Author Topic: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2  (Read 90852 times)

Philip.Cohen

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Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« on: September 13, 2009, 09:03:56 AM »
Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2

Shining some light on the more sophisticated and therefore harder to detect shill bidding activity by some “professional” sellers on eBay auctions

Oh no, not another case study on shill bidding on eBay auctions? Yes, sorry, another one. This time a spreadsheet analysis of multiple auctions from some "professional" sellers from the US and Australia. Needless to say the analysis demonstrates, once again, that, contrary to eBay's claims, shill bidding by many “professional” sellers is rampant on eBay auctions. The full comment and spreadsheet download links at:
http://www.auctionbytes.com/forum/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=24296
“Today we’re dealing with phase two or phase three [he can’t even remember which one] of disruptive innovation. We’ve had the disruption, now we must disrupt our own disruption.”—John Donahoe (2007).

**cupie**

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2009, 09:58:11 AM »
Hi Philip..nice to see you back...feel free to post the case studies here...nobody's gonna get all up in arms about it.....I'll have a look a bit later today so I can give it a bit of time and consideration.....I do however, think that you've uncovered another HUGE fraud issue on Ebay... there doesn't seem to be anything they won't turn a blind eye to actually.

I've gotten to the stage where I don't bid and if I do, once outbid, that's it...I don't bid again.....always keeping your warnings in the back of my mind re: shill bidding.

I wonder though.....how did the RE industry end up being regulated for shill bidding?....was it considered fraud?...and if so, isn't this the exact same thing?  i.e. unverified bidders and sellers bumping up the price?

*CountessA*

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2009, 11:00:01 AM »
*makes note to read link today*
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

Philip.Cohen

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2009, 02:17:14 PM »
For the benefit of "RiffRaff" I have included in the spreadsheet some auctions from the  seller "vms_phones"; this is the seller whose several auctions (also included) RiffRaff previously could find no indication of shill bidding on; he did not look very far; they are indeed, as others suspected, rampant shill bidders.

You will have no trouble understanding eBay once you come to terms with the fact that it is a criminal organisation that obtains much of its revenue from knowingly aiding and abetting unscrupulous sellers to defraud buyers. It's as simple as that ...
“Today we’re dealing with phase two or phase three [he can’t even remember which one] of disruptive innovation. We’ve had the disruption, now we must disrupt our own disruption.”—John Donahoe (2007).

**cupie**

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2009, 03:04:47 PM »
it is a criminal organisation that obtains much of its revenue from knowingly aiding and abetting unscrupulous sellers to defraud buyers.

Can't disagree there...and in more ways than one.

RiffRaff

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2009, 04:46:07 PM »
Phillip. not for my benefit but for the benefit of those who are into your conspiracy theories, please provide an item number from the seller, vms phones, where you beleive shill bidding has taken place. You may also wish to back it up with some proof, prior to making these allegations.

Directing people to look at a number of auctions by a seller, does not make that seller guilty......just because you think they are.

Philip.Cohen

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2009, 05:44:49 PM »
RiffRaff,

Could I direct you to your reply #25 (25 July 2009) at
http://www.ozroundtable.com/index.php?topic=665.20
for the details of the two auctions in question (350226109170; 50226109139), and where you stated quite positively that “there is nothing in the bid histories to indicate shill bidding”.

Of course, you are right, there is nothing in those bid histories to indicate shill bidding; those bid history pages were deliberately designed by eBay (along with the masking of bidding IDs) to obscure all but the most naïve of shill bidding. (Oh, dear me, another conspiracy theory.)

Now, as you obviously missed the link in the OP to the “proof” that I have already supplied, can I again refer you to the linked case study at
http://www.auctionbytes.com/forum/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=24296
or you can go straight to the spreadsheet analysis (and the Notes on the use thereof) at
http://home.exetel.com.au/philipcohen/eBay/.

Do a search for either one of those two auction numbers or the seller, and you will see that a multi-auction analysis of this seller demonstrates that this seller is indeed an habitual shill, with a “rolling” use of multiple shill IDs. Then, maybe all those multiple bidders were simply after a lot of phones? What say you, Riff Raff?

You appear to have a history of accepting everything that eBay says and does as being “kosher”; I know them to be unscrupulous, disingenuous, indeed criminal. If you are not, in fact, an eBay stooge and therefore not really interested in the reality of eBay’s operation, could I suggest that you take the trouble to inform yourself by reading my linked case study before you make any further claims of me not backing up my assertions with “proof”.

Forget the odd naïve shill that you may or may not notice in the Bid History pages; it’s the “professional” sellers’ shilling, that can only be detected with a multi-auction analysis, that you have to be most fearful of—or, if you trust eBay so much, by all means rely on eBay’s “proactive”, “sophisticated” systems to protect you from being defrauded …

Wake up RiffRaff, eBay is effectively in cahoots with the fraudsters …
“Today we’re dealing with phase two or phase three [he can’t even remember which one] of disruptive innovation. We’ve had the disruption, now we must disrupt our own disruption.”—John Donahoe (2007).

RiffRaff

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2009, 06:10:37 PM »
You see Philip, you lose all credibility when you accuse me of being an eBay stooge.

Just because you have collated hundreds of pages of bid histories, you have uncovered nothing in relation to shill bidding on the part of vms.

Yes Philip, when people want a phone, they bid on auctions. If they don't win with the first, they may try again, and again or they may move on to another seller. Bidding on eBay auctions is how you win a phone Philip. People will continue to bid until they win.

You obviously enjoy doing whatever it is you do.......please carry on.


Philip.Cohen

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2009, 06:46:23 PM »
RiffRaff,

Still you do not say whether or not you have read the case study or actually examined the spreadsheet in any detail. I get the feeling that you are really not interested in any negative comment about eBay. I am sorry, but you appear to me to be an eBay appologist. Are you a "professional" seller?

I suppose you will be next telling me that there is not a significant shill bidding problem on eBay, and that what there is, eBay has under control. Is that your contention?

Let's see if, after examining the facts that I have supplied, anyone else is as unconvinced, as you apparently still are, that the seller "vms_phones" (and many of the others listed in the spreadsheet) is an habitual shill bidder?

“Today we’re dealing with phase two or phase three [he can’t even remember which one] of disruptive innovation. We’ve had the disruption, now we must disrupt our own disruption.”—John Donahoe (2007).

bobbybigbear

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2009, 07:43:04 PM »
Why wouldn't there be shillbidding. Ebay staff were convicted of registering fake ID's for the purpose of doing it, and it was discovered by some Power Sellers in the US because they were having to pay higher fee's and knew they were not guilty of shill bidding. Pretty sure that was uncovered in 2000.

My belief is that ebay will never get caught doing that again, and have outsourced it to some people, who extract a fee from some power sellers, in some cases,  to do it.  And who else would you get but one who is adept at registering fake ID's, thousands of them.

By doing this, ebay are in the clear, and no direct evidence can be linked to them or the seller because it's not he/she doing it.

Nice Gig if your an expert at manipulating IP's using registered members names gleaned from all sorts of avenues as simple as buying some cheap goods from them.

Look at it from that perspective Phil, it's been going on for years.

Poddy

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2009, 09:13:38 PM »
Hello Philip,

Thank you for verifying what I already knew concefrning vm_phones.

I was the person who showed Riff the example of shill bidding by that seller, I conducted a multi auction study in that particular coverinf around 50 auctions for the same model phone.

When I presented the result I got the same response from Riff so dont feel singled out  ;D


bobbybigbear

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2009, 11:05:57 PM »
Poddy that would be a little like showing the defedant in a murder trial, all the evidence you had on him.

Not that it would make much difference, those shilling ID's are like the latest CD to hit airplay, they are placed on high rotation, especially when detetcted.

Philip.Cohen

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2009, 08:45:57 AM »
You are right of couse, it's not obvious from simply viewing the spreadsheet, but as I have been adding auctions to the spreadsheet it becomes noticable that some IDs then appear on a second, sometimes then a third auction and then they can disappear for a period; of, course they could all be genuine bidders; only eBay can know for sure—and they ain't tellin'; and, if indeed, eBay is changing these aliases every quarter, then there is no way of users keeping track over time ...

Has anyone else been able to ascertain whether or not eBay is continuing to change the masked aliases periodically? In other words, has your alias changed? Mine did change at least once; maybe it was a once-only event? Who knows—probably not even eBay.
“Today we’re dealing with phase two or phase three [he can’t even remember which one] of disruptive innovation. We’ve had the disruption, now we must disrupt our own disruption.”—John Donahoe (2007).

bobbybigbear

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2009, 10:20:22 AM »
Phil, the problem is everytime someone makes a noise about this, the goal posts move, and ebay are the ones who move it. On any internet based business, it's a simple matter of a few keystrokes to eliminate the evidence.
The noise I have been making for years have seen me targeted, and banned from auction sites and forums for almost four years, and the same people who have been involved in this, also have a presence on any forum where ebay is discussed, including this one, and their own.

The same people under multiple ID's, across many forums, always present, always watching, and gathering information on others. When one ID gets discovered, it disappears, but another one pops up. Supposedly highly educated people, and a couple of them are, being Trolls, for why...?

Then you have the Pinks, and I have written to many with my summation, and asked simple questions, like checking all the posts and ID's on threads, not just the ones members get banned for, and while it's plain as the nose on anyones face, where the baiting starts, nothing happens.

The speed with which some posts disappear tells myself and others, that those involved in the baiting, work for ebay, because they have the delete button at their disposal.  I have a long list of posts that disappear when certain subjects or people are mentioned.

I have been told by Police they do not have the resources to investigate my suspicions, and despite their admission, after reading my reports, that they also believe there is truth in many of my accusations.  The problem is these people know the internet inside out, and know they can never be caught, unless they do something really stupid.  While to many of us, trolling is stupid, it's a necessary part of their game, so they can eliminate anyone who suspects what is going on, and keep their finger on the pulse of whats happening across all forums.  I also believe the same thing is happening on OZtion, and the proof is even more convincing because they do not hide bidders, and is easily detected, however, it's admin have a standard reply they can see no evidence, and even go as far as deleting negative feedback for sellers who are under great suspicion. It is also a fact that OZtion appears to have a much higher rate of  NPB's than ebay, and I reckon this is a mixture of shill bidding, and retaliation against members who love to fight and bait each other on the forums.  And yes, I know, conspiracy theories, but when you look for  reason behind supposedly sane peoples actions, it's not drawing a very long bow at all, in fact the probability is quite high in my book.  Simple, an independent group of people paid to do what ebay and OZtion cannot afford to be caught doing.

*Yibida*

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2009, 11:36:10 AM »
 Bob RE: your statement.

"""The noise I have been making for years have seen me targeted, and banned from auction sites and forums for almost four years, and the same people who have been involved in this, also have a presence on any forum where ebay is discussed, including this one, and their own."""

 = care to elaborate on who the mole or moles are here? what example can you share with us? Have you informed Admin?



= Or do you think I'm baiting you also?...Bob get a grip, no one on this forum's got it in for you, just because some one here has a difference of opinion doesn't mean your getting baited, FFS I wouldn't be here if that was the case, I left all that crap over there as did everyone that's here now, our Admin and Mod's are on the ball and will not stand for it here, put up the examples of you being baited on this site or let it die, I feel you would be a good Allie if another rebellion started but until you realize we are not the enemy you are a liability to yourself and your credibility. WE are not your enemy.  

*CountessA*

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2009, 12:07:56 PM »
Shill-bidding isn't a criminal activity. If, for example, Reginald fforthright-Biddington is selling something on eBay, has lots of watchers but no bids, and creates a second ID in order to bid on his own item to encourage other watchers to bid - and is caught out by eBay when someone watching finds the bidding suspicious - eBay will NOT report this to the police and ask for criminal charges to be laid.

If eBay did ask for that, it would be laughable. The issue isn't CRIMINALITY.

The issue is that it's an eBay policy designed to make auctions a level playing field. The market is supposed to set the price, not the seller pretending to be the market. In some countries, in some jurisdictions, for some types of auction, shill-bidding is also an issue that has legal repercussions, but as far as I'm aware, that is not the case with shill-bidding on eBay.

But eBay are not dealing fairly and in line with the TPA if they allow some accounts to get away with shill-bidding and sanction other accounts. It's no excuse to say that the easily detectable shill-bidding of my example above is unambiguously shill-bidding if the IP is the same, etc. A two-year-old could establish that. But eBay have been saying they have "sophisticated" ways of detecting shill-bidding; and if that's so, eBay members have the right to expect that shill-bidding noticeable to the naked eye will also be noticeable to eBay's "sophisticated" methods. Not only that, but eBay members have the right to expect that persistent and professional shill-bidding by larger accounts will have MORE severe penalties imposed upon them than the small amateur guy selling a one-off item and trying to get a fairer price for it.

"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

*CountessA*

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2009, 12:31:29 PM »
From eBay's own site:

Quote
Shill bidding is bidding that artificially increases an item’s price or desirability. It’s also bidding by the people the seller knows—including family members, roommates, or employee—who could have certain information about the item that other members aren’t aware of. To make sure no one gets an unfair advantage, we don’t allow shill bidding on eBay.

If people close to you want to buy your item, they can use a format that doesn’t involve bidding, such as Buy It Now.

If you have employees, make sure they’re aware of this policy and what the consequences are for violating it.

Review our Shill Bidding tutorial to learn more about this policy.

If you sell an item using a fixed price format, keep in mind that fixed price purchases can't be used to increase a member's Feedback ratings or search standing. If you violate this policy, you may be suspended from using our site. For more details on our guidelines, see our Feedback manipulation policy and our search and browse manipulation policy.

Make sure your listing follows our guidelines. If it doesn't, it may be removed, and your buying and selling privileges could be restricted.

If you think someone's breaking the rules, report it to us. Be sure to provide the member's user ID and the item number.
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

bobbybigbear

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2009, 01:07:58 PM »
Quote
= Or do you think I'm baiting you also?...Bob get a grip, no one on this forum's got it in for you,



Put it back in your pants Yib, please quote WHERE, I said anything about someone here having it in for me.

Baiting comes in many forms, including misquoting people on purpose.

And yes, Admin are informed who they are.  And it wouldn't matter to me if people had it in for me, that's their problem, not mine, so long as it's a level playing field, and members are not favoured over others that's fine, but forum rules here are about Censorship, and no different to ebay.
When you trap a Troll, the pinks come to their rescue and lock the thread and direct questions don't get answered, so Yib, I cannot answer you as far as naming people because " It's against forum Rules ". I can't talk about who they are, sanctions I may have received, the contents of a deleted thread, or anything else that may incriminate, or lead others to a conclusion to who these people may be.
I gave links to people here who never bothered to use them to find the truth, so one cannot do much for those with closed minds, and it's just that simple.

And you know what Yib, the same protection given to those Trolls on ebay, are given to them here because it's set up on the same forum guidelines.
This the problem with Trolls and crims, there are laws to protect them, but not Mr & Mrs Citizen who just want to buy and sell and use the forums, it is so easily open to abuse and manipulation, Ebay knows it, it works well for them, and they will never change it unless they can make more money out of it.

I think I would contest the thinking that shill bidding is not illegal, and I am sure there is  a Federal Law, under the Communications Act that covers it, along with stalking laws.
I will have to reference it, but it's something about using a conveyance or carriage service, and how it cannot be used, and registering fake ID's to shill bid with is a deception for gain or profit, and the act states that. My son has a bachelor of policing degree, and touched on these laws when he saw the idiots doing what they were doing on an offshore website.  Think I will take his word for it.


Philip.Cohen

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2009, 01:20:35 PM »
Hey, people this thread is supposed to be about shill bidding …

From time to time responses to my "rants" give me food for further comment, eg:

The Bid History Details pages, provided supposedly as a counterbalance to the masking of bidders’ IDs, contains a “30-Day Summary”. Why is this summary only 30 days and not 90 days, or infinite? I would submit that eBay’s “nod, nod, wink, wink”, attitude to shill bidding requires that “professional” shill bidders be able to “refresh” their shill IDs by rotating them over as short a period as possible. If the summary was over 90 days the shills would need 60 shill IDs instead of 20, if the summary was infinite, heaven forbid! And that is were an ongoing spreadsheet analysis comes in handy.

Oh, countessa,

Do we really have to go over and over the ethical status of shill bidding?

In every civilized country any form of undisclosed vendor (shill) bidding at an auction (whether successful or not) is fraud, and that is a criminal activity. How could any thinking person think that such activity could be other than fraudulent and criminal?

eBay don’t report anything to police because they are effectively complicit in the shill bidding activity—and the police have got more important crime to contend with; and eBay should be detecting and controlling such activity themselves, but don’t, and won’t because it is not in their financial interests to do so.

eBay has no “sophisticated” system for the detection of shill bidding. All their statements thereon (and on most other things) are all pure BS. Indeed the great majority of eBay statements and actions regarding the security of consumers are nominal only and serve only to make it appear that they are doing something when in fact they are doing nothing.

Read my linked rant.
“Today we’re dealing with phase two or phase three [he can’t even remember which one] of disruptive innovation. We’ve had the disruption, now we must disrupt our own disruption.”—John Donahoe (2007).

*Yibida*

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2009, 01:33:46 PM »
Bob once again you have misunderstood....sigh..... and leave my pant's out of it...if your so observant how come you don't see I wear a skirt?....

I wrote ; = care to elaborate on who the mole or moles are here? what example can you share with us? Have you informed Admin? ....Notice I said Here? I'm not concerned with the ebay forums only this forum.

On many threads through out this site you do have little digs about being suppressed, I'm not going to go through hundreds of posts, just to find your cynical remarks about the Admin and how your posts go poof,
whilst others don't, you may not see it but it does stand out, if you can't see it then so be it.

*smee*

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2009, 01:37:52 PM »
 :applause:

*CountessA*

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2009, 01:42:00 PM »
Philip, we're agreed on the ethics of shill-bidding. I believe it is unacceptable behaviour. I particularly find it unacceptable as a practice for large sellers. I have some small sympathy for smaller sellers who listed items at 99 cents and were alarmed to find that they might have to actually sell the item at that price - and who shill-bid to try to get a realistic price on that item. My sympathy doesn't mean I approve.

Like many buyers, I have seen suspicious behaviour with IDs that commonly bought from one person - and one person only. Whenever I suspect shill-bidding in an auction, I immediately back away.

I make the comment merely, for the benefit of anyone who wants to approach this question from the point of view of criminality, that expecting criminal charges to be laid by eBay against shill-bidders (even those proven to be shill-bidders rather than merely suspected) is expecting the impossible.
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

**cupie**

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2009, 01:43:20 PM »
Thanks Phil...I was thinking exactly the same thing i.e. staying on topic....

bobby, you have managed to accuse at least half a dozen members of various things, when most of us didn't have a clue who you were until you joined this forum and started making these allegations.....I agree with Yib....get over it already......nobody here is trolling you...that kind of conduct isn't encouraged here.....but you seem to be imposing your belligerence all over the place...chill out !!!  Enuf Said !!

Now...back to Shill Bidding...Yes Countess, Phil is right, Shill bidding is considered 'rorting' at the very least, and it's connotations in terms of fraud would probably be found in the reason why traditional auction and RE Auction industries were regulated to stop shill bidding.

At one point in Australia, not that long ago, this practice was completely outlawed in the Real Estate Industry, where it was rife.  They regulated that by making all potential bidders register to bid with their real ID details, and I think that is exactly the same with traditional auctions.

I.e. in traditional auctions you have to give them your credit card details, license etc,....but I'm no expert on this subject.....would have to research the reasons why regulation in auction settings were put in place originally.  In RE Auctions you have to give them your name, license etc, I imagine but I'm not entirely sure of all this...just speculating.  I might do a quick search and see if I can find out if and what regulation surrounds other auction settings.

I think the answer might be however, in the reasons why these other types of auction industries were regulated for shill bidding, or if they did it voluntarily or what?.  The question then is....Why are Ebay Auctions any different when it comes to registering and properly identifying both buyers and sellers??

bobbybigbear

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2009, 01:54:08 PM »
Quote
= Or do you think I'm baiting you also?...Bob get a grip, no one on this forum's got it in for you, just because some one here has a difference of opinion doesn't mean your getting baited, FFS I wouldn't be here if that was the case, I left all that crap over there as did everyone that's here now, our Admin and Mod's are on the ball and will not stand for it here, put up the examples of you being baited on this site or let it die, I feel you would be a good Allie if another rebellion started but until you realize we are not the enemy you are a liability to yourself and your credibility. WE are not your enemy.  


I didn't misunderstand this at all.

But I am against any policy that allows Trolls to be protected, by censorship, because the same policy is open to be abused by poeple playing favourites, and I am not going to raise the subject and get banned for it again.  I am not going to ruffle feathers because I get attacked because someone reads a post and assumes I mean something totally different to the words in the post.

I posted the comment from OZtion the other day where a member said " So what you really saying is ".

That is at least polite, and gives the poster to reply by saying, " No, that's not what I said at all "


You telling me to " Get a Grip " invites a reply to put it back in your pants, as it's is generally a sign of someone puffing their chest out, when totally uncalled for.

*Yibida*

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2009, 01:58:50 PM »
Quote
= Or do you think I'm baiting you also?...Bob get a grip, no one on this forum's got it in for you, just because some one here has a difference of opinion doesn't mean your getting baited, FFS I wouldn't be here if that was the case, I left all that crap over there as did everyone that's here now, our Admin and Mod's are on the ball and will not stand for it here, put up the examples of you being baited on this site or let it die, I feel you would be a good Allie if another rebellion started but until you realize we are not the enemy you are a liability to yourself and your credibility. WE are not your enemy.  


I didn't misunderstand this at all.

But I am against any policy that allows Trolls to be protected, by censorship, because the same policy is open to be abused by poeple playing favourites, and I am not going to raise the subject and get banned for it again.  I am not going to ruffle feathers because I get attacked because someone reads a post and assumes I mean something totally different to the words in the post.

I posted the comment from OZtion the other day where a member said " So what you really saying is ".

That is at least polite, and gives the poster to reply by saying, " No, that's not what I said at all "


You telling me to " Get a Grip " invites a reply to put it back in your pants, as it's is generally a sign of someone puffing their chest out, when totally uncalled for.


As another poster said not so long ago..."what ever"...you believe what you want Bob... my life's to short for this.

bobbybigbear

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2009, 01:59:10 PM »
Quote
Thanks Phil...I was thinking exactly the same thing i.e. staying on topic....

bobby, you have managed to accuse at least half a dozen members of various things, when most of us didn't have a clue who you were until you joined this forum and started making these allegations.....I agree with Yib....get over it already......nobody here is trolling you...that kind of conduct isn't encouraged here.....but you seem to be imposing your belligerence all over the place...chill out !!!  Enuf Said !!

Quote
bobby, you have managed to accuse at least half a dozen members of various things,

Care to quote who they are....?

You baited me the other day, and I stated your comments would stand and mine would be deleted if I answered how I wanted to.

Guess what, your remained, and even though I didn't answer you in the fashion I would of like, they were edited.

This will be deleted as well, because you have commented on my reply to Yib, and that reply was because he got something totally stuffed up.

Smart stuff.  Now name the 6 or more.

some_other_bozo

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2009, 02:05:36 PM »
Ummmm...if I may quote:

 "whatever"

now can we please get back to discussing how crap ebay are?

I find that infinitely more entertaining.

BOZO

*CountessA*

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2009, 02:07:23 PM »
It will depend on legislation pertaining to online auctions, and that's where it gets murky.

Ideally, it would be good to see the legislation being very clear about this, so that eBay will inform its members that shill bidding leads eBay to see that members are charged with a criminal offence. But if that were to happen, the demand for police investigation into allegations of shill-bidding when eBay does nothing (or says there is no shill-bidding according to its "sophisticated" technology) would be high, and it would open a can of worms.

Do I believe eBay is nodding and turning a blind eye to real and large-scale shill-bidding? Yes.

Do I believe they can detect the shill-bidding in question? Potentially, yes. You see, I don't believe that eBay have sophisticated algorithms in place to detect serious or professional shill-bidding. I believe the naked eye can see examples of shill-bidding - or at least see highly suspicious behaviour that gives a high probability of shill-bidding - and that it would certainly be POSSIBLE to have such algorithms in place to check ALL BIDDING ACTIVITY ON eBAY (or even bidding activity on shill-bidding-prone items). But I don't believe any such algorithm IS in place.

I truly do not.

We know without question that the majority, if not all, shill-bidding is the result of eBay members reporting instances to eBay. If no one bothered reporting the most blatant shill-bidding, would it be picked up at all by eBay?

The jury is still out, but it seems that they are shaking their heads...
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

*Yibida*

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2009, 02:25:43 PM »




:)

*CountessA*

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2009, 02:27:31 PM »
 :hijack: :marvin: :thanks:
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

*Yibida*

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #30 on: September 17, 2009, 02:28:55 PM »


Nuf said as tello put's it...

bobbybigbear

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #31 on: September 17, 2009, 02:47:21 PM »
Scuse me, er, looking for an emoticon with a playing field that is way out of level. Oh and some people running around with diapers, to cover some rear ends, just post them I'll drop by and pick them up.

As stated, SHILL BIDDING IS ILLEGAL. FULL BLOODY STOP.

tellomon

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #32 on: September 17, 2009, 02:50:02 PM »
"The B@zturd Love Child of Comix & a News Organization"

*Yibida*

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2009, 02:52:43 PM »


Nuf said as tello put's it...

Leave me out of this.



No way dude..guilty by association....remember? you threw that at me last week.... SLAM !

some_other_bozo

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #34 on: September 17, 2009, 02:54:06 PM »
Scuse me, er, looking for an emoticon with a playing field that is way out of level. Oh and some people running around with diapers, to cover some rear ends, just post them I'll drop by and pick them up.

As stated, SHILL BIDDING IS ILLEGAL. FULL BLOODY STOP.

I prefer my butt nekky and diaper free

 ;D

BOZO

tellomon

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #35 on: September 17, 2009, 03:09:46 PM »
....if your so observant how come you don't see I wear a skirt?....

I thot that's a Kilt.
"The B@zturd Love Child of Comix & a News Organization"

*Yibida*

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #36 on: September 17, 2009, 03:16:33 PM »
....if your so observant how come you don't see I wear a skirt?....

I thot that's a Kilt.


Tomata ~/~ Tomatoe...same ...

bobbybigbear

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2009, 03:55:50 PM »
The only time it's not a kilt is when the dude wearing it stands on his head, then it's disgusting.

Now back on topic.

How much influence do you think it would take, to make Google to stop putting the cache url on it's searches.

Would ebay have enough pull to do that.................?

Because Google was one of my best research tools into trolls and using what they said all over the web to hang them with facts, in their own words.

Members of my forum had access to the proof because I first posted their words, then the URL to the cache so people couldn't say the posts were doctored.

Indeed, the cache showed edited posts from forums and who edited them and when, and I still have them, however, it appears now when trying to research threads on shill bidding, Google does not show a cache at all.

It also has come to my attention over the last few months that caches are disappearing to ceratin sites I used to watch, and this is what I mean about Police never being able to catch these things on the internet, because:

A, they cannot barge into a company like ebay without strong starting evidence, a warrent would never be granted for seizure of computers, they would fear being sued.
B, they do not have enough staff and resouces to be able to allow a place like ebay to trade while they did an investigation if it remained trading, and they know, any evidence that there is, is certainly not in ebays office.

Now, after a year of exposing Trolls, the caches are drying up on those sites.


Nah, probably just another conspiracy theory heh.   But there was one cache I found from a site who were really ticked off about it happening ( NOT HERE, BACK OFF ), AND THE SITE WAS VERY MUCH ALIGNED TO EBAY, AND NOW BOTH SEEM TO BE OFF LIMITS TO CACHES.

Philip.Cohen

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2009, 04:19:23 PM »
This is starting to look more and more like the "sand pit" that the children were playing in over at eBay.

Now hear this, eBay has nothing but the most unsophisticated of data matching system for checking out reports of shill bidding, for instance, if you report a person who you know for a fact is bidding up items that he has had someone else list (one of my my experiences), no matter how many times the item/s are "sold" to that shilling person, and relisted probably as "buyer did not pay", eBay will not find any connection between the shill and the listing person, because there is no matching data. In other words there is no "sophistication" in eBay's system, it does not look at patterns of bidding, etc, that would better expose the possiblity/probability of shill bidding.

And why don't they do more? Because it is not in their financial interest to do so. As I have said in my linked rant, if they actually did something effective it may well decimate the "professional" sellers from whom they receive most of their revenue. It's as simple as that. It's about time governmental consumer affairs regulators gave them a good shake ...
“Today we’re dealing with phase two or phase three [he can’t even remember which one] of disruptive innovation. We’ve had the disruption, now we must disrupt our own disruption.”—John Donahoe (2007).

bobbybigbear

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #39 on: September 17, 2009, 04:43:01 PM »
Exactly, their verification system is so poor, and their technology so poor, they ban members from the same family, because they use the same IP Address.

That's why they rely on others getting details of those they can.  I can imagine some day a resort will take them to court because a tourist will do the wrong thing and get their IP banned, or a business where there are hundreds of employees using the one IP, technology....?

Pfffft, an IP checker Like " Whats my IP ", and pay a subscription for.  The one thing about my communications with Shane was just about how stupid they really are.

Nobody will touch them though, NSW is flat broke, and the Hospitals are going to crap as people die in the waiting rooms. Who is going to cough up millions for a complete investigation.

I feel really sorry for all the genuine people, who believe in what they are doing , for nothing, while a select few get paid and sit back directing traffic towards the target to shill bid.

Poddy

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #40 on: September 17, 2009, 04:45:41 PM »
Phil,

On very many occasionsin the past I have spent many hours on line with 'live help' and have sent countless emails to so called 'Trust & Safety' with only a small return for my efforts.

My concerns were fake items (iPod), scam sellers and large sellers shilling.

On all occasions I provided proof positive and still there was very little done which led me to conclude that eBay turn a blind eye to it and in fact encourage the activities.

Ebay if you get to read this, be aware that more and more people and authorities are being made aware of your activities.

*CountessA*

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #41 on: September 17, 2009, 04:48:00 PM »
Philip, I think most of us agree that eBay doesn't have some wonderfully sophisticated method in place to spot shill-bidding.

In fact, eBay cannot spot shill-bidding that is obvious with a bit of cross-referencing and data matching done by... (shock horror) REAL LIVE HUMANS.

If we see a lessening of buyers willing to bid on online auctions, that may well be a factor - that buyers are becoming fed up with seeing patterns of behaviour that strongly suggest shill-bidding.
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

*barny*

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #42 on: September 17, 2009, 04:57:07 PM »
At one point in Australia, not that long ago, this practice was completely outlawed in the Real Estate Industry, where it was rife.  They regulated that by making all potential bidders register to bid with their real ID details, and I think that is exactly the same with traditional auctions

In most states real estate auctions are allowed to have "vendor bids"... the number of these bids allowed varies from state to state.

This is shill bidding by another name, but is legal...

In fact, I would like to see Bobbie back up his statement that "shill bidding is illegal", with some references to acts of parliament, or state fair trading laws.. Coz I'm a bit hazy on this aspect

 :wine:
If you try to fail, and succeed, what have you done ??

bobbybigbear

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2009, 05:18:20 PM »
No worries Barny, although the law is there, it will never get used, but I am so used to skeptics, that it seems I am the only person who seems to be always asked to prove a statement, while others, get asked to prove something and silence reigns.
Speaking of reign, we could use some RAIN, it's 30 something here, and on the coast, must be hot in land.

I'll go and see if I can find the email from my young bloke, I won't leave you hanging.

bobbybigbear

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2009, 05:37:24 PM »

OK this is an abreviated form of the Act.
I cannot put all of the detail here, obviously as he is a serving officer, but what he tells me is that offences are open to the interpretation, that any victim of shill bidding would consider paying a higher price than had the shill not occured, then they would find the act of shill bidding offensive.
It is also covered under another act under this Collection of Law regarding using a conveyance for deceptive behaviour, which shilling is.

This law can also be used to prosecute Trolls, and those who manipulate others into trolling, as has been my case, for several years.
The fact that I have so many emails sent to me by people who received them from those involved, which clearly lie, and are used to extoll the virtue of another site, and gives the URL to that site, could be proved in a court of law.
The problem though, as I have stated ad nauseum, the Police will not act, despite a direct report to a Police Superintendent, who viewed the material and promised action.

Now my next post will be deleated, as it should, but I hope it stays here long enough to show you what happens to anyone who crosses this gang of ferals.
They have turned down offers of a face to face at my place, and they certainly have my address, but they send numerous emails like the one I will post at exaclty 5.45pm here, in 10 minutes.  Mods please leave it long enough for people to read, just so they understand why I retaliate to BS, because idiots actually do this because they believe the lies of these ferals.










474.17 Using a carriage service to menace, harass or cause offence

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if:

(a) the person uses a carriage service; and

(b) the person does so in a way (whether by the method of use or

the content of a communication, or both) that reasonable

persons would regard as being, in all the circumstances,

menacing, harassing or offensive.

Penalty: Imprisonment for 3 years.

(2) Without limiting subsection (1), that subsection applies to

menacing, harassing or causing offence to:

(a) an employee of the NRS provider; or

(b) an emergency call person; or

(c) an employee of an emergency service organisation; or

(d) an APS employee in the Attorney-General’s Department

acting as a National Security Hotline call taker.

*smee*

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2009, 05:53:39 PM »
its 5.53pm

bobbybigbear

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2009, 05:54:57 PM »
Didn't last long did it.

Liisa-Sx

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2009, 05:55:01 PM »
I saw it , was only here for a brief moment.
They said there would be cake....and there WAS!

bobbybigbear

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2009, 06:02:58 PM »
I have got about another 100 or so of those, but I won't risk showing them and getting suspended, if anyone asks Liisa, you can tell them.

It's not so much what they say, but it's knowing the spineless gutter trash won't come and face me, and got involved through the lies of others, just to shut me up and get me off the net, and from telling the truth about them.

That's why I am so vehemently opposed to the type of moderation that leaves a persons, ill founded comments standing, and the truth deleted.
It gives a totally different perspective on the thread and those commenting on it.

It's just garbage, and surprises me that of all places where victims of RT trolls gather, the same things happen.

Does nobody learn anything....?


Philip.Cohen

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Re: Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2009, 08:16:28 PM »
Please, let's get one thing clear, a vendor bid that is disclosed as such at the moment it is made is not a "shill" bid: there is no intention to deceive; the seller is simply stating that he will not sell for less. There has to be the intention to deceive for any such action to be fraudulent. Vendor bidding, if it is not disclosed as such at the moment the bid is made, has such intention and therefore is criminal fraud.

I will again make the distinction between on-line auctions and attended auctions:

In the case of attended auctions, regardless of the law, there is still no way of stopping the vendor from having another person (or the auctioneer, if he is unscrupulous) making/taking shill bids. Even if the auctioneer is scrupulous, there is no way of connecting the vendor to anyone else registered to bid (in the case of a shill, up to the reserve price). People who attend auctions should know that they have to be very careful.

On the other hand, every detail of the on-line auction is digitally recorded (there can be no bids taken from insects climbing up the wall) and if a truly sophisticated algorithm was applied to that bidding data a scale of probability of shill bidding could be published and bidders given the opportunity to decide whether they wanted to bid on any given auction so evaluated. This is never likely to happen voluntarily at eBay as it is not in their financial interests to do so. The only thing that will make eBay, or any other online auction do the right thing, is government intervention and probably independent auditing of any process at that.

They used to have government inspectors in the meat works to make sure things were being done properly; why not at eBay to force them to stop aiding and abetting unscrupulous sellers to defraud buyers?
“Today we’re dealing with phase two or phase three [he can’t even remember which one] of disruptive innovation. We’ve had the disruption, now we must disrupt our own disruption.”—John Donahoe (2007).