Author Topic: Put tax on foreign online sales, says Harvey Norman boss  (Read 14073 times)

*wheels*

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Put tax on foreign online sales, says Harvey Norman boss
« on: November 23, 2010, 03:58:25 PM »
Put tax on foreign online sales, says Harvey Norman boss

http://www.news.com.au/business/put-tax-on-foreign-online-sales-says-harvey-norman-boss/story-e6frfm1i-1225959473871

THE Federal Government should place a good and services tax (GST) on products bought from overseas online retailers, Harvey Norman chief executive Gerry Harvey says.

Mr Harvey said local retailers were at an "unfair disadvantage" in competing against goods bought from overseas.
Australians can buy goods online from overseas and not pay duty for products under $1000.

tellomon

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Re: Put tax on foreign online sales, says Harvey Norman boss
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2010, 06:12:49 PM »
Apparently...



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bnwt

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Re: Put tax on foreign online sales, says Harvey Norman boss
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2010, 06:26:41 PM »
but best of all Mr Norman

they no longer have to deal with retarded staff in your stores

*Brum6y*

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Re: Put tax on foreign online sales, says Harvey Norman boss
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2010, 07:31:11 PM »
Hmmmm .... an "unfair advantage" is ... 10% ?????

I just bought a part from the USA. It cost $6.05 AUD to be delivered to my door. Local supply had it at over $11 ... and I would have had to go get it.

You want the extra 61 cents Gerry? I'm happy to give it to you if you want it.  Just message me and I'll give you an address from where you can collect it ... and if you're really that conscientious, you can add it into your next BAS.


10% extra is not enough to dissuade buyers from importing to any great degree. Double the price for local purchase is what drives dollars overseas.  It's simple math.

Another example of simple math is that collecting these small amounts will cost more than they yield.  That's why the $1,000 threshhold was established in the first place.  Running a government department at a loss just doesn't make sense.

*r3830*

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Idea: GST To Be Included On Offshore Purchases.... Any Thoughts?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2010, 10:34:55 AM »
This has been a rather hot topic in Sydney recently. The owner of one of the major retail stores up here is pushing for a tax to be added to overseas purchases in a effort to make local sales more attractive. Mind you - even were a tax of 100% added - offshore would still be the cheaper option other than visiting his place.

When you think about it..... he buys overseas to sell here....

*smee*

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Re: Idea: GST To Be Included On Offshore Purchases.... Any Thoughts?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2010, 10:53:31 AM »
I think its a good system they have in place now , ie: no gst on items less than $1000 ...its no different to having duty free fags and grog etc upto a certain limit . do the tobacconists and liquor stores here blow up about that ???? I havent heard them whinge , they seem to accept it

*Ubbie Max*

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Re: Idea: GST To Be Included On Offshore Purchases.... Any Thoughts?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2010, 11:00:04 AM »
I'm with you on that one Smee. Besides, even if GST was whacked on O/S goods under $1000 in value they would still be cheaper than here, in most cases.

*r3830*

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Re: Idea: GST To Be Included On Offshore Purchases.... Any Thoughts?
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2010, 11:01:48 AM »
Agree smee - Remember the argument with buying imported DVD's that were 'Regionally Limited'? The ACCC stated that it was within the rights of a purchaser to buy elsewhere where they could get a better deal. So, why impose a tax on this thing? (crikey - that reads like a wonk statement.... government is out to tax everything they can sink their hooks into.)

moonlight

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Re: Idea: GST To Be Included On Offshore Purchases.... Any Thoughts?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2010, 11:05:46 AM »
it is an interesting conundrum r3830

I see part of the problem is our own high retail prices here which are in part driven by high wages and low productivity. I won't try and start a debate on that issue however. I also see part of the problem is availability and supply.
Here are some examples of recent purchases.

1 - Advance / retard assembly for XS 1B 650 Yamaha

price inclusive of delivery from USA = AU$87.00
price in Australia at bike shop ( have been trying for 22 years for supply of part mind you ) $189.00 + 10 %. When I originally ordered the part 22 years ago it was $128 plus 21 % sales tax. It never arrived and after several follow up enquiries I gave up.
When ordered from USA recently it was here within 7 days.

2 - Photostudio program on CD

Not available in Australia unless you buy a printer / scanner etc and use the software supplied.
From UK in less than a week and cost was $17.00 inclusive of post.

Australia needs to be more competitive and shape up in the way they do business. Over the top retail prices and poor service when sourcing difficult to find items is the main reason I go overseas.
I see a 10% tax as a money grab and in no way will influence my buying decisions except to drive my hate of revenue collectors off the scale

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*wheels*

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Re: Idea: GST To Be Included On Offshore Purchases.... Any Thoughts?
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2010, 11:19:16 AM »
I doubt they will ever introduce it. The time and paperwork involved in importing goods just over $1000 is out of proportion with the taxes that are collected. The cost of implementing a tax on low value items would never be recovered.

*smee*

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Re: Idea: GST To Be Included On Offshore Purchases.... Any Thoughts?
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2010, 11:28:04 AM »
it makes sense not to introduce it , probabley all the more reason why the govt will introduce it , their track record of making economically sound decisions  isnt flash

bnwt

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Re: Idea: GST To Be Included On Offshore Purchases.... Any Thoughts?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2010, 01:31:33 PM »


When you think about it..... he buys overseas to sell here....

r3830

while it is true that buys from overseas, he has to pay GST to land the items ... GST on the Customs Inspection as well as GST on the Import Duty and finally GST to ship the goods from the ship to his warehouses

and people wonder would why we have such high prices in shops .... and then not to mention the massive rents charged by the likes of Westfield and don't forget you have to pay GST on that rent as well

*r3830*

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Re: Idea: GST To Be Included On Offshore Purchases.... Any Thoughts?
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2010, 04:33:44 PM »
I understand his costs bnwt,,,,, but then, the occasional overseas buyer isn't declaring multi million dollar profits either.

Moonlight - you're example is a good one. I rebuilt my 1981 XV750 off ebay in the US.... no parts available here. (even had to modify the control switches) The GST on those purchases were very well offset by the postage costs.


*CountessA*

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Re: Idea: GST To Be Included On Offshore Purchases.... Any Thoughts?
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2010, 04:47:26 PM »
Australian RRP is not in sync with the RRP of the same/similar title overseas for the most part. That's something important to keep in mind.

Let's say a small bookseller orders books from his supplier; he pays RRP less his discount (30%, or 35%, on average, although with some suppliers or publishers it's even less than that - I know of 15% in a couple of cases) PLUS the delivery/postage charge. He keeps those titles in stock, so he's tied up capital in those titles.

He has considerable costs in running his business, as he has to pay rent, electricity, staff wages, insurance, and so on.

His stock is nicely arranged so customers can browse through the titles, handle them, check things like quality of the print on the page, thickness of the paper, glossiness of the paper, actual colour of the photographs (if relevant), flick through the book to see whether it still "grabs" them (or if it has age-appropriate language if you're buying children's books), etc.

The staff are there at hand: knowledgeable, experienced, able to give first-hand advice and suggestions based on what sort of things the customer likes to read. Really good staff can even guide customers away from titles that aren't really appropriate or good as gauged by the staff from talking with the customer. (Book blurbs can be very misleading.)

I hold to it that this is an entirely different purchasing experience than hopping on to Amazon. I believe there are occasions when it's better to go to a shop than to buy online, and is really helpful to get advice and to gain some idea of the physicality of the goods before you buy. Amazon is fine if you know exactly (and I mean EXACTLY) what you want and don't need it right now and so on... but even then, I've gone to b&m shops in preference to online places such as Amazon for a number of reasons.

I also hold to it that it is rude and offensive for a member of the public to go into a shop with no intention of buying a title from that shop, but simply use the shop as a "choosing ground", scanning barcodes and comparing prices which OF COURSE the shop can't match. If one wants to buy online and get the best price, fine - we all have the right to do that. But then don't go into a shop, using up the staff's time or taking advantage of the fact the shop is still somehow hanging on in this Valley of the Shadow of Retail Death. Do it ALL online; take the risk; make your choice; don't ask for expert advice from staff - that's just rude and selfish.

As far as GST to be imposed on items bought from overseas... no. I don't think that's the solution.

Part of what I see as the problem is that the public look at items on Amazon or Book Depository and honestly think that's the REAL price of the item. "If THEY can sell it for that - and they're obviously making a profit - then I'm not paying the fat cats HERE at their hugely inflated prices" is a general response. But it's false... because there are certainly small businesses who MUST buy from the Australian supplier of a publisher (for distribution rights reasons - and they can be in enormous trouble if they try to bypass the Australian supplier because the publisher/supplier WILL take legal action), who do NOT get an enormous discount, and who have to somehow survive with some rather pathetic margins - not to mention being told how much cheaper Amazon is by the unaware public.

Yes, there are sellers in Australia who are making money hand over fist - they have enormous profit margins, etc., etc. Those are the sellers who can be beaten down on price - JB Hi-Fi, Harvey Norman, Dick Smith, etc. But there are small businesses in various genres who are not making money like that at all.

Have you noticed that apps in the Australian iTunes store are still more expensive than apps in the American iTunes store? Even when we recently had parity with the US dollar?

Hmmm.

I would suggest a good start to the issue of more expensive prices in Australian shops lies with enforcing fair prices for the Australian RRP by the manufacturers/publishers/suppliers. Then Australian small businesses could begin to compete on fairer ground.
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

*r3830*

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Re: Idea: GST To Be Included On Offshore Purchases.... Any Thoughts?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2010, 05:58:15 PM »
GREAT to see you Countess.

The person responsible for the suggestion of an added GST was Gerry Harvey - of Harvey Norman.... the company that offers 10,616 days interest free! If he's upset about dwindling sales, I truly don't know how the small sellers are managing. These small people are both the inventors and owners of the term 'customer service', and they do this so very well. How would such a tax affect our sellers, here on this forum? Not being a seller myself, do Ebay sellers have to include a GST component in an offshore sale? And if so - who does this go to.... our government - or the buyers own country officials? I note that there is a tax component added for purchasers in California.... but the same is deducted for a purchaser here in Oz.

If I could broaden this matter a tad further..... Harvey's argument is supposedly about competitive equilibrium. How could our government support such a thing - given their position on our nations primary producers? Our farmers are not supported by any level of tariff that protects them from overseas government assisted imports.....  so how is that a competitive situation?

Over the past two weeks here, I have been converting the downlights in the house to LED, from what were 50W Halogens. (LEDs run 94% cheaper at 3 Watts) The first four from a local retailer cost me around $100. (approx $25 ea) Three of these failed shortly after install. I've since shopped on Ebay - and sourced a very similar product from Hong Kong .... the difference being they cost me $6 delivered. And yes - they look the same, they run the same, they are completely compatible with the existing setup, they are at Australian Standard - and they last for 50,000 Hours. Nil failures to date. The drivers for these lamps locally cost $16.... overseas - $6 delivered. Given these numbers, why would you shop locally? And, as far as customer service is concerned, locally, there wasn't any. They had the things on the shelf - but were quite unable to answer a number of basic questions. I found the answers to these things on the net.... and in broken chinese with a very nice Honkinese gentleman.... who couldn't have been more helpful.


*r3830*

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Re: Put tax on foreign online sales, says Harvey Norman boss
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2010, 06:10:52 PM »
My apologies wheels - I missed your post on this subject - and created another. I wonder if our topics can be merged..... countess?

*CountessA*

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Re: Idea: GST To Be Included On Offshore Purchases.... Any Thoughts?
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2010, 06:17:19 PM »
Points well taken, 43830 - and it is great to see you too!

I strongly believe in excellent customers service in Australia's small businesses. If a shop's owner & staff aren't giving customers a reason for shopping there in preference to buying from overseas sellers, there's no question we'll all be buying overseas.

I think I've been very lucky with the businesses from whom I have bought. I believe that bad customer service is the exception for me in my experience rather than the norm.

Re Mr Harvey... I hear that many other sellers are telling him he is a numpty. Do you watch the Gruen Transfer? If so, you might recall the episode in which Mr Harvey animadverted against the owner of the Kogan line of goods. It illustrated yet another example of him behaving contrary to his business's best interests.

Just as an aside - I don't buy from Harvey Norman.
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

*CountessA*

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Re: Put tax on foreign online sales, says Harvey Norman boss
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2010, 06:25:14 PM »
Can and shall be done... Voilà.
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

low-enghooi

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Re: Put tax on foreign online sales, says Harvey Norman boss
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2010, 06:29:51 PM »
All interesting reply.

I must say I did have good experience buying from Australian supplier.

Last year we bought a 14" monochrome CRT monitor for our CNC machine from this site http://fanuc.cnc-drives-controls.com.au/monitor.html for A$500 or about 1500 Ringgit Malaysia delivered to our factory. As we need the monitor urgently, they ordered from UK and shipped to us directly and we received it in 1 week time. Just perfect. It is cheaper if we could wait for them to build the monitor in Australia but we can't wait.

From local supplier it cost us a whopping 9000 Ringgit Malaysia and a 2 months lead time. They can't provide better service than that.

Nothing special here. It is just a CRT monitor. I don't know where my local supplier get his stock from.

*r3830*

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Re: Put tax on foreign online sales, says Harvey Norman boss
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2010, 06:41:36 PM »
Many thanks for the swap countess.... I now feel far less embarrassed!  ;D

I don't buy from Harvey Norman..... Well, that makes two of us!  :applause:

In a couple of my previous lives, I worked for two different computer companies. One was as a Sales Manager, the other, a Service Manager. They were both very different roles - but enjoyable experiences. When I was having an off-day, as we all do from time to time, I used to go to the Harvey Norman store.... their computer department, and watch their sales people at work. A customer would come in and be attacked by a salesperson. On the extremely odd occasion where the customer would share the computer purpose... ie: I need a word processor.... they would be directed to the dearest system in the shop. The next customer who was akin to Yib - a trailblazer in high tech gaming - would also be directed to the dearest computer in the shop. I always thought this practise odd - as the first customer could have found happiness with a much lower priced model. Customer service wasn't the driving force - it was about sales, and commission.

I still vividly remember one customer who visited and told me of their HN experience. Their new system had failed, so they contacted the store for assistance. The store staff weren't interested at all - simply referring their customer to the computer company for advice. It was not their job to assist - only to sell. Had they actually listened, they would have fixed the problem just as I did. The mouse and keyboard plugs were reversed.

*Brum6y*

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Re: Put tax on foreign online sales, says Harvey Norman boss
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2010, 06:53:22 PM »
The impact on a small import may not just be the 10% GST.

My seller friend had a shipment that got caught up with some import charges (which it shouldn't have) and they ended up paying not just GST - but processing fees, storage costs and I don't know what else.

I'm not sure of the value of the shipment, but it was clearly under the $1,000 AUD limit.... and, all up, they ended up paying an extra $298.  It was a surprise cost of well over 30%.


Since those extra fees are a high percentage on low value shipments, the only way to reduce their impact is to spread them over more merchandise ..... which means buying bigger overseas and importing more.

*Brum6y*

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Re: Put tax on foreign online sales, says Harvey Norman boss
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2010, 07:07:41 PM »
I, too, find the idea of using a B&M for research and then shopping online somewhat rude ... but to stand in the shop and use something like Redlaser, suck the staff dry of info and disappear out the door to buy it online is simply offensive.

Maybe Poddy and myself could see if there is a market for 'Faraday cage' shop construction. That would cut all external radio signals (including mobile phone/internet) from getting inside the shop, so anyone checking prices would have to step outside all the time ... which would make them very obvious.

Additinally, maybe setup a wifi hotspot running through a proxy that was programmed to inflate prices on any websites related to the business....

Norti me.

moonlight

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Re: Put tax on foreign online sales, says Harvey Norman boss
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2010, 07:28:56 PM »
just as an interesting thought and purely hypothetical of course.

If such a tax were to be introduced would it be removed when the $$$ slides back to 80 cents.

I doubt it.

 ;D
If people need to know the truth then seek the answers. If I am so unpopular it is because I say it as it is

*r3830*

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Re: Put tax on foreign online sales, says Harvey Norman boss
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2010, 09:06:27 PM »
If such a tax were to be introduced would it be removed when the $$$ slides back to 80 cents.

Some here may remember the NSW introduced tax..... 3x3 Fuel levy. It was 3 cents per litre over 3 years - to improve state roads. The levy, which is still current, was introduced in 1989. Just goes to show.... politicians of all persuasions have difficulty counting past two.

*smee*

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Re: Idea: GST To Be Included On Offshore Purchases.... Any Thoughts?
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2010, 12:42:38 AM »
it makes sense not to introduce it , probabley all the more reason why the govt will introduce it , their track record of making economically sound decisions  isnt flash

I knew it , I just knew it .... this useless Labor govt couldnt resist

Sydney Morning Herald ..

http://www.smh.com.au/business/shorten-considers-taxing-web-shoppers-20101123-185op.html



Shorting web shoppers
Jacob Saulwick
November 24, 2010


THE government is considering applying GST on more imported goods in an attempt to help retailers struggling to compete against online shopping.

Gerry Harvey, the chairman of Harvey Norman, yesterday joined a chorus of retailers asking for government help in the face of a high dollar and the drift to online shopping. He predicted a bleak Christmas for many stores and said GST revenue lost to internet shopping would knock a $1 billion hole in tax collections.

''The government can't just ignore it,'' Mr Harvey said. ''They can't just say it is too hard, it is too much money … it is sending retailers broke.''

Imported goods worth less than $1000 are exempt from the GST. The government asked the independent Board of Taxation to examine the threshold early this year, but the board said reducing the threshold was not ''administratively feasible''.

However the Assistant Treasurer, Bill Shorten, told the Herald that the government would still consider doing something.

The ''government understands the concerns of retailers and other stakeholders about this issue, particularly in light of the high Australian dollar,'' Mr Shorten said. ''It deserves serious examination and, while the threshold is good for consumers, we need to balance that against the interests of retailers and the administrative burden on businesses.''

Speaking after his company's annual meeting, Mr Harvey admitted his estimate of $1 billion in lost GST revenue was plucked from the air. But he said the issue was not going away. ''No one's making a big noise about it, but they will be,'' he said.

Internet shopping is estimated to amount to about $12 billion a year, about 4 per cent of total retail sales.

The executive director of the Australian Retailers Association, Russell Zimmerman, said a survey of his members this week about the threshold received the largest response of any research the organisation had done.

''If we are not careful, then this year it might be $12 billion, next year it might be double that, the next year it might be double that,'' Mr Zimmerman said.

A spokesman for the consumer group Choice, Christopher Zinn, was sceptical about whether the government should step in, particularly as the dollar could easily decline in value.en considers tax

*r3830*

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Re: Put tax on foreign online sales, says Harvey Norman boss
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2010, 10:27:06 AM »
Poor Gerry Harvey - tell him he's dreaming

Poor little Gerry Harvey says he can't make a profit selling televisions. Well don't then. Scratch any red-blooded free-market-loving capitalist and you'll find someone who either wants a monopoly or government assistance.

And as for those damned sneaky little consumers daring to circumvent rapacious landlords, retailers' mark-ups and a little GST by shopping overseas on the internet, the Harvey Norman boss wants the ATO to crack down on them before they irrevocably destroy the fabric of Australian society. Oh Gerry, if I didn't know you better, I'd think you'd lost the plot.


http://www.smh.com.au/business/poor-gerry-harvey--tell-him-hes-dreaming-20101124-186nm.html

Shorten backpedals on online tax (It should be remembered.... this bloke makes prime Ministers for a living!)

The federal government is playing down reports it is considering applying GST on more imported goods in an attempt to help retailers struggling to compete against online shopping.

‘‘There is no policy proposition about GST on online shopping,’’ Assistant Treasurer Bill Shorten told ABC Television.


http://www.smh.com.au/business/shorten-backpedals-on-online-tax-20101124-1868q.html