Red Ink.. an interesting read on the new PP 30% Holding rule.

[Liisa-Sx]

Another kick in the A$$ From PayPal

Excerpt from a non seller complaint.

How about this one.. I am NOT an eBay seller. I only buy on eBay. I have NEVER sold anything on eBay. I just got hit with a 20% rolling reserve for 90 days because someone partially refunded my account due to damaged in shipping issue. I have NEVER sold anything on eBay so now if I get refunded for anything Paypal will be holding 20% of the refund. Sometimes I have accepted Paypal payments for things outside of eBay over the years like I loaned a friend $50 for a Baseball ticket and he paid me on back on his payday. So now I can't even do this without Paypal holding my money. Bad enough that they get a large % plus a PROCESSING fee for each transaction. When my friend paid me back the $50 I only ended up with $46 and change. IS THIS LEGAL its not like there is any reason for them to hold a refund! For that matter there can't be a chargeback without a sale, what is their excuse. I think we all have a class action suit here. This can not be legal to keep money that is has nothing to do with an eBay sale or can it!!! THIS appears to me to be FRAUD. PAYPAL is pretending that returned funds from a sale are an actual sale by me. I am not in business I only use Paypal to purchase items so if the seller has a policy to refund within 7 days this means Paypal can take a % of the refund and use this for 90 days to draw interest. I think this must be contested. ANY other buyers that have experienced this? I think Paypal intends to hold 20% of all sales in the future looks like they intend to take from both buyers and sellers.

So now PayPal also take a FEE to grace you with a rolling reserve.

OK now - Paypal state if you sign up for the "PayPal Money market scheme" you will earn interest on the funds they Hold under the Holding rule..... But beware...............

Paypal Money Market Screw Up, Dividends What Are Dividends?

Paypal Money Market Screw Up, Dividends What Are Dividends?So, anyone who happens to have a Paypal Money Market account—you may want to check your dividends for last month. For some odd reason, I have heard from many, many people that claim to have gotten completely shafted by Paypal in this regard for last month.

I don’t know if someone just missed a decimal point, but I’ve heard many people go from somewhere close to 5% at the beginning of the month drop down to less than 1% by the end of the month(a few have said 0.6%). Sure, to people with only $50.00 in the account, it may not mean much, but I know for a fact many users were coming up more than a few bucks short on last month’s dividend. And hey, over time, that does add up.

Apparently, Paypal Customer Service knows about this and admits “many people got shorted last month.” They have also been telling users that the problem “should be” fixed and you “should see” the money in the next 24 hours. Yeah. Maybe if you take the time to complain and sit on hold for an hour, then it “should be” fixed….

Remember people, unlike banks, the Paypal Money Market is not FDIC insured. I would recommend sticking with someone who is FDIC insured. I guess a few bucks here and there really add up for Paypal….way to go with the consumer trust!

[*Yibida*]

Boycot...world wide...every single user of this atrocity...it's the only way... our politicians have no testies...therefore no confidence from me... Nuf said.

[*r3830*]

Liisa,

Did this comment come off the US Site?

[Liisa-Sx]

Liisa,

Did this comment come off the US Site?

Yes it did come off a U.S forum (non ebay).. I have been watching several sites closely Both in the UK and the US and the cries of outrage are starting to reach fever pitch.

ALSO more cases are surfacing whereby if a Seller's Supplier gets their Funds held, the SELLER is linked via Paypal to the Supplier and will ALSO have their funds held... Guilt by association says PayPal.

[*r3830*]

Guilt???? Guilty of what????

Now, if Paypal isn't a bank, (as we have been reminded) but they are regarded as a Service Provider here..... Where's Cupie?? She is very aware of the arrangements within Aus. How would this arrangement affect international sales - where I initiate the purchase?

Sounds like Yib may well be suggesting a correct course!

Isn't it wonderful that our criticism here of whatever doesn't come under the control of the dark side!!!!!

[Liisa-Sx]

The holding rule is nothing more than a grab for account holder's cash for Paypal to use on the short term money market, they will, and do use any excuse they can think of to enable them to do so, on any and all accounts.

You only have to take a look at how many times a week their ToS changes, they lie as we all know and will continue to do so as long as they are not held to task by anyone.

They are making it up as they go along.

[*Yibida*]

[click]

[*r3830*]

PayPal

Top 3 PayPal Questions

Can PayPal hold my money with no explanation?  The answer is YES.
Can PayPal freeze my account for no reason?  The answer is YES.
Can PayPal take money out of my account without my knowledge?
The answer is YES.

[*Yibida*]

  

Hah ! here's a blast from the past... I could never work out where the hand was inserted?...

[some_other_bozo]

Awwww its widdle Smithy

how i miss thee

a true joke makers paradise that fellow

BOZO

[**cupie**]

Hi 'R'...I'm around.....no.....I doubt Paypal could do this type of thing here unless RBA gave them the seal of approval...and I can't see that happening given the last fiasco..

I have to do some research to find out who polices entities like Paypal.  i.e. when they refuse to provide adequate security or indemnity to account holders and yet, promote their payment system as the safest, whilst forcing all Ebay consumers to place themselves at risk joining it???....Just think about that for a minute....none of us want to be forced to use this joke of payment system because it places all of us at risk with its bullshit idea of security and its 'reverse all imaginable liability' User Agreement.  The simple fact is...we have no choice, we're strong armed into it, and we ALL know it's unsafe, complicated and frustrating !!!  I for one, have avoided even joining paypal....and it's been disadvantaging not being able to sell, given my rural location, but NOTHING will make me gamble with fraud or identity theft....Paypal is a joke.

APRA have nothing to do with policing Paypal, even though they license them...they're more concerned with prudential management, and let me tell you Paypal's guarantee is laughable  5% of stored value liabilities, which means, if they go under, they only have to give account holders 5% of what they had in their account?  Feeling safe yet?....lmao.  This issue however, if it was brought in here, would definitely have ramifications to Paypal's prudential management..i.e.  imposing a 30% bond on account holders, when Paypal themselves would only have to refund account holders 5% of that amount if they went belly up?...huh?...what if the amount you had to keep in your account was 200.00 for argument sake....Paypal force you to maintain that balance...and yet if they go belly up, they'd only have to give you back $10.00???  Sound fair? (just thinking out loud - the issue is complicated).

Perhaps ASIC would have some jurisdiction because they administer the Corporations Act, and the EFT Code.....someone has to be responsible for the lies Paypal is telling consumers and the complete absence of security against, and indemnity for, account holders in any fraud or hacking issue.

Yes....Ebay ARE a Service Provider (as is Paypal) and any case before a Fair Trade or consumer affairs tribunal would reinforce that FACT over and over again.....no money has to change hands for this relationship to exist.  

Surely the US and UK have similar regulatory bodies they could appeal to as consumers?

 

[*r3830*]

Cupie,

I also followed the fine examples set by yourself and Liisa in doing some reading. The US site is up in arms. Thought I might share a few things locally..... (off the US site: Paypal)

My paypal account was limited 6 months ago, and I had paypal lock the account, I looked at my checking account today and paypal did an ACH withdraw of 6300.00!!!! WFT!!!! I notified my bank to let them know money was stolen out of my account through an unauthorized transaction by paypal and they told me that paypal claims that I authorized the transaction!. I had to file a police report against Paypal in my city, and then give it to my bank. My bank says it's going to stop the funds and reverse it back to my account within 7 days. I was out of town for almost 60 days and looked at my bank records, seems as tho paypal has been withdrawing about 8.00 a day out of my account also. I also included this in the police report. Paypal went into my account without permission and took funds!... Beware, if you close your account, change your account numbers also!.

===================================

Today I just logged into my paypal to discover a new crooked act they have enacted. It is called Rolling Reserve. Basically what they are doing is taking 10% of our daily sales and holding it in their rolling reserve?!?!? This is unbelievable! I called and sat on the phone with paypal for 2 long hours this evening to try and find a reason why this is happening to us? Paypal stated they are planning to target every ebay seller with this new policy. Keep in mind we have received NO correspondence via mail, phone, or email regarding this new crooked act they are doing. Paypal told us the reason they are doing it is to minimize chargebacks. We have only had maybe 5 - 10 charge backs in a 1 year period. We always have had the money in our account to cover such losses if and when they happen. Paypal said they hold onto the money for 60 - 90 days. I called a few other power sellers I know and this has not happened to them yet. Is their anyone out their where this has happened to you? I would love to get some feedback on this. My gosh! We already give them thousands a year in fees just to accept money from buyers. Now this? It is time to re-think how all of us do business here on ebay!

=================================================================

Welcome to the club of PayPal victims. (This person has done his maths....)

I've run a business for NINE YEARS both selling on eBay and I also have my own three websites and I've used PayPal for financial processing all this time. My Positive Feedback rating on eBay is currently 872.

On September 2nd I received a phone call and confirmation e-mail from a Stacey Stewart ("Merchant Risk Analyst") at PayPal. She announced to me that I must give PayPal $30,000 of my money for them to hold as a "reserve", or they would start taking 15% of every day's sales transactions until a reserve of $30,000 had been created, and then they intend to keep that money as long as I choose to use PayPal (and of course, as per their draconian User Agreement, they would actually keep this money for 180 days AFTER I close the account). Unless of course they choose to increase that amount which she said they could do at anytime they wanted.

Their 15% take seems to be retroactive, as it appears to me they've taken 15% of the money from my September 1st transactions onward.

Here's the thing:

My net profit on what I sell is only about 8% to 9%. So I haven't just become a "not-for-profit", but I am actually incurring a negative cash flow now (it's a wierd feeling to be afraid I'll sell too much!).

And it will take at least 6 months to a year to build up all this money they want. In other words, I am sunk.

Even if the math worked, which is clearly doesn't, the thought of $30,000 of my hard-earned money sitting with a company such as PayPal, a company that is NOT regulated by federal banking laws and is NOT FDIC insured, well, it's a bit more risk than I care to incurr.

I am hoping someone else at PayPal is reasonable. Otherwise, I will get a merchant account at my local bank and be done with them. The little tiny 0.5% better rate they charge on transactions (2.5% vs. my bank's 3.1%) is chicken feed compared to the mafia tactics they are trying to force on us all.

I also have BIG TIME misgivings about this reserve idea because I think PayPal is committing corporate suicide with this new program. No one's money is going to be safe with them, because they're going to loose a HUGE part of their customer base.

Sincerely,

John Mohan
RadarDetectors1

===============================

.... and it doesn't end there.... A post last night (which I can no longer find) talks of reserves being heal against refunds as well. As I understand, Paypal regards a refund to a buyer in a similar way to a seller receiving payment. The mind boggles.....

[Liisa-Sx]

and let me tell you Paypal's guarantee is laughable  5% of stored value assets, which means, if they go under, they only have to give account holders 5% of what they had in their account?  Feeling safe yet?....

Cupie this is what I havebeen telling some members that are becoming fearful, the greater pajority of PaPal account users have absolutely NO idea of PayPals reach AND lack of accountability should anything go wrong, PayPal do NOT inform it's users in any concise clear manner exactly how utterly corrupt their user agreement is.

I took the liberty of calling PayPal and everything we mentioned here WILL eventually be attributed to the PayPal AU members.

Now I know the governing laws in Australia will limit payPal but just how much, and how much damage will be done before Users catch on, PayPal did NOT advise in the UK and US prior to implimentation.

It is not Safe to have a bank account Linked to PayPal period, anyone that has a Bank account Linked to PayPal is sitting on a financial time bomb, I did have one linked prior to waking up to the PayPal Pirates, I had my Bank Block ALL PayPal transactions to the linked account and withdrew it from payPal (hah), why Hah? you ask...

Hah, because if I had relied soley on me telling PayPal that I had revoked the linking of my Bank account and PayPal, I would have found as so many have, that in a few months, years, PayPal would have NOT closed the link via my request and still be fraudulently extracting funds... my way, the bank has stopped this from occurring in the future.

[**cupie**]

Liisa...I absolutely share your indignation with these thugs....and now that Ebay can no longer GAG us (cause we have ozrt), then we CAN voice our discontent as consumers...they gagged us on the RT, because we DID organise ourselves and gave em a good kick in the corporate gonads....Paypal only yeah?...guess again....Aussies don't take lightly to being extorted, and the saving grace is that we are only 22 million...bad publicity is a killer for ebay in Australia....word travels fast.  People will vote with their feet. Take no prisoners....Just say no !!!..lol

I like Tello's Idea if we could do it...mass strike.....reckon we can bridge the divide from UK, to US, to Aus?...I do !!!....hehehehe...let's be naughty...

[poison_ivy]

Yes and Cupie I think this time a lot will actually do it too.  This is more terrifying than anything else they have done.  I am only a smalltime seller and this would effectively make it pointless for me to sell at all.

**shudders**

[**cupie**]

Hi 'R'.....re: posts on the US boards...and HEY YOU 'TELLO'....WTF are the Yanks doing about it?...don't they know how to organise themselves and slam dunk these idiots?....Tello....is the US mighty myth just that? a myth?  World Leader?...ok.....'Show me the Money' !!!!  I'm about to be even more disillusioned with the ability of the US to lead anything but a shite fight !!!  No offense you understand...we lubs ya !!!..but I don't understand the apathy...there's so many of you !!!!...so few of us..and we get pissed off pretty quickly down under.

Maybe I should get some help making me a posting ID so I can post a worldview on the US boards?...I like to stir...I mean instigate...I mean....infuriate...or is that organise?...suggestions welcome...nuf said...!!!

[**cupie**]

Yes and Cupie I think this time a lot will actually do it too.  This is more terrifying than anything else they have done.  I am only a smalltime seller and this would effectively make it pointless for me to sell at all.

**shudders**

Hi Ivy..nice to sees ya....I'll be in it if you will...lol....that's what this place was initially all about...remember?...free speech, death of the RT....and that was only done to silence us, and make sure we couldn't organise ourselves against them once again.....but...hey anything is possible isn't it?...don't get me wrong, I'd love to list on Ebay again, but after 8 years, they've made it much too hard...it used to be fun..now it's a grind...yes?...and, like others, I got half way through the Paypal UA and literally ran...didn't walk to the back button !!!......just can't indemnify Paypal against all imaginable risk whilst giving them the keys to my B/account and Identity?..like for real?...lmao...you'd need your head read !!!

Sure !!  let's do something to make them accountable !!

Again...nice to see you back Ivy...!!!

[*r3830*]

Cupie..... I too share your concern.... however, the Paypal section of the Ebay US Site has somewhat 'lit-up' since last evening. The most serious aspect of this change was that it was made without notice, and from what I read, retrospective. Talk about limiting the options of the users! The statement from the Paypal person quoted also rings alarm bells....."Paypal stated they are planning to target every ebay seller with this new policy". Now that - would include those users here!

And regarding alarmism..... if these things don't at the least get people curious enough to conduct their own research... well, need I say more.

[*CountessA*]

r3830, thanks for copying-and-pasting those comments. It highlights the intolerable; it's almost like creating a society in which the lack of alternatives and the virtually punitive financial burden imposed by PayPal creates a nation of slaves.

Is this what Mr Donahue's grand vision for the future actually encompassed? That is, not so much creating a shopping mall as creating an indenture system which binds sellers to eBay/PayPal and scrapes not just the crême but the very substance of the sellers' profits, potential profits AND floats used to maintain the sellers' accounts until (if ever) they do make a profit?

Has it all along been a case of enslaving each seller, sending them into a spiralling debt situation from which they can never struggle free? Has it never BEEN about challenging Amazon? Is this whence Mr Donahue's perceived profit for the shareholders is to come?

If that is the case, it is shameful. It degrades every eBay/PayPal employee and every stockholder and every executive and every media representative applying the gloss - it makes associates in tyranny of everyone involved in perpetuating this.

I don't think PayPal is a bad idea. I think it had excellent potential. The points alarming so many, and putting off so many, are the lack of accountability, the lack of adequate customer service, the lack of fraud prevention, the lack of ID verification, the bot-generated responses and claim "investigation", and the cool cheek of its ever-increasing self-appointed permission in relation to YOUR MONEY.

[*Yibida*]

Cupie..... I too share your concern.... however, the Paypal section of the Ebay US Site has somewhat 'lit-up' since last evening. The most serious aspect of this change was that it was made without notice, and from what I read, retrospective. Talk about limiting the options of the users! The statement from the Paypal person quoted also rings alarm bells....."Paypal stated they are planning to target every ebay seller with this new policy". Now that - would include those users here!

And regarding alarmism..... if these things don't at the least get people curious enough to conduct their own research... well, need I say more.

My dear friend R paypal / ebay are now militarily minded... they learn't well from the rebellion campaign.. their biggest mistake was to forewarn of the impending changes... then of course it gave the rebels time to amass the troops for a concerted thrust from the rear... which ebay weren't expecting... any money grabbing campaign ebay / paypal wishes to implement now will be done by stealth...no time for anyone to build a battle plan and confusion will be their cloak... I'm surprised the most powerful country on earth is helpless against this foe?... have people lost the will to fight?... are the members there all sheepish?.... more questions than answers...

[*CountessA*]

I think this entire issue needs to be addressed, questioned, turned inside out, thought about and thoroughly examined. It's time that the RBA took another look at the situation, but we may require a certain degree of discretion in deciding how best to tackle the problem.

[*r3830*]

Countess - thankyou for your support. Isn't effective teamwork a truly wonderful thing! All said and done, there was absolutely nothing wrong with bringing this proposed change to the attention of the many users who partake in the services provided by Paypal. In fact, were it not for Liisa's efforts.....
I would suggest that Paypal would be just a touch... well perhaps somewhat more than a touch indignant that the cat is now well out of the bag - and our own people here have been forewarned of what could spell potential disaster for many.

One of the above comments stated that this change was about protecting Paypal from chargebacks. It looks more to me like an initiative that creates a system of seller self-funding for any refunds that occur through INR or SNAD claims. From Paypal's perspective - not a bad idea, as the protection guarantee can then become the responsibility of the seller - and not affect Paypal's bottom line - while Paypal will continue to advertise their great protection - as if it were funded by them! I read that the percentage is a staged one... high risk users may be asked to provide a level of security at a higher premium than 30%, stemming down on the lesser risks. Membership length and DSR ratings also have some effect in the calculations.

We again come back to the functions of Paypal - THEY ARE NOT A BANK - and yet, claim use of these monies for anywhere between 90 and 180 days - or longer. We also come back to the compulsory offering of Paypal by Australian sellers. Given the newly proposed with-holding arrangements, and how this would be interpreted by our own regulators here at home............. This thing requires an ongoing very, very close eye..... or ten!

[Liisa-Sx]

I firmly believe this indeed warrants some in depth perusal, calls need to be made and followed up, PayPal according to their own help desk confirmed it is coming, we will not know when, but it IS coming.

I initially started researching this new payPal dilemma stemming from Ebay asking me to do a verification confirmation which entailed initiating a call back or an email from Ebay to verify who I was, before I could List and items for sale on an established account that has been listing for a long time...

They knew already who I was, I AM verified, they had my bank account #, they had my credit card #, they had my 100% high DSR and feedback tally.

No Chargebacks, no disputes....nada.

Ok so I call Ebay, because I notice something...I am to initiate this auto recall via phone or Email.. But..BUT, how is it verification? I CAN (confirmed by Ebay) Give ANY phone number I like or ANY email address I like to be verified, it does NOT have to be the ones on file.. How is this verification I asked...I waited 5 minutes.. no reply, I ask again.... no reply.. then OH OH,  they hang up.

I become alarmed..if I can use this fake verification..which as I said is NO verification at all, then what else can they do to me.

I start to research, I stumble across the rolling funds  hold...I am aghast, I dig deeper, I start to become Extremely alarmed, I then stumble across the other policies I have shown you all in threads here...with every new tidbit I become more and more concerned.. then I get angry...

PayPal in combination with Ebay are operating illegal transactions and policies, as it was pointed out previously they are using confusion and covert actions to ward off legal issues, they hide their accountability behind closed doors effectively sidestepping it's members cries of fury, it is TIME to ensure we will not be hit harder than we already are with these unworkable and morally reprehesible policies.

How is it Now that PayPal can lay claim to having a "$20,000" buyer protection scheme" when In fact they do NOT, sellers do, they are funding it NOT PayPal, and yet.. PayPal still claim it is theirs.  False advertising? Where does PayPal tell sellers that the Protection fund WILL be supplied by the seller.. the answer is NOwhere... yet..unless you dig deep and spend many hours researching and then.. suddenly low and behold, there it is, hidden behind a confusion of policies buried in the back of a thread somewhere.

Why are they not forced to be upfront, why are they not forced to show clear policy changes that affect and HOLD thousands and thousands of PayPal account holders funds indefinately...

Have your say now:
http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/tag/ConsumersMakingAComplaint/

[*r3830*]

Still reading up from the US. Intention is to post useful info here



PayPal will continue doing whatever they want, just because nobody stands up to them.

Things will only get worse, just because they can do whatever they want.

If PayPal decides, that they will not give you any of your money, they will still get away with it.

Has any Merchant, that is being victimized by PayPal, tried to contact any of the Government agencies, that have been setup to protect Consumers, as well as Merchants, such as:

FTC
BBB
SEC, for those with Money Market Accounts.


The writing on the wall has never been clearer....
Reply

[Roo]

I have a feeling that the backlash for the current proposals will bite Paypal on the bum.

I wonder if buyers will rebel even more than the sellers on this one?

Buyers are going to start feeling sorry for sellers...and start using another payment method to save their sellers having to wait for their funds.

Of course...this will mean that there will be an increase in shonky sellers that prey on those buyers that feel this way.

Which means that even more buyers will walk away from Ebay....

It will have a domino effect....and no one wins in the end...

[*r3830*]

Agree Roo - and I hope that when the teeth are sunk in - they leave puncture marks!!


Re: Paypal's "Rolling Reserve" Is anyone dealing with this new unethical act?
Sep 1, 2009 4:57 PM

    * Report

They hit us as well. They want $150,000 minimum reserve.
We will stop taking paypal soon.

When they first started with the reserve in December, PayPal said they need evidence that we are managing our orders well.

As long as we have few charge backs over the next 90 days we will be good.

We never had too many chargebacks/disputes. We do hundreds of transactions and get 2-3 per month.

After a few months, we showed proof that we have no problems. They then said that we have a 20% refund rate - that we are returning 20% of the money.

That was never the case. We rarely give a refund. Occasionally you have to do it as customer service.

We had a problem with one item several years ago. So they picked that one month and ignored everything before or after. They didnt average or anything.

Basically, once they hit you and flag your account, they will find some excuse to never give you back your money.

They will claim industry problems, past problems you had or any of a million excuses.

If you close your paypal account, they put you on a master card black list and you may have difficulty getting a merchant account.

[*r3830*]

John has rewritten his earlier comments...... note the interest rate payable....

Re: Paypal's "Rolling Reserve" Is anyone dealing with this new unethical act?
Sep 2, 2009 5:05 PM

    * Report

I have been selling on eBay for nine years now, and also have websites in three countries for which I use PayPal's Website Payments Pro for my shopping cart. Nine years, an eBay feedback rating of 870, and no paypal problems to speak of (had two stolen credit card transactions in the past nine years that resulted in chargebacks, for which I am the one that ended up losing the money).

I received a phone call from a Stacey at PayPal today. She announced that I must give PayPal a reserve of $30,000 dollars (the equivalent of about two months of my gross sales volume), or else PayPal will be taking 15% off the top of each sale and applying it to a reserve account until the account reaches $30,000. Then they will keep this $30,000 as long as I accept paypal.

The thing is, my NET profit on each sale is only about 7%. And $30,000 represents more than a year's worth of profits from this business for me! So apparently they expect me to PAY to work this business for the next year or more. In comparison, Mafia tactics could be viewed as friendly...

It seems clear to me that the intention is to muscle as many small business merchants out of as much money as possible. They claim they'll pay me interest - at their abysmally low rate (currently 0.06% per year!!!!!). Gee, I wonder how much money they'll make investing the tens of thousands of dollars from each of the tens of thousands of merchants like me?!?! They'll make 5 to 15% while having to pay out... at this time not even a TENTH of a percentage point of interest.

I'll be turning to a different payment solution, as paypal's "offer" is mathematically unworkable for me, and besides, I don't trust them with $30,000 of my money.

Clearly this is an offer I WILL be able to refuse.

John Mohan
RadarDetectors1

[*r3830*]

Re: Paypal's "Rolling Reserve" Is anyone dealing with this new unethical act?                     PAGE 28 / 28 PAGES
Sep 5, 2009 8:52 PM

    * Report

WOW! This post has really grown! I wonder if ebay or paypal have been viewing everyone's posts on this discussion........

I have been given some advise by another power seller whom is also an attorney. This individual merely sells for fun or as a hobby here on ebay. This individual recommended I start a facebook page and implement a petition with his support. The petition would involve other ebay sellers whom have been subject to this rolling reserve. They could post on the wall they "object" to the rolling reserve.

He felt with enough signatures, we could take it to ebay and paypal and seek the removal of this rediculous act they have so kindly bestowed upon ebay's sellers. He also stated he would help support the matter.

My questions to everyone whom have been subject to ebay's rolling reserve are"

1.) Do you feel this is a matter to take further?
2.) Would you register on facebook to sign the petition with your user name of your seller id and state you object to the rolling reserve?
3.) Are we too small to fight this?

I appreciate the feedback regarding this post. Your responses will determine if this is something we can take to a higher level.

[*CountessA*]

I think they can forget the Facebook petition approach. Unless forced to by legislative powers, eBay/PayPal have not in the past backed down from acts which turned away sellers in droves (and buyers as well).

eBay/PayPal paid no attention to the vociferousness with which Australians objected to the PayPal-only push. It was only because the efforts of a few dedicated people who knew whom to contact, what legislation applied, which bodies could stop this, and how to create a massive swell of written protest TO THAT REGULATING BODY that PayPal-only was forced to a halt. PayPal on its own would never, never, never have withdrawn from that position. The ACCC's preliminary ruling demonstrated to eBay/PayPal that they had a nasty shock coming. It seems strange to think this, but it is evident that PayPal did not see that coming. They seem to have been of the opinion that the ACCC would not listen to the record number of submissions virtually unanimously condemning the request for exemption. They seem also not to have anticipated the well-written and powerful submissions that came from various influential parties - some of whom were contacted by members of the "Rebellion". It was in fact the unseen work of the Rebellion which organised what happened, and it was the incredible response of eBayers and concerned citizens which codified that organisation, and it was the superbly written and well-informed submissions from various interested parties both within Australia and outside Australia which gave the whole thing the final nail in the coffin. Bottom line: PayPal was trying to act against Australian legislation. We did not let it happen. We used our legislation to stop them.

The Americans need to think about this in terms of legislation and the power to enforce that legislation. They need to know their consumer laws, their acts, their regulating bodies; they need to contact the major banks and finance companies; they need to contact every politician who might have even a toenail's worth of clout; they need to do more than say, "Please sign". I strongly believe that.

[*smee*]

you don't vote for kings !

[tellomon]

or..Tyrants!

[*FluffyDuckee*]

I really don't know what to say here.  All I can say is what I am thinking after reading the latest Paypal/Ebay shananigans on this thread and others in this forum.

I am appalled and believe these changes will happen here in Australia, eventually and Liisa has already been told they will.  I believe the only way to have a hope of stopping this is to somehow adress it through the correct legal/appeal channels here in Australia. 

I for one have a few items I wish to still sell and after that will be closing my Paypal and linked bank account.  It is criminal and frightening that Paypal can access our accounts without our permission.

I also have a creditcard linked to the Paypal account.  What is the best way to deal with this?  Cancel the card and get a new number?  Put a stop on Paypal accessing the card?  I have heard that even if you cancel your credit card, a business with your details can still charge against it and you are liable.  Is this true?

[Liisa-Sx]

From an ex PayPal Manager.
This is LONG but READ it and understand your rights.


PayPal is the "merchant or record" when someone uses their
system to pay with either a bank transfer, check or credit / debt card.

Payments made internally from one PayPal account to another is a different story and the only area PayPal can truly attempt to control.


PayPal is the ones who have the MERCHANT ACCOUNT.
Not you.

It IS PayPal's ultimate responsibility to "verify" who the sender is, who is sending funds to PayPal and to transmit and process these transactions in a secure environment and accordance to industry standards.

PayPal's merchant agreement outlines policies that PayPal must follow in order to receive funds electronically and are given the tools and guidelines to help minimize PayPal's risk of chargebacks or fraudulent use of PayPal's merchant account by senders of funds.

------------

As far as PayPal providing a "money transfer service" to it's users.(The seller x's of the world).

It is PayPal's ultimate responsibility to verify who it's users are. (Who seller x is) Prior to transferring money to seller x or allowing seller x to offer PayPal's services.

Unfortunately for PayPal they choose to be lax in this registration policy area which puts PayPal at further risk.

Now who's fault is that?

It is not yours because you did not understand their convoluted UA .
It is not yours because you didn't follow their bogus SPP or BPP programs.

It is their fault and their fault alone for not tightening up its lax registration polices and compiling a comprehensive user agreement to begin with.

--------------

PayPal's user agreement is just that. An agreement a policy.
PayPals user agreement has NEVER stood up in a court of law as a binding contract.

Quite the contrary as PayPal's "user agreement" and policies keep being struck down by courts of law through out the lands.

Wonder why? BECAUSE IT IS NOT A BINDING CONTRACT.

PayPal IS the merchant of RECORD when a transaction goes well, as well as when it goes bad. PayPal and only PayPal are libel
for all transactions and activities conducted on their website.

The collections attempts on any user (seller x) by PayPal or it's agents use are erroneous attempts at best.
Many of the tactics they use are not even legal nor can be enforced in a court of law.

Now if PayPal can prove that their services were used with the intent to defraud PayPal. That is a different story

In the case of intentional fraud by seller x it would be a criminal case not just an attempt to collect some money from seller x.

Collection agencies that buy off these bad debts PayPal incur exist for one reason and one reason only. To attempt to bypass regular legal channels to collect a debt that they feel is owed to them by the end user "seller x".

If a PP user decides to not continue to use the PP service nor agrees with PayPal's convoluted polices or that seller x owes PayPal any money, there is nothing more that PP can do other than Freeze the users account with a negative balance and attempt to scare the user into thinking that somehow PP can go "after them" for the money.

It is simply not the case.

[*Ubbie Max*]

Evening all. The other day I completed a buy now for an archery item listed on the USA ebay site. It's buy now price & post cost (USPS) was excellent value, about half the Australian shop price.

Last night I got the following email from the seller (an archery equipment dealer with his own website)

"Hi ........,
 
I’m so sorry for the hassle and delay, but we’re actually out of the
Tru Ball Short-N-Sweet S2 releases and we won’t be getting any more for
the rest of the year.  I truly apologize about that!!  We can offer you a
refund unless there’s something else you’re interested in.   Please
let us know and again, so sorry about that!!!
 
Thanks again and take care,
Andi
Home of the .99 Shipping"

I suspect this is not true as the same item continues to be listed multiple times by the  seller  but, O/Seas shipping & handling is now more than 4 times higher.

I have chosen to get a refund (about A$88.00) & I suppose this will sit with Paypal until such time as I can transfer it to my banking account.

The interesting thing is, I have found the very same item on another archery website (not Ebay) much cheaper including post & handling. I will buy it from them using my card (it is a secure site & my card carries minimal amounts of money in it). 
 

[*r3830*]

Ubbrd.... just goes to show.... "it pays to shop around!"

[*CountessA*]

I think we're going to see a lot of sellers behaving as your seller did, Ubbrd. With this holding rule, low prices are going to be a joke; no business can sustain a low 7 to 8 % profit margin while simultaneously being asked to offer up a veritable Isaac on the altar of sacrifice to PayPal.

[*Ubbie Max*]

Yeah I reckon you might be right Countess.
I've been thinking about it. If my suspicions are correct all they had to do was contact me & explain they had underpriced the shipping costs. They could have then given me the choice of remitting the extra shipping cost (via Paypal) or opting for a refund. I respect & in fact expect honesty. I have never tolerated liars & lying.  

[*r3830*]

Just a note about the events of last night.......... An important note...

As mentioned on the Paypal Blood Stone thread prior to it being deleted, the purpose of posting the information on the RT boards was to bring the matter to the attention of other members - a forewarning if you like, of things to come. The message was immediately swamped by pro Paypal people who set out with the simple intention of ridiculing the information. Of course - as is generally the case - these same people have no interest in whether there is/was any credibility in the matters raised - and with very few exceptions, could not even follow the links that were raised by posters from either this - or the Ebay site.

The common theme expressed was that nobody had heard anything about this pending change...... and that was precisely the purpose of the message - to inform users of the need to undertake their own research in the matter - and to identify whether they would be placed in jeopardy as other people had been, their examples being highlighted. The narrow minded saw the message as nothing short of a simple "dissing" session on Paypal. It wasn't - it was about notifying people of a policy change, and a serious one at that. The link was removed shortly after an Ebay member was so kind as to post the Paypal link to the story. But, of course, that would have been coincidental. Everybody would have been made aware of the changes eventually - perhaps as our colleagues were in the US..... nearly a MONTH after they had been implemented! They weren't offered options - they were already paying the piper. And realistically - why wouldn't both Ebay and Paypal WANT our Aussie users to be aware of a new policy???

I since learn that another thread was created - I didn't see it - but I understand this to be fact..... where Yib was asked whether he had 'pulled' his own thread. Put simply..... NO, he did not! It was not in the interest of the message being delivered to do so. Individual posts identifying links to OZRT certainly were removed by mods - prior - to the thread being deleted, as comments continued to build. I also understand that profanities were directed at various members of this site. I truly do hope that those "people" responsible for that sort of reprehensible behaviour continue to sleep uncomfortably.

To date, 644 views of this file have taken place. Was the effort worth it? Well, as long as the message got out to the many good people who we've all come to know, both here and on the RT forums - yes, it most certainly was!

Yib - you got clobbered by the pink crowbar for your efforts.... Mate - Wear that one with pride!

Isn't freedom of speech a precious commodity!

[*Ubbie Max*]

Well said R numbers.

[*Yibida*]

Thankyou for the kind words r... the coward wielding the pink crowbar was under gunned, it's going to take more than that to silence us...

[*r3830*]

Yib....... I've found you some motivation. This should help BIG TIME!!! Looks like Tello on the drums!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MotNtq41NDw

[*Yibida*]

Here's the real deal Ubbrd......


http://mediaservices.myspace.com/services/media/embed.aspx/m=5554542,t=1,mt=video


http://mediaservices.myspace.com/services/media/embed.aspx/m=5552823,t=1,mt=video

[Liisa-Sx]

The mere fact that this thread has been read 664 times (as per this post) shows that there are other interested parties, keen to learn and be informed of their rights and any forthcoming policies that will not be made public until it is too late.

I do want to clarify something and make it crystal clear, I am NOT anti PayPal, I use PayPal as a seller because I have to, and as a buyer for conveniance, I AM however anti PayPal insofar as their dirty tactics, illegal business practices, covert policies, threatening attitude etc ad infinitum.

Why use it some may say.. Read the paragraph above.. I would also like to add, PayPal used to be free for those of you that remember, and I know they are a business, I get that, all I try to do is keep people informed of their rights, and PayPals upcoming policies that will effect everyone and in some sad cases cripple small account holders.

My Posts are NOT Paypal hate speech, they are for information purposes.

This statement alone should make some people sit up and take notice:

Paypal Adds New Fees Without Notice

- Last month or so Paypal quietly began charging new fees to its customers without actually notifying them of the change. “We didn’t want to make a huge formal communication out of this pricing change, because we weren’t really adding any fees, and we were hoping it would be a more useful experience for people,” explained PayPal PR manager Charlotte Hill.

No they were NOT adding fees but they DID creatively restructure pricing... same thing in my book, it seems to fall under the "Sometimes you don't need to fool everyone, you just need to fool enough people" Banner it seems.

Know your rights, it's your livelyhood and YOUR money.

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/tag/ConsumersMakingAComplaint/

[*r3830*]

Well put Liisa.....

I am also NOT anti-PAYPAL! I am also a buyer - not a seller - who likes the convenience of the service. But I am also a strong supporter of a consumer's right to know.

[tellomon]

PayPal Hold Gestapo Tactics

The OP:

PayPal claims to be protecting the buyer with it's hold policy when in fact it is to increase PayPal's float time. A buyer who has a problem has plenty of recourse.

Like some people I do more buying on Ebay than I do selling. All my feedback has been great. PayPal is holding about $40.00 for a recent sale of mine I assume because I haven't sold anything in close to a year.

PayPal is being paid by taking a percentage of my funds therefore I am their client not the buyer.

They don't protect people using PayPal from buying useless ripoff items elsewhere on the net. They want to play big brother for Ebay.

Reply 1:

I do not like it either, the wording versus the real meaning.
Why doesn't PayPal just state, here we have a policy change to make us more money, or, we have another policy change to make us even more money.

That would be fair and clear.
Now it's just lies.

http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Paypal/Paypal-Hold-Gestapo/510136566

More:

http://forums.ebay.com/db2/forum/Paypal/97

[*Yibida*]

[Ginar]

Gi all
First post... so be gentle... .  Gral sent me here.
I used to sell on ebay up until 2 years ago, around the time they were changing the feedback and started the PP shove.  As a company owner I could not allow another business to tell me how to run my company nor allow this other business (PP) to cost us more money than necessary, so we parted company with ebay to solve that problem.

However, for the last 5+ years we have been using PP to pay for all our imports from China, the PP account is linked to a company credit card.  Now I have to admit I am really worried about this rolling reserve garbage from a company point of view.  We do not use PP to accept any payments at all (we have our own merchnat facility), it is stricly used to transfer funds to China.  IF, they decide to bring in this reserve policy into Australia it will cause irrevocable damage to our companies cash flow because I think in our case it will not be a low reserve due to the amount we transfer weekly, fortnightly etc. 

I will make myself available to do whatever I can to assist or initiate any action to stop PP in bringing in this policy to Australia and tampering with my companies working capital.

[*Yibida*]

Hi Gina welcome to the site !....you'll like it here...WE INSIST !.....LOLOL seriously tho.... you will like it...

[*CountessA*]

Ginar, welcome - I think your perspective will be welcome to see how this holding rule will actually affect people and the way they use PayPal. Can people afford to trust PayPal in these circumstances if PayPal refuses to relinquish the full funds belonging to its members?

[tellomon]

Hi Gina welcome to the site !....you'll like it here...WE INSIST !.....LOLOL seriously tho.... you will like it...

The Yibster snipes AGAIN!