Pay Pay sellers protection - its a figment of their imagination

[*smee*]

read the story on this link .... more proof that paypal sellers protection does not exist ...
the seller provided ample proof of delivery IMO and still nothing,  and of course the postal service wouldnt pay despite the fact that the seller had taken the precaution of paying for insurance as they had proof they had delivered it 
http://consumerist.com/2009/12/paypal-abandons-another-scammed-seller.html

[low-enghooi]

Two things here:

1. I use paypal since 2004. Am happy with it, or otherwise I can't purchase many things from oversea seller. The only time I have to file a dispute was when a seller run away (been hospitalized for too long, replied my email but never make it to send my coins.) Received the refund via paypal without much hassles. I sold a few things over the years, and so far only positive experience.

2. I have had bad experience with USPS and will pay for the expedited mail if USPS is the only choice and I need the item. Expensive but I consider that as the only safe way with USPS. I have had a USPS registered mail reached after 3 months. Few other regular mail (nothing expensive, but few pieces of very cheap notes) went missing. Another came, but with the content stolen (a cheap note cost $5).

I have bought things from various high risk (or less likely people buy things from) countries, including Iran, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, India, Philippines, Indonesia. I have even send cash to Saudi Arabia. All without a single problem. If there is one small thing I want to complain, that is some seller from these countries doesn't know how to pack properly. As long as the item arrive safely, I am OK. Reason being I can't get from other place.

But USPS gave me the most headache, so I stay away from them.

Thanks.

[*smee*]

of course you are happy with it ... you are mainly  the buyer .... I actually agree , pay pal is a good and useful tool when all goes well ...
its the non existant seller protection that I have an issue with... well its not even that, I dont care if there isnt any seller protection what I actually obeject too is that they tell lies and say that there is !

I am still yet to find an actual person who has been paid by pay pal under seller protection ... and thats because it doesnt appear to exist !!!!! 

[low-enghooi]

OK

[gr8-expectations]

paymate are (apparently) really good to deal with and offer a better service than paypal, you can include paymate in your listing html and get paid and pay that way, apparently they are also much faster at processing withdrawals to bank, much more serious about claims and protecting seller and consumer and generally better all round... much like pepsi max..


i used to put the html on my listings but stopped when noone elected to use it, i have not had personal experience with them but all reports have been good, however i would not put it past preypal given their market dominance to try to buy them out or partner and ruin it lol, paymate was widely discussed during the "paypal only" dramas and we thought maybe they would be included on ebay checkout, that didnt happen but apparently, again hearsay, they struck a deal with ebay that got them onto ebay usa checkout, not sure if that has happened yet, it was announced but that was a while back

paymate were one of the few who had a genuine case against paypal ebay for damages which were easy to prove and possibly why they got the concessions they did, if indeed those concessions were enacted

[low-enghooi]

I am still yet to find an actual person who has been paid by pay pal under seller protection ... and thats because it doesnt appear to exist !!!!! 

Should not be too difficult to setup a test case here.

[lacey]

My hand is up.

I got a refund once and I only needed it once, from Paypal.  Bought a coin album online and when it arrived, it had definately been used and was filthy dirty.  I got a refund, less postage but at least she was out of pocket plus the album.  As for her, i couldn't care less as her listing was just lies.

[*CountessA*]

Lacey, Smee was talking about seller protection - i.e., for the seller, not for the buyer.

I don't like PayPal as a buyer... Think about this. If I pay by card and the item either doesn't arrive or it's a fake or completely damaged, and the seller does not refund me (in full) or send me another item as a replacement, I have protection under consumer legislation in Australia. I don't NEED PayPal's buyer protection because I can a) have a chargeback on my card to receive a FULL refund of the amount (including postage), or b) go to Small Claims, report the seller under the TPA, etc.

There is a loophole, though: if the seller's business goes into receivership and I haven't received a refund (or the purchased item), I would be an "unsecured creditor". That is always dicey. My best bet in that case is to ensure I've paid by card, and to institute a chargeback on the grounds of "haven't received" asap (before the receivership status is confirmed), before there is no money at all in the seller's business account or that account is frozen.

BEST OF ALL: Don't pay until the item is ready to pick up, and inspect it before you hand over the payment.

[*smee*]

Lacey thats great but that is buyer protection ... I am talking about SELLER protection.. the buyer is always protected and has to prove nothing really provided claim is lodged in time

[*smee*]

oh the Countes was too quick for me

[lacey]

   Sorry but, be warned, I often read things wrong as you will get used to.  is there a name for this condition,lol.  not sure.

[*smee*]

  Sorry but, be warned, I often read things wrong as you will get used to.  is there a name for this condition,lol.  not sure.

Mad cow disease ????? 

[wyzeguy60]

dislexmiopiousdemtianumbatious - don't try and google it !!!!!!!!!!! 

[low-enghooi]

I am talking about SELLER protection.. the buyer is always protected and has to prove nothing really provided claim is lodged in time

Sorry I am off topic.

Since there is no seller protection, can I use it against the dodgy seller on ebay?

[*CountessA*]

Dodgy sellers probably have "dodges" in place to avoid punitive action.

They're cunning, some of them...

[low-enghooi]

Sorry I don't understand.

In a way, paypal seller protection does work for these people. Why can't it work for all sellers?

Now, can I simply file a dispute with paypal for refund since I need not prove anything? Will ebay now tell me they don't have the expertise in coins to verify my claim?

[*Brum6y*]

Now, can I simply file a dispute with paypal for refund since I need not prove anything?

From all reports, you shouldn't have a problem. Just lodge a dispute, escalate to a claim and don't back down.  (Personally, I couldn't do it...)

Will ebay now tell me they don't have the expertise in coins to verify my claim?

They won't bother.  They'll stay out of it and Paypal will just pay the claim (IF the seller still has finds with them, that is!)

[low-enghooi]

They won't bother.  They'll stay out of it and Paypal will just pay the claim (IF the seller still has finds with them, that is!)

Quite different from what I understand thus far.

Consider this case:

Seller mis-described a coin (take a cleaned coin, but not mentioned in description) and sent by registered mail. When buyer lodge a report, seller is able to prove he sent out the coin, and paypal is happy. They don't have the expert and don't border about the mis-described item. No refund to the buyer.

Take another case, you buy something say cost you $1000. Seller sent out an empty envelope by registered mail. Again, seller is able to produce the proof, and paypal is happy. Again no refund to you.

In either case, who did paypal protect? Buyer or seller? Or worst, none, as paypal will freeze the seller account and take the money?

I am curious.

[*CountessA*]

The seller has protection in this case against a claim of INR (Item Not Received).

The seller does not have protection against SNAD (Significantly Not As Described).

If the buyer receives an empty package, he's honestly better off claiming SNAD rather than INR, because the seller can prove he sent something! So the buyer's alternative might be to lodge a SNAD claim and state:

"I paid for a collectable coin, and received only an empty package. I did not buy an empty package. This is deliberate fraud and I intend to initiate charges of criminal fraud against this seller as well. I want a full refund immediately."

... then it's almost certain that PayPal will instruct the buyer to send back "the item" to the seller. The buyer must do so by registered mail. It will make no difference whether or not the seller accepts the item; you don't have to have proof of delivery, only proof of its having been sent (if you're in Australia, that is, because of Australian laws). The registered post yellow form will provide that proof. PayPal will take the money from the seller upon being faxed a copy of the yellow form (well, not immediately. PayPal don't ever give back money "immediately". It might take a month or so of "investigations").

If the buyer describes the problem as being a "fake coin", it's more problematic. Then it becomes a case of "your word against his". It's better to examine the coin in the light of the description and image on the listing, and see if there's a discrepancy. Then put in a claim that justly describes the problem as "SNAD". Don't say it's a fake coin; just say it's not the same coin that was described in the listing (which will be true, if the coin in the listing is of a genuine coin).

It's all in the wording.

eBay don't know quite how to handle claims of fakes. But when it's SNAD items, the procedure is more straightforward.

This won't help if the description of the listing has been so vague that it is actually meaningless, and if the image is actually of the coin you receive. I would never suggest anyone lie about the coin they received; I just hope people have legitimate grounds about the description and/or image being WRONG so that the claim can be straightforward.

Again, the coin will need to be sent back by registered post, but that's better than being defrauded by a fake coin.

[*Brum6y*]

What Countessa said...

The rules are set up for the most simplistic of situations.  Real life is rarely so neat.

The 'proof' of sending or delivery is also next to useless.  As said above, it only proves something was sent.  It could be the coin you wanted, a reject pet rock or an empty box - there's no impartial authority to confirm the actual contents of the package.

It should also be noted that this is the same for return of goods as much as it is for the original shipping.

An example of how curious this can become is one episode where a buyer won a laptop, but when received, it had problems that were aparently not mentioned in the listing.  After failing to find satisfaction with the seller, the buyer had the laptop repaired and returned the faulty parts to the seller under a SNAD claim.  The refund paid for the repairs with a bit left over.  So the buyer ended up with a functional laptop with a little extra cash for his trouble. The seller wasn't happy but the buyer didn't care because of the seller's attitude.

But all the paperwork that Paypal required was quite in order...

[*smee*]

The 'proof' of sending or delivery is also next to useless.  As said above, it only proves something was sent.  It could be the coin you wanted, a reject pet rock or an empty box - there's no impartial authority to confirm the actual contents of the package

In all honesty no one can prove this failing Aust Post x-raying every package and every package being handed over the counter ... If you start worrying about this happening to you then Im sorry but online buying isnt for you ... and quite frankly I get sick of hearing of this possibility .... each day thousands of parcels get sent through Aust Post for eBay transactions and the amount of times an empty package has been sent would be minute in context to say the least..... and if it does well Countess has explained the best way to try and get your money back... there are a couple of other possibilities...... but really lets get real for the odd occassion this may occur the story of the possibility gets tossed around a bit too frequently IMO .... once again I will ask the question has anyone here actually ever received an empty package .... ever ..... once again I dont mean you heard a story about a mate of a mate that new a girl that bought something and received an empty package , I mean has this ever happened to you ?????? between us we would have had thousands of online transactions ... I would bet the number of instances if any of this occuring to us collectively could be counted on one hand ....

[wyzeguy60]

hi All
firstly to smee - i received an empty envelope from the USA that had been opened and resealed by customs. The coin was worth $40 and the action required against customs and australia post was simply not worth the hassle and headaches. The seller was never questioned as we have a good buying / selling relationship and he said he sent it - that is good enough for me.

secondly - items not as described is a tricky one. Ebay and paypal do not generally have the expertise to determine if an item is not what it should be. They are only taking the word of the buyer and seller in this scenario. My experience from coin friends is that ebay will generally not act on NAD if the person received something remotely resembling the coin listed. Sets and or bulk will hardly ever go in favor of buyer for this reason. It is simply impossible to photograph a 1000 coins individually and send every item exactly as described. If the buyer gets a 1000 junk coins against a listing that says 1000 excellent coins it won't stand up on NAD. Ebay have not got the experts to determine this nor have paypal.

best bet with coins is to purchase small and set up a relationship with a seller. This could be applied to all collectables

 

[*smee*]

firstly to smee - i received an empty envelope from the USA that had been opened and resealed by customs

Fair enough Wyzeguy but as you stated this was not a case of the seller sending an empty envelope , it was a matter of Customs not resealing it correctly ...... if I have read your post correctly ? it was not a deliberate act of cheating you out of your item 

[wyzeguy60]

hi smee - yes I should have made that clearer. It appeared it went missing at customs, definitely not the sellers fault.

[low-enghooi]

Hi all,

I once received an empty envelope from USA. I am not too sure if the envelope been opened and resealed. If it is, the work is too neat for my poor eyes. Anyway, that is a $5 worth of banknote and sent by regular mail. I ended up with nothing.

[*Brum6y*]

My dear friend Smee...

There is a way to determine the contents of a package - via a third party.

While this is impractical for the original shipping of items, I have experienced this exact process on the return of an item - through BidPay.

I had to forward the item to them and they then took up the issue with the seller.

I got my $120 back - but the trackable postage (required by BidPay) worked out at about $45, since international registered post was the cheapest option.

[shyer]

Yes packages do get sent with rubbish in them. I had a seller sell me rubbish that required three new parts to get working as advertised some $100 cost plus time worth about $100. Seller only sent me $50. I sent back faulty parts I had kept in case needed, to seller $10 registered post. Paypal then paid me original $300 I had paid crooked seller. Some times you do win.

[surf-inside]

PAYPAL seller protection is a corn maze.  The business rules around the protection program have more holes than swiss cheese. I have documented them and am building a web site, www.safe-pal.com that will allow sellers to input the details of the transaction and find out exactly what their coverage level is, how to maintain complaince with the seller protection program, look for obvious signs of fraud that Paypal can't even discover on their own.

As a large volume seller, I have had so many transactions go bad, where I lost merchandise and money, because of the flaws in the Paypal fraud detection software and the holes in the seller protection program.

It got so bad one Decembe, I was calling Payapl to tell them This transaction was fraudulent, and that one, and the other one, and one by one they began reversing transactions.

But what do you expect from a company who last year purchased their fraud detection software from a chinese company!?  This has got to be the most stupid thing any one company has ever done.  Why not give the wolves badges to guard the hen house?

I found a security flaw (many actually) that allows fraud to take place through paypal undetected.  As a software quality assurance analyst and developer, it took me about a month to nail down the procedure to defraud a seller using these gaps in security.

Thus safe-pal.com was born but is still under development.  It will be a free service available to sellers who will want an independent third party fraud detection system that surpasses the crappy and irresponsible way that Paypal handles fraud. As well as automate the business rules surrounding the PP seller protection plan.

I saved myself ... thousands of dollars in lost money and merchandise once I was able to identify the security gaps in the PP software. Its sad when you have to call them and tell them that they missed a fraudulent transaction and then 5 minutes later watch as transaction after another reverses before your eyes. 

I feel like I'm doing a better job than they are at their own business. 

Now Paypal is no longer going to be the preferred method of payment on Ebay. Ebay is opening the door to three other forms of payment processing services. 

But I've got Paypal by the balls.  Once I'm up and running, the true statistics about how they have failed to detect fraud (IP and geographic opposition is NOT fraud detection) should become known.

Keep your fingers crossed. that box of dog shite I sent to Ebay is about to hit the fan.

Mike

[*Brum6y*]

Interesting background on the software...

Did they buy it off eBay?

Seems like it's a possibility.


Welcome to the OZRT, Mike - Your background and experience is most interesting and I, for one, am quite interested to follow your efforts.

I have little doubt that your contributions and participation on this forum will be welcomed by all.

Welcome!

[surf-inside]

First of all, Thank you for having me.  I have become a fraud expert because I have lost tens of thousands of dollars in both merchandise and in money (chargebacks, bogus INR disputes, etc)

I have found a method that works for me. I have a local police offider who works with me to file a criminal complaint against the buyer when I discover he has defrauded me. For example,  a buyer in Canada requested an expensive Ipod. 10 days later he files an INR dispute.  I had tracking but it did not show signature delivery.  So I filed a report, and then my local police sent it to his local police in Vancouver, Canada. 

I also did a google search on his email address.  If a scammer is stupid and inexperience, he will create a fake ebay account but use his own paypal account. That primary address can be searched. I found he deleted his facebook page but I was able to retrieve a copy of it through google which caches these web pages for months.

I then emailed his friends through facebook and asked them to pressure him into dropping the dispute.  I also found his craigslist ads selling the merchandise he was stealing from buyers.  Once he found out I was onto him, he deleted everything, all of his craigslist postings, but I was able to recover them thanks to google cache.  His listings contained his real phone number (his ebay account contained completely fake information).  I called him at home and he was surprised to hear from me.  I told him that I had filed a police report and that the vancouver police would be investigating him.  If he dropped the dispute and returned my money I would cease to press charges.

THe next day he refunded me $460 USD.  but this is an arduous and time consuming task.  I was able to recover several thousand. In december alone I lost about 20,000 USD.  Primarily because of Paypal's inept fraud detection software.

Why would a transaction be permitted and Paypal recommend "shipping" when the ebay contact info is completely different than the Paypal contact info?  I discovered that bug by using GarageSale, which uses the ebay API to determine the shipping address, while their other product, GaragePAY uses the Paypal API to show the shipping addresss.

If there is a discrepency between the two, its a sure bet its a frauid.  Why does Ebay allow this?  The fact that there is a big discrepancy, should raise red flags all over the place. 

Thats just one of the things that I look for (in automation on my fraud detection engine).  My engine will contain many, many features and keep a list of paypal Seller Protection rules in a database so that sellers will know exactly what their risk is based on the above factor as well as others.

It just really angers me that paypal suggested that I ship products when the PP accounts were "phished" by people in other countries.  How can they not catch this, but i can?  What does this say about this this company? 

I have no faith or trust in them at all.

Mike
Surf-Inside

[da_ewok]

Thats just one of the things that I look for (in automation on my fraud detection engine).  My engine will contain many, many features and keep a list of paypal Seller Protection rules in a database so that sellers will know exactly what their risk is based on the above factor as well as others.

Just make sure you are protected - because you will become Public Enemy Number 1 and I don't say that lightly

[*CountessA*]

Mike, it sounds as though you're handling the problems very intelligently - and taking the only actions you can, given PayPal's and eBay's lack of what I would consider REAL fraud detection and protection.

[surf-inside]

Well, to be perfectly honest, our intention is to eventually sell the software to Paypal.  But as it is, they wouldn't buy it because it simplifies the corn maze of policy that is inherent in their existing protection program. It exposes the weaknesses. Nobody likes to be told their baby is ugly and thats exactly what Safe-Pal will do.

But the fraud detection engine might be something that we can market and then sell to  Paypal.  That is our goal. To help consumers, but then also to sell the engine to the evil empire.  If I can detect fraud better than they can, heck, I would have sold them that information for a lot less than 169 million dollars. 

But to heck with them, I will never join the evil empire. I shall and always will be a rebel fighter!   Looking for that gap that explodes the death star and ends an era of fraud and arrogance at their own wealth, gained illegally, in my opinion.

Mike

[*CountessA*]

I can envisage it... Safe-Pal doing battle with the dark-visaged PayPal clothed in a clunky metallic outfit, and then from PayPal's visor comes the devastating statement: "Safe-Pal... I am your father."

At least we know Darth Vader didn't win.