Combined invoice problem

[*Brum6y*]

The Technical Issue:

Scenario:

* Seller has a single item listing.
* Buyer purchases item.

(Nice and easy so far - but stay tuned.....)

* Seller has multiple item listing with 3 available.
* Buyer then purchases all 3,
* Seller invoices 1 + 3
* After some confusion, it was sorted out - the buyer only wanted 2 of the multiple.
* Seller uncombines.
* Seller tries to issue a combined invoice, with only 2 of the multiple items - but the system auto ticked the third!
* Seller steps buyer through Mutual Cancellation on one of the multiple items.
* Seller tries to issue a combined invoice, 3rd item still shows.
* Seller gets FVF returned and archives the cancelled item
* Seller invoices again - Looks good!!!
* Buyer tries to pay but all 3 of the multiple items come up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

- Buyer and Seller give up...
- Seller sends manual Paypal invoice.
- Buyer pays.
- Goods can be sent - but no-one is covered.

All through this debacle, the buyer and seller were keeping in contact and it was confirmed the buyer was clicking on the right things.

Has anyone else experienced this?  What is the answer?


The Human Factor:

Here is a quote from the buyer during the battle...

I have tried everything I can think of.  All I received from ebay today is a headache.  It's now 7pm.  Turning off computer until tomorrow after lunch.

... and this is 'improving the buyer experience' ... ?

After finally getting the payment through, the buyer was apologetic for all the trouble she had caused and hoped my seller would still let her buy from them.  (There are some lovely buyers out there.)



So here we have buyers that want to purchase quality, genuine goods (located in Australia!) offered by this seller who is going out of their way to look after their buyers, despite the minefield presented by eBay and Paypal - and there are a few buyers out there that can, and do, appreciate that.

Clearly, this buyer wants to continue buying from this seller - but the seller will need to offer the buyer an 'improved buyer experience' (to borrow a phrase) to encourage this.

They may find this on Oztion.  They will definitely find it on the seller's own website.  But for this buyer at least, the 'improved buyer experience' will be sought anywhere but eBay.

[low-enghooi]

I don't remember I have this problem, but interesting scenario.

After finally getting the payment through, the buyer was apologetic for all the trouble she had caused and hoped my seller would still let her buy from them.  (There are some lovely buyers out there.)

.............

So here we have buyers that want to purchase quality, genuine goods (located in Australia!) offered by this seller who is going out of their way to look after their buyers, despite the minefield presented by eBay and Paypal - and there are a few buyers out there that can, and do, appreciate that.

.............

Clearly, this buyer wants to continue buying from this seller

.............

They will definitely find it on the seller's own website.

Now this is very interesting. Why don't the seller offer the item to this buyer directly? Then he/she don't have to worry about ebay/paypal. Why go to ebay when the seller already have a happy committed buyer? Why let ebay share the profit?

[*CountessA*]

http://help.ebay.com.au/Help/Policies/Rules_for_everyone/Trading_outside_eBay

eBay prohibits email offers to buy or sell listed items outside of the eBay site. Offers of this nature circumvent eBay's fee structure and are a potential fraud risk for both buyers and sellers. Some examples of prohibited off-site offers include:

    *      Offering to buy or sell a listed item outside of eBay
    *      Cancelling a listing to sell to a buyer who has not bid on the item
    *      Ending a listing early to sell the item at a higher price to the leading bidder
    *      Offering to sell an item to a bidder in a Reserve Not Met listing
    *      Offering to sell duplicate or additional merchandise to unsuccessful bidders, other than in accordance with eBay’s rules about Second Chance Offers

Although outside of eBay offers are not permitted, sellers may be able to sell items to unsuccessful bidders by sending a Second chance offer
Potential risk of outside of eBay offers

Even though offers to buy or sell outside of eBay are not always made with the intent to defraud, there is always a significant level of risk involved. Please be aware that items purchased as a result of an outside of eBay offer are not eligible for eBay services, including:

    *      Feedback
    *      Requests for contact information
    *      Coverage under the PayPal Buyer Protection Program

Some members have reported receiving outside of eBay offers from sellers who insist that payment be sent using a third party wire transfer service, contrary to eBay’s Accepted payments policy. Wire transfer services are designed to allow individuals to send money to trusted parties such as family and friends. Requests to wire money to an unknown third party present a significant fraud risk, especially when the seller is offering to sell outside of the eBay site. It is for this reason that eBay does not permit payment by wire transfer.  If you have received an offer of this nature, please report it to us immediately by forwarding the email that you received, including the header information, to spoof@ebay.com.au.

Although other offers to buy or sell outside of eBay may or may not be made with the intent to defraud, there is always a significant level of risk involved. Please be aware that items purchased as a result of an outside of eBay offer are not eligible for eBay services, including feedback, contact information requests, and the PayPal Buyer Protection Program.

Reporting outside of eBay offers 

    *      Contact eBay to report an off-site email offer from a seller
    *      Contact eBay to report an off-site email offer from a buyer

To report any other outside of eBay offers, contact eBay with the item number that the offer refers to, the User ID or email address of the member you are reporting, and a copy of the email with the full headers attached.

If you have received an unsolicited email offer to purchase an item that is not related to a specific item number, see the Spam page for information on how to report the offer.

Transactions outside of eBay 

Transactions outside of eBay are not eligible for eBay services, including feedback, the PayPal Buyer Protection Program, the Item Not Received Process, and the Unpaid Item Process. If you knowingly or unknowingly transacted outside of eBay and believe you were defrauded, please review the Transactions outside of eBay page to learn more about the steps you can take.

eBay do make it plain that this would be against their rules, and they do react quite strongly to reports that such transactions are occurring, including seller suspension.

Is it worth the risk for sellers who absolutely need to rely on eBay for their customer base?

[*Brum6y*]

Low, Countessa has covered the why here very comprehensively.  To have cancelled this whole transaction and invoiced direct would be a clear violation.

If eBay were to discover such a thing had happened, the seller would be dealt with under the provisions eBay have defined.

Any mitigating circumstances - such as this invoicing problem - might provide grounds for eBay to reconsider and lift any sanctions, but don't expect this to be easy or a given.


What this situation does create is interest in future purchases somewhere other than eBay.

Since my seller has a globally unique (well, Googley unique at least) trading name, a search will find them on eBay, OZtion and their own website.  My seller will not need to try and arrange 'off-eBay' sales through eBay ... the buyer will find them by their own means which, because of this exercise, will be excluding eBay.

EBay - improving the buyer experience?  Categoric FAIL!

[low-enghooi]

Low, Countessa has covered the why here very comprehensively.  To have cancelled this whole transaction and invoiced direct would be a clear violation.

Fair enough. I am not talking about existing transaction, but future purchase. Something for your seller to consider, make full use of ME page. For very brief introduction: http://www.skipmcgrath.com/auction_sr/ebaytoursite.shtml

EBay - improving the buyer experience?  Categoric FAIL!

Remember business is about problem solving. Why do seller get angry when ebay fail to solve the problem? Aren't this a good business opportunity for anyone with a good solution?

Aren't the seller objective is to ask ebay to get lost?

************

http://help.ebay.com.au/Help/Policies/Rules_for_everyone/Trading_outside_eBay

Sorry to say, over the years, ebay has implemented many rules that they will never be able to enforce. This is one of it.

eBay prohibits email offers to buy or sell listed items outside of the eBay site.

There are better way to handle this. Of course it is unethical to cancel any outstanding transaction, but nothing is too wrong to work within ebay boundaries to encourage (I mean email) the buyer to buy items outside of ebay site. All are legitimate ways.

1. ME page.
2. Classified ads.
3. Insert your name card, or any promotional material when you ship your items.
4. Follow up with the buyer with email other than the one you registered with ebay.
5. Setup newsletter and invite the buyer to join.

And all this at the marketing cost of ebay. You only invest your time and ebay marketing machine make sure you loaded with too many prospects that you don't have time to complain, but work on your business. Good deal?

************

For every good and bad reason, I love ebay. They do every funny things to please people. They are too cute.

[low-enghooi]

Is it worth the risk for sellers who absolutely need to rely on eBay for their customer base?

You are right, not worth it. I pity those sellers who absolutely need to rely on ebay, and shut down all other possibilities. Such are rare people and they need to be heavily protected. Only ebay can do it.

[*Brum6y*]

Low, Countessa has covered the why here very comprehensively.  To have cancelled this whole transaction and invoiced direct would be a clear violation.

Fair enough. I am not talking about existing transaction, but future purchase. Something for your seller to consider, make full use of ME page. For very brief introduction: http://www.skipmcgrath.com/auction_sr/ebaytoursite.shtml

Sorry - old idea.  One thing though ... ME page needs traffic to be effective.   My seller has an independent traffic monitor on their ME page - and not many people check it out, despite having a link and invitation in every listing.  It is the least effective of the options my sellers utilizes.

EBay - improving the buyer experience?  Categoric FAIL!

Remember business is about problem solving. Why do seller get angry when ebay fail to solve the problem? Aren't this a good business opportunity for anyone with a good solution?

EBay caused the problem - and the solution found excluded both the buyer and seller from eBay's much vaunted 'protection'.

If you noticed - both the buyer and the seller were unhappy.  Fortunately, the buyer at least understood where the problem lay - which means that this situation wasn't an 'opportunity' as such that needed to be converted - it presented a ready and willing customer ... signed, sealed and delivered.  How bad did eBay do when the buyer emails the seller after finally getting payment through apologising for all the trouble and hoping my seller would still sell to her?????

Aren't the seller objective is to ask ebay to get lost?

************

http://help.ebay.com.au/Help/Policies/Rules_for_everyone/Trading_outside_eBay

Sorry to say, over the years, ebay has implemented many rules that they will never be able to enforce. This is one of it.

eBay prohibits email offers to buy or sell listed items outside of the eBay site.

I have to disagree very strongly here.  EBay CAN enforce that rule.

In fact, eBay can enforce that rule EVEN IF IT IS NOT BEING BROKEN.  Somebody just has to hit the 'Report' button and the seller is shot down.  From all reports, proof is something the seller has to provide to demonstrate they were NOT in breech - and they'll have a right royal battle about it, too.

You make the mistake thinking that eBay act legally and ethically.

There are better way to handle this. Of course it is unethical to cancel any outstanding transaction, but nothing is too wrong to work within ebay boundaries to encourage (I mean email) the buyer to buy items outside of ebay site. All are legitimate ways.

1. ME page.
2. Classified ads.
3. Insert your name card, or any promotional material when you ship your items.
4. Follow up with the buyer with email other than the one you registered with ebay.
5. Setup newsletter and invite the buyer to join.

Haven't gone into classified ads - seem expensive for what is offered.  Besides, my seller has a diverse range of products within a particular market.  To cover it with Classifieds would be expensive.

As for the rest - been doing them ever since they started selling...

And all this at the marketing cost of ebay. You only invest your time and ebay marketing machine make sure you loaded with too many prospects that you don't have time to complain, but work on your business. Good deal?

EBay provided my seller with a place to test their market and provide 'proof of concept'.  That was a 'Good deal'

Three years on and eBay has changed in so many ways that if they were to try to do the same now, they would write it off as a bad idea.

I discuss business plans with my seller and they are unimpressed with what they get from the fees they pay.  I made the point that while eBay is able to attract buyers, then it is worth maintaining a presence there ... in essence, using eBay for advertising - minimising profit expectations to the point of writing off any losses as an advertising expense.  So it is still a 'Good deal' in a way ... but needs buyers ... ie. traffic - and that is falling.

Where the 'Good deal' sinks into the mire is looking at my seller getting wound up about DSRs, feedback, Paypal and a dozen other hoops, that you don't find anywhere else in the eCommerce world, they have to jump through to keep their eBay business in Good Health.  This is anything BUT a good deal - and if it weren't for eBay's marketing pull, my seller would be long gone.

************

For every good and bad reason, I love ebay. They do every funny things to please people. They are too cute.

You're entitled to your opinion - but I can't share it.

The 'funny things' eBay do to please some people are often quite draconian, frequently unethical and sometimes illegal - and can unfairly hit other people very hard.


The only non-maniacal laugh I could raise about eBay's 'funny things' might be if Jerry Seinfeld took them to town.

[*Brum6y*]

Is it worth the risk for sellers who absolutely need to rely on eBay for their customer base?

You are right, not worth it. I pity those sellers who absolutely need to rely on ebay, and shut down all other possibilities.

Who said anything about shutting down all other possibilities?

Or even shutting down ANY other possibilities?

Blind faith in eBay is not something I have seen in any serious seller.  They will be there because it suits them, but they will be wherever else that works for them too, as long as they can manage it.

If a serious seller is only trading on eBay, you can bet your boots that the reasons for doing so will not be centred on tunnel vision.

Such are rare people and they need to be heavily protected. Only ebay can do it.

Call me a cynic, but eBay continues to act in a way that is entirely consistent.....

If eBay does protect such a seller, it will be a by-product of protecting its 'bottom line'.  By all accounts, eBay would appear incapable of consciously doing so.

[low-enghooi]

Is it worth the risk for sellers who absolutely need to rely on eBay for their customer base?

OK. Maybe I misunderstood the meaning of the word "absolutely".

*****************

I have to disagree very strongly here.  EBay CAN enforce that rule.

Consider this. A seller has a shop (and luckily also a website). He also sell on ebay. I first buy from him on ebay. I am happy. I know he has a shop (he doesn't has to tell me, because I love google and I will find his website.)

So I go to check out his website, and buy something off his website. This is transaction outside of ebay. Is this violating ebay rule? I hope you say NO.

Consider another case: I bought a coin from an honest seller. I am happy. Unfortunately he doesn't own a website (for many reasons.) After the transaction (ebay take the fees), we chat a bit. I know he has a few other coins I want, so we proceed to private sale. Is that also violating ebay rule? Again I hope you say NO.

Consider yet another case: I subscribe to a newsletter by an ebay seller. One day, I receive his newsletter and there is a coin I want. I proceed to buy the coin. Is this violating ebay rule? Please say NO.

And this is all I want to tell in earlier post.

*****************

You make the mistake thinking that eBay act legally and ethically.

NO I didn't say that. You want to talk about ethics with the big name? Sorry I don't believe such animal exist. Legal? I don't have the money to engage legal advice, so everything they do is "legal".

Sorry to divert a bit. I think Microsoft is both unethical and illegal. So what? I use Windows everyday. Give me Linux? No way! I don't like Mac either.

*****************

Sorry - old idea.  One thing though ... ME page needs traffic to be effective.

That's right. I will add, targetted traffic is what you want. If you have the traffic and fail to entice people to click on your ME page, sorry to say, internet marketing seems a big challenge to you. If you don't have the traffic, I don't know what to say. Obviously you can't blame anyone here. I forgot to say, not everyone can do it. But doing it can only helps you, even if it is the smallest bit.

Another thing I love is newsletter. I don't mind telling you there is a coin dealer I hate him so much, but I will "hide" that feeling for a short while when I receive his weekly newsletter. I don't know if one day I will change my mind and buy some coins from him.

Imagine if you have a mailing list of 10000 people for a specific product you sell, and if you have 1000 products. You have to work this way, and use ebay to help you add the number to your list.

Now if you have the list and you still fail to sell your product. There is this thing we called joint venture. I am not saying sell your list of email address to spammer. I am saying sell other people product to your list.

*****************

Haven't gone into classified ads - seem expensive for what is offered.

What else should I say? Find me another e-commerce website with such high traffic volume who will place your ads for 30 days for US$10 (on ebay.com) Ebay Australia may have a different rate, please check.

You (sorry your seller) need to test the strategy. Not dump all your effort in one strategy. That is going to fail.

Classified ads is hot, and people have been reporting success stories. Sure there are people who fail miserably. That is the norm. To me the success stories are more important as that is the way we learn what works.

*****************

it presented a ready and willing customer ... signed, sealed and delivered.

You know how hard to find a ready and willing customer. So why leave it to ebay? If I am the seller, I will do everything to make him/her happy, and tell him/her to buy directly off my website in the future. We forget about ebay. As a seller, I am still happy with ebay. Why? If not for ebay, I will not find that ready and willing customer. I am very happy because that stupid ebay screw things up. The more they screw up the better to me as a seller.

*****************

I made the point that while eBay is able to attract buyers, then it is worth maintaining a presence there


That is not the way with ebay. You want to attract prospects to your website. Who care about the buyer? Whatever you sell, you only can have maximum one buyer per one item. How about those who bid but didn't win? How about those who view your listing but never do anything? Do you think you may have something they want to buy? I hope you say YES and that you want to find out who these people are.

*****************

OK. Continue to discuss this way, we will probably ended up no where.

My point is: I don't care if ebay is ethical or legal. Really I don't have the money to challenge them. They are here and going to be here for the foreseeable future. Same goes to Microsoft. And maybe Google? Oracle is definitely on its way. I read they plan to acquire MySQL.

And talking about Google, they will implement (or already implemented) personalized search result. Don't you also see this as a potential problem?

Yes my approach is a bit negative. But I rather we concentrate on the solution.

If you (or your seller) still need ebay, maybe life will be easier (or happier) if you see the negative as an opportunity stupid ebay awarded to the creative seller.

If you can't laugh on ebay, have some fun here: http://www.weirdauctionlistings.info/

I hope your seller will at least go to this site and take a look at some weird listings. I hope he/she will at least appreciate some of these listings are actually very creative, and that some of the very best marketing brain uses such listings to market their business. And most importantly, they reported great success.

OK. If again, all these things fail, then at least have some fun. You probably won't see such funny listings elsewhere.

Please don't spend more time to prove me wrong. I know some of my points makes no sense to other people. I like to see every problem a golden opportunity, and that's me. No problem means no business.

Thank you.

[*Brum6y*]

You make the mistake thinking that eBay act legally and ethically.

NO I didn't say that. You want to talk about ethics with the big name? Sorry I don't believe such animal exist. Legal? I don't have the money to engage legal advice, so everything they do is "legal".

Sorry Low, but that last statement made me cringe.  EBay knows they are safe from individual legal challenges for exactly that reason and a Class Action takes a bit of coordination and commitment from multiple parties.  But you can be sure to see eBay quick to respond if any Class Actions are brought because they know they are in unsafe waters.

Bleaaahh!!  -  Still cringing.


As for 'off eBay' transactions, the two examples you cite are quite OK - but the point I was making was that if a seller had two such coins with one listed on eBay and one on their website and along came a button pusher who saw the two, they could report the seller, cite their website entry and the seller would be pounced on by eBay.

Forget the fact that it is clearly NOT a violation -

But then everything eBay do is 'legal', isn't it?

You (sorry your seller)

Please. I have made it abundantly clear in each and every post where I mentioned my seller that they are who I say they are.  Our relationship is exactly as I have presented it and their reasons for abstaining from forum posting are no secret among sellers.  The insinuation in this comment is that I am lying.

If that's how you need to view things to feel comfortable, then I feel sorry for you.


Oh yes....  I presented the OP in the hope that someone might have been able to offer an answer to the technical invoicing issue and to report on the impact of the exercise for the benefit of other members - and EBAY, who DO read these forums.

Not for a lesson on how to suck eggs.

[low-enghooi]

The insinuation in this comment is that I am lying.

Not for a lesson on how to suck eggs.

SORRY.

Not my intention. I don't even know that comment carry such meaning. I am not that bad person. Thought I have a few good bits to share, clearly I am not.

My sincere apologies and I will shut my mouth.

Thank You.

[*Brum6y*]

Low - when a comment is made in conversation and then corrected, that is one thing.  It has been said and nothing can undo the fact that it has been said, so a correction is appropriate.

But when it is made in a typed comment, such as a post, it requires deliberate action, such as punctuation, and the opportunity to remove or rephrase is available.

To have made the very deliberate effort to type what you did makes the insinuation real.  You will understand why I might not appreciate that.


As to my final comment, I was frustrated that you did not seem to be addressing the points I was making - which may have been unfair.

As for 'shutting up' .... all I can say is - don't let my bad day kill your interest.