EBAY DROPS REQUIREMENT TO USE PAYPAL

[bnwt]

New accepted safer payment options for sellers


http://pages2.ebay.com.au/Hub/InsideSelling/Safer_Payment_Options

[*CountessA*]

What an excellent bit of news!

I had to get up from my sickbed to post about this. (I lost my voice last night after rehearsal; clearly I've still got a bit of recovery to do before the effects of the 'flu leave me.)

Sellers can now offer ONE or MORE of the three following payment methods:

  1. PayPal
  2. Paymate
  3. Merchant credit card

This means PayPal no longer has to be offered at all.

I'd suggest that there has never been a better time for sellers to start looking at getting a merchant account and payment gateway. It's worth having a word with your bank and asking about the various options available. This would be applicable for sellers who sell sufficiently to be considered as running a business. Compare the fees and compare the risks.

For hobby sellers who don't like PayPal, now you can offer Paymate instead.

This brings fairness back into play. It's a major step forward in the eBay arena.

[*Brum6y*]

WHY?

[*Brum6y*]

Hmmm.... this looks interesting:

Trade Practices Amendment (Australian Consumer Law) Bill (No. 1) 2009 - passed

Trade Practices Amendment (Australian Consumer Law) Bill (No. 2) 2010 - before parliament

(The titles on these citations may not be perfectly correct, but forgive me if they are not)

But I can't get to the Bill itself at the moment, the parliament house server seems unable to respond...

[bnwt]

The new Australian Consumer Law


http://www.freehills.com.au/5880.aspx

[bnwt]

Trade Practices Amendment (Australian Consumer Law) Bill (No. 1) 2010


http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;query=Id%3A%22legislation%2Fbillhome%2Fr4154%22

[bnwt]

eBay spokesman Mr Feiler said the ACCC had been informed of eBay's decision, and the regulator had welcomed the move.

"Given what happened two years ago, it made sense to keep them in loop,"

of course Daniel it had nothing to do with the new Consumer Law stating  "It implements general and specific consumer protections, including prohibitions against misleading and deceptive conduct and unconscionable conduct, and provisions covering unfair practices and consumer transactions (such provisions to operate on substantially the same basis as the current Trade Practices Act provisions)".

oh no eBay would NEVER do anything like that that would it ....

Daniel Feilure the reality is that eBay has been forced to jump through the loop

[*Brum6y*]

Trade Practices Amendment (Australian Consumer Law) Bill (No. 1) 2010


http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;query=Id%3A%22legislation%2Fbillhome%2Fr4154%22

That's the link I was having problems with - but it has just now opened for me....!

[*Brum6y*]

the reality is that eBay has been forced to jump through the loop

That's what I'm thinking... and it is the only credible explanation for eBay's 'decision'.


Call me a cynic - but in the case of eBay and PayPal, I have observed my cynicism is often conservative and the truth has been far more acrid.

[*Brum6y*]

Trade Practices Amendment (Australian Consumer Law) Bill (No. 1) 2010


http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;query=Id%3A%22legislation%2Fbillhome%2Fr4154%22

That's the link I was having problems with - but it has just now opened for me....!

... sigh ...

Now trying to download specific documents listed.... with the same problems.....

[bnwt]

read between the lines ......... eBay have been told to jump and do it blood quick smart as well

ACCC applauds eBay PayPal rule changes


http://www.dynamicbusiness.com.au/articles/articles-finance-cash-flow/accc-ebay-paypal-rule-changes-1515.html

[*CountessA*]

It's worth quoting this article in full, I think. (EDIT: quoting this article AGAIN in full, since I just realised BNWT has quoted it on the Media thread as well!)

ACCC applauds eBay PayPal rule changes
By David Olsen on Thursday, 13 May 2010

The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission welcomes the announcement by eBay that it will change the ebay.com.au website and payment policies to remove the requirement that sellers offer PayPal as a payment option.

ACCC ebayThe ACCC had been investigating complaints that eBay and its Australian subsidiaries, eBay Australia and New Zealand Pty Ltd and PayPal Australia Pty Ltd, may have been engaging in conduct that had the effect of, or was likely to have the effect of, substantially lessening competition in contravention of section 45 of the Trade Practices Act 1974. By forcing sellers to offer payment for goods via PayPal it was potentially forcing out potential alternatives through ubiquitous use of the payment system. market for competitors to offer alternative systems by making PayPal.

While the ACCC had not formed a final view, following meetings with senior eBay staff eBay has introduced and brought forward changes to its payments policy which the ACCC considers will give its members greater flexibility in choosing payment options.

“The ACCC welcomes the action taken by eBay which gives eBay sellers further choice as to the payment system they use, while ensuring consumers are offered safer payment options by all eBay sellers,” ACCC chairman Graeme Samuel said today.

It is not customary for the ACCC to refer to investigations that are not in the public arena, however a substantial number of complaints have been received about certain eBay policies which affect the offering and acceptance by eBay traders of online payment services. The ACCC considered a large amount of information as part of its investigation and considers this is an appropriate outcome.

“The ACCC acknowledges eBay’s cooperation with the ACCC’s inquiries and appreciates the work done by it to address our concerns,” Mr Samuel said.
The ACCC has decided to discontinue its current inquiries into eBay’s payment policies. However, this does not restrict the ACCC from reviewing the effects of eBay or PayPal’s conduct in Australia if it raises competition concerns in the future.

[Liisa-Sx]

The pinks are being carefully selective in the http://forums.ebay.com.au/topic/Recent-Ebay-News/July-Changes-Ask/600132560&start=0 thread, it is noteable to see that there is NO seller protection with anything other than PayPal as said by Michelle the pink. Paymate on the US ebay does have seller protection but there are no plans for it here. But they DO have buyer protection on AU.
Why only Buyer Protection, convenient.. so sellers will still have to use payPal to have a modicum of protection.

I have also asked a question regarding the "rolling blackouts" regarding listing visibility that is widely spread and very noticeable on AU, UK and USA ebay and is feverishly discussed on all sites and has been for a long time.

My post in the pink thread is #41 and again post #50, they are ignoring the question so far despite answering others after I posted.

There is also a long discussion on the Ebay au Seller board still ongoing.
http://forums.ebay.com.au/topic/Selling/Ebays-Rolling-Blackouts/600132285#1273728444774

I have a gut feeling they are going to ignore my question completely because ANY answer would open a can of worms that Ebay do NOT want to comment on, because it IS happening and they know it.

[bnwt]

I read the second last paragraph as saying the ACCC had had an utter gutful of eBay and said stop forcing sellers to offer paypal or else we'll have to take into considering the new Australian Consumer Law and use you as a test case

or as eBay spokesman Daniel Feiler has said, "It is important we are doing this because we want to give people a greater choice"

[Liisa-Sx]

I read the second last paragraph as saying the ACCC had had an utter gutful of eBay and said stop forcing sellers to offer paypal or else we'll have to take into considering the new Australian Consumer Law and use you as a test case

or as eBay spokesman Daniel Feiler has said, "It is important we are doing this because we want to give people a greater choice"

I agree BNWT, thats how I read it as well.

and... STILL no answer to my question there, they seem to have fallen silent all of a sudden.

[*CountessA*]

People need to realise it's not PayPal's job to offer consumer protection. They are not authorised as an enforcer of Australian consumer legislation.

For too long, the idea has been inculcated that the buyer NEEDS PayPal's protection.

Are the buyers aware of Australian consumer legislation as much as they are aware of PayPal "protection"?

Are the buyers aware of the requirements and protection offered by the EFT Code of Conduct, regarding credit cards?

It won't be as easy as pressing a button on the computer, opening a PayPal dispute and raising it to a claim... that is true. This is the process:

Step 1 - Transaction is disputed.
Cardholder advises their Issuer of a problem with the transaction or an Issuer discovers a breach of the Card Scheme Rules (ie: unauthorised Card Not Present Transaction)
Step 2 - Issuer advises the Bank
The Bank receives dispute advice on behalf of the Bank Merchant from the Issuing Bank after it has determined a chargeback reason.
Step 3 - Processing of the Dispute by the Bank
Depending on the chargeback reason, the Bank may contact the merchant to request supporting documentation. Liability rests with the merchant to provide satisfactory evidence regarding the transaction.

Don't you agree this is fairer than PayPal's so-called investigation of a claim? If there is one thing on which I challenge any seller who likes offering PayPal to offer defence of PayPal, it is this - that PayPal does not properly, adequately or actually investigate claims. If there is one thing on which I believe we can all agree, it's the fact that PayPal's complaints process is largely automated and hence intrinsically unfair.

People who pay using a credit card are in fact afforded a much better form of protection than PayPal.

Sellers who accept credit card payments are also better protected.

It's fairer for everyone.

I am not aware of Paymate's policies in practice regarding complaints and buyer protection in any great detail, so I can't comment on that.

But here we finally have choice given back to people. I hope that choice is not muddied by people thinking PayPal is still the "safest" way to pay. If people prefer to pay by PayPal and the seller offers it, fine. But let's be realistic! No one uses PayPal at the supermarket. No one uses PayPal for an over-the-phone order from a local or interstate company in Australia. No one uses PayPal when buying on Amazon. No... We don't become afraid to use our credit cards or debit cards in those circumstances... so why would anyone suddenly become afraid just because the transaction is "on eBay"?

[bnwt]

this is hilarious .......... a cut & paste from the eBay forum


13/05/2010 15:29
Report
bnwt wrote:
michelle

is it a coincidence that this sudden back down by eBay forcing sellers to use paypal just happens to be at the same time that the new Australian Consumer Law is enacted ??

the consumer law that states "It implements general and specific consumer protections, including prohibitions against misleading and deceptive conduct and unconscionable conduct, and provisions covering unfair practices and consumer transactions (such provisions to operate on substantially the same basis as the current Trade Practices Act provisions)".

that is to say did the ACCC insist that eBay stop forcing paypal on it's sellers ???


Hi bnwt,

No. As the ACCC states in its release: "following meetings with senior eBay staff eBay has introduced and brought forward changes to its payments policy which the ACCC considers will give its members greater flexibility in choosing payment options"

Regards,
The eBay team

[Liisa-Sx]

Ok so I got the typically anticipated answer to my question which was :

Hi Michelle,

Could you answer a question that a large amount of sellers have asked live help, ebay and other pinks with no response regarding regional or listing "blackouts" for want of a better phrase.

A huge amount of sellers are noticing that their listings are appearing and then disappearing for days at a time, or cannot be located period using full titles, some are ONLY visible using fewer keywords despite many multi regional people doing fresh searches for the exact title.

OR only being visible from certain regions and not from other regions, this has been noticed globally for some time, most noteably on Ebay au, uk and usa.

A pink on the US boards some time back admitted that eBay did use selective visibility on a lot of items due to too many listings on eBay, could you fill us in on how that works please, and why listings have no visibility at times.

(omitting the explanation for the first 24 hours of visibility of a listing for sorting as we are already aware).

Kind Regards

As I said the yet again Fobbed off reply I received was:

Hi liisasx,

Your question doesn't relate to the recent changes (which we've clearly stated posts to this thread should) but I do understand why you have posted here. I am unaware of the issue you have mentioned. I have forwarded this onto the relevant team to see if it is a known issue but you are best to contact Customer Support with these types of queries.

Thanks
Michelle
The eBay team

I then replied with:

Thank you for your reply Michelle, albeit sadly you have given the same answer that Ebay and Live Help have been giving for months with the same response, I am sorry I misinterepreted this thread to mean ask "any question" relating to Ebay changes.

The subject I mentioned is a change that has been more recently noticed by thousands of sellers, due to a dramatic downturn in sales and listing visibility.

A google of "ebay blackout" produces hundreds of discussions on the subject globally both on and off Ebay sites.

I will refrain from posting further "off topic" as per your request.

Again, thank you.

They use the sad old excuse that they "were not aware of" and "I have forwarded this onto the relevant team to see if it is a known issue".

It's Bloody known alright......and as for ask Customer Support , I DID, and they said "I have forwarded this onto the relevant team to see if it is a known issue"..... they must think we are all idiots.


BNWT, I read that LOL, Ebay DO love their spin, I love how they manipulate and interpret to their benefit, when to anyone with half a brain it is clear they were FORCED to introduce the changes. but like I said most sellers will stick with payPal because there is NO seller protection via other methods and Ebay KNOW it.
 

[*CountessA*]

Er... You mean Michelle prefaced her post with the word "No" as though to negate what you'd said, and then reworded it with the same meaning as though to confirm what you'd said?

I suppose she is hampered by having to present the party line; she's probably been instructed to post only from a list of allowed comments. Even if the posts contradict themselves internally, she can't realistically say anything else. The eBay moderators have their job to do... I can't say I envy them!

[Liisa-Sx]

I agree Ingrid, I'm sure none of us personally blame the 'Pinks' I am sure at times they grit their teeth when having to spout spin, and I am positive they know we can see right through it.

What I don't like is the abject lies they have to lavish upon us all too regularly.

[*CountessA*]

Agreed, Liisa - it's unhelpful, infuriating and obvious. I remember Michelle (I think it was Michelle) posting the party line before with the whole issue of Amex and PayPal - an outrageous untruth.

I rang Amex to check what she'd posted and what PayPal were saying... and it simply wasn't true. In fact, the Amex supervisor with whom I spoke was most annoyed by the incorrect implication, and did not hesitate to state flatly that the post was either misinformed or a lie. She didn't mince her words...

[Liisa-Sx]

Funnily enough Ingrid when people contact the relevant other parties regarding some Ebay spin or other for clarification all too often they are told that what Ebay quoted was a gross untruth.

Notice there was No denial when I stated:

A pink on the US boards some time back admitted that eBay did use selective visibility on a lot of items due to too many listings on eBay, could you fill us in on how that works please, and why listings have no visibility at times.

An intellegent person would reason that they were sidestepping the issue LOL.

If it was my business and I saw such a statement I would be rushing to wholeheartedly refute it if it was false because it could have a severe and adverse effect on my Company.

[Liisa-Sx]

Ok note the BOLD part of Michelle's reply to Lily.


lily-was-here wrote:
While ebay are looking at these changes, is anyone at ebay looking into the problem of paypal payments for pick up items yet??

I know that the new classifieds will be one option but those who still wish to list pick up items at auction are still faced with the whole 'item not received' risk if their buyers want to pay with paypal.

Ebay has been telling us for a couple of years that they are looking into this issue yet nothing has changed.

Is this problem going to be addresssed by ebay/paypal?


Is this reply a JOKE?????


Hi lily-was-here,

PayPal payments for pick up items remains an option for buyers if sellers choose to offer PayPal as one of the three safer payment options.

We (eBay and PayPal) are aware of the perception that buyers have the opportunity to abuse this system but it really is much more a perception than a reality. The large majority of pick up items are paid for at the time of pick up when the buyer has physically inspected the item.

Sellers can and should state in their listings their preferred payment method for pick up items.

Regards
Michelle
The eBay team

I'm sorry but........ buyers rorting the sytem is ony a PERCEPTION in reality????????

The boards are FULL of people being ripped off by unscrupulous Buyers.

and yes of course not all buyers are unscrupulous, but an ever growing amount are.

same goes for some sellers.

[*Brum6y*]

EBay and PayPal have their own political games that ape the real world.  All it will take is a credible whistleblower and there won't be a safe place in the galaxy for the decisionmakers.

Unfortunately, they operate within a corporate environment and the people in the know will have been bound and gagged by secrecy agreements with (I would expect) dire consequences for breaching.

There are trade secrets ... and then there are eBay's and PayPal's other secrets.


For those who think that this is all just paranoid 'conspiracy theory' - I can only say the evidence indicates it is real ... it's just the proof that is incomplete.


The big point is that the concerns of the consumer (both buyers and sellers have been heard and action has been taken.  Everybody who will benefit from this should thank all those voices that contributed to the chorus that caught the ear of the government.  One ant against an elephant is unlikely to do much - but a million is a different story.


It is simply a marketing ploy to take the stance that eBay has - to make it appear as though they are being pro-active and responsive. They won't deny the truth outright, but will use language to infer such.  Pure political poppycock.


The most vivid parallel I can draw is that of 'Dirty Harry' played by the ACCC (or would it be Fair Trading?) - holding a gun at eBay and saying "Go ahead, make my day".

Sorry ... but it IS that obvious.

[bnwt]

I am trying to think of words that express my current feeling towards eBay  gutless & pathetic  come to mind

this afternoon on the Ebay discussion boards, which I never visit any more because of the heavy handed moderation, I posted two of the media reports about the ACCC pressuring eBay to stop forcing sellers to use paypal

and yes you guessed it

because both stories ran a different line to eBay's fantasy spin, both stories were deleted

Hello bnwt,

Recently we became aware that your eBay registered account was involved in the
following activity:

Refusing to follow eBay staff instruction or direction.

which is not permitted at eBay.

[*Yibida*]

I noticed that bnwt, the mod did did have a go at you for it, then asked you not do that and post only questions, naughty bnwt ! ... how dare you post the real statements against fraudbays statements !.... LOL ... different day same shiit...{ I did get to read it tho...LOL }

[*wheels*]

I was going to say "that's unbelievable", but no, it is typical of eBay's head-in-the-sand approach to anyone pointing out problems with the site or their propaganda.

[*Ubbie Max*]

I was reading one of BNWT's posts & in the attachment I found this comment in readers posts. Post 1461 refers para 1.

Good stuff!


" Why Did eBay Australia Back Down on PayPal Policy?
by: Oz Unity
       
Thu May 13 19:21:17 2010
@fruity www.Ozroundtable.com is one of the largest growing off Ebay sites for open discussion regarding Ebay and PayPal, it comprises itself of many of those key in spearheading the charge against EBay to the ACCC regarding the PayPal only issues of 2008, its a good mix of fun and seriousness where a lot of people turn for help voicing issues that EBay censor on its main forum these days.

Back to the main subject, many in Oz are watching EBay closely, we all know the other shoe will drop soon enough, Ebay.au set up an 'ask the pinks" thread where legitimate questions regarding the changes are being asked and unfortunately answered by Daniel Fieler and associates with the usual spin and deflection tactics.
It's worth a read though.

http://forums.ebay.com.au/topic/Recent-Ebay-News/July-C
hanges-Ask/600132560#1273763615740

While the new Three payment system is an improvement there is still NO real protection for Sellers especially on pickup items if buyers use PayPal, or Paymate, Mr. Fieler also stated that Ebay's protection policies do not extend to the use of Paymate or Merchant facilities.

Ebay, Australia is watching YOU very closely indeed."

[Centuries]

Will the change of policy with regard to permitted payment methods mean that sellers will not be allowed to list Direct Deposit (net transfer) as a payment option??

[*CountessA*]

No, they can still offer such alternative methods (bank transfer, bank deposit, cash) in addition, but they must offer at least one of the three (i.e., PayPal OR Paymate OR Merchant Credit Card, or all three of these, or any two of these - but it must be at least one of these).

[Centuries]

I see. Thank you countessa.  I misunderstood something I had read today.