Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2

[*smee*]

Yes I once listed an item as auction with a BIN price and it sold that quickly at BIN  I wondered what happened , as it didnt show in my items selling section on my eBay page and yet the system had moments before told me that my listing was successful , I was pulling my hair out wondering why I couldnt find listing I never thought of looking in sold list as it was actually only seconds after listing , it got to the stage where I was in the queue waiting for dead help when my mail pinger went off and I checked my emails and it was the item sold message   

[low-enghooi]

Yes Smee. I had similar experience.

I once wrongly listed a pretty valuable note at face value BIN. I realized I made a silly mistake immediately I hit OK buton to list, but someone has bought it. Faster than light. I have to tell him I made a genuine mistake, but he didn't accept it. I didn't honor the sale and was expecting a negative from him. He was very unhappy but didn't leave me one. But that was too much to lose if I sold to him.

[gr8-expectations]

i had that happen with ruby lane smee for a US$320 book which was rare (but rare is an abused word on ebay and elsewhere but this really was rare) it was my first evening on RL i had just joined and the next morning (a few hours later) the item had sold, lovely lady had been looking for the book for years ... it does happen, yours was a bit faster though lol minutes/seconds not a few hours ...

[gr8-expectations]

Yes Smee. I had similar experience.

I once wrongly listed a pretty valuable note at face value BIN. I realized I made a silly mistake immediately I hit OK buton to list, but someone has bought it. Faster than light. I have to tell him I made a genuine mistake, but he didn't accept it. I didn't honor the sale and was expecting a negative from him. He was very unhappy but didn't leave me one. But that was too much to lose if I sold to him.

low if you make a genuine mistake you should not be penalised and i believe you are entitled to pull out of the sale as you did, lucky on the feedback though, the guy must have thought about it and calmed down, he prolly knew it was a mistake for sure and was being opportunistic

[low-enghooi]

He was very angry and threatened to bring it up to ebay. I was getting ready for the worst but nothing happen.

I wonder how he found my item in mere seconds after listed, not even a minute.

[*Brum6y*]

I wonder how he found my item in mere seconds after listed, not even a minute.

Considering the global exposure eBay offers, it is bound to happen occasionally.

It is one aspect of the marketing advantage that eBay offers that I wouldn't argue against.

[gr8-expectations]

He was very angry and threatened to bring it up to ebay. I was getting ready for the worst but nothing happen.

I wonder how he found my item in mere seconds after listed, not even a minute.

LOW he prolly had a search programmed to alert him if items fitting his description were listed you can do it on ebay but you can also do it through 3rd party programs low like www.auctionsieve.com and have it search globally, its a freebie and worth using if you are looking for a particular coin or item, you enter the basic search criteria, which country which site(s) etc. i have used it for books i am looking for an it found a really rare one recently for me at a great price

[tellomon]

Venue.

[low-enghooi]

you can also do it through 3rd party programs low like www.auctionsieve.com and have it search globally, its a freebie and worth using if you are looking for a particular coin or item, you enter the basic search criteria, which country which site(s) etc. i have used it for books i am looking for an it found a really rare one recently for me at a great price

This is so cool. Just download and now running the first complex search 
Many thanks gr8.

[tellomon]

Now try the Smileys!

[low-enghooi]

I can't Tello. Have to hide all the images at work.

[tellomon]

Ouch!

[Philip.Cohen]

Have a look at this few from another used Rolex watch dealer, “melrosediamonds”:
http://offer.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=230407641595
http://offer.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=330383750182
http://offer.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=330387191646

Have you ever before seen so many common single-digit-feedback bidders nibble bidding such large sums of money on an eBay auction. And have you ever seen so many single-digit-feedback and “newby” bidders win so many high-value auctions?

But the most interesting aspect of this seller’s auctions is that the spreadsheet analysis of a good number of his auctions discloses that a great number of his habitual bidders are common to my old friend, “beckertime”; funny that, is it not? Indeed, I would suspect that there must be some connection between these two sellers.

I have to wonder how many of these sales are for real? Apparently, neither of these shill bidders has yet woken up to the fact that they can make their shill IDs look more legitimate by buying some feedback for them at a penny-a-pop.

The spreadsheets at: http://home.exetel.com.au/philipcohen/eBay/

The game then is to try to spot the legitimate bidders, if any …

[tellomon]

This again?

[Philip.Cohen]

http://offer.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=130352713715
81 bids from 23 bidders! Would someone try to explain to me what all this nibble bidding is about—apart from the diluting of their own auction bidding activity statistic? Of course, with eBay’s devious masking of bidding IDs, we have no way of ascertaining what either of these two gross nibblers is up to, but certainly it has nothing to do with any attempt to buy a Rolex watch.

[gr8-expectations]

yes bizarre Philip, never seen anything like that especially at the price the items at, highly suspect

[Philip.Cohen]

Here’s another funny one:
Rolex Submariner Two Tone 16803 (16613) "R" 1987

Sold: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Rolex-Submariner-Two-Tone-16803-16613-R-1987_W0QQitemZ220523649090QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item33583bd842

Relisted/Resold: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Rolex-Submariner-Two-Tone-16803-16613-R-1987_W0QQitemZ220530372748QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item3358a2708c

But, only one common bidder: 3t(806); bid $3667 on the first auction and only $222 on the second; how odd.

[Philip.Cohen]

This buyer has been busy. Any comments?
http://offer.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=390143190077&aid=t***b&eu=%2FPAvg8apGkKes%2FYabDrimV%2BcxgbpTCic&view=NONE&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_None_ViewLink

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 3897
Items bid on: 2153
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 0%   
Bid retractions: 2
Bid retractions (6 months): 17

[*Brum6y*]

That link isn't working.

Try This:390143190077

[Bazza]

I do wish you'd say what you think is wrong with the bidders activity Philip. I see someone who buys to re-sell and obviously successfully.

[Philip.Cohen]

In your dreams Bazza.

Next thing you will be telling me is that there is no real problem with shill bidding on eBay; that eBay has it all under control? What say you Bazza?

[Bazza]

I say, I see nothing un-toward in the latest example you posted. Please by all means point out exactly what you see. Or is it impossible for someone with that bid history to be honest?

[Philip.Cohen]

Bazza,

Let me see you say that, in your opinion, there is no problem with shill bidding on eBay; that any problem there is, eBay has under control; and I will attempt to then answer your question.

[Bazza]

As you well know Philip, I've made my views on shill bidding known here.

How about you back up what's so suspect about the bid history you highlighted.

[Philip.Cohen]

And I have made my views on eBay very clear on the auctionbytes forum, starting at:
http://www.auctionbytes.com/forum/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=6502877
(if your powers of concentration are sufficient to absorb the matter of it)

Frankly, I don't know why I bother to even respond to your pathetic defending of eBay; your time would be better spent moderating the eBay forums; fortunately you don’t get to delete our critical posts about eBay here, only offer nonsensical responses.

But, you did not answer the question on whether on not you think shill bidding is a problem on eBay and whether or not, if there is any problem, eBay has the matter under control. A simple yes/no to each question is all I ask. Is that too hard for you? When you do that I will offer you a further comment on the other matter.

Without wishing to offend you Bazza, you are either very naive in the ways of eBay (and the stock market), or your are a professional eBay seller happy to take advantage of eBay’s deliberate obscuring of shill bidding, or you are simply an eBay stooge; which is it?

[Bazza]

This buyer has been busy. Any comments?
http://offer.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=390143190077&aid=t***b&eu=%2FPAvg8apGkKes%2FYabDrimV%2BcxgbpTCic&view=NONE&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_None_ViewLink

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 3897
Items bid on: 2153
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 0%   
Bid retractions: 2
Bid retractions (6 months): 17

You highlighted it, you explain what's wrong with it.

You always resort to insults Philip, when you have nowhere else to go.

[Philip.Cohen]

And you still have not answered my two simple questions, Bazza. Take your eBay-coloured glasses off and have a look at the facts of the real world, and stop trying to push that eBay barrow up hill, you are only going to strain yourself. eBay is still going down hill and no matter how much spin you eBay appologists/stooges put on it the abyss gets closer and closer ...

[Philip.Cohen]

Auction Nr: 390143190077 (ended 21 Jan)

Bid History:
http://offer.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=390143190077

The bidder placed five bids in $5 increments, within one minute, until he was the then winner at $158, on an item that ultimately sold three days later for $466.

Bid History Details:
http://offer.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=390143190077
The latest stats (at about 7am):

Bidder: t***b (10773)  
Feedback: 100% Positive  
Item description: Ladies 1920's 9Kt Gold Rolex Wrist Watch Superb Dial NR
Bids on this item: 5

30-Day Summary:
Total bids: 4149
Items bid on: 2283
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 0%  
Bid retractions: 2
Bid retractions (6 months): 17

4149 bids on 2283 items from at least 28 sellers (who knows just how many sellers, there’s only two sellers that appear more than once in the 30-Day Bid History, does that suggest 2000 odd?). That’s an average 138 bids per day on 76 items. And if you refer to the 30-Day Bid History, those bids are not one-off proxy bids/snipes as you might expect from someone (insane enough to be) trying to buy on eBay to resell on eBay; these are apparently manually placed nibble bids.

And you are going spend all the time required to look for all this very different stuff, manually bid on it, maybe win it, get it, and then relist it for sale on eBay or elsewhere in the hope of making a profit on it? Maybe this guy is building up stock to open a B&M second hand “hock” shop; but then if you are going to do that you have to bid to win not bid to lose. Now, he does have considerable feedback, but that does not mean much these days …

Of course now that bidders IDs are masked it’s almost impossible to check the bona fides of winning bidders and its absolutely impossible to check the bona fides of such underbidders. Gee, Bazza, is the system now working the way you and John intended—a total lack of transparency?

I’m not sure what’s going on. Own-auction-activity stats diluting, maybe?

Buying to resell? Give me a break. …

Maybe you should tell turkey John that all this lack of transparency and this Bid History Details facade only makes our distrust of eBay greater, if that is at all possible. Then, I suppose, John will be grabbing his golden parachute soon, so he really does not care what happens to eBay in the long run, and that is a shame.

In closing, if you don’t mind, Bazza, I would prefer it if we could simply ignore each other in future; I know what sort of unscrupulous organization eBay is, and I see no point in attempting to debate such eBay issues with what I think are representatives of eBay’s “department of spin”.

[Philip.Cohen]

http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=AllFeedback&userid=euroachat2009&iid=-1&de=off&interval=0&items=200

Would anyone—except Bazza, please—like to apply some normal persons’ logic to this feedback situation.

Private auctions, of course. One main buyer with private feedback, of course. Dealing in feedback?

Also, how can anyone have so much feedback and yet have a feedback count of only 79?

[*CountessA*]

This particular example is startlingly obvious.

Until you reach the first page of feedback, all of the positives come from one eBay ID. The negatives seem to be a mixture of buyers who realised they'd been scammed, and 0-feedback IDs purchasing in order to show that this "seller" is indeed a fraudster.

We could postulate of course that the 0-feedback IDs are a rival trying to destroy the seller's feedback, but in light of the unambiguous pattern of the positive-giving "buyers", there is no sane conclusion other than that those positives are given by the seller's own alternative IDs. Here are the reasons for concluding that.

1. The positive feedback is given by IDs which are created in two groups on these dates: 24 November 2009 and 27 November 2009. They all have 0% feedback. They are all "private".
2. The wording of the feedback given is repeated among these IDs. A striking example is "arrived in 2 days.does exactly what it says on the tin.many thanks". This phrase is used by the following IDs: rickybenn24, nickysimmons16 and samsmith19steven.
3. The ID samsmith19steven is the only other positive ID bothered with from the feedback on 24 January 2010 onwards. The conclusion is inescapable that the seller became tired of logging in and out as various other IDs.
4. The ONLY positive feedback given is by samsmith19steven or those other 0-feedback IDs created on either 24 November or 27 November.

I don't even need to comment on the silly names created by this individual - you can see johnlennon, katherinejenkins, leonalewis... a tad obvious, hmm?

This is one of the most blatantly transparent shill-bidding exercises I've ever seen, and it's my guess the initial purpose was to build up a false reputation, followed by the purpose of trying to overwhelm the negatives with fake positives.

[*Ubbie Max*]

Wow. This would have to be one of the most blatant examples of serial shill bidding I have seen and I'm sure it would also be obvious to all normally prudent people.

It is interesting to note all the listings were private. We can't go back & see how many bidders were bidding on each item.

 

[shyer]

http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&ftab=AllFeedback&userid=euroachat2009&iid=-1&de=off&interval=0&items=200
Would anyone—except Bazza, please—like to apply some normal persons’ logic to this feedback situation.

This probably is a bad attempt to counter an Auction bomber. On page 4 a geniune buyer drsrom1 has got upset and with limited english could mean to be threatening seller. Most negatives from then on are 0 feedback ids with a few other ids likely to be friends and realatives. What seller has not realised is all his same buyer " samsmith19steven" his first buyer as well. Need 7 days between auction and feedback time to register otherwise they do not count in feedback.
I agree with countessa a lot of earlier fake ids built feedback, seller got lazy. I suspect the seller is a fraud but the best way to remove seller, is to get multiple paypal disputes found against seller. In my observation no new small seller survives 3 paypal forced refunds within 90 days.

[*Ubbie Max*]

Shyer. The seller has no items listed at this moment. His/her feedback percentage 74% (from memory) is very poor probably one of the worst % I've seen for a long time.

[shyer]

Shyer. The seller has no items listed at this moment. His/her feedback percentage 74% (from memory) is very poor probably one of the worst % I've seen for a long time.

Yes ubbie, 74% WAS bad, I however see ebay moving quickly to the amazon model, stars. And even less transparency than now, just numbers of sales and DSRs. And woe betide any seller falling below the ebay "AVERAGE" of 4.XX . Thus I predict more hidden shill "perfect" feedback sales. More listing fees for ebay and all professional sellers with a star 'buffer' topped up when nesecary, All details hidden.

Will look good for a while till the buyers start losing faith again. My experince is over 90% of buyers have no idea how to interpret feedback, let alone bothering to read it. Instead blind faith in pay$pal, till they get bitten. That is ebays game plan, pay$pal propoganda EQUALS more pay$pal profits.

[Philip.Cohen]

Countessa,

The most fascinating aspect of these types of situations is that it happens right under eBay’s nose; and eBay with all those “proactive” and “sophisticated” systems that they claim to have for the detecting of such unscrupulous activity. Well, I think we all know, as it can be clearly demonstrated, that those “sophisticated” systems are simply all deceptive PR spin.

The point I would keep making, again and again and again, is that yes, there are many fraudsters and scammers operating on eBay, and although eBay does not actually issue them written invitations to come and practice their craft on eBay, the effect is the same because eBay does not care about some of the matters—as long as they don’t affect them financially; they are happy, in the short term, to profit from such matters as shill bidding; indeed, they appear to be quite deliberately facilitating it via the devious bidder masking; how the Poms cope with the absolute form of masking they have to put up with I do not know.

To eBay, revenue is the only thing that matters. Actually, that’s not quite right either, it’s profits that count; from those these unscrupulous, grubby, little executives concoct their performance bonuses.

[Bazza]

Strange Philip that you would determine that I be excluded from this discussion. The site has a new administrator? No.

I would agree with you in the case of the latest ebay user you've brought to our attention. There's something very, very wrong with that feedback.

It's not shill-bidding, but there's something amiss. I'd go with the fraudster covering their backside to drown out the negs (badly). Auction bombed is a possibility.

I'll be sure to flag Johnno at the next board meeting.

[Roo]

Bazza...are you Monman???

 

[Bazza]

Roo, why does it matter who I am. Is Roo your real name?

[Philip.Cohen]

Philip Cohen is my real name. You can even find me in the phone book. I am quite prepared to express my views openly; not from behind an anonymous pseudonym.

[Bazza]

You are a truly unique individual Philip. I'm of the opinion that no-one really cares who's behind the username. It's the content of your posts that people will judge you on.

*runs to check phone book*

[Philip.Cohen]

And you really think that an anonymous comment carries the same weight as an attributed one; just goes to show how naive you eBay employees really are.

Surely, with the funds eBay as squirreled away outside of the US they could afford to buy some better quality lobbyists. No, maybe not. Is anyone sure that they actually have any money squirreled away overseas? They certainly never seem to have any money to pay any dividends to the stockholders: naive stockholders. Then, the very great majority of stockholders have got absolutely no idea of what is happening with their funds—until there aren't any more of the funds left ...

[Bazza]

And you really think that an anonymous comment carries the same weight as an attributed one

Yes Philip, I do. Particularly in your case.

As I read through posts on this forum, I'm not seeing too many real names. Do you think you have any more credibility than other members here? Perhaps not.

[Poddy]

I'm of the opinion that no-one really cares who's behind the username. It's the content of your posts that people will judge you on.

There is some truth in that, but backing up sweeping statements with some verifiable facts is what gives any statement uttered the weight that it needs to qualify for an argument or have any credibility.

bazza I have not seen too many of your sweeping statement backed with facts but I have see a lot of baseless opinions.

Personally I don't give a rats who you are, if you talk sense and can back your words with fact then they will carry some weight and credibility but sweeping statements an opinions carry no more weight than methane.

[Philip.Cohen]

Once again, Bazza, the point goes over your head, or maybe you just deliberately ignore it—like all the other eBay lobbyists. You should take a look at the Seeking Alpha website when an eBay story is running, there are a couple of eBay lobbyists who appear there, one in particular, "eBay+++" (now that does say it all), that reminds me a lot of you.

[**cupie**]

Well Said Pod.....must have been reading my mind..

Hi Phil.....How are you on Australia day...in fine form I see...lol...cheers.

:corkhat:

[Bazza]

Happy Australia Day

Sweeping statements?

I'm still waiting to hear what it was that Philip found wrong with this bid history:
 
http://offer.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=390143190077

This is about as close as we've come to an answer from Philip: I’m not sure what’s going on.

Still worthy of highlighting? For what purpose?

[**cupie**]

Look Bazz......you seem to be the only one here on Australia day trying to pick a fight mate.....and quite frankly, Phil has provided examples, which you have swept aside with generalised statements...... (as if to frustrate, rather than elucidate) and even when other members take the time to review the 'example' given by phil and agree that it is obvious shill bidding (or something similarly devious).....you immediately go against the grain with no opposing factual argument...figure it out......lol...

I'll give phil a lot of credit for being upfront about his identity, sticking to his convictions and doing the hard yards.....you keep throwing spanners, and he keeps going to the trouble of explaining things, but you don't really want to know do you?....so why are you here ?....to make friends?.....to debate topics factually?....to hound phil in particular?.....to play the role of the 'victim'?......is it as obvious to you as is it to some of us?....just saying...lol...

btw.....

[Poddy]

Bazza,

Even eBay must have finally realised that there was something not in order.

this is the message that you get when you click that link

This listing () has been removed or is no longer available. Please make sure you entered the right item number.
If the listing was removed by eBay, consider it cancelled. Note: Listings that have ended more than 90 days ago will no longer appear on eBay.

[jdw2012]

Oohhh I havent been in here for ages, but so far, have comment that Riff isnt an ebay stooge mate!!!

[**cupie**]

ya reckon?.......not sure what side of the fence that's on but...what the hell...some will have their own interpretation....