The Chris Dawson Q & A Thread regarding "best Match"

[*smee*]

As previously mentioned Chris Dawson has agreed to partake in this Q & A Session ,
He will be available here from approx 9pm Wednesday night 18th
Chris was the author of the 3 part series recently on tamebay about best match ...
the links to those sessions are below
http://tamebay.com/2009/11/best-match-secrets-part-1-getting-found.html
http://tamebay.com/2009/11/best-match-secrets-part-2-how-products-are-sorted.html
http://tamebay.com/2009/11/best-match-secrets-part-3-5-top-tips-for-best-match.html

If you are interested in learning about the ins and outs of this enigma called best match please read these links ... and hit Chris with your questions upon his arrival tommorrow night , please dont post questions prioe as I think it would be good if we can conduct this a bit like a talk back session ... a question followed by answer etc etc , wherever possible

[*CountessA*]

This thread is temporarily locked in anticipation of Chris's appearance tomorrow evening. You may want to prepare your questions in a Word document beforehand, ready to cut-and-paste as soon as this thread hits "UNLOCKED" status.

...

and since I don't want to inadvertently leave it locked, I'm unlocking it now.

[shyer]

 Hi Chris,

Thank you for giving us your time. the question I have is if I was selling for example, the godfather set of movies as a BIN with 6 to sell which is more important for best match top of search list " the title" IE ( DVD set of godfather all three movies ) or similar tiltles . Or getting sales and relisting with same title?

[TameBayChris]

Morning all, or evening there I guess

Many thanks for welcoming me as a guest to your boards. I'll do my best to convey eBay's official position on Best (worst?? ;-) ) match as well as as many tips for legally gaming it as I can

[shyer]

welcome chris, please see my question above.

[TameBayChris]

Hi Chris,

Thank you for giving us your time. the question I have is if I was selling for example, the godfather set of movies as a BIN with 6 to sell which is more important for best match top of search list " the title" IE ( DVD set of godfather all three movies ) or similar tiltles . Or getting sales and relisting with same title?

I would suggest using tools like Terapeak to find the MOST relevant keywords that previous listings have sold with. But the overriding factor in Best Match is sales and price. If you have the best or close to best price and you have recent sales you're on to a winner, although I know that's likely to drive prices and profits ever lower so you need to balance that.

[TameBayChris]

I've got 7 tips for getting you item kick started in Best Match, some of which you may be able to use depending on which eBay site you list on:

1) Featured First

Featured First is the only sure fire way to the top of search results but it’s going to cost you (£44.95 for up to ten days, £134.95 for up to 30 days for eBay UK). Featured First is a great way to buy exposure but, as it’s success starts to be seen, more and more sellers are starting to use the listing enhancement.

If you’re one of just two sellers to use Featured First in a category then you’ll always be at the top, but as more sellers start to use the feature you listing will appear in a rotation and the exposure starts to fall.

This is a feature that should only ever be used once on a listing with good run rate, and then recent sales should be keeping you at the top of search. However, for slower sell through rate, high value items, Featured First is definitely worth considering on an ongoing basis.

[TameBayChris]

2) Auctions to drive sales

Yes auctions are old hat, as a seller you probably prefer to know you’ll get the price you want and many buyers want to buy instantly rather than bid. Well that might be the case but auctions are still sorted using Ending Soonest and are still a great route to getting your listings to the top of search results.

Auctions at an attractive start prices will get buyers looking, strong links from auctions are a great way to kick start some sales on your main BIN listings. Look at the auction as a loss leader to gain attention and drive traffic from the auction to your BIN. Also consider trying an auction with a BIN price for an instant sale because….

[TameBayChris]

3) Auction to Recent Sales Advantaged BIN

… It’s possible to gain a Recent Sales advantage in Best Match from an auction and this is the main reason sellers should be experimenting with the listing format. If your auction sells at a final value price that you’d be willing to sell at (or below), relist it but convert it to a BIN.

In testing it appears that Recent Sales advantage is transferred from a sold auction to a new BIN listing and can propel the BIN towards the top of Best Match at best, and above an identical BIN listing with no sales at worst. Auctions can be used to actively gain a head start for a multi-quantity BIN.

[TameBayChris]

4) Best Offer

On your first listing of a new product always add Best Offer. It only takes a few sales to make a huge difference in search results standings. Some experimentation with this tactic has thrown up some interesting trends, the most significant of which is that early sales will tend to be Best Offers, but once an item reaches the top of search results buyers start to buy at the full price rather than making further Best Offers.

It’s well worth accepting the first one or two offers at less than you’d normally consider, in order to boost your listing in search results. Offers are worth accepting even if you make a slight loss on a couple of sales – it’s still probably still cheaper than paying for Featured First, to get to the top of the page.

[TameBayChris]

5) Email Marketing

Get smart about your email marketing, use it to drive traffic to the listings you want to sell. Use emails to highlight new listings that you need to gain Recent Sales to increase Best Match placement.

Combine email marketing with your other initiatives such as Best Offers. Tactics such as “We’ll accept best offers of just £x.xx from email subscribers” for a particular item work really well – giving an exclusive deal (even if it’s not) is a great way to get some quick sales and boost your search standing.

[TameBayChris]

6) MarkDown Manager

Have a sale! What better way to boost your search rank than to give a discount. However this is getting harder to implement in the UK as only GTC BINs will ever qualify. If you’re almost anywhere bar the UK you’ll find it much easier to hold a MarkDown Manager sale (listings in the UK have to be 28 days or older before they can be included in a MarkDown sale).

This is a tactic that can also be used on older listings which have fallen from the top of Best Match as a way to regain recent sales.

[TameBayChris]

7) Listing Enhancements

So you’re seeing some success but you can’t get right to the top of search results. All is not lost as, once you’ve got to the first page, you can add some enhancements to make your listing stand out.

Featured Plus will get you to the top of the page (£14.95 for up to 10 days, £44.95 for up to 30 days), but there are other low cost enhancements such as Bold, Highlight and Subtitle which are also good value. They might not get you to the top of the page but they’ll catch the eye of any buyer who scrolls down looking for a good deal.

[shyer]

Thank you for your answer , Re; price I have found using above example I am better at $44 with free postage than at $29 with $15 postage same TOTAL price , but now my postage cost is way over average.

[shyer]

Thanks for tips I used to for some items always use featured plus.  In australia most catagories in featured plus is $15. I will look at rotating use tactic.

[TameBayChris]

There's also one important snippet of information I found regarding multi-variant listings for sites that they are available on. Previously the Recent Sales score was based on the Best Matched item in the variant

e.g. if you sold 10 red 5 blue 2 black and 1 Pink Mickey Mouse t-shirt and someone searched for "Mickey Mouse t-shirt" you'd get a score based on 10 sales (the highest match)

That's changed it now works on sales for all variations
http://pages.ebay.co.uk/sell/sellerupdate/bestmatch.html#a9
e.g in the example above searching again for "Mickey Mouse t-shirt" you'd get a score based on 18 sales (the total sales for the listing)

That means multi-variant listings are a must if they're appropriate for your product as even search for a "Pink Mickey Mouse t-shirt" gets a score of 18

[*FluffyDuckee*]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for that info.  Yes it makes perfect sense that if you pay for a 'Featured First' it will always go to the top of the list (as long as it doesn't have to compete with a hoard of other sellers using 'Featured First'.  I notice you mention that if there are many sellers, the feature appears in a rotation.  So can you confirm here that if you have paid for 'Featured First' then no other factors can effect the postion of that highlighted listing other than a rotation?

[TameBayChris]

Thank you for your answer , Re; price I have found using above example I am better at $44 with free postage than at $29 with $15 postage same TOTAL price , but now my postage cost is way over average.

Free postage does get a boost in best match. Also there is lots of anecdotal evidence both on and off eBay that buyers prefer it. More savvy buyers (in particular those that sell as well as buy) tend to be more discerning and look at total price, but in reality most buyers aren't that savvy.

It's also worth noting that from eBay internal tests they've told me that when buyers are presented with a choice they tend to purchase free post items more often and they can measure the effect by promoting them less or more. (and that's why sometimes you'll see what looks like unusual search results in you're in a particular test group or not)

[TameBayChris]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for that info.  Yes it makes perfect sense that if you pay for a 'Featured First' it will always go to the top of the list (as long as it doesn't have to compete with a hoard of other sellers using 'Featured First'.  I notice you mention that if there are many sellers, the feature appears in a rotation.  So can you confirm here that if you have paid for 'Featured First' then no other factors can effect the postion of that highlighted listing other than a rotation?

In the UK only Top Sellers can use Featured First, so it's used much less frequently than before. Also Featured Plus has been scrapped in the UK so the only way to buy your way to the top is as a Top Seller.
Definitely if you use Featured First you'll only rotate with other Featured First listings - in the UK there are two slots reserved for Featured First (there used to be additional slots for Featured Plus listings that fell on the first page of search results so on other sites you may still see a mix of Featured First and Plus)

[shyer]

Featured plus as I understand it. now only moves you top of page you appear in best match with so if you are on page 50 under best match you will only be at top of page 50 the $15 cost in that case of very questionable benefit.

[TameBayChris]

Featured plus as I understand it. now only moves you top of page you appear in best match with so if you are on page 50 under best match you will only be at top of page 50 the $15 cost in that case of very questionable benefit.

That's how it was supposed to work in the UK, but in reality they never programmed it correctly and for years it got you to the first page of search results which it shouldn't have done! 

On most other sites it works as it should, but when it comes into it's own is when buyer start refining searches. As soon as a search puts you on page 1 of results you're at the top.

If you're unfortunate enough to have your listings demoted in search as a below standard seller do NOT waste any of your money on listing features as they'll not benefit you much at all. You'd just have to ride the storm until you get back to being a standard seller and rely on people finding your listings in other ways and it will hurt your business, but at least you'll save on listing enhancement fees in the mean time.

[shyer]

Slightly off topic I believe about 90% of my buyers do not know how to turn off best match or how to refine searches. You would have broader experience what would your figure be?

[TameBayChris]

Slightly off topic I believe about 90% of my buyers do not know how to turn off best match or how to refine searches. You would have broader experience what would your figure be?

I'd say that pretty much all buyers use the search option eBay present to them. At most as far as I can tell people will change to lowest price but are more likely to refine with product finders (the item specific options in the side bar) to refine searches.

They will click for just auctions or just fixed price as those tabs are more prominent and sometimes they just want to buy now and not bid on an auction

[*FluffyDuckee*]

Thanks Chris

Is there a specific algorithm that is used for key words?  Can key words override other factors?

I recently conducted an experiment where I searched for title of a dvd and then the category:  

Snow White & Friends DVD 

This returned a listing with that title and the word DVD in the Ebay title.

I then changed the order and put the category first:

DVD Snow White & Friends

To my surprise I recieved a slightly differerent result and in fact in no. 4 of the list was Snow White and Friends 123456.  This did not have DVD in the title, but matched it higher than most other DVD's.

What would have caused this in your opinion?

[TameBayChris]

I do think it's important to forget selling experience and your knowledge of the site and think like a buyer. It's very instructive to sit down with a novice eBay user and watch how they search for something with no input or help. It may surprise you what they do and how little the average buyer knows about using eBay.

[*Brum6y*]

Chris,

The term "below standard seller" is one about which I have some concerns...

It has been reported - and I have seen some instances - where sellers with 90-95% feedback and DSRs in the 4.5 - 4.7 range have listings ahead of a seller with 100% FB and DSRs of 4.8 and 4.9!

Do you have an understanding as to how this happens?

[TameBayChris]

Thanks Chris

Is there a specific algorithm that is used for key words?  Can key words override other factors?

I recently conducted an experiment where I searched for title of a dvd and then the category:  

Snow White & Friends DVD 

This returned a listing with that title and the word DVD in the Ebay title.

I then changed the order and put the category first:

DVD Snow White & Friends

To my surprise I recieved a slightly differerent result and in fact in no. 4 of the list was Snow White and Friends 123456.  This did not have DVD in the title, but matched it higher than most other DVD's.

What would have caused this in your opinion?

eBay do (in some categories only!) use category and item specifics to augment keywords when deciding which products to recall for a search term. I've not been able to determine a full list or even a partial list with any accuracy but DVD is definitely a term that gets more weight even if it's not a keyword in the title.

Colours for clothing appear less predictable, but for multi-variant listings they 100% use item specifics, although I'm not convinced non multi-variant listings would have colours pulled from specifics.

[shyer]

chris I have a zero paypal payment average on my sales (long story) I suspect it affects my best match search results .Looking at my compeditors ( with about a 80% paypal payments history on sold items) and all other known factors taken into account.

[TameBayChris]

Chris,

The term "below standard seller" is one about which I have some concerns...

It has been reported - and I have seen some instances - where sellers with 90-95% feedback and DSRs in the 4.5 - 4.7 range have listings ahead of a seller with 100% FB and DSRs of 4.8 and 4.9!

Do you have an understanding as to how this happens?

I don't know about Aus, but for UK it's possible to have poor feedback displayed (12 months) but be measured on recent feedback (3 mths). It depends on whether you're a high volume or low volume seller.

The reverse is also true - if you have fantastic 12 month feedback but your 3 month feedback and DSRs are poor then you could look like a good seller but be lowered in search results based on recent feedback

[TameBayChris]

chris I have a zero paypal payment average on my sales (long story) I suspect it affects my best match search results .Looking at my compeditors ( with about a 80% paypal payments history on sold items) and all other known factors taken into account.

I'm afraid I don't have experience of that - in the UK all listings have to offer PayPal as a payment option so naturally take up is high. I don't know if offering PayPal affects Best Match placement on other sites, but would be interested to find out if anyone out there knows?

[shyer]

Chris ebay Australia requires paypal is offered and I do end up with about 5% paypal payments for sales. However they are payments to my paypal account that can accept money . Not the paypal account I find best to list with. As I said a long story.

[TameBayChris]

Chris ebay Australia requires paypal is offered and I do end up with about 5% paypal payments for sales. However they are payments to my paypal account that can accept money . Not the paypal account I find best to list with. As I said a long story.

I remember in the news eBay/PayPal's attempt to force themselves on users - a mistake in my opinion. They won't try that in the UK simply because the penetration of PayPal is so great it's not worth the hassle to try and enforce it on the minority. I always wonder what would have happened if they'd been like Amazon with a rigid payment structure from day 1 - no one complains that when they sell on Amazon that they can't use their own merchant account etc, but that's something eBay can't change (and sorry... a little off topic  )

[*FluffyDuckee*]

Nic pic Chris!!!

In your opinion does perfectly matched key words override higher postage costs and sellers DSRs at any time?

[TameBayChris]

Nic pic Chris!!!

In your opinion does perfectly matched key words override higher postage costs and sellers DSRs at any time?

There's no such thing as perfectly matched keywords - see http://tamebay.com/2009/11/best-match-secrets-part-1-getting-found.html

Keywords are simply what will get your listing in or out of the search recall. Either the buyers search included your keywords or they didn't, but they're unlikely to search for your entire listing title.

Once the search recall is determined it's then over to Best Match to order the results which is where postage costs/DSRs etc come into play.

[shyer]

Chris interesting comment about amazon payments I regularly buy on both USA amazon and ebay USA. I recently purchased a S/H camera and I noticed that Amazon USA was getting about twice the price for the same item Ebay USA was getting. It was quite a shock

[*Brum6y*]

Chris,

The articles cited at the beginning of this thread make references to goods that are repeat sellers - such as T-shirts.  Gaining an impressions and sales 'history' is straightforward enough when you have an inventory of 1,000 consisting of 100 pieces of 10 products - but do you have any specific suggestions for products where the range is wider, but the sales per product are less? For example, an inventory of 1,000 but with 5 pieces of 200 products?

... which, for the most part, cannot be honestly presented in any multi-variant form of listing.

[*smee*]

Hi Chris ,
It has been suggested that by sellers creating false ID's or getting mates to put in offers on best offers this will promote the listing up the best match list
futher more it has been suggested that some actually purchase there own or their mates BIN items (but later mutually agree to cancel transaction)  for the same reason .... have you heard of this happening or can you see any benefit in doing this ?

[TameBayChris]

Chris,

The articles cited at the beginning of this thread make references to goods that are repeat sellers - such as T-shirts.  Gaining an impressions and sales 'history' is straightforward enough when you have an inventory of 1,000 consisting of 100 pieces of 10 products - but do you have any specific suggestions for products where the range is wider, but the sales per product are less? For example, an inventory of 1,000 but with 5 pieces of 200 products?

... which, for the most part, cannot be honestly presented in any multi-variant form of listing.

I'm in the same boat - many of my items can't be multi-variant. There are two options - use more auctions and rely on buyers finding your products. eBay is without a doubt changing (Tesco, the third biggest retailer in the world is in the process of setting up on eBay UK as of this moment) and the best advice is to look at your inventory and source niche products which others don't have.

I know that's easy to say and not so easy to implement, but if 100 sellers all offer the same product I'm never going to be biggest, have the most stock, or be able to negotiate the best prices. I need to recognise that and work to my strengths

[TameBayChris]

Chris interesting comment about amazon payments I regularly buy on both USA amazon and ebay USA. I recently purchased a S/H camera and I noticed that Amazon USA was getting about twice the price for the same item Ebay USA was getting. It was quite a shock

Amazon quite simply attracts a different class of buyer - eBay and Amazon are getting ever closer in product range and listing format and it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out in the long term. Although many customers use both the vast majority appear to use either eBay or Amazon which is why ALL sellers should consider listing on multiple channels. The days of just eBay are well and truly over for most businesses.

[TameBayChris]

Hi Chris ,
It has been suggested that by sellers creating false ID's or getting mates to put in offers on best offers this will promote the listing up the best match list
futher more it has been suggested that some actually purchase there own or their mates BIN items (but later mutually agree to cancel transaction)  for the same reason .... have you heard of this happening or can you see any benefit in doing this ?

Best offers are only any good if they turn into sales.
I've heard of it happening, I've no doubt it does happen, but I'd caution strongly against it. Contrary to popular opinion eBay are getting remarkably good at linking accounts and if you even log in to two accounts from the same PC they'll know it.

In reality large sellers simply can't do this as they have too many listings and not enough available totally unlinked accounts on different PCs in different locations to cover their entire product range. If you have 1000 fixed price listings gaining 1000 unlinked accounts to place a best offer which then isn't paid (or is paid but refunded) isn't a practical option.

A wise ex-eBay employee once said to me "It's much easier to see conspiracy than to credit eBay with any intelligence or the ability to communicate effectively" and that's so true

(Not of course that I could possibly want to make fun of eBay ;-) )

[shyer]

.....
I've heard of it happening, I've no doubt it does happen, but I'd caution strongly against it. Contrary to popular opinion eBay are getting remarkably good at linking accounts and if you even log in to two accounts from the same PC they'll know it.....
A wise ex-eBay employee once said to me "It's much easier to see conspiracy than to credit eBay with any intelligence or the ability to communicate effectively" and that's so true
(Not of course that I could possibly want to make fun of eBay ;-) )

Chris with out going into specifics on a few higher priced items it is in fact incredibly easy to do for some one with knowledge of the IT industry with the right options available. In ebay Australian forums a few years ago we had a ID micks folly who retired from embarrassing ebay as it was too easy and continuing no longer served any purpose.

[*Brum6y*]

Chris, we have our own home-grown site called OZtion that is a direct alternative in terms of structure.  It still is patchy in terms of sales across the spectrum, but that is slowly moving ahead from what I've seen.

It has had a notable and continuing growth in membership commensurate with the degree of disruption from eBay's "disruptive innovation" and frustration of both buyers and sellers alike.

This is especially true when bulk quantities of overseas products (especiallly from our northern neighbours) appear to flood various categories with often sub-standard quality goods.

Have your efforts shown
 (a) any awareness of these issues by eBay
 (b) any consideration by eBay to address them (I notice "fine jewelry" has been recently reorganised
 (c) any suggestions for remedial tactics by sellers within the current circumstances?

[TameBayChris]

Chris with out going into specifics on a few higher priced items it is in fact incredibly easy to do for some one with knowledge of the IT industry with the right options available. In ebay Australian forums a few years ago we had a ID micks folly who retired from embarrassing ebay as it was too easy and continuing no longer served any purpose.

Easy to do on a couple of items, incredibly difficult to do on an ongoing basis for a pro seller on 1000s of items. As I said I've no doubt it may happen, but not something I'd be willing to risk my business on or suggest anyone else does.

[shyer]

Thank you Chris for your time, and insights. I have to go and feed the animals 4 and 2 legged ones before they eat each other. I will read more later. I am sure all people here at this forum are happy to have you visit any time you want

[*Brum6y*]

Chris with out going into specifics on a few higher priced items it is in fact incredibly easy to do for some one with knowledge of the IT industry with the right options available. In ebay Australian forums a few years ago we had a ID micks folly who retired from embarrassing ebay as it was too easy and continuing no longer served any purpose.

Easy to do on a couple of items, incredibly difficult to do on an ongoing basis for a pro seller on 1000s of items. As I said I've no doubt it may happen, but not something I'd be willing to risk my business on or suggest anyone else does.

I might add that, even if you were able to structure a multiple-ID multiple IP address metrics stimulating program, by its very nature you would likely be generating a pattern of usage on your inventory that could make itself obvious and/or enable isolation.  The more products involved, the greater this risk.

And I have little doubt that, if discovered, eBay would not be amused...!

[TameBayChris]

Chris, we have our own home-grown site called OZtion that is a direct alternative in terms of structure.  It still is patchy in terms of sales across the spectrum, but that is slowly moving ahead from what I've seen.

It has had a notable and continuing growth in membership commensurate with the degree of disruption from eBay's "disruptive innovation" and frustration of both buyers and sellers alike.

This is especially true when bulk quantities of overseas products (especiallly from our northern neighbours) appear to flood various categories with often sub-standard quality goods.

Have your efforts shown
 (a) any awareness of these issues by eBay
 (b) any consideration by eBay to address them (I notice "fine jewelry" has been recently reorganised
 (c) any suggestions for remedial tactics by sellers within the current circumstances?

I've noticed practically every alternative site has had pick up from new buyers. I think it's driven by a number of things - sellers are spreading their wings. Buyers are maturing with the Internet and happy to buy from sites other than main stream. That's why many sellers are having great success with their own websites.  Alternative sites in the UK at least they're all struggling to gain traction, even those that have been around for years. Niche websites from individual sellers are a much better option.

On the bulk quantities of overseas products that's more tricky. eBay are constantly trying to re-balance sites as whilst a flavour of overseas goods gives buyers choice being flooded with them isn't good. It's no secret that in general a domestic transaction is more likely to be a good buying experience than an international one (e.g. DSR qualification for Top Seller is based on domestic transactions only) so it's not desirable that the site is overloaded with overseas sellers.

Have eBay got the balance right? Not yet. Does Best Match help? Yes, because every time a buyers sees (a search impression) and doesn't buy (a sale) the score on that listing goes down so through best match buyers will eventually determine what's a quality listing and what's a less desirable listing.

(Auctions are a LOT more difficult to balance and eBay definitely have work to do in that area!)

[TameBayChris]

Thank you Chris for your time, and insights. I have to go and feed the animals 4 and 2 legged ones before they eat each other. I will read more later. I am sure all people here at this forum are happy to have you visit any time you want

Thanks Shyer. I have about another 20 minutes and then I have to get on with some work as well, but I'll pop back later in the day and try to catch up. In the mean time if anyone has questions feel free to ping me a message or you can always catch me on TameBay

[*Brum6y*]

Polish up the crystal ball for this one.....


The inference from your last post is that things should stabilise over time and a better reflection of 'best match' actually approaching it's intention will come.


Any thoughts on when ..?  (How long do we hold our breath?)

[wyzeguy60]

hi Chris - only if you have time.
I only sell auction and always start at 99 cents.
I have 4.9, 5, 5, 5 stars
I always get good prices.
does best match disadvantage me
cheers

[*CountessA*]

Chris, can you confirm that there are some aspects of the "best match" algorithm that are not known to the general public, and which may be presenting results that are sometimes quite noticeably different to what the buyer wants to see?