Author Topic: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China  (Read 6097 times)

*CountessA*

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Google is no longer willing to continue censoring search results on Google.cn after proof of v. Recent cyber attacks on Google and the subsequent investigation has led to the discovery that the accounts of dozens of U.S.-, China- and Europe-based Gmail users who are advocates of human rights in China appear to have been routinely accessed by third parties.

What has happened?

This has not happened due to any security breach at Google, but most likely through phishing scams or malware placed on the users’ computers.

These attacks and the surveillance they have uncovered have led Google to review the feasibility of their business operations in China: They are no longer willing to continue censoring results on Google.cn.

In the weeks to come Google will discuss with the Chinese government how they could operate an unfiltered search engine within the law, if at all. On the official Google blog they write:

    “We recognize that this may well mean having to shut down Google.cn, and potentially our offices in China.”

A brave decision

This is good news indeed! When Google.cn launched three years ago, Pandia and many others worried that the decision to censor search results was a serious breach with Google’s corporate motto “not be evil” and that it would lend legitimacy to the censorship and other human rights violations of the Chinese regime.

But China is a huge and quickly growing market and the temptation at the time was too big for Google. However, it turns out that they were trying to keep the evil to a minimum. In the same blog post quoted above, Google quotes their own blog post (or testemony as they called it) on the launch of Google.cn:

    “we will carefully monitor conditions in China, including new laws and other restrictions on our services. If we determine that we are unable to achieve the objectives outlined we will not hesitate to reconsider our approach to China.”

We are happy to see that these words have indeed provided a guideline for Google and that they have taken a decision which will probably cost them a lot of business but sends a very strong signal to the Chinese authorities.

The Chinese government’s war against Google and the Chinese people


To understand the Google China war we need to understand how the Communist party thinks and acts.

As reported, Google is no longer willing to censor search results in China.

The announcement is dramatic, to say the least, and we have no reason to believe that Google will not follow up on its threats: i.e. close down its operations in China and the google.cn site if the Chinese government does not allow uncensored result.

It is also pretty obvious that the Chinese Communists are not going to allow this. Google knows that. This again means that Google will leave China. The “talk about talks” is just a formality.

The cyber attack

It has been known for a time that there has been internal disagreement in the Google leadership regarding China. Co-founder Sergey Brin, who had his childhood in Soviet Russia, has been particularly uncomfortable with the idea of giving in to the Communist regime. Still, the dream of conquering a huge Internet market, as well as the argument that it is better with some information than none prevailed until this week.

What changed was the fact that someone launched a co-ordinated attack against the services of Google and other American companies looking — apparently — for business information as well as information on Chinese dissidents and human rights activists in other parts of the world known for supporting the Chinese opposition.

It seems they were two attacks: One where someone hacked into the Google servers directly (although not achieving their goal) and another using spyware exploting a vulnerability in Internet Explorer, tapping information from infected computers, and getting login information by spying on the users for these PCs.

Although this hasn’t been proved, it is reasonable to conclude that the attacks were orchestrated by the Chinese government. Who else would want access to the Gmail accounts of the Chinese opposition?

This told Google that the tactic of placating the Chinese government is not working. Instead of allowing more freedom for its citizens, the regime is so scared of a “democratic revolution” that it is doing anything it can to keep an eye on possible threats.
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

*Ubbie Max*

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2010, 06:50:43 AM »
Very interesting reading Countess.

*CountessA*

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2010, 07:54:55 AM »
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/01/16/BU151BIO84.DTL

Few expect Google Inc.'s stare-down with China to usher in a new era of openness across the Asian nation, but some believe - or hope - it could pressure the government to improve relations with foreign technology companies.

The Mountain View Web giant called out the country in a surprisingly forthright manner last week, publicly venting frustrations common among many U.S. businesses operating there. The company said it would stop censoring search results in China even if that means it's forced to leave, after disclosing a sophisticated cyberattack on the e-mail accounts of advocates of human rights in the nation.

Few see China, whose leadership has grown more conservative and nationalistic in recent years, backing down in the face of the ultimatum. But such a declaration by a company of Google's stature could raise the ethical bar for businesses that choose to remain, and grant permission for firms without a presence there to second-guess the perceived wisdom that they should be there, observers say.

The Google-China flap has already reignited the debate over global censorship, reinvigorating human rights groups drawing attention to abuses in the country and prompting U.S. politicians to take a hard look at trade relations. The Obama administration issued statements of support for Google, and members of Congress are pushing to revive a bill banning U.S. tech companies from working with governments that digitally spy on their citizens.

"If Google leaves China, I think the impact of that is China gets a black eye," said Haim Mendelson, a professor of electronic business at the Stanford Graduate School of Business. "People will remember what happened to Google."

What happened wasn't just that the company was widely criticized for its decision to censor search results in China in the first place, or that it and its customers may have been the victims of cyber-spying by agents of the government. For businesses with Chinese interests, perhaps a bigger concern is that Google, the leading search engine around the world, ranks a distant second in the country and reportedly described its revenue there as "immaterial" four years after launching.

There's a widespread perception that Chinese bureaucrats, in ways subtle and otherwise, stack the deck in favor of domestic companies like leading search engine Baidu. It's one thing for companies to compromise on values when there's a huge money-making opportunity at stake, but it's entirely another when, after making uncomfortable concessions, the government actively works against their business interests.

Baidu itself has said it's the market leader because it better understands the needs of Chinese consumers and advertisers. It controls 58.4 percent of the search market, compared with 35.6 percent for Google, according to Analysys International. The next biggest company, Sogou, has only a 1 percent share. Reports have put the combined search share of Yahoo Inc. and Microsoft Corp.'s Bing at just over 1 percent. If Google does leave China, Baidu will have a monopoly over the Internet market in the near term, the Chinese research firm said.

Not the first time

While Google's exit threat is notable for its decisiveness, it's not the first time a tech business embroiled in similar issues has pulled back in China.

EBay Inc. said in late 2006 it would replace its Chinese auction site with a joint venture operated by Tom Online of Beijing, after it lost considerable market share to the Taobao auction site, operated by Chinese company Alibaba.com.

Yahoo Inc., subject to widespread condemnation for filtering search results in China, struck a deal in the summer of 2005 to turn over its business to Alibaba - and with it all questions of self-censorship. It maintains a 39 percent financial stake in the partnership.

Later that year, it came to light that the Sunnyvale company handed over e-mail content from journalist Shi Tao to Chinese authorities, providing information that would lead to his 10-year prison sentence. Reporters Without Borders, human rights groups and members of Congress denounced the act.

Cisco Systems Inc. also faced opposition at home in 2005. A shareholder resolution pushed the company to adopt a human rights policy for its China dealings, after reports said the company's routers formed the underpinning of the so called "Great Firewall of China."

Rare victory

In one rare victory last year, complaints from U.S. businesses and Washington forced the Chinese government to back down from its initial demands that PC makers, including Hewlett-Packard and Apple, install Internet-filtering software on computers sold in that country.

Even if the human rights and censorship issues don't much matter to company executives, being hauled before Congress, called to account by shareholders and castigated in the media certainly do, said Alan Tonelson, a research fellow focused on China at the U.S. Business and Industry Council, which represents U.S. manufacturing companies.

Tonelson doesn't expect Google's decision to upend the status quo in China, but said companies may step up efforts behind the scenes to ensure they are "not obviously vulnerable to the same kinds of bad publicity that Google and Cisco and Yahoo ran into."

He added that U.S. tech companies retain an important source of leverage that could nudge these matters forward: technology still unrivaled in sophistication.

"The last thing China wants is to be a second-rate technology power," Tonelson said.

On the other hand, many businesses could simply see Google's departure as an opportunity to tighten relationships in China and boost their market share in the world's most populous nation. Most businesses have declined to comment on how Google's move will alter their China plans, and some have said emphatically that nothing about their dealings there will change.

"We've been quite clear that we are going to operate in China, (and) we're going to abide by the law," Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer told CNBC.

China Foreign Ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu said in prepared remarks last week: "I want to stress that China's Internet is open. The Chinese Government encourages the development of (the) Internet and endeavors to create a sound environment for the healthy development of (the) Internet. Hacking in whatever form is prohibited by law in China."


"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

cueperkins

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2010, 10:16:16 AM »
This news was released last week, and I posted about it then...We should boycott Baidu....end of story.....China doesn't play well with others.....and I admire the stand that Google is taking.....power to them....boycott Baidu.  Ban them from every site.....that''ll send a message. 

CALLING ALL SITE OWNERS....BAN BAIDU SPIDERS.....SEND EM PACKIN

cueperkins

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2010, 10:16:58 AM »
BTW...I think this thread belongs on the RT.

tellomon

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2010, 10:49:58 AM »
Screw the Chicoms!!!!!
Flocking cabbage-heads.
No morals. No values. Too many of them junking up store shelves around the world.
And they wanna take over the Planet.

No thx!
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*CountessA*

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2010, 11:11:30 AM »
Yes, I agree. I'll move this to the RT.
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

cueperkins

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2010, 11:13:32 AM »
too right...now hear this.....ALL SITE OWNERS....ban Baidu..boycott cyber terrorism....do it...you know you want to...just press that button and send a strong message.......if they can hack Google, they can hack any site....Ban them now !!!   fight Back !!!

*Yibida*

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2010, 12:11:51 PM »


IMO If Google threaten to or or even do pull out it won't make any difference to the government in power over there... everyone jumps up and down at the atrocity's that happen there but what is actually done about it ?  ... Tiananmen Square comes to mind...students crushed by tanks because they didn't agree... what did all the world protesting accomplish ?... Zippo... company's are still bustin there asses to get the business in china.... money has no morals...  and the Government don't give a dam and never will... their stance has been the same for hundreds of years, and will continue, unless the people revolt themselves...

tellomon

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2010, 12:16:08 PM »
A very astute observation, m8!

Same principle applies to Mexicans.
Instead of staying in Mexico to clean up their house, they bop over to the U.S and trash it.

The World is full of bums.

Flog 'em!!!


"The world is full of kings and queens
who'll blind your eyes and steal your dreams,
It's Heaven and Hell...
...Oh well...."


-Black Sabbath
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cueperkins

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2010, 12:18:10 PM »
True Yib....but then it isn't that simple either....

The best thing people on the net can do is ban all Baidu spiders and keep them off every western site.....send a message, we WON'T put up with censorship of this nature, and we WON'T put up with cyber terrorism.....not on !!!

If every site administrator bans Baidu.....they can't cache information and they can't then attempt to take on Google....such as they are anyway...they're better than the type of censorship being imposed by one of the most powerful countries in the world.,....scary I tell ya...lol...and if they can hack google, they can hack any site and will....so ban em !!

tellomon

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2010, 12:21:47 PM »
Hack this:

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cueperkins

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2010, 12:23:15 PM »
You're a sick monkey....lol.

BTW...China owns most of the US debt....be afwaid, be vewy afwaid...!!!

low-enghooi

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2010, 12:26:35 PM »
... Tiananmen Square comes to mind...students crushed by tanks because they didn't agree...

I agree, but not for the student leader, like Wu'er Kaixi.

Here is a comment I copied from a Taiwanese website, and I agreed.

***********

June 4,1989 will be the day to be remember as TIENANMEN SQURE MASSACRE for those students and people who sacrificed their young lives in vain while you Wu'er Kaixi and other leadesr who lead them for the pro democracy movement escaped to America.

Where were you when the troops and tanks were coming in? Where were you when the students stood their ground and faced the troops and tanks and bullets and died?

In the video, I saw an unidentified brave man blocking an incoming tank. But that man is not a pro democracy student activist leader. That unidentified man was reported as missing. Wu’er Kaixi, are you brave enough to block and delay those columns of tanks advancing and give ample time to save as many as possible of your own classmates and other students lives who believed you and trusted you?

Twenty year after today. I realized that your only concern was your own aging parent. I don't believe your word by telling the reporter that you were going to turn yourself in. Because you only mentioned your aging parent and you forget to remember your classmates, and other students and their heartbroken families who lost their loved ones following you.

If you are brave enough and true to your believe twenty years ago. You should find your way into China.

You should not ask our President Ma and KMT to do you’re a favor. This time I understand you are not a TRUE PRO DEMOCRACY advocate of twenty years ago.

Don't forget my advice Wu'er Kaixi. A student activist leader is just like a ' CAPTAIN OF THE SHIP' that will be the last MAN to abandon the ship.

Why should we board your unworthy ship this time?

cueperkins

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2010, 12:31:15 PM »
Unworthy ship?....I think not......Low....I think the most important point for westerners was the fact that any government would even consider using tanks and soldiers against their own population.....the very fact that this does and did happen might be the very point of the pro democracy movement in china....just saying....don't blame those who try to overthrow such tyranny....

If that happened here, crikey, the people would send a very clear and strong message...it just wouldn't happen here....know what I'm saying?  Don't Chinese people deserve the same basic human rights and freedoms that we all enjoy, (nay in the western world)....That we take for granted??.....

tellomon

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2010, 12:32:56 PM »
Why should we board your unworthy ship this time?

 :keelhaul:
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low-enghooi

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2010, 12:50:37 PM »
China is too big a country for anyone of us to understand. Not even scratching the surface.

I think the most important point for westerners was the fact that any government would even consider using tanks and soldiers against their own population

This is nothing when you read about Wen Hua Da Ge Ming under the Mao ZeDong government.

http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/454604

Don't Chinese people deserve the same basic human rights and freedoms that we all enjoy, (nay in the western world)

I don't know how to answer that.

China owns most of the US debt

This is simply biggest joke for China. Her people is still suffering for all the basic needs, foods, water, electricity, education. Until all these problems solved, what is human rights and freedoms?



tellomon

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2010, 12:57:13 PM »
The Thought Police have your number, pal!

 :walkplank:
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cueperkins

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2010, 12:59:40 PM »
Low, it's not nothing, it's everything when we witness such blatant murder at the hands of a government against it's own population....Crikey as bad as the US is portrayed, they've never once imposed Martial Law on their own population....crikey...it's unimaginable in a real democracy....and it's totally unacceptable, no matter which govt in whatever country decides to implement such tyranny and state sanctioned murder.

blaming those who try to make a difference is ridiculous.....we all know that Chinese people suffer under the tyranny of China....(much less than they did fifty years ago though thankfully).. .....isn't it time China just fixes the problems in it's own backyard?......Unless the western world stands up against them, then they will continue to treat their people like dirt.....and ours whenever possible.

In Australia, we can't respect that.....I'm not sure what Malaysia is like.....I'm speaking as an Aussie.....

And......first you say....

Don't Chinese people deserve the same basic human rights and freedoms that we all enjoy, (nay in the western world)


I don't know how to answer that.


China owns most of the US debt


This is simply biggest joke for China. Her people is still suffering for all the basic needs, foods, water, electricity, education. Until all these problems solved, what is human rights and freedoms?

I just asked you...and will ask again, don't the Chinese people deserve the same freedoms and basic human rights such as food, education electricity water etc, as westerners take for granted?....obviously they do....!!!




tellomon

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2010, 01:04:00 PM »
food, education electricity water etc,

Those are not hand-outs from Tyrants.
They must be SEIZED by the People.
That's Revolution, Baby!
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cueperkins

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2010, 01:05:28 PM »
Viva La Revolution !!!!

*CountessA*

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2010, 01:39:47 PM »
Tyranny against the people is an atrocity that should sicken all of us. But I do believe that change is best when it comes from within a country rather than imposed upon it. I've seen too many instances of "white knight" action with countries going in to enforce change, but in my view with ulterior motives. This does not address a really crucial problem, though... When we see unequivocal instances of genocide or political murder imposed by a government upon its people, when the people do not wish for a totalitarian government but their government has such power and tight control that it seems it cannot be removed by the people, we must ask ourselves - for how long can the world stand by and merely watch as such terrible things occur?

What are the answers? I don't know... but I do know that I condemn utterly any international business that sits comfortably in a business relationship with China, complicit in this violation of privacy and the right to live without being tyrannised over, arrested, tortured and murdered. It is shameful to make a justifying ointment out of business in a country that commits these vile acts.
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

cueperkins

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2010, 01:44:58 PM »
Scuze us Tessa...just going off topic......mild intellectual relief with mindless DYI...that's Do yourself In...not Do It yourself....lol...there's a fine line between pleasure and pain....lol.

Anyway...yes...lots of factors but if a country can't be trusted to understand basic human rights and our mutual disgust at state sanctioned murder,...it seems it's they who must get to democratic puberty...not us....we don't kill our own people..not under any circumstance....that's the difference.

low-enghooi

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2010, 02:01:20 PM »
.....I'm speaking as an Aussie.....

Yes I know. And therefore I want to say, it is not only the government that kill the people. It is also about the people (mostly students) who kill the people.

The Great Cultural Revolution, 1966 - 1976

cueperkins

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2010, 02:06:18 PM »
...and we as a free democracy to most extents.....appreciate this and wish that other cultures/countries could have the same....that's all mate....the Aussie Fair Go...is an entrenched cultural aspect....we don't like people who stand over people....it just ain't Australian...

Eureka Stockade and all that...we have our own history of tyranny...and thank gord....we ended up being a democracy....just saying......culturally...we're bound to differ...I know nothing of Malaysian history, but....jeese Low...I just love Malaysian food...bring it on buddy.....whenever you visit Australia......put your hand up mate...always welcome in my home...lol....Cheers matey.

low-enghooi

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2010, 02:16:26 PM »
Many thanks Cupie. Please let me know the food you love and if I can mail it to you.

Back on topic, http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2010-01/15/content_9328782.htm

tellomon

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2010, 02:20:49 PM »
 :sinbin: :snipe:
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*CountessA*

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2010, 02:22:06 PM »
Quote
The problem is Google.cn simply cannot compete with its main domestic rival, Baidu.com. A report from China Internet Network Information Center (CNNIC) shows that as of September 2009 Baidu.com's market share in China stood at 77.2 percent, far stripping Google.cn's 12.7 percent. In fact, the majority of Google's users in China choose Google.com as their first choice.

After nearly five years' pushing for the brand of Google.cn and after investing heavily in Google.cn, their efforts in the Chinese market are simply not successful, to say the least. Kai-fu Lee's abrupt departure from Google in September 2009 wasn't helpful, either. To answer for its investors and for shareholders to understand a not so favorable environment of global economy, Google's decision to pull out of China comes as no surprise.

Indeed, Google is not the first or only one Western Internet firm that fared miserably in China's Internet market. The online auction and shopping website E-bay's defeat against the domestic Taobao.com, Alibaba's acquisition of Yahoo China, and QQ.com's dominance in China's instant messaging market, to name just a few, seem to have already foretold Google.cn's fate.

China's censorship, as a matter of fact, is just Google's management's ingenious excuse to flee the Chinese market in which they failed their investors and shareholders. For one thing, Google entered the China market after censorship was instituted, not vice versa. If anything, China has been loosing its censorship since Google's entry. The best proof is perhaps the free debate over the installation of the filtering software Green Dam, in which the Chinese government finally budged.

A number of notable "mass incidents" are also freely discussed on the Internet - the mass protest over the death of a girl in Weng'an county in Guizhou province, the mass protest over the death of a chef in Hubei province, and the waitress who resisted sexual advance by killing a local official, not to mention quite a few corruption cases that have been brought to the spotlight through the Internet.

Many claim, most likely with ulterior motives, that the shutdown of Google.cn will leave Chinese netizens isolated from the outside world. That is, simply, untrue. The closure of Google.cn has little, if any, effect on the Chinese users, as Google.com, its global website, is the primary channel they access to search for information. Unfortunately, Google didn't even bother to explain that.

Google's motivation was clear and simple: to earn its share of this huge market. When the company cannot attain the goal and pocket enough money and hopes to find a way out, the Chinese government and its censorship, which the West frequently picks up, just become two convenient scapegoats.

How disingenuous.

You'll see quite a lot of this sort of thing - an attempt to slant the appalling fact of censorship and hacking and spying so as to turn attention away from this and onto commercial issues.

Is Google's stance money-related? Possibly. Does that negate the moral and ethical implications of its stance? Of course not.
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

cueperkins

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Re: Google no longer willing to continue censoring search results in China
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2010, 02:24:07 PM »
Like Propaganda from China and say Japan during a particular war..... is a new thing?...lol...this IS a war...it's just on a different battleground...Hey world leaders?.....wakey wakey..hands off snakey.....