Author Topic: PayPal payment - no delivery (merchant, not on eBay) (Read 16662 times)

tellomon · « **on:** August 15, 2009, 01:33:44 AM »

Get a load of this:

Awhile back, my buddy Russ made an online purchase from a seller in Canada. I let him use my payPoo & he gave me the cash.

The deal went bad: no delivery. No email replies.

We filed a complaint/dispute.

Here's the recent (not to be the final) outcome:

Resolution of Buyer Complaint Case # PP-752-437-563
Thursday, August 13, 2009 5:48 PM
From:
This sender is DomainKeys verified
"service@paypal.com" <service@paypal.com>
Add sender to Contacts
To:
Ron@tello.com
Hello Ron,

After careful review, we have concluded our investigation of the Buyer
Complaint described below.

We have decided in your favor, however, we were unable to recover any funds
from the seller's account. As stated in the PayPal User Agreement, recovery
of funds associated with a Buyer Complaint cannot be guaranteed.

Please know that we will make our best effort to recover the funds in
question if they become available in the seller's account in the future and
will take appropriate action against the seller. Such action may include
issuing a warning, a temporary restriction, or terminating the account. But NOTHING about internet fraud!!!
Keep in mind that PayPal uses a number of factors to determine when to take
action, including member complaints. Due to privacy laws, we cannot discuss
the details of any action taken. We hope you understand our policy and that
it assures you that you are safe using PayPal. Except now.

-----------------------------------
Transaction Details
-----------------------------------

Seller's Name: FSR Services
Seller's Email: sales@teamaor.ca
Seller's Transaction ID: 5JD158691V279912S

Transaction Date: Jun 30, 2009
Transaction Amount: -$267.80 USD
Your Transaction ID: 2EB080635Y2931209
Case Number: PP-752-437-563

Buyer's Transaction ID: 2EB080635Y2931209

Note: is financially responsible for Ronald C*****'s account and is
responding on Ronald Culley's behalf regarding any issues with this
transaction.

-----------------------------------
What to Do Next
-----------------------------------

This case is now closed. No further action is required by you at this time.

-----------------------------------
Other Details
-----------------------------------

To make sure future transactions proceed smoothly, we suggest you visit the
PayPal site and click the Security Center link located at the bottom of any
page. There you will find tips on how to avoid fraudulent sellers in the
"Fraud Prevention Tips for Buyers" section.

Thanks,

PayPal
Protection Services Department

Please do not reply to this email. This mailbox is not monitored and you
will not receive a response. For assistance, log in to your PayPal account
and click the Help link in the top right corner of any PayPal page.

BC:PP-752-437-563:R2:USD267.80:07/25/2009:2EB080635Y2931209

----------------------------------------------------------------

PayPal Email ID PP805

Our next move is to contact the local Constable in the seller's neighbourhood.

Any other suggestions welcome here!

C):-{= <" paypal....pffftttt. what a LOAD!!!! "<<

*smee* · « **Reply #1 on:** August 15, 2009, 01:59:18 AM »

Well there you go ! , I always knew the seller protection was non existant but it would appear as though there is no buyer protection either !!!! Have I read that right they have found in your favour but arent paying you back !!!???????

I rest my case your honour !!!!

tellomon · « **Reply #2 on:** August 15, 2009, 02:02:26 AM »

Have I read that right they have found in your favour but arent paying you back !!!???????

I take it that way.

Makes me wanna hang out on the guns thread.......

My previous experience with sort of fuss is [that] paypoo will only issue a refund AFTER they get it from the seller. If the seller's coffers are dry, the buyer is SOL.

Ask around. It's true.

And fraudulent, regardless of PP's UA.

Poddy · « **Reply #3 on:** August 15, 2009, 02:33:14 AM »

Where are the PayPal apologists when you need them???

Hiding under a rock I expect

tellomon · « **Reply #4 on:** August 15, 2009, 02:50:00 AM »

Who needs apologists? I need PROTAGONISTS! Champions! Super Heroes! Dragon Slayers!!!!

C):-{= <" pro bono mercenaries? "<<

Liisa-Sx · « **Reply #5 on:** August 15, 2009, 03:20:01 AM »

Tello were the paypal funds done via a credit card or existing PP funds? If it was a credit card try a chargeback with the bank. BEWARE paypal may stall till the chargeback time limit is over as Your bank takes the chargeback funds form paypals merchant bank, paypal then have to chase the seller for the recovery not you.

If they've closed the case then rest assured they are NOT still chasing up your refund! and they consider it game over. Do not accept this. Paypal will only tell you it's closed so that you wouldn't do exactly what it is you're going to do, if possible, IE: charge back as they lose money.

Isn't paypal authorized to take it from the linked accounts? I know they have done it in the past many times If the person has a bank account linked in their PP profile.

Make sure you file claims with both Ebay/Paypal. (CALL them both) If you paid by Paypal,that money is supposed to be insured; thats the reason they want you to use paypal. You did a dispute? Ebay will have record of information and so will paypal. Call them,dont try to resolve online, it's useless most of the time.

Demand your money back as per the Buyer protection they offer do not accept no.
Ask Ebay for the Sellers contact details as well.

Do you have a Fair trading type department, or a financial services department you can contact if all else fails.

I repeat call them and keep calling do not give up.

A side note:
There's something even bigger at play when you deal with Paypal on an issues like this. Paypal have taken their fee (30c + 2.9% of the transaction amount or whatever it is now) from the payment you sent, and withheld it from the seller, a payment that turned out to be a fraud. Now, Paypal have received money from an action they know to be fraudulent, but they are still going to keep that money. Sound right to you?

Paypal say they were able to return 0.00 to the buyer, which is not true, they could refund their fee, taken FROM the seller for the transaction, as they should not and would not hold on to that if the funds had been recoverable. Food for thought...

tellomon · « **Reply #6 on:** August 15, 2009, 03:28:29 AM »

Food for thought...

Huh! A major FEAST I say!!!!!

Yes, the funds were from my bank card.

I'll get Russ to see this, soon.

I love yer thinking!

THX!

Liisa-Sx · « **Reply #7 on:** August 15, 2009, 03:38:59 AM »

De nada Tello,
Just Impliment a chargeback via your bank.. Paypal will then have to chase the seller.

Suerte

tellomon · « **Reply #8 on:** August 15, 2009, 03:57:52 AM »

My memory is a bit vague on this, but, the last time I did a chargeback on PP, they messed me up & still lost out.

Procedure or propaganda, I was not happy in the end.

I need more input from other experienced losers........

Mebbe I'll chat with a bank cop.

*CountessA* · « **Reply #9 on:** August 15, 2009, 12:05:01 PM »

Tello, was this purchase through eBay?

If so, then the complaint has been processed under the wrong policy.

Quote

After careful review, we have concluded our investigation of the Buyer
Complaint described below.

We have decided in your favor, however, we were unable to recover any funds
from the seller's account. As stated in the PayPal User Agreement, recovery
of funds associated with a Buyer Complaint cannot be guaranteed.

It should not have been the Buyer Complaint policy, but the Buyer Protection policy - IF the purchase was made on eBay. If it wasn't, the purchase is not covered in the same way.

They're explained here.

To quote, you're covered by the Buyer Protection policy if you

Use PayPal to purchase an eligible item on eligible eBay sites such as eBay websites where PayPal has been integrated as a payment option. Excluded sites are, but not limited to: eBay India and other 3rd party websites such as Internet Auction Company (IAC), Mercado Libre, Classified sites such as Kijiji, Gumtree, Stubhub, Craig’s list etc.
Pay for the full amount of the item with one payment. Items purchased with multiple payments – like a deposit followed by a final payment – are not eligible.

Of course you also need to have used the eBay Pay Now tab, or have selected the "Pay for eBay items" or whatever it is in PayPal.

To quote again, "If you see the PayPal buyer protection message "Pay with PayPal and you’re covered" or alternative message provided by PayPal in the “Payment Section” of the item listing, and if PayPal finds in your favor on your Claim, PayPal will reimburse you for the full purchase price of the item and original shipping costs – with no cap on the amount per item. If the buyer protection message includes a cap on coverage (such as the message on eBay.au above), and if PayPal finds in your favor, then PayPal will reimburse you for the full purchase price of the item and original shipping costs, up to the coverage cap specified in the terms and conditions or buyer protection message. The amount of coverage varies based on the eBay website where the purchase is made."

HOWEVER... if the purchase was NOT made on eBay, your purchase is treated differently - being covered (if we can be sarcastic for a moment) by the Buyer Complaint Policy.

Quote

It is PayPal’s process to help you resolve a problem with a seller through the PayPal Resolution Center for purchases that are not eligible for PayPal Buyer Protection.

The PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy is similar to PayPal Buyer Protection in that it enables buyers to file Disputes for Items Not Received (INR), or for items that are Significantly Not as Described (SNAD).
However, recovery of any amounts is not guaranteed and is limited to the amounts that PayPal can recover from the seller’s Account, even if PayPal makes a final decision in your favor.

Before we make any more suggestions about how to help you, can you tell us whether it was an on-eBay purchase?

tellomon · « **Reply #10 on:** August 15, 2009, 02:52:11 PM »

Before we make any more suggestions about how to help you, can you tell us whether it was an on-eBay purchase?

It was a NON-ebay purchase. A regular, 1 of thousands of online merchants who accept PP. (They took my money & failed to deliver or reply to inquiry emails, remember?)

All the info is in good order & PP recognized this, and thus, responded accordingly as far as I have already divulged.

Now what say?

THX!

*CountessA* · « **Reply #11 on:** August 15, 2009, 03:33:29 PM »

Right - non-eBay.

Then Liisa's post is absolutely correct, I think.

The goods didn't arrive. Your credit card should protect you in this instance (if your card provider's user agreement is anything like that of Australian credit card providers). Do you happen to have a link to your card provider's UA?

Assuming it does have this same provision, go in to your card provider/issuing bank. Tell them the goods didn't arrive. Have all the print-out information - the order, payment information, etc. Indicate it was a PayPal payment, so your chargeback will be against PayPal. Tell your bank (in person) you have not been reimbursed for the item not arriving. PayPal should have something like two weeks in which to respond to the investigation.

Do not cave in - do this! Let PayPal worry about the dodgy seller; you should focus on getting your money back through PayPal.

Alternatively, you can report the seller under whatever consumer laws you have - or even do this IN ADDITION to your chargeback.

tellomon · « **Reply #12 on:** August 15, 2009, 04:31:13 PM »

Uh, yeah......

What you said.

Thx for the new thread!

Can ya tack it at the top? I promise I won't ask to have it LOCKED!

*FluffyDuckee* · « **Reply #13 on:** August 15, 2009, 05:26:25 PM »

Well I already knew sellers weren't protected through Paypal but didn't realise that Paypal did not do as they say and do not underwrite claims for buyers.

It would seem nothing ever ever comes out of Paypals pocket. Therefore although Paypal are convenient for speed of transactions for funds already existing and convenient for money exchange between countires, it would appear they are not safe at all.

I am shocked - surely there is a way to make them accountable??? I don't know of any other business who infer they will protect the buyer that doesn't when push comes to shove.

Poddy · « **Reply #14 on:** August 15, 2009, 05:40:18 PM »

Kacsa,

When was the last Polly promise you heard?

What's good for pollys is good for PayPal apparenty!

Tarred with the same brush??

*FluffyDuckee* · « **Reply #15 on:** August 15, 2009, 05:48:00 PM »

I think so Poddy. Both full of broken promises?

Hey Paypal, in case you read this: We don't hate you, we want you to work, your concept is great, the way one can exchange money is great etc etc.

All we want you to do is what you say or infer to protect your customers. That's all.

tellomon · « **Reply #16 on:** August 15, 2009, 05:58:36 PM »

All we want you to do is what you say or infer to protect your customers. That's all.

Russ wants his money BACK! No more broken promises!!!!

Poddy · « **Reply #17 on:** August 15, 2009, 06:00:44 PM »

Tello,

Is the merchant still around on the net?

tellomon · « **Reply #18 on:** August 15, 2009, 06:17:25 PM »

Don't know. It was Russ' deal, remember?

*CountessA* · « **Reply #19 on:** August 15, 2009, 06:20:09 PM »

The IMPLICATION with PayPal is that purchases are fully protected.

PayPal then explicitly say that they don't guarantee refunds off-eBay if they can't obtain the funds from the seller. This is of course stated in the Buyer Complaint policy page - "However, recovery of any amounts is not guaranteed and is limited to the amounts that PayPal can recover from the seller’s Account, even if PayPal makes a final decision in your favor."

However, consumer legislation overrides company policy. Company policy overrides individual terms of sale. It's a decreasing series of enforceable obligations and rights. You'll notice that a seller on eBay, for instance, has nothing on which to stand if his TOS state "No refunds", and the buyer lodges a SNAD claim. The seller's TOS are superseded by eBay's policies. eBay too tried to enforce something which was against Australian legislation - PayPal only as a payment method - but that could be stopped because Australia's consumer legislation wields a bigger stick than eBay's/PayPal's company policies in Australia - in other words, it's more enforceable, as long as people are prepared to push the issue. (Same principle with seller TOS - such sellers can include silly TOS in their listings, and a lot of buyers might take the words of the seller to mean there's no recourse, but push the issue and you can find out how unenforceable the seller's TOS are.)

All of this just means that PayPal may be subject to legislation in the US which overrides PayPal's policies - if push comes to shove. I don't know... You'd need to check the legislation to see if you have any consumer protection.

After all - and here's the thing that I consider particularly culpable - PayPal are relying on a "get out of the responsibility" disclaimer that is not displayed clearly at the point of your purchase. You are NOT told when paying, "PayPal will not protect you if there's a problem with this purchase, unless PayPal can recover the funds from the seller". PayPal have something to which they can point after the fact, saying, "See? Our policy is that we don't cover the purchase cost", but they don't inform you, the consumer, sufficiently at the POINT OF PURCHASE.

This was enough in the case of Evagora vs eBay, and it may be enough in any instance of fraud where payment is made through PayPal - if you push the issue.

NOTICE: This thread is temporarily pinned at the request of Telloman, as it is an "active file" requiring helpful input.

tellomon · « **Reply #20 on:** August 15, 2009, 06:25:04 PM »

NOTICE: This thread is temporarily pinned at the request of Tellomon, as it is an "active file" requiring helpful input.

Now I really am somebody! Thx tessa!

*smee* · « **Reply #21 on:** August 15, 2009, 06:39:33 PM »

did you notice the word temporarily in there Tello ?
a 30 second cameo perhaps ?

tellomon · « **Reply #22 on:** August 15, 2009, 06:42:28 PM »

That's ok.

Have you seen the hit counter on the "Tello Files" thread?

More than 15 minnits going on there, nyuck nyuck.....

Back ON TOPIC: paypay sucks!

*Yibida* · « **Reply #23 on:** August 26, 2009, 11:08:27 PM »

Quote from: tellomon on August 15, 2009, 06:25:04 PM

NOTICE: This thread is temporarily pinned at the request of Tellomon, as it is an "active file" requiring helpful input.

Now I really am somebody! Thx tessa!

Hah!...thought you could sneek this thread past the Yibster eh?...think again dude...LOLOL

tellomon · « **Reply #24 on:** September 06, 2009, 06:34:27 PM »

More Paypoo Blues in the News:

Update on my story.

Russ and I [finally] went to my Bank for a PP chargeback. We filled out the papers, which were to be faxed to Bank HQ.

The CS Rep told me they had to cancel my Bankcard as a standard precaution.

I said "fine".

I get a new one in 2 weeks. My checks are still good.

The balance sucks. Something's up.

So, if I owe any of you mugs money.....forget about it!

That is all for now.

*CountessA* · « **Reply #25 on:** September 06, 2009, 07:03:17 PM »

"The balance sucks. Something's up" ...?

The chargeback is really the only practical solution to this horrifying saga of loss and tragedy.

tellomon · « **Reply #26 on:** September 06, 2009, 08:27:14 PM »

Yeah.

But there's no copyright or trademark violations....

*Brum6y* · « **Reply #27 on:** September 07, 2009, 03:57:58 PM »

Quote from: tellomon on September 06, 2009, 06:34:27 PM

The CS Rep told me they had to cancel my Bankcard as a standard precaution.

A pain in it's own way - but makes sense.... If the fraudster^** has valid card details, they can put through another debit - and youy'll have to chase THAT transaction too.

(^** and I don't exclude Paypal from this category)

tellomon · « **Reply #28 on:** September 08, 2009, 01:26:03 PM »

Lookie here; SAME story, different buyer:

Is "Paypal Protection" a Big Illusion?
Sep 7, 2009 2:36 PM

* Report

Hello, a couple of months ago, I bought an item for just a bit over $100 dollars, and 5 weeks later,had sill not received so I filed a non-receipt dispute with Paypal. The answer came back today. The dispute was "decided in my favor" but since there are no funds available in the sellers account, they are very sorry the cannot help me any further.

So, "Paypal Buyer Protection" just looks like a big illusion to me. Guess I need to try to charge back with my credit card company now,

===============================
After careful review, we have concluded our investigation of the Buyer Complaint described below.

We have decided in your favor, however, we were unable to recover any funds from the seller's account. As stated in the PayPal User Agreement, recovery of funds associated with a Buyer Complaint cannot be guaranteed.

Please know that we will make our best effort to recover the funds in question if they become available in the seller's account in the future and will take appropriate action against the seller. Such action may include issuing a warning, a temporary restriction, or terminating the account.
=================================
Keep in mind that PayPal uses a number of factors to determine when to take action, including member complaints. Due to privacy laws, we cannot discuss the details of any action taken. We hope you understand our policy and that it assures you that you are safe using PayPal.
[/quote]
Reply

http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Paypal/Is-Quotpaypal-Protectionquot/520149534

*CountessA* · « **Reply #29 on:** September 08, 2009, 01:59:39 PM »

Yes, the difficulty is that the Buyer Complaint Policy really does not guarantee anything. Its safety IS illusory.

The Buyer Protection Policy is certainly better, but it's not a warranty.