The Great Debate * NBN *

[Poddy]

The senate today ended debate on the NBN and voted to separate the arms of Telstra which was the only thing holding back the roll out. The bill still has to be passed in the lower House though and as parliament is on a break that will not happen until they resume.
In my opinion and the opinion of many others there was not enough debate and the bill was bulldozed through because the pollies wanted to go home for Christmas.

So let us debate it and see if they got it right, after all we are the taxpayers who will pay for it.

You have 4 votes please cast them

Let the Debate begin

[*r3830*]

Poddy  What was the uptake like in Tassie? Hearing all sorts of different things up here.

[*r3830*]

RBA Governor Glenn Stevens backs calls for NBN cost-benefit analysis

AUSTRALIA'S top banker has embarrassed the Gillard government by backing a cost-benefit analysis of the National Broadband Network.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/australian-it/rba-governor-glenn-stevens-backs-calls-for-nbn-cost-benefit-analysis/story-e6frgakx-1225961568913


From the twigs to the trunk, NBN wants it all

HOW many points of interconnect should there be on the Gillard government's National Broadband Network? It is not exactly a barbecue-stopper of a question. Few Australians would even know what a point of interconnect was.

But NBN Co's proposal that there should be only 14 points of interconnect in only five cities is seriously bad news for competition - and likely future price levels - in broadband.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/from-the-twigs-to-the-trunk-nbn-wants-it-all/story-e6frg6zo-1225960444621
 

[*wheels*]

Sorry, I can't vote, because I know very little about the NBN except that it will use fibre optic cabling which has to be an improvement. What I do know is I want fast, reliable internet at an affordable cost. Australia seems to be so far behind other countries when it comes to internet costs and reliability. I suppose our wide open land does make it more expensive when the costs of supplying telecommunications to remote areas has to be taken into account.

[Poddy]

Numbers I have not yet gone to an NBN location as yet to make any quantative measurements but I will, and also find ourt what the uptake was.

[Poddy]

Wheelie keep your eye on this thread and you will pick up some knowledge on the subject.

[*r3830*]

This one may be of interest poddy.....

NBN take-up rate less than 11%

As at October 22


http://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/article/2010/10/22/249665_latest-news.html

[golden]

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/early-customers-test-nbns-capacity-limits/story-e6frg6nf-1225961720917

[moonlight]

mmmmmmmmmmm


http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/8406817/nbn-benefits-grossly-overstated-study/

 

[*FluffyDuckee*]

I've heard that much of the nbn cable has already been laid in some areas of Australia;  ie up the west of NSW along thw SA border.  Is this true or have I got my wirs crossed here?

[*smee*]

a huge amount of fibre optic cable was rolled out inthe early part of this century and then in dribs and drabs since then and is owned by Telstra ... Big Kev & Joolya wanted to duplicate this by using a seperate entity other than Telstra , but as I understand it that stupidity has been nipped in the bud and the existing cable will now be used

here is an article from back in april about it http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/broadband-big-waste-risk/story-e6frf7l6-1225854983096

[*r3830*]

Yep - exactly as smee says. Fibre Optics is not a new technology. Interestingly - there's talk of this cable requiring replacement after ten years.

[HellWest'nCrooked]

I've heard that much of the nbn cable has already been laid in some areas of Australia;  ie up the west of NSW along thw SA border.  Is this true or have I got my wirs crossed here?

Its all true Fluffy and it was to service Melbourne!!!
It goes right past my parents door and they can't hook onto it.
There is miles of it.  Been around for a lot of years now.

[acer2u]

I've never understood why they wanted to do it when the ability was already there with Telstra having the fibre optic cabling in already - or was it in large part due to the fact that the Government wouldn't have the level of control they wished over the NBN if it was to be 100% in Telstra's hands and effectively now it is a dual project between the two.   

Piggybacking on that existing cabling was what I was initially informed would occur which seemed ridiculous with the exisiting cabling in place with the capability to supply high speed broadband, but then I may have been misinformed there.

One thing that puzzles me is the fact that Telstra can flick a switch right now and many people would automatically have High speed broadband as they facilitate this for Emergency Services throughout this country already, why then  don't they for us mere plebs.

I have the feeling we've been duped.

[bnwt]

The NBN, is it worth the cost?


http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/29/3079527.htm?section=business

[*r3830*]

A little bit of history......

Telstra, or what was Telecom Australia, during the early eighties, developed what was then a most futuristic plan. It was known as FTTN. (Fibre to the Node) A 'node' by the way was a futuristic and seriously flash name for a pillar.... that Telstra post on the corner of most streets where main cables are jointed (joined) for household connection. The main points were that Optical Fibre was much smaller than a standard copper main cable, able to carry much higher traffic.... and it negated the distance between the local exchange and the pillar. (the distance became transparent in other words) And the benefit to users.... SPEED! Broadband really wasn't a happening thing at that time. Most were only able to access dial-up net. (WOW - a 40Hour plan!...And look..... 5.2K/bps! LOL) 2MB Links were premium services that were available at a cost to business.
Due to the changes in Telstra that were occurring at the time... future privatisation and a government that wanted a low company value to achieve a sale - this work really didn't occur in any volume. The links between exchanges however were seriously complimented with fibre upgrades. So, when it's mentioned that FO has been around for some time.... what we're seeing now is really nothing more than what Telstra commenced over thirty years ago.
Fibre to the home (FTTH) was considered at that time as well - but not deemed to be a viable option.

[*r3830*]

Now.... Yav just gotta laugh......

CSIRO comes up with a way to connect broadband through the humble TV aerial

The NBN promises speeds of at least 100 megabits per second, but the new project team reckon they can match that and connect remote Australia through the spectrum once used for their TV sets.

Most people have access to a television signal and more remote communities have relatively little interference — perfect conditions for low-frequency internet transmission on the VHF/UHF bands.


http://www.news.com.au/technology/remote-areas-could-get-broadband-through-tv-aerial/story-e6frfro0-1225966269312#ixzz17On95MDY


 

[HellWest'nCrooked]

Looks like they have been working on this one for a while loco, they are at the testing stage now!

[*r3830*]

NBN entrenching rural disconnect

The NBN Co, the federal government business set up to design, build and operate the nation's biggest single infrastructure project, yesterday said the NBN cable would not be hooked up to towns with fewer than 1000 premises, due to the high cost of connection.

"It does come down to cost," a spokeswoman said.

And that..... would include one hell of a lot of little towns! Again - the country cops it in the neck!


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/nbn-entrenching-rural-disconnect/story-fn59niix-1225967922112

[*smee*]

The NBN Co, the federal government business set up to design, build and operate the nation's biggest single infrastructure project, yesterday said the NBN cable would not be hooked up to towns with fewer than 1000 premises, due to the high cost of connection

these are the very towns who's occupants voted for labor because of the promise of broadand which they previously hadnt been able to get due to the cost ....so effectively those votes were wooed on false pretences !!!!

[golden]

Where is HOTSHOTT now???   I hope the Labor voters roll in their stink!  They deserve everything coming their way.  Meanwhile the people who held the majority vote have to live with their attitude and delusional views

Is there one thing they have achieved (or will achieve) in their term of office?

Wasn't Labor one for all and all for Arbib. 

Wheres the rebel gone?  :cupie: and Elantra? 

[*r3830*]

Tied to cable yet future is wireless

President Obama chose to support wireless broadband over fibre access because it has more to offer. Bearing in mind that the backbone of wireless networks is typically a fibre core, it's wireless broadband, not fixed broadband, that is growing with advances in wireless network capability, wireless devices and applications. Obama's firefighter is downloading the design of a burning building on to a handheld device, not knocking on a neighbour's door to plug a laptop into the local fibre network. In fact, they would probably download it in the fire truck on the way to the building.

Ericsson, another network supplier, has recently demonstrated peak mobile download speeds of 168 megabits per second on existing network technology, although it would require new consumer handsets. That's four to eight times the peak download speed offered by Telstra's NextG network at present. It's likely that peak mobile speeds will be greater than the 100Mbps offering over NBN Co before it has even met 10 per cent of its rollout target.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/tied-to-cable-yet-future-is-wireless/story-e6frg6zo-1226001743131

[bnwt]

NBN costs taxpayers 24 times South Korea at one tenth the speed


http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/nbn-costs-taxpayers-24-times-south-korea-at-one-tenth-the-speed-report-20110209-1amm2.html

[*Brum6y*]

Just one small point about the economics:

Conroy's spokeswoman also noted that Australia’s land mass was "over 7.6 million square kilometres compared with South Korea’s which is just over 100,000 square kilometres" and that Australia had a population density of "2.7 people per sq km compared with 487 people per sq km for South Korea".

It just a little bit relevant - to my thinking anyway.

HOWEVER, rolling out the optic fibre all over the country is one thing - but connecting to it is not like connecting to the water main, where you just tap into it.  If you run an optic fibre trunk for 100Km and it goes past 1,000 homes, then those 1,000 homes won't be able to connect to it directly without significant cost and logistical issues.

Without access points that people can actually use, it's like running a bullet train track past somebody's home and claiming they have a rail service outside their front door .... when the nearest station is 100Km away.



Have they set out the connection strategy, especially for remote areas?

[callostemma]

Aren't all votes wooed on false pretenses :beammeupscotty:

[*r3830*]

Brum, the only thing I've read is that towns with populations less that 1000 will not be connected - irrespective whether the fibre is running through the main street in town or not.

[da_ewok]

My two cents worth.

I'll tell you my answers and WHY I have selected each and every one of them

1. NBN will NOT deliver what was promised  - nothing the Australian Government, Lib/Lab has ever been what's it's promised EVER

2. NBN is NOT worth spending $35,700,000,000   - of course it's not - over priced, under uterlised staff. All government contracts with government prices (oh and Townsville & Surrounds has to be COMPLETELY RE-WIRED) - I bet at our cost

3. I will connect to the NBN regardless of cost  - You would be crazy NOT to connect the NBN when offered the chance, It's rumoured the cost could be $1500 later to connect + all the other monthly charges (PS It will be years before we get NBN, we are rural and you know what the government think of us)
4. I belive that the NBN will be cost/benefit ineffective  - Refer #2

AND........... The killer for me (literally) Once people have the speed of the NBN, they will drop standard voice call services (like landlines) and use Skype - but Skype is only a fair-weather friend, the minute the 240v walks out the door, so does Skype and once that occurs a household could very well be out of contact in case of emergency - see my problem?

The NBN will KILL people - MARK MY WORDS

The Victorian Government is already softening people up to expected power failures during summer, so what chance has the NBN got in an emergency?
 
Total Voters: 18

[*Brum6y*]

With most of what you say Wokkie, I have no argument - but the telephony question is one that need not be as black as you portray it - though there are some dark issues.....

The old-fashioned copper pair telephone system has always operated with battery backup - so it would always be available in times of blackouts. I would be making it very clear that such independence will be an essential requirement (and if standard landline services are phased out, then such a provision for a VoIP telephone handset should be implemented).


HOWEVER.....

Having said that, would you believe that this is an issue RIGHT NOW with Optus customers who get a cable broadband and home phone bundle. (Seems stupid, but it is real.)

The new cable modems have a single coaxial cable connection with internal circuitry to deliver internet and telephone connections out of the one box.  If you get a modem with an internal battery, then when mains power fails, the telephone circuit ONLY will be powered from the battery. If you get a modem without a battery .... then no power = no phone, unless you organise your own backup battery (but they don't make a point of telling you).

.. and they offer this for people in the heart of Sydney! (amongst other places).  I have absolutely NO DOUBT that there are Optus customers out there who will lose their landline phone if the power goes AND THEY DON'T KNOW ABOUT IT.  I think, perhaps, that this is less of a concern because of the high probability of someone having a mobile in the case of an emergency - but it's a dangerous assumption in my book.

[bnwt]

Conroy slams anti-NBN report as 'ideological dogma'


http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/conroy-slams-antinbn-report-as-ideological-dogma-20110210-1anx5.html#poll

[*Brum6y*]

How to discredit opposition to any cause.

1. Publish a criticism of the cause which cites information that is superficially 'dramatic' but which is easily seen to be idiotic.

That's it.



For those who create this tripe in the hope of bringing a spotlight on the proponents of a project like the NBN, all they succeed in doing is bringing ridicule upon the opponents.

Conroy would have been enjoying every second of dumping on this report.

[bnwt]

Backlash looms over NBN rollout


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/in-depth/backlash-looms-over-nbn-rollout/story-e6frgaif-1226005390341

[*smee*]

Backlash looms over NBN rollout


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/in-depth/backlash-looms-over-nbn-rollout/story-e6frgaif-1226005390341

Some of the strongest opposition was reported by councils in northeast NSW, in and around the electorates of independent federal MPs Tony Windsor and Rob Oakeshott, who have argued vigorously in favour of the NBN.      now why isnt that surprising

[bnwt]

Wireless woes for NBN Co



http://www.smh.com.au/business/wireless-woes-for-nbn-co-20110214-1atpy.html

[bnwt]

Telstra super-fast 4G wireless sparks debate over NBN


http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/telstra-superfast-4g-wireless-sparks-debate-over-nbn-20110215-1au0i.html

[Elantra]

After watching Four Corners last night I am more confused then before.
So many people seem to have their own agendas that seem to get in the way of logic.
All the diferent plans & ideas that keep coming up just muddy the water.
But maybe thats the real plan, my "experts" up against your "experts"

[Poddy]

TRalla!!! It is quite simple really. No one wants to be tethered to a physical 'line'. Just look at remote controls, cordless appliances, cordless phones, mobile phones and anything that can be unattached IS unattached.

The $43,000,000,000 NBN Rip-off White Elephant was a dead duck right from the outset. If was a vote grabber from young uninformed voters who wanted to download movies and music faster. It was also a payback to the unions and business who fund the Labor Party's reelection fund and a con for the stupid rural independents.
The promice of 100Mbps is unattainable and has not been achieved ANYWHERE in the world, even by countries much smaller than Australia with vastly superior technological level that we have here.

It was a con from the start. JOOLYA!! and the 40 Thieves will milk it for all they are worth and the when it is dry, it will be dumped incomplete, but only after billions have been skimmed off.

[Elantra]

Well that's not quiet right because there are a lot of people (not just Labor people) saying that the NBN is the way of the future.
Wireless is good for Ipads & Mobile phones, but the more people that are on it at any given time slow it down considerably, plus there are more people using that every day. Soon something will have to be done to upgrade that system.
Plus, uploading can often been an issue.

Being in the printing industry we often have to send.  80 page 4 colour magazine, hi res  PDF files to other printers (in China or India, because it is so much cheaper to print there, but at the expense of hundreds of printing jobs in Australia.(But that's not my decision))  & to clients for approval. Now that takes forever to upload & then download.
With this is what I believe we have .   ADSL2+ Two copper wires that are entwined to create one super-quick ADSL2+ connection. Is that correct? Speeds run up to 30Mbps (30,000kbps).
But if we could get Fibre optic running at speeds of anywhere up to 100Mbps (100,000kbps) or 1Gbps (1 million kbps!)
Even if we could get 75Mbps to 85Mbps that would save us hours of upload & download times per week.

Maybe we could even compete with China or India to keep printing jobs in Australia.
Do we all know, that all of the Readers Digest Forms & their monthly magazine are all printed in China??
That's off the track I know, but just asking.

[*r3830*]

One consideration elantra.... The speed that a data package is sent is only as good as the speed it can be received. ie: if you have a speed of 100Mbps and the other end only has 20Mbps your overall transmission speed will be somewhere around 20Mbps. Makes no difference if you can send at 100Gbps.

4G has a capability of 100Mbps too, with portability and no line rental, and no burial of cable required. The US sees it as a far better, cheaper option.

[*Brum6y*]

A slight qualification on r3830's statement  -  the actual speed of transmission will be limited by the transmission rate of the slowest segment of any path between server and client.  Usually it is either the server or the client, but not necessarily.


The other issue is, how honestly will this high bandwidth capability be made available?

I'm using an Optus cable setup with the new Docsis 3 modem on the 'Premium Speed Pack' and I'm only getting around the 18 Mbps mark.  This would be considered top notch on the standard cable setup using Docsis 2 equipment .... but this service and equipment is supposed to give around 5 times the speed you were getting before.  I think I got that for the first day.  It went to the 30's for a while - and now its this....

Upload speeds were supposed to run near the 2 Mbps mark - but I've never seen anything like that. In fact, from my observations, it has not changed.  It's still struggling to hit 0.5 Mbps - exactly as it was before the 'Premium Speed Pack'.


Whoever runs the system will control speeds - on the exact same basis as politics: If people perceive things as good, then they ARE good.  If not, then we will try and placate them with bull'dust' - but if that doesn't work, then we might just have to live up to what is expected (... and then slowly pull it back and hope they don't notice.)


As for the concept of a high speed internet service across the country - I think it is mandatory for the future ... but a government run exercise WILL turn into a financial disaster.

ALREADY they have had to rein in on the tendering process because of price gouging tenders.  The government is viewed as an imbecilic 'cash cow' - and private enterprise knows this.


Oh, IMHO, 'fibre to the home' has some huge issues with practicality of implementation.

[*Brum6y*]

In response to radio ads sounding the plaudits of the NBN rollout, I entered a postcode in the indicated box .... and I just stopped and stared at what was presented.

I knew it was an adventurous project .... but have they aimed too high?

Here's a piece of the screen shot:



TEXAS?!!

You'd think such a (supposedly) high-tech crowd could at least get a geographically relevant postcode list.....

[Liisa-Sx]

The NBN is a farce, a joke... it's a waste of taxpayers money and by the time they have completed the rollout it will be obsolete...just like Conroy and Gillard.

And one thing to remember....the NBN IS and will be Government controlled.......anyone hearing any Conjob Conroy clean feed bells ringing?

I'll lay money on the eventuality you'll need to agree to the mandatory internet filter.

[HellWest'nCrooked]

It makes one wonder how these people got their jobs in the first place........they all need keelhauling.

Farce, joke, waste...................all correct Liisa  !

[da_ewok]

I have it from a good source - that I won;t even get the NBN - most likely a satellite link - Which defeats the purpose of EVERYTHING.

Might as well stay with the crappy ADSL (NOT +2) that I have

Oh and even then - satellite link won't be until AT LEAST 2020............................

40km from Melbourne CBD

[HellWest'nCrooked]

I rest my case your honour

If its not going to make it 40ks from the CBD  what chance has most of Australia got?
Oh   thats right, everyone lives in the CBD's of each capital city.....!

[*Brum6y*]

I just noticed... there was an entry there for South Africa, too.


Kinda makes you feel warm and fuzzy - just like someone was peeing in your pocket.

[Elantra]

This should please most people.
The Gov to scrap the internet filter plan.


http://www.optuszoo.com.au/news/top/news-com-au/labor-scraps-internet-filter-plan/835839