Is PayPal safe to use on eBay?

[night-hawk-1]

Is PayPal safe  to use on eBay?

Recently when checking some facts on PayPal, I had cause to read the PayPal User Agreement and was shocked to find what I had believed as a long term eBay user was incorrect.

I was of the understanding that any auction on eBay that had the PayPal protection logo ensured that I was protected and would be refunded should the seller fail to send an item to me (say, in the case of the seller absconding or the item disappearing for whatever reason).

Here is the section of the PayPal User Agreement that shocked me - it's actually from the associated Buyer Protection Policy specifically for eBay transactions.

PayPal Buyer Protection Policy

This policy applies to eligible transactions on www.ebay.com.au.

PayPal Buyer Protection Policy is our policy to help buyers to recover payments made in respect of eligible items purchased from the Australian eBay website (located at www.ebay.com.au) when: (a) goods are purchased but not received by the buyer (also known as “item not received”), or (b) goods are delivered but are "significantly not as described" in the eBay listing.

If your purchase meets the requirements for the PayPal Buyer Protection Policy (set out in paragraph 4 below), PayPal may try to recover your payment from the seller, ie to attempt to reverse the PayPal transaction. IMPORTANT: If you are eligible under PayPal's Buyer Protection Policy, and you claim that the item purchased is "significantly not as described" or you did not receive the item PayPal may attempt to recover your payment from the seller, but recovery of your payment, whether in whole or in part, is not guaranteed. However, where PayPal is unable to recover the whole or any part of your payment from the seller for a claim, PayPal may at its absolute and sole discretion, decide to make an ex gratia payment, not exceeding the financial limits set out in paragraph 3 below.

In order to be considered for such a discretionary payment under the PayPal Buyer Protection Policy, your purchase must have all of the characteristics set out in paragraph 4 below and you must comply with all of the buyer responsibilities in paragraph 6 below. IMPORTANT: Payment by PayPal under PayPal’s Buyer Protection Policy is at PayPal's absolute and sole discretion. You have no automatic entitlement to receive any payments. PayPal's Buyer Protection Policy does not indemnify you for the loss which you, as a buyer, may incur and it is not a contract of insurance.

This has been this way since 17 June 2008.

PayPal also has refused to be party to the EFT Code of voluntary conduct that all OZ banks and financial institutions have signed.

The EFT Code of Conduct is administered by ASIC, who recommended during the ACCC submission period that PayPal sign the EFT Code.

The reasons they won't sign is that it would make them conform to Australian legislation making them accountable and they would also have to guarantee your funds.

Does that worry you? It should.

PayPal has the reputation of refunding buyers in case of a problem of item not being received or item Significantly Not As Described (SNAD), but did you realise PayPal consider this a "discretionary payment"? That means none of us can think, "Yeah, we're safe. We paid by PayPal" without fooling ourselves. At the moment, PayPal are paying those refunds. Most of the time, they're getting those refunds for eBay purchases back from the seller. Sometimes they're not. But the worrying thing is that they have contracted themselves out of their obligations to their members.

PayPal may work fine in many cases. But I realise that there's no guarantee of PayPal protecting its users. That scares the living daylights out of me. Many people trust PayPal - but the user agreement is practically saying, "Don't trust me completely! I'll only protect you for as long as I feel like it, if I feel like it."

PayPal - Safe, yeah.

[tamsy72]

Agreed Hawk, the user agreement is typical of a big corporation that refuses to be tied down in any way.  Too many 'mays mights and possiblies' for my liking too :-(

[*CountessA*]

I use PayPal - but cautiously, and only when there's no viable alternative. You raise some good points, Hawk - there isn't any guarantee to protect the buyer. It is, as PayPal has said, at their discretion.

In practice the refunds seem to be happening, but I've come across many occasions where the buyer is told there will be no refund even though the claim is resolved in his favour. This is due to a misapplied policy - people who purchase on eBay by PayPal, whose purchase meets the criteria set by PayPal, should have the Buyer Protection Policy applied, but (either by mistake or not) too frequently the wrong policy is quoted by PayPal as the reason for not refunding.

This is an important issue - we need to alert consumers to the potential problem, and give them some helpful information about how to proceed if it happens to them.

It comes down to being aware of one's rights, being cautious, understanding the limitations PayPal imposes, and hoping that PayPal will give a refund if merited. So far, when challenged, PayPal appears to have been giving those refunds. I hope it continues to do so, but there's nothing to prevent PayPal from saying, "NO", except the perception it wants to promote of being safe, I suppose.

[*Yibida*]

And don't forget :"the ombudsman is your friend" watch Paypus buckle when he get's involved.

[*Yibida*]

And don't forget :"the ombudsman is your friend" watch Paypus buckle when he get's involved.

By the way..I wonder if there's such a thing as a mrs ombudswoman ??

[*CountessA*]

I'd imagine that the "man" in the word "Ombudsman" is gender-non-specific. If we have a female Ombudsman, calling her Ombudswoman would be ... wrong, wrong!

On the other hand, are you suggesting that Mr Ømbudsmån, the well-known Swedish representative for Lost Norse Sparrows, is married? That there is a Mrs Ømbudsmån? If so, I suspect Mrs Ømbudsmån would not be happy by knowing that Mr Ømbudsmån's attractive blonde assistant stayed in the same hotel as he, during the International Convention on Lost Feathered Things.

[col52]

Agreed Hawk, the user agreement is typical of a big corporation that refuses to be tied down in any way.  Too many 'mays mights and possiblies' for my liking too :-(

Isn't that how ebay operates full stop?

[col52]

I'd imagine that the "man" in the word "Ombudsman" is gender-non-specific. If we have a female Ombudsman, calling her Ombudswoman would be ... wrong, wrong!

On the other hand, are you suggesting that Mr Ømbudsmån, the well-known Swedish representative for Lost Norse Sparrows, is married? That there is a Mrs Ømbudsmån? If so, I suspect Mrs Ømbudsmån would not be happy by knowing that Mr Ømbudsmån's attractive blonde assistant stayed in the same hotel as he, during the International Convention on Lost Feathered Things.

How about "Ombudsperson" instead?

[da_ewok]

MInd went blank........ was going to say something before this next comment

PP and Ebay - the buyer protection is really only relevant to Ebay and nothing else - they PP/EB) are relying on people getting confused to ensure more people use PP thinking that are safe

and once again - brain waves interupted

[col52]

MInd went blank........ was going to say something before this next comment

PP and Ebay - the buyer protection is really only relevant to Ebay and nothing else - they PP/EB) are relying on people getting confused to ensure more people use PP thinking that are safe

and once again - brain waves interupted

Don the tin foil hat...........ebay waves must be getting through.

[da_ewok]

Thanks COl - I think I have managed to block the bad waves - the tin ffo hat is in place

Let's see if that works - I thought I was feeling better   

[col52]

Thanks COl - I think I have managed to block the bad waves - the tin ffo hat is in place

That's good

Let's see if that works - I thought I was feeling better   

That doesn't sound so good

Try sitting on the floor facing the direction of the setting sun, arms outstretched (palms up), chanting:

"ebay is not my leader
I choose not the darkness
I transfix myself to the light
The waves of evil will bypass me
The light of the Merlin will engulf me"

Repeat until the darkness fades from your mind.

[da_ewok]

ebay is not my leader - never has been - never will - I just tag along for the fun