e. when Ebay decided to impose Paypal only, they didn't ask, they went ahead with the changes, and NOTIFIED ACCC of their intentions...They were probably hoping that nobody would object, as they had done this very same thing a year before with not one negative submission against them...I think it had something to do with electronic products...Gralbow would know...must email him.
The trick being that if there was no objection to Paypal only, they would have been allowed to do that too...problem was, they weren't just up against consumers on that one...they were up against all the movers and shakers in the EFT industry and various Regulatory Govt Depts as well as consumers and traders....
We have decided in your favor, however, we were unable to recover any funds
from the seller's account. As stated in the PayPal User Agreement, recovery
of funds associated with a Buyer Complaint cannot be guaranteed.
This type of statement is something that should be instantly contested with FSO, F/trading, RBA and ACCC, highlighting their PR claims of consumer safety..i.e. being the safest? Oh Really? who can forget Feiler claiming that Paypal consumer safety and security, was equal to or better than the EFT code principles?..... Now that was entirely laughable once you've read their UA.
However, In August 08, the treasury sought an agreement from all states in Oz to implement 'Unfair Consumer Contract' laws. Paypal's UA is one such unfair contract, and if a consumer were to contest the above, even with F/trading, then it is highly likely that Paypal/Ebay would Lose that fight. (See Evagora V Ebay re: Ebay is a Service Provider, and when they tried to rely on their UA, the tribunal shot them down in flames). That case was in Victoria, who have had Unfair consumer contract laws since 2003...innovative yes?
It's coming...sooner or later, someone is going to take these barstards on, and set a new precedent....That's the whole thing about new consumer laws...they might exist, but consumers have to lodge complaints to get them working.
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Good to see you're still cutting edge on this Cupie.
Isn't it a strange thing - no mention of this development on the local Ebay forums whatsoever. Plenty being said on the US Paypal threads! Perhaps therein lies an interesting thought - as to who the people were who oversighted and supported others in these kind of matters! I trust that these same critics over there are capable of offering solutions..... without holidays offshore!
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I also forgot to add that the 1% mentioned by paypal in the figures I quoted below do NOT include the numbers of Paypal users who do NOT use ebay and never have being affected by the "Holding rule".
There are paypal users that do not sell anywhere or buy anywhere using Paypal but merely use paypal as a money transfer platform.
IE: to send a family member a gift or to pay for an online game etc that have balances as low as $50 having this rolling reserve scheme applied to their accounts. one woman stated she wanted to send her son a $100 gift for a birthday and the holding was placed on her account to the tune of 10%, she cannot get the additional $10 from her account for 90 days.
How do Paypal justify doing so?
This holding rule is indiscriminate, buyers, sellers.. in fact anyone with a paypal account can succumb to the rule.
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Hi Liisa, you just gave me an idea...I'll have a look at the RBA and Payment Systems Board to see if a 'Holding Rule' is kosha or naughty in Oz...I don't think so, they'd need permission, just like they did when they decided to impose the fees on traders and disallow them from passing them onto consumers....it's interesting isn't it?
Hey 'R', I never stopped being interested in the rebellion but I was getting trolled for even mentioning ACCC for a while there...it appears that some people get offended with fact and reality...lol
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Take note when the words "Buyer Complaint Policy" are used. It means there is a simple (albeit frustrating and time-consuming) solution: call PayPal and tell them that the wrong policy was applied.
The Buyer Protection Policy is applicable to (most) eBay purchases using PayPal.* The Buyer Complaint Policy is applicable to off-eBay purchases using PayPal.
* excluding pre-sale items not guaranteed to be sent within 20 days of purchase; cars (including motorised scooters and a host of other vehicles); intangibles (licences, digitally delivered goods, etc.); airline tickets; services; real estate; businesses for sale; items that don't comply with PayPal's or eBay's policies.
For your informed interest, the following might be worth bookmarking:
Pre-sale listings are those that describe items for sale that are not in the possession of the seller at the time of the listing.
eBay permits pre-sale listings only on a limited basis. The seller must ensure that the item will be shipped within 20 days from receiving payment. The seller must clearly indicate within the listing that it's a pre-sale item with postage no later than 20 days after payment, including the date on which the item will be available to post. This text must be no less than the default font size of the eBay Sell Your Item form. Currently, the default font size is HTML font size 3.
- http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/policies/pre-sale.html
http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/sell/category-exclusions.html
PayPal Buyer Protection Policy and Buyer Complaint Policy (https://www.paypal.com/au/au/cgi-bin/webscr?PPREDIRECT=d14JEcdNcFIHY4ChV7jO9dHp1AA4-aV-H9xpjLfhE7421Qo3MDzfp0PDxDIjWgOIkro1IXnBEY165ICNknTKPImGVcBV8R8ZH54aA3giqT3mSLK9&dispatch=5885d80a13c0db1fca8cb0621aa94a5fc157eca86dc6e6ad6a70b60fab90381b)
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PayPal Hold
Aug 31, 2009 9:41 AM
I am just a small customer who sells a few times a year. I just found out that PayPal holds our payments now. That means I must pay for shipping, and I don't really know that I will receive my payment from the buyer.
This is not how I want to do business. I'm would like to find another auction or selling platform to use. eBay is just for the big sellers. I don't care to buy or sell from them anymore.
Anyone know of a good place for the small guy to buy/sell stuff?
http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Seller-Central/Paypal-Hold/520147715 (http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Seller-Central/Paypal-Hold/520147715)
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Good to see you're still cutting edge on this Cupie.
Isn't it a strange thing - no mention of this development on the local Ebay forums whatsoever. Plenty being said on the US Paypal threads! Perhaps therein lies an interesting thought - as to who the people were who oversighted and supported others in these kind of matters! I trust that these same critics over there are capable of offering solutions..... without holidays offshore!
No, not strange at all... When the "new" forum setup was implemented, one of the rules was that there is no criticism of eBay or Paypal allowed.... If there was any comment on this on the ebay boards, it would be instantly deleted, with appropriate slaps.
Cheers
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Good to see you're still cutting edge on this Cupie.
Isn't it a strange thing - no mention of this development on the local Ebay forums whatsoever. Plenty being said on the US Paypal threads! Perhaps therein lies an interesting thought - as to who the people were who oversighted and supported others in these kind of matters! I trust that these same critics over there are capable of offering solutions..... without holidays offshore!
No, not strange at all... When the "new" forum setup was implemented, one of the rules was that there is no criticism of eBay or Paypal allowed.... If there was any comment on this on the ebay boards, it would be instantly deleted, with appropriate slaps.
Cheers
(http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp125/cueperkins/Warning_sign_70_by_hjkiddk-1-1.jpg)
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Plenty being said on the US Paypal threads!
http://forums.ebay.com/db2/forum/Paypal/97 (http://forums.ebay.com/db2/forum/Paypal/97)
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Just having a peek now Tello...
Not very happy campers are they? Why can't they organise themselves as we Aussies all did during the rebellion?...there's so many more of you than there are of us...we won our battle, maybe not the war, but we kicked Ebay's arse on Paypus only....... and I can guarantee you that Aussies won't take lightly to a 'bond', and neither will the RBA or payment systems board who regulate this type of corporate thuggery !! Aussies must be born scrappers !!! lol
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Our legislation is more... well, user-friendly, I think. Australians are also politically cynical and quite frequently reasonably well informed about legislation. There is more information available for the average consumer and small business in Australia than there is (or seems to be) for the average American consumer and small business.
You're right, too - Australian culture values the "scrapper".
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Why can't they [American eBayers] organise themselves as we Aussies all did during the rebellion?
In a word: Apathy.
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That pic is not 'topic-specific'.
Ya wonk!
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Yeah Yib...what he said, ya wonk....gord I've got a headache.....
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Another kick in the A$$ From PayPal
Excerpt from a non seller complaint.
How about this one.. I am NOT an eBay seller. I only buy on eBay. I have NEVER sold anything on eBay. I just got hit with a 20% rolling reserve for 90 days because someone partially refunded my account due to damaged in shipping issue. I have NEVER sold anything on eBay so now if I get refunded for anything Paypal will be holding 20% of the refund. Sometimes I have accepted Paypal payments for things outside of eBay over the years like I loaned a friend $50 for a Baseball ticket and he paid me on back on his payday. So now I can't even do this without Paypal holding my money. Bad enough that they get a large % plus a PROCESSING fee for each transaction. When my friend paid me back the $50 I only ended up with $46 and change. IS THIS LEGAL its not like there is any reason for them to hold a refund! For that matter there can't be a chargeback without a sale, what is their excuse. I think we all have a class action suit here. This can not be legal to keep money that is has nothing to do with an eBay sale or can it!!! THIS appears to me to be FRAUD. PAYPAL is pretending that returned funds from a sale are an actual sale by me. I am not in business I only use Paypal to purchase items so if the seller has a policy to refund within 7 days this means Paypal can take a % of the refund and use this for 90 days to draw interest. I think this must be contested. ANY other buyers that have experienced this? I think Paypal intends to hold 20% of all sales in the future looks like they intend to take from both buyers and sellers.
So now PayPal also take a FEE to grace you with a rolling reserve.
OK now - Paypal state if you sign up for the "PayPal Money market scheme" you will earn interest on the funds they Hold under the Holding rule..... But beware...............
Paypal Money Market Screw Up, Dividends What Are Dividends?
Paypal Money Market Screw Up, Dividends What Are Dividends?So, anyone who happens to have a Paypal Money Market account—you may want to check your dividends for last month. For some odd reason, I have heard from many, many people that claim to have gotten completely shafted by Paypal in this regard for last month.
I don’t know if someone just missed a decimal point, but I’ve heard many people go from somewhere close to 5% at the beginning of the month drop down to less than 1% by the end of the month(a few have said 0.6%). Sure, to people with only $50.00 in the account, it may not mean much, but I know for a fact many users were coming up more than a few bucks short on last month’s dividend. And hey, over time, that does add up.
Apparently, Paypal Customer Service knows about this and admits “many people got shorted last month.” They have also been telling users that the problem “should be” fixed and you “should see” the money in the next 24 hours. Yeah. Maybe if you take the time to complain and sit on hold for an hour, then it “should be” fixed….
Remember people, unlike banks, the Paypal Money Market is not FDIC insured. I would recommend sticking with someone who is FDIC insured. I guess a few bucks here and there really add up for Paypal….way to go with the consumer trust!
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Boycot...world wide...every single user of this atrocity...it's the only way... our politicians have no testies...therefore no confidence from me... Nuf said.
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Liisa,
Did this comment come off the US Site?
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Liisa,
Did this comment come off the US Site?
Yes it did come off a U.S forum (non ebay).. I have been watching several sites closely Both in the UK and the US and the cries of outrage are starting to reach fever pitch.
ALSO more cases are surfacing whereby if a Seller's Supplier gets their Funds held, the SELLER is linked via Paypal to the Supplier and will ALSO have their funds held... Guilt by association says PayPal.
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Guilt???? Guilty of what????
Now, if Paypal isn't a bank, (as we have been reminded) but they are regarded as a Service Provider here..... Where's Cupie?? She is very aware of the arrangements within Aus. How would this arrangement affect international sales - where I initiate the purchase?
Sounds like Yib may well be suggesting a correct course!
Isn't it wonderful that our criticism here of whatever doesn't come under the control of the dark side!!!!!
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The holding rule is nothing more than a grab for account holder's cash for Paypal to use on the short term money market, they will, and do use any excuse they can think of to enable them to do so, on any and all accounts.
You only have to take a look at how many times a week their ToS changes, they lie as we all know and will continue to do so as long as they are not held to task by anyone.
They are making it up as they go along.
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(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv277/area_51_bucket/untitled-3.gif)
[click]
(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv277/area_51_bucket/th_untitled-3.gif) (http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv277/area_51_bucket/untitled-3.gif)
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(http://i623.photobucket.com/albums/tt317/djjustinwin/DONATE.jpg)
PayPal
Top 3 PayPal Questions
Can PayPal hold my money with no explanation? The answer is YES.
Can PayPal freeze my account for no reason? The answer is YES.
Can PayPal take money out of my account without my knowledge?
The answer is YES.
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Hah ! here's a blast from the past... I could never work out where the hand was inserted?...
(http://www.theinquirer.net/img/2443/Making-Ebay-even-richer.jpg)
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Awwww its widdle Smithy
how i miss thee
a true joke makers paradise that fellow
BOZO
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Hi 'R'...I'm around.....no.....I doubt Paypal could do this type of thing here unless RBA gave them the seal of approval...and I can't see that happening given the last fiasco..
I have to do some research to find out who polices entities like Paypal. i.e. when they refuse to provide adequate security or indemnity to account holders and yet, promote their payment system as the safest, whilst forcing all Ebay consumers to place themselves at risk joining it???....Just think about that for a minute....none of us want to be forced to use this joke of payment system because it places all of us at risk with its bullshit idea of security and its 'reverse all imaginable liability' User Agreement. The simple fact is...we have no choice, we're strong armed into it, and we ALL know it's unsafe, complicated and frustrating !!! I for one, have avoided even joining paypal....and it's been disadvantaging not being able to sell, given my rural location, but NOTHING will make me gamble with fraud or identity theft....Paypal is a joke.
APRA have nothing to do with policing Paypal, even though they license them...they're more concerned with prudential management, and let me tell you Paypal's guarantee is laughable 5% of stored value liabilities, which means, if they go under, they only have to give account holders 5% of what they had in their account? Feeling safe yet?....lmao. This issue however, if it was brought in here, would definitely have ramifications to Paypal's prudential management..i.e. imposing a 30% bond on account holders, when Paypal themselves would only have to refund account holders 5% of that amount if they went belly up?...huh?...what if the amount you had to keep in your account was 200.00 for argument sake....Paypal force you to maintain that balance...and yet if they go belly up, they'd only have to give you back $10.00??? Sound fair? (just thinking out loud - the issue is complicated).
Perhaps ASIC would have some jurisdiction because they administer the Corporations Act, and the EFT Code.....someone has to be responsible for the lies Paypal is telling consumers and the complete absence of security against, and indemnity for, account holders in any fraud or hacking issue.
Yes....Ebay ARE a Service Provider (as is Paypal) and any case before a Fair Trade or consumer affairs tribunal would reinforce that FACT over and over again.....no money has to change hands for this relationship to exist.
Surely the US and UK have similar regulatory bodies they could appeal to as consumers?
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Cupie,
I also followed the fine examples set by yourself and Liisa in doing some reading. The US site is up in arms. Thought I might share a few things locally..... (off the US site: Paypal)
My paypal account was limited 6 months ago, and I had paypal lock the account, I looked at my checking account today and paypal did an ACH withdraw of 6300.00!!!! WFT!!!! I notified my bank to let them know money was stolen out of my account through an unauthorized transaction by paypal and they told me that paypal claims that I authorized the transaction!. I had to file a police report against Paypal in my city, and then give it to my bank. My bank says it's going to stop the funds and reverse it back to my account within 7 days. I was out of town for almost 60 days and looked at my bank records, seems as tho paypal has been withdrawing about 8.00 a day out of my account also. I also included this in the police report. Paypal went into my account without permission and took funds!... Beware, if you close your account, change your account numbers also!.
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Today I just logged into my paypal to discover a new crooked act they have enacted. It is called Rolling Reserve. Basically what they are doing is taking 10% of our daily sales and holding it in their rolling reserve?!?!? This is unbelievable! I called and sat on the phone with paypal for 2 long hours this evening to try and find a reason why this is happening to us? Paypal stated they are planning to target every ebay seller with this new policy. Keep in mind we have received NO correspondence via mail, phone, or email regarding this new crooked act they are doing. Paypal told us the reason they are doing it is to minimize chargebacks. We have only had maybe 5 - 10 charge backs in a 1 year period. We always have had the money in our account to cover such losses if and when they happen. Paypal said they hold onto the money for 60 - 90 days. I called a few other power sellers I know and this has not happened to them yet. Is their anyone out their where this has happened to you? I would love to get some feedback on this. My gosh! We already give them thousands a year in fees just to accept money from buyers. Now this? It is time to re-think how all of us do business here on ebay!
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Welcome to the club of PayPal victims. (This person has done his maths....)
I've run a business for NINE YEARS both selling on eBay and I also have my own three websites and I've used PayPal for financial processing all this time. My Positive Feedback rating on eBay is currently 872.
On September 2nd I received a phone call and confirmation e-mail from a Stacey Stewart ("Merchant Risk Analyst") at PayPal. She announced to me that I must give PayPal $30,000 of my money for them to hold as a "reserve", or they would start taking 15% of every day's sales transactions until a reserve of $30,000 had been created, and then they intend to keep that money as long as I choose to use PayPal (and of course, as per their draconian User Agreement, they would actually keep this money for 180 days AFTER I close the account). Unless of course they choose to increase that amount which she said they could do at anytime they wanted.
Their 15% take seems to be retroactive, as it appears to me they've taken 15% of the money from my September 1st transactions onward.
Here's the thing:
My net profit on what I sell is only about 8% to 9%. So I haven't just become a "not-for-profit", but I am actually incurring a negative cash flow now (it's a wierd feeling to be afraid I'll sell too much!).
And it will take at least 6 months to a year to build up all this money they want. In other words, I am sunk.
Even if the math worked, which is clearly doesn't, the thought of $30,000 of my hard-earned money sitting with a company such as PayPal, a company that is NOT regulated by federal banking laws and is NOT FDIC insured, well, it's a bit more risk than I care to incurr.
I am hoping someone else at PayPal is reasonable. Otherwise, I will get a merchant account at my local bank and be done with them. The little tiny 0.5% better rate they charge on transactions (2.5% vs. my bank's 3.1%) is chicken feed compared to the mafia tactics they are trying to force on us all.
I also have BIG TIME misgivings about this reserve idea because I think PayPal is committing corporate suicide with this new program. No one's money is going to be safe with them, because they're going to loose a HUGE part of their customer base.
Sincerely,
John Mohan
RadarDetectors1
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.... and it doesn't end there.... A post last night (which I can no longer find) talks of reserves being heal against refunds as well. As I understand, Paypal regards a refund to a buyer in a similar way to a seller receiving payment. The mind boggles.....
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and let me tell you Paypal's guarantee is laughable 5% of stored value assets, which means, if they go under, they only have to give account holders 5% of what they had in their account? Feeling safe yet?....
Cupie this is what I havebeen telling some members that are becoming fearful, the greater pajority of PaPal account users have absolutely NO idea of PayPals reach AND lack of accountability should anything go wrong, PayPal do NOT inform it's users in any concise clear manner exactly how utterly corrupt their user agreement is.
I took the liberty of calling PayPal and everything we mentioned here WILL eventually be attributed to the PayPal AU members.
Now I know the governing laws in Australia will limit payPal but just how much, and how much damage will be done before Users catch on, PayPal did NOT advise in the UK and US prior to implimentation.
It is not Safe to have a bank account Linked to PayPal period, anyone that has a Bank account Linked to PayPal is sitting on a financial time bomb, I did have one linked prior to waking up to the PayPal Pirates, I had my Bank Block ALL PayPal transactions to the linked account and withdrew it from payPal (hah), why Hah? you ask...
Hah, because if I had relied soley on me telling PayPal that I had revoked the linking of my Bank account and PayPal, I would have found as so many have, that in a few months, years, PayPal would have NOT closed the link via my request and still be fraudulently extracting funds... my way, the bank has stopped this from occurring in the future.
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Liisa...I absolutely share your indignation with these thugs....and now that Ebay can no longer GAG us (cause we have ozrt), then we CAN voice our discontent as consumers...they gagged us on the RT, because we DID organise ourselves and gave em a good kick in the corporate gonads....Paypal only yeah?...guess again....Aussies don't take lightly to being extorted, and the saving grace is that we are only 22 million...bad publicity is a killer for ebay in Australia....word travels fast. People will vote with their feet. Take no prisoners....Just say no !!!..lol
I like Tello's Idea if we could do it...mass strike.....reckon we can bridge the divide from UK, to US, to Aus?...I do !!!....hehehehe...let's be naughty...
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Yes and Cupie I think this time a lot will actually do it too. This is more terrifying than anything else they have done. I am only a smalltime seller and this would effectively make it pointless for me to sell at all.
**shudders**
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Hi 'R'.....re: posts on the US boards...and HEY YOU 'TELLO'....WTF are the Yanks doing about it?...don't they know how to organise themselves and slam dunk these idiots?....Tello....is the US mighty myth just that? a myth? World Leader?...ok.....'Show me the Money' !!!! I'm about to be even more disillusioned with the ability of the US to lead anything but a shite fight !!! No offense you understand...we lubs ya !!!..but I don't understand the apathy...there's so many of you !!!!...so few of us..and we get pissed off pretty quickly down under.
Maybe I should get some help making me a posting ID so I can post a worldview on the US boards?...I like to stir...I mean instigate...I mean....infuriate...or is that organise?...suggestions welcome...nuf said...!!!
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Yes and Cupie I think this time a lot will actually do it too. This is more terrifying than anything else they have done. I am only a smalltime seller and this would effectively make it pointless for me to sell at all.
**shudders**
Hi Ivy..nice to sees ya....I'll be in it if you will...lol....that's what this place was initially all about...remember?...free speech, death of the RT....and that was only done to silence us, and make sure we couldn't organise ourselves against them once again.....but...hey anything is possible isn't it?...don't get me wrong, I'd love to list on Ebay again, but after 8 years, they've made it much too hard...it used to be fun..now it's a grind...yes?...and, like others, I got half way through the Paypal UA and literally ran...didn't walk to the back button !!!......just can't indemnify Paypal against all imaginable risk whilst giving them the keys to my B/account and Identity?..like for real?...lmao...you'd need your head read !!!
Sure !! let's do something to make them accountable !!
Again...nice to see you back Ivy...!!!
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Cupie..... I too share your concern.... however, the Paypal section of the Ebay US Site has somewhat 'lit-up' since last evening. The most serious aspect of this change was that it was made without notice, and from what I read, retrospective. Talk about limiting the options of the users! The statement from the Paypal person quoted also rings alarm bells....."Paypal stated they are planning to target every ebay seller with this new policy". Now that - would include those users here!
And regarding alarmism..... if these things don't at the least get people curious enough to conduct their own research... well, need I say more.
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r3830, thanks for copying-and-pasting those comments. It highlights the intolerable; it's almost like creating a society in which the lack of alternatives and the virtually punitive financial burden imposed by PayPal creates a nation of slaves.
Is this what Mr Donahue's grand vision for the future actually encompassed? That is, not so much creating a shopping mall as creating an indenture system which binds sellers to eBay/PayPal and scrapes not just the crême but the very substance of the sellers' profits, potential profits AND floats used to maintain the sellers' accounts until (if ever) they do make a profit?
Has it all along been a case of enslaving each seller, sending them into a spiralling debt situation from which they can never struggle free? Has it never BEEN about challenging Amazon? Is this whence Mr Donahue's perceived profit for the shareholders is to come?
If that is the case, it is shameful. It degrades every eBay/PayPal employee and every stockholder and every executive and every media representative applying the gloss - it makes associates in tyranny of everyone involved in perpetuating this.
I don't think PayPal is a bad idea. I think it had excellent potential. The points alarming so many, and putting off so many, are the lack of accountability, the lack of adequate customer service, the lack of fraud prevention, the lack of ID verification, the bot-generated responses and claim "investigation", and the cool cheek of its ever-increasing self-appointed permission in relation to YOUR MONEY.
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Cupie..... I too share your concern.... however, the Paypal section of the Ebay US Site has somewhat 'lit-up' since last evening. The most serious aspect of this change was that it was made without notice, and from what I read, retrospective. Talk about limiting the options of the users! The statement from the Paypal person quoted also rings alarm bells....."Paypal stated they are planning to target every ebay seller with this new policy". Now that - would include those users here!
And regarding alarmism..... if these things don't at the least get people curious enough to conduct their own research... well, need I say more.
My dear friend R paypal / ebay are now militarily minded... they learn't well from the rebellion campaign.. their biggest mistake was to forewarn of the impending changes... then of course it gave the rebels time to amass the troops for a concerted thrust from the rear... which ebay weren't expecting... any money grabbing campaign ebay / paypal wishes to implement now will be done by stealth...no time for anyone to build a battle plan and confusion will be their cloak... I'm surprised the most powerful country on earth is helpless against this foe?... have people lost the will to fight?... are the members there all sheepish?.... more questions than answers...
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I think this entire issue needs to be addressed, questioned, turned inside out, thought about and thoroughly examined. It's time that the RBA took another look at the situation, but we may require a certain degree of discretion in deciding how best to tackle the problem.
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Countess - thankyou for your support. Isn't effective teamwork a truly wonderful thing! All said and done, there was absolutely nothing wrong with bringing this proposed change to the attention of the many users who partake in the services provided by Paypal. In fact, were it not for Liisa's efforts.....
I would suggest that Paypal would be just a touch... well perhaps somewhat more than a touch indignant that the cat is now well out of the bag - and our own people here have been forewarned of what could spell potential disaster for many.
One of the above comments stated that this change was about protecting Paypal from chargebacks. It looks more to me like an initiative that creates a system of seller self-funding for any refunds that occur through INR or SNAD claims. From Paypal's perspective - not a bad idea, as the protection guarantee can then become the responsibility of the seller - and not affect Paypal's bottom line - while Paypal will continue to advertise their great protection - as if it were funded by them! I read that the percentage is a staged one... high risk users may be asked to provide a level of security at a higher premium than 30%, stemming down on the lesser risks. Membership length and DSR ratings also have some effect in the calculations.
We again come back to the functions of Paypal - THEY ARE NOT A BANK - and yet, claim use of these monies for anywhere between 90 and 180 days - or longer. We also come back to the compulsory offering of Paypal by Australian sellers. Given the newly proposed with-holding arrangements, and how this would be interpreted by our own regulators here at home............. This thing requires an ongoing very, very close eye..... or ten!
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I firmly believe this indeed warrants some in depth perusal, calls need to be made and followed up, PayPal according to their own help desk confirmed it is coming, we will not know when, but it IS coming.
I initially started researching this new payPal dilemma stemming from Ebay asking me to do a verification confirmation which entailed initiating a call back or an email from Ebay to verify who I was, before I could List and items for sale on an established account that has been listing for a long time...
They knew already who I was, I AM verified, they had my bank account #, they had my credit card #, they had my 100% high DSR and feedback tally.
No Chargebacks, no disputes....nada.
Ok so I call Ebay, because I notice something...I am to initiate this auto recall via phone or Email.. But..BUT, how is it verification? I CAN (confirmed by Ebay) Give ANY phone number I like or ANY email address I like to be verified, it does NOT have to be the ones on file.. How is this verification I asked...I waited 5 minutes.. no reply, I ask again.... no reply.. then OH OH, they hang up.
I become alarmed..if I can use this fake verification..which as I said is NO verification at all, then what else can they do to me.
I start to research, I stumble across the rolling funds hold...I am aghast, I dig deeper, I start to become Extremely alarmed, I then stumble across the other policies I have shown you all in threads here...with every new tidbit I become more and more concerned.. then I get angry...
PayPal in combination with Ebay are operating illegal transactions and policies, as it was pointed out previously they are using confusion and covert actions to ward off legal issues, they hide their accountability behind closed doors effectively sidestepping it's members cries of fury, it is TIME to ensure we will not be hit harder than we already are with these unworkable and morally reprehesible policies.
How is it Now that PayPal can lay claim to having a "$20,000" buyer protection scheme" when In fact they do NOT, sellers do, they are funding it NOT PayPal, and yet.. PayPal still claim it is theirs. False advertising? Where does PayPal tell sellers that the Protection fund WILL be supplied by the seller.. the answer is NOwhere... yet..unless you dig deep and spend many hours researching and then.. suddenly low and behold, there it is, hidden behind a confusion of policies buried in the back of a thread somewhere.
Why are they not forced to be upfront, why are they not forced to show clear policy changes that affect and HOLD thousands and thousands of PayPal account holders funds indefinately...
Have your say now:
http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/tag/ConsumersMakingAComplaint/ (http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/tag/ConsumersMakingAComplaint/)
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Still reading up from the US. Intention is to post useful info here
PayPal will continue doing whatever they want, just because nobody stands up to them.
Things will only get worse, just because they can do whatever they want.
If PayPal decides, that they will not give you any of your money, they will still get away with it.
Has any Merchant, that is being victimized by PayPal, tried to contact any of the Government agencies, that have been setup to protect Consumers, as well as Merchants, such as:
FTC
BBB
SEC, for those with Money Market Accounts.
The writing on the wall has never been clearer....
Reply
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I have a feeling that the backlash for the current proposals will bite Paypal on the bum.
I wonder if buyers will rebel even more than the sellers on this one?
Buyers are going to start feeling sorry for sellers...and start using another payment method to save their sellers having to wait for their funds.
Of course...this will mean that there will be an increase in shonky sellers that prey on those buyers that feel this way.
Which means that even more buyers will walk away from Ebay....
It will have a domino effect....and no one wins in the end... :(
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Agree Roo - and I hope that when the teeth are sunk in - they leave puncture marks!!
Re: Paypal's "Rolling Reserve" Is anyone dealing with this new unethical act?
Sep 1, 2009 4:57 PM
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They hit us as well. They want $150,000 minimum reserve.
We will stop taking paypal soon.
When they first started with the reserve in December, PayPal said they need evidence that we are managing our orders well.
As long as we have few charge backs over the next 90 days we will be good.
We never had too many chargebacks/disputes. We do hundreds of transactions and get 2-3 per month.
After a few months, we showed proof that we have no problems. They then said that we have a 20% refund rate - that we are returning 20% of the money.
That was never the case. We rarely give a refund. Occasionally you have to do it as customer service.
We had a problem with one item several years ago. So they picked that one month and ignored everything before or after. They didnt average or anything.
Basically, once they hit you and flag your account, they will find some excuse to never give you back your money.
They will claim industry problems, past problems you had or any of a million excuses.
If you close your paypal account, they put you on a master card black list and you may have difficulty getting a merchant account.
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John has rewritten his earlier comments...... note the interest rate payable....
Re: Paypal's "Rolling Reserve" Is anyone dealing with this new unethical act?
Sep 2, 2009 5:05 PM
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I have been selling on eBay for nine years now, and also have websites in three countries for which I use PayPal's Website Payments Pro for my shopping cart. Nine years, an eBay feedback rating of 870, and no paypal problems to speak of (had two stolen credit card transactions in the past nine years that resulted in chargebacks, for which I am the one that ended up losing the money).
I received a phone call from a Stacey at PayPal today. She announced that I must give PayPal a reserve of $30,000 dollars (the equivalent of about two months of my gross sales volume), or else PayPal will be taking 15% off the top of each sale and applying it to a reserve account until the account reaches $30,000. Then they will keep this $30,000 as long as I accept paypal.
The thing is, my NET profit on each sale is only about 7%. And $30,000 represents more than a year's worth of profits from this business for me! So apparently they expect me to PAY to work this business for the next year or more. In comparison, Mafia tactics could be viewed as friendly...
It seems clear to me that the intention is to muscle as many small business merchants out of as much money as possible. They claim they'll pay me interest - at their abysmally low rate (currently 0.06% per year!!!!!). Gee, I wonder how much money they'll make investing the tens of thousands of dollars from each of the tens of thousands of merchants like me?!?! They'll make 5 to 15% while having to pay out... at this time not even a TENTH of a percentage point of interest.
I'll be turning to a different payment solution, as paypal's "offer" is mathematically unworkable for me, and besides, I don't trust them with $30,000 of my money.
Clearly this is an offer I WILL be able to refuse.
John Mohan
RadarDetectors1
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Re: Paypal's "Rolling Reserve" Is anyone dealing with this new unethical act? PAGE 28 / 28 PAGES
Sep 5, 2009 8:52 PM
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WOW! This post has really grown! I wonder if ebay or paypal have been viewing everyone's posts on this discussion........
I have been given some advise by another power seller whom is also an attorney. This individual merely sells for fun or as a hobby here on ebay. This individual recommended I start a facebook page and implement a petition with his support. The petition would involve other ebay sellers whom have been subject to this rolling reserve. They could post on the wall they "object" to the rolling reserve.
He felt with enough signatures, we could take it to ebay and paypal and seek the removal of this rediculous act they have so kindly bestowed upon ebay's sellers. He also stated he would help support the matter.
My questions to everyone whom have been subject to ebay's rolling reserve are"
1.) Do you feel this is a matter to take further?
2.) Would you register on facebook to sign the petition with your user name of your seller id and state you object to the rolling reserve?
3.) Are we too small to fight this?
I appreciate the feedback regarding this post. Your responses will determine if this is something we can take to a higher level.
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I think they can forget the Facebook petition approach. Unless forced to by legislative powers, eBay/PayPal have not in the past backed down from acts which turned away sellers in droves (and buyers as well).
eBay/PayPal paid no attention to the vociferousness with which Australians objected to the PayPal-only push. It was only because the efforts of a few dedicated people who knew whom to contact, what legislation applied, which bodies could stop this, and how to create a massive swell of written protest TO THAT REGULATING BODY that PayPal-only was forced to a halt. PayPal on its own would never, never, never have withdrawn from that position. The ACCC's preliminary ruling demonstrated to eBay/PayPal that they had a nasty shock coming. It seems strange to think this, but it is evident that PayPal did not see that coming. They seem to have been of the opinion that the ACCC would not listen to the record number of submissions virtually unanimously condemning the request for exemption. They seem also not to have anticipated the well-written and powerful submissions that came from various influential parties - some of whom were contacted by members of the "Rebellion". It was in fact the unseen work of the Rebellion which organised what happened, and it was the incredible response of eBayers and concerned citizens which codified that organisation, and it was the superbly written and well-informed submissions from various interested parties both within Australia and outside Australia which gave the whole thing the final nail in the coffin. Bottom line: PayPal was trying to act against Australian legislation. We did not let it happen. We used our legislation to stop them.
The Americans need to think about this in terms of legislation and the power to enforce that legislation. They need to know their consumer laws, their acts, their regulating bodies; they need to contact the major banks and finance companies; they need to contact every politician who might have even a toenail's worth of clout; they need to do more than say, "Please sign". I strongly believe that.
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you don't vote for kings !
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or..Tyrants!
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I really don't know what to say here. All I can say is what I am thinking after reading the latest Paypal/Ebay shananigans on this thread and others in this forum.
I am appalled and believe these changes will happen here in Australia, eventually and Liisa has already been told they will. I believe the only way to have a hope of stopping this is to somehow adress it through the correct legal/appeal channels here in Australia.
I for one have a few items I wish to still sell and after that will be closing my Paypal and linked bank account. It is criminal and frightening that Paypal can access our accounts without our permission.
I also have a creditcard linked to the Paypal account. What is the best way to deal with this? Cancel the card and get a new number? Put a stop on Paypal accessing the card? I have heard that even if you cancel your credit card, a business with your details can still charge against it and you are liable. Is this true?
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From an ex PayPal Manager.
This is LONG but READ it and understand your rights.
PayPal is the "merchant or record" when someone uses their
system to pay with either a bank transfer, check or credit / debt card.
Payments made internally from one PayPal account to another is a different story and the only area PayPal can truly attempt to control.
PayPal is the ones who have the MERCHANT ACCOUNT.
Not you.
It IS PayPal's ultimate responsibility to "verify" who the sender is, who is sending funds to PayPal and to transmit and process these transactions in a secure environment and accordance to industry standards.
PayPal's merchant agreement outlines policies that PayPal must follow in order to receive funds electronically and are given the tools and guidelines to help minimize PayPal's risk of chargebacks or fraudulent use of PayPal's merchant account by senders of funds.
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As far as PayPal providing a "money transfer service" to it's users.(The seller x's of the world).
It is PayPal's ultimate responsibility to verify who it's users are. (Who seller x is) Prior to transferring money to seller x or allowing seller x to offer PayPal's services.
Unfortunately for PayPal they choose to be lax in this registration policy area which puts PayPal at further risk.
Now who's fault is that?
It is not yours because you did not understand their convoluted UA .
It is not yours because you didn't follow their bogus SPP or BPP programs.
It is their fault and their fault alone for not tightening up its lax registration polices and compiling a comprehensive user agreement to begin with.
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PayPal's user agreement is just that. An agreement a policy.
PayPals user agreement has NEVER stood up in a court of law as a binding contract.
Quite the contrary as PayPal's "user agreement" and policies keep being struck down by courts of law through out the lands.
Wonder why? BECAUSE IT IS NOT A BINDING CONTRACT.
PayPal IS the merchant of RECORD when a transaction goes well, as well as when it goes bad. PayPal and only PayPal are libel
for all transactions and activities conducted on their website.
The collections attempts on any user (seller x) by PayPal or it's agents use are erroneous attempts at best.
Many of the tactics they use are not even legal nor can be enforced in a court of law.
Now if PayPal can prove that their services were used with the intent to defraud PayPal. That is a different story
In the case of intentional fraud by seller x it would be a criminal case not just an attempt to collect some money from seller x.
Collection agencies that buy off these bad debts PayPal incur exist for one reason and one reason only. To attempt to bypass regular legal channels to collect a debt that they feel is owed to them by the end user "seller x".
If a PP user decides to not continue to use the PP service nor agrees with PayPal's convoluted polices or that seller x owes PayPal any money, there is nothing more that PP can do other than Freeze the users account with a negative balance and attempt to scare the user into thinking that somehow PP can go "after them" for the money.
It is simply not the case.
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Evening all. The other day I completed a buy now for an archery item listed on the USA ebay site. It's buy now price & post cost (USPS) was excellent value, about half the Australian shop price.
Last night I got the following email from the seller (an archery equipment dealer with his own website)
"Hi ........,
I’m so sorry for the hassle and delay, but we’re actually out of the
Tru Ball Short-N-Sweet S2 releases and we won’t be getting any more for
the rest of the year. I truly apologize about that!! We can offer you a
refund unless there’s something else you’re interested in. Please
let us know and again, so sorry about that!!!
Thanks again and take care,
Andi
Home of the .99 Shipping"
I suspect this is not true as the same item continues to be listed multiple times by the seller but, O/Seas shipping & handling is now more than 4 times higher.
I have chosen to get a refund (about A$88.00) & I suppose this will sit with Paypal until such time as I can transfer it to my banking account.
The interesting thing is, I have found the very same item on another archery website (not Ebay) much cheaper including post & handling. I will buy it from them using my card (it is a secure site & my card carries minimal amounts of money in it).
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Ubbrd.... just goes to show.... "it pays to shop around!"
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I think we're going to see a lot of sellers behaving as your seller did, Ubbrd. With this holding rule, low prices are going to be a joke; no business can sustain a low 7 to 8 % profit margin while simultaneously being asked to offer up a veritable Isaac on the altar of sacrifice to PayPal.
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Yeah I reckon you might be right Countess.
I've been thinking about it. If my suspicions are correct all they had to do was contact me & explain they had underpriced the shipping costs. They could have then given me the choice of remitting the extra shipping cost (via Paypal) or opting for a refund. I respect & in fact expect honesty. I have never tolerated liars & lying.
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Just a note about the events of last night.......... An important note...
As mentioned on the Paypal Blood Stone thread prior to it being deleted, the purpose of posting the information on the RT boards was to bring the matter to the attention of other members - a forewarning if you like, of things to come. The message was immediately swamped by pro Paypal people who set out with the simple intention of ridiculing the information. Of course - as is generally the case - these same people have no interest in whether there is/was any credibility in the matters raised - and with very few exceptions, could not even follow the links that were raised by posters from either this - or the Ebay site.
The common theme expressed was that nobody had heard anything about this pending change...... and that was precisely the purpose of the message - to inform users of the need to undertake their own research in the matter - and to identify whether they would be placed in jeopardy as other people had been, their examples being highlighted. The narrow minded saw the message as nothing short of a simple "dissing" session on Paypal. It wasn't - it was about notifying people of a policy change, and a serious one at that. The link was removed shortly after an Ebay member was so kind as to post the Paypal link to the story. But, of course, that would have been coincidental. Everybody would have been made aware of the changes eventually - perhaps as our colleagues were in the US..... nearly a MONTH after they had been implemented! They weren't offered options - they were already paying the piper. And realistically - why wouldn't both Ebay and Paypal WANT our Aussie users to be aware of a new policy???
I since learn that another thread was created - I didn't see it - but I understand this to be fact..... where Yib was asked whether he had 'pulled' his own thread. Put simply..... NO, he did not! It was not in the interest of the message being delivered to do so. Individual posts identifying links to OZRT certainly were removed by mods - prior - to the thread being deleted, as comments continued to build. I also understand that profanities were directed at various members of this site. I truly do hope that those "people" responsible for that sort of reprehensible behaviour continue to sleep uncomfortably.
To date, 644 views of this file have taken place. Was the effort worth it? Well, as long as the message got out to the many good people who we've all come to know, both here and on the RT forums - yes, it most certainly was!
Yib - you got clobbered by the pink crowbar for your efforts.... Mate - Wear that one with pride!
Isn't freedom of speech a precious commodity!
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Well said R numbers.
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Thankyou for the kind words r... the coward wielding the pink crowbar was under gunned, it's going to take more than that to silence us...
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lo_JFolbht4/Sd75RFzU4xI/AAAAAAAABBE/xPqJ1Qx9hHQ/s400/crowbar.jpg)
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Yib....... I've found you some motivation. This should help BIG TIME!!! Looks like Tello on the drums!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MotNtq41NDw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MotNtq41NDw)
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Here's the real deal Ubbrd......
http://mediaservices.myspace.com/services/media/embed.aspx/m=5554542,t=1,mt=video
http://mediaservices.myspace.com/services/media/embed.aspx/m=5552823,t=1,mt=video
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The mere fact that this thread has been read 664 times (as per this post) shows that there are other interested parties, keen to learn and be informed of their rights and any forthcoming policies that will not be made public until it is too late.
I do want to clarify something and make it crystal clear, I am NOT anti PayPal, I use PayPal as a seller because I have to, and as a buyer for conveniance, I AM however anti PayPal insofar as their dirty tactics, illegal business practices, covert policies, threatening attitude etc ad infinitum.
Why use it some may say.. Read the paragraph above.. I would also like to add, PayPal used to be free for those of you that remember, and I know they are a business, I get that, all I try to do is keep people informed of their rights, and PayPals upcoming policies that will effect everyone and in some sad cases cripple small account holders.
My Posts are NOT Paypal hate speech, they are for information purposes.
This statement alone should make some people sit up and take notice:
Paypal Adds New Fees Without Notice
- Last month or so Paypal quietly began charging new fees to its customers without actually notifying them of the change. “We didn’t want to make a huge formal communication out of this pricing change, because we weren’t really adding any fees, and we were hoping it would be a more useful experience for people,” explained PayPal PR manager Charlotte Hill.
No they were NOT adding fees but they DID creatively restructure pricing... same thing in my book, it seems to fall under the "Sometimes you don't need to fool everyone, you just need to fool enough people" Banner it seems.
Know your rights, it's your livelyhood and YOUR money.
http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/tag/ConsumersMakingAComplaint/ (http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/tag/ConsumersMakingAComplaint/)
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Well put Liisa.....
I am also NOT anti-PAYPAL! I am also a buyer - not a seller - who likes the convenience of the service. But I am also a strong supporter of a consumer's right to know.
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PayPal Hold Gestapo Tactics
The OP:
PayPal claims to be protecting the buyer with it's hold policy when in fact it is to increase PayPal's float time. A buyer who has a problem has plenty of recourse.
Like some people I do more buying on Ebay than I do selling. All my feedback has been great. PayPal is holding about $40.00 for a recent sale of mine I assume because I haven't sold anything in close to a year.
PayPal is being paid by taking a percentage of my funds therefore I am their client not the buyer.
They don't protect people using PayPal from buying useless ripoff items elsewhere on the net. They want to play big brother for Ebay.
Reply 1:
I do not like it either, the wording versus the real meaning.
Why doesn't PayPal just state, here we have a policy change to make us more money, or, we have another policy change to make us even more money.
That would be fair and clear.
Now it's just lies.
http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Paypal/Paypal-Hold-Gestapo/510136566 (http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Paypal/Paypal-Hold-Gestapo/510136566)
More:
http://forums.ebay.com/db2/forum/Paypal/97 (http://forums.ebay.com/db2/forum/Paypal/97)
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(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv277/area_51_bucket/kilpaypal.jpg)
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Gi all
First post... so be gentle... ;D. Gral sent me here.
I used to sell on ebay up until 2 years ago, around the time they were changing the feedback and started the PP shove. As a company owner I could not allow another business to tell me how to run my company nor allow this other business (PP) to cost us more money than necessary, so we parted company with ebay to solve that problem.
However, for the last 5+ years we have been using PP to pay for all our imports from China, the PP account is linked to a company credit card. Now I have to admit I am really worried about this rolling reserve garbage from a company point of view. We do not use PP to accept any payments at all (we have our own merchnat facility), it is stricly used to transfer funds to China. IF, they decide to bring in this reserve policy into Australia it will cause irrevocable damage to our companies cash flow because I think in our case it will not be a low reserve due to the amount we transfer weekly, fortnightly etc.
I will make myself available to do whatever I can to assist or initiate any action to stop PP in bringing in this policy to Australia and tampering with my companies working capital.
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Hi Gina welcome to the site !....you'll like it here...WE INSIST !.....LOLOL seriously tho.... you will like it...
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Ginar, welcome - I think your perspective will be welcome to see how this holding rule will actually affect people and the way they use PayPal. Can people afford to trust PayPal in these circumstances if PayPal refuses to relinquish the full funds belonging to its members?
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Hi Gina welcome to the site !....you'll like it here...WE INSIST !.....LOLOL seriously tho.... you will like it...
The Yibster snipes AGAIN!
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Sorry I cut yer lunch dude !...LOL
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HI Ginar ,
(http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt336/smeeagain61/welcometrain.gif)
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Sorry I cut yer lunch dude !...LOL
Snooz-ya-looz.
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G'day Ginar, welcome aboard. you will have lots of fun here. There are also a lot of very wise members here with great analytical minds who will give advise where necessary.
:pirateship:
I'm an advocate for keelhauling if anyone plays up lol.
:keelhaul:
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Hi Ginar.....'G' is well respected here and extremely knowledgeable on this type of thing.....This whole issue smacks of predatory business practices, and just like the Paypal only period, Ebay/Paypal are just marching ahead without consultation or consideration. It simply has to breach TPA when it comes to businesses being dominated in such a fashion via a one sided 'ever changing' UA' otherwise known as a 'contract'?
We're not just talking about ebay anymore, we're talking about E-Commerce generally. Ginar, have you made any enquiries with ACCC as a company? or RBA? I only ask because when a corporate entity makes these enquiries, ACCC tend to be more attentive, than if a consumer does.
It also must be in the jurisdiction of the Payment Systems Board & RBA, because it will effect the entire E-commerce marketplace and all of its consumers and businesses. Paypal is everywhere these days, so this is going to be the biggest cash grab we've ever witnessed surely ??. Then consider how safe your information or 'withheld finances' are in light of their UA?
Simple Question...Why don't our major banks get together and give us an Aussie Equivalent to Poopal, linked automatically to our existing bank accounts?...too easy?
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Hi Ginar.. Welcome.. I do not like P$P never have, in answer to your quire I can not see how it will affect your dealings with Chinese suppliers. This new P$P money grab is only at receiver of money account/s . P$P is still trying to get market share in china and it will be years if ever in my opinion they will try this money grab in china so the problem may never surface.
I have a suspicion this money grab is more than just intrest free money to make intrest on. I suspect this money will be displayed as profits and reserves in the total eBay balance sheet to prop up the share price while senior managent sells off its stock options, they know how quickly they are sinking. With creative accounting and international different laws, in one country somewhere. P$P will be braking no laws when the bubble finally bursts.
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Thank you all so much for the warm welcome.
Cupie - haven't done anything yet, I just feel it may be a bit pointless at this time and am thinking the time to act will be when it happens. At least being a company it may give us a little more clout than a registered business or sole trader.
Shyer - I read somewhere during the week that they are also applying this to accounts that have not been used to accept money, wish I had noted the link.
I also read somewhere that PP can not hold you to their UA if they have changed it and not asked you to agree to it, this was on a USA site (making mental note here to bookmark these links). And because of this there is a possible class action pending in the USA regarding this reserve.
I feel that if it does come to the crunch that we will have a strong case here to get it thrown out especially after we all stood up to them last time and WON!! We have had a merchant card facility with 2 different banks and never once have we been asked to put money in a reserve.
The other thing that concerns me is that this is going to create MAJOR problems with our chinese suppliers if they are hit with this reserve, I don't think they will fully understand and try and put the onus back on the buyer to recoup what is in reserve and this will cause delays. If this happens we will need to move to TT which is a pain in the proverbial, as it is slow and cumbersome having to fill out the paperwork and send someone to the bank.
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Sorry to butt in - but not only bookmark the page - but copy and paste entire page and the link and also use the wayback machine to 'bookmark' the page for you (which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't) but it takes 6 months to show up.
The copying and screenprints can be a VERY VALUABLE tool that is often overlooked - if the uRL is changed/page removed - you have nothing - that is why it is essential to copy/paste/screen print EVERYTHING
Just thought I would add some confusion to the muddy waters
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Well I think I know what eBay is doing with the cash grab. Read this. My personal experience is from 1999 till 2006 90% of items I listed sold mainly lowish start auctions. 2006 to 2008 half auction half bin and fell in period down to 30% paid sales. Now nearly all Bin with a few high auction start price 10% paid sales so far this july to september. Nearly all buyers do not understand or are even aware of best mismatch, and ebay is unwilling to even mention the change.
I started to leave ebay when the P$P only push started but I soon found all my compeditors had left my niche. This time I think I will be forced to leave, and that ebay niche will disappear.
NEW YORK (Reuters) - eBay Inc may cut 1,500 jobs, according to an article in Barron’s weekly, citing a report published last week by investment-research firm Wedge Partners.
The Wedge report, according to Barron’s, said eBay’s business was “deteriorating” and the company was readying layoffs that could affect 10 percent of its 15,000 employees.
How does this relate to eBay burning billions of dollars buying back it’s own shares?
In 2008 eBay profit is roughly 2B and they have already spent 1B or more on eBay stock buy back in 2008 and have a plan to spend another billion by end of 2008. This will effectively wipe out their net revenues for the year.
They sure are not in a cash crunch, they will be just left with little less cash than they had in 2007 (little under 4 billion dollars) and their share price in the toilet inspite of those hefty stock repurchases.
Layoffs plus continued buy back in 4th Q would be a typical eBay’s disregard for their own employees. eBay management will rather layoff thousands of workers, just like they abuse their sellers and buyers while investing obscene amounts of money into attempts to prop up their eBay shares.
If they do layoffs, it looks like a PR move aimed purely at Wall Street… Time will tell.
In USA it is legal for companies to buy their own share Soooo... where will eBay spend the 1 billion in cash it will be holding in P$P next year? Buying its own shares is my guess as they have spent 2 billion in the last two years trying to prop up the share price and senior staff stock options now worth money.
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Shyer, that's an interesting speculation. It should be researched; if there's a real connection, it is reprehensible behaviour to use money that does not belong to PayPal (but which it "temporarily" appropriates) in order for eBay/PayPal to buy its own (eBay's) stock.
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Countess I do not know why USA allows companies to buy their own stock as it is undemocratic and very unfair. One of the the worst example's is shareholders who only own 20% or less of any companies shares ,can force their way on to most boards and can soon effectively control that board . By using company funds to buy the companies shares and the board then controls those shares .
And it is untraceable for eg. P$P "invests" all held monies in Luxembourg/Nauru/Monaco/Nigeria/Fiji etc. bank blue sky (owned by eBay but "private " information) . Blue sky bank through various nominees and trusts buys eBay shares ( again private )
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The "internal" ownership of shares in your own company as described by Shyer ^^^ up there, can and does happen by proxy in Australia...
Remember the spagetti style share ownership in Adsteam and all their subsidiaries ???
:wine: