Author Topic: Paypal's "Mission Impossible" - A Duty of Care: When is an iPhone not an iPhone?  (Read 5049 times)

*Brum6y*

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When Paypal says so.

Sorry. The punch line was so obvious - I just couldn't hold it back.


This thread is yet another example of the absurdity dished out by Paypal against the seller who is at the centre of the original thread: Paypal's "Mission Impossible" - A Duty of Care.  While, at the time of writing, that matter is still progressing through the legal processes at an (expected) glacial pace, life goes on ... and so do the bumps.....


While the question in the title of this thread seems more like a humerous riddle, what is of interest in this story, is the absolute simplicity of perpetrating fraud on the part of a buyer - and the absolutely astounding decision making processes (if you can call them that) in actual use within Paypal UK.

As in my other presentations, here is that tale in the seller's own words:

thanks for the email.    still working on the case with the german boy but have had 5 more since last we spoke.    the most notable of the 5 are two for iPhones ($3000AUD worth).    

one sale to a buyer in the UK, purchased 2 x iPhone 3GS.    items were shipped and the day after receiving them the buyer claimed they were fake.   opened a PayPal dispute and won.   i provided PayPal the original invoice for the iPhones, shipping documents and proof of delivery to the buyers registered address.    i also provided proof the iPhones purchased in HK on the 19/5 and shipped same day to the UK were activated in the UK on the day of delivery.   PayPal rejected this evidence stating it was only coincidence two IMEI numbers the same were activated on the same day as delivery in the HK.

the buyer was entitled to keep the goods and get a full refund because i was found guilty of shipping fake goods.    PayPal refused to give any details of the transaction or the buyers proof the items were fake.    the matter is now with the FOS.    interesting side note, the buyer was a 0 feedbacker who has had their eBay account closed (before the dispute) because the account was fraudulent.  

second sale was to a buyer in Romania.   1 x iPhone 3GS.    phone shipped and delivered.  buyer then claimed they received and empty box and got a full refund of their payment we received another slap.    i provided full details of the transaction including the shipping proof that the package weighed 520gms the weight of an iphone packed.    PayPal sided with the buyer yet again.    the buyer has since been suspended from eBay.

why was this possible ... well, PayPal UK changed the user agreement without sellers being notified but buyers surely were ...

The following wording will be to 'Seller Responsibilities' section of the Buyer Complaint Policy:

"PayPal in the United Kingdom ('UK') offers protection for its UK buyers for 'significantly not as described' claims (as defined above) for all purchases, including purchases that are not an eBay transaction. If you sell to a buyer with a UK PayPal account and the buyer files a significantly not as described claim under the applicable PayPal UK policy (which is found against you) you will generally be required to accept the return of the item to you and then to refund the buyer the full purchase price, including original shipping costs. You will not receive a refund on your PayPal fees. If you lose a significantly not as described claim because the item you sold is considered by PayPal to be unauthentic or counterfeit, you
will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you will not receive the item back (it will be destroyed). PayPal also reserves the right to take other such action it may deem necessary under its User Agreement for sale of counterfeit items."

All a buyer in the UK need do is purchase an item then once its received claim its fake and automatically they will win.    took 3 days for my buyer of 2 phones and 1 day for my buyer of one.    both had UK PayPal accounts ... yes, even the one in Romania ...

new way for buyers to screw sellers ... i posted it on the PS board and got a slap this morning for:

Hello
<seller's id>,

Recently we became aware that your eBay registered account was involved in the following activity:

Using, or posting material to, eBay's discussion boards to discourage others from using eBay or its related services (including PayPal).

which is not permitted at eBay.

This is a copy of your post:

Its no longer safe to ship to the UK
27/05/2010 19:25

well, for those who were wondering why i lost $2000 to a fraudster in the UK .... read the changes that made it all happen. why would any seller ever ship an item to a buyer in the UK after they paid with PayPal after this change?

add the detail above stating the UK User Agreement changes.

cheers



"Why would any seller ever ship an item to a buyer in the UK after they paid with PayPal after this change?"

Why, indeed.


It is getting harder and harder to offer any balancing arguments against the claims that eBay and Paypal are, to quote one of our members here, "criminal organisations".

... and its getting worse.

*Brum6y*

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(P.S.   The wonderful thing about posting here on the OZRT - is that I won't get a slap for the previous post.)

surf-inside

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I don't think I'll ever sell to the UK again, I have had nothing but problems with UK buyers.  In a high risk category, there are a thieves and pirates a plenty looking for any opportunity to get something for nothing.

In fact, I may be quitting altogether by the end of the month.  Now  I am consulting, and working at local B&M stores in low risk categories get set up on ebay so they too, can be become victims  ;D

*Yibida*

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Don't feel to bad if you decide to pull the pin Surf, some seller margins have eroded to the point where it's not worth the effort for the small returns.... Unless your a seller in China listing thousands of cheapass crapp to make buggger all on each sale to keep you going.... I'm afraid you are just another victim consumed by Ebays stupid brain dead and greedy business practice's .... 

Centuries

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If you lose a significantly not as described claim because the item you sold is considered by PayPal to be unauthentic or counterfeit, you
will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you will not receive the item back (it will be destroyed). PayPal also reserves the right to take other such action it may deem necessary under its User Agreement for sale of counterfeit items."


In making that statement, how does Paypal know that the item has been destroyed? They are not in possession of the goods.
“I can't explain myself, I'm afraid, because I'm not myself, you see”  Lewis Carroll

Roo

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If you lose a significantly not as described claim because the item you sold is considered by PayPal to be unauthentic or counterfeit, you
will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you will not receive the item back (it will be destroyed). PayPal also reserves the right to take other such action it may deem necessary under its User Agreement for sale of counterfeit items."


In making that statement, how does Paypal know that the item has been destroyed? They are not in possession of the goods.

Good point Nanna!

I have also wondered how they can even declare something is a fake if they haven't even seen it.

How hard would it be for someone to buy a real pair of expensive sunglasses etc....and then take a cheap fake pair they bought elsewhere to a reputable outlet (to get written appraisal) and, of course, would say they were fakes?