Author Topic: Need some help with a listing that was removed for having a blank triangle!  (Read 16167 times)

White Witch

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Hi all! :blownose:

A couple of months ago ebay removed one of the handbags I had listed as a counterfit item.

Being a power seller, I was able to call ebay and ask them why my item was removed as it had a plain triangle, but no name on it.

I thought they must have done a mistake (not the first time they had removed my listings by mistake). The lady I spoke to also thought it must be a mistake, but would find out and call me back with the answer. She called back and told me the triangle, even without a name on it is patented by Prada. Just like the 2 C's are patented by Chanel.

I would like to know if anyone knows if this is true, and/ or how could I find out they're not telling me stories to cover up their mistake?

I'm over the listing being removed, but my seller dashboard is yellow instead of green, and it will stay yellow for a year. Which means my reputation will be stained for a whole year because of this. I will take the punishment if ebay are telling the truth, but would like to fight it if they're telling fibs, and get my green dashboard back.

Thanks in advance!  :evil:

*Yibida*

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Snipe !!

*smee*

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Witchy Poo , did you mention the name Prada in the listing title anywhere ? or do you recall or have a copy of the listing title ?

Liisa-Sx

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Hi there again!

I am sure we will get to the bottom of this :)

After extensively searching the net i have found NO evidence period that the "blank" triangle is Patented by Prada, they do have a triangle logo but it has text imbossed inside it.
Like these below:
 

On sunglasses:


The closest thing to a "blank triangle" that they have is a keychain that still clearly displays the Prada name :


I do not see how Ebay can decide that "a" simple blank triangle is a prada Logo, when nothing else eluded to it being Prada, what sort of item was the triangle on in your listing?



They said there would be cake....and there WAS!

White Witch

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Smee!!! How do you know my name is witchy poo? Is that Eggy??? Please say yes!  :banana:

I found the picture and I'll post it now! Just got exited to hear my witchy poo name that only a small handfull know about!

shyer

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Hi all! :blownose:....and get my green dashboard back.

I have given up talking or emailing ebay WASTE OF TIME.

IMHO all sellers need a few selling ids for when ebay will do something stupid or you get a few rude stupid buyers also inevitable. All seling IDs needs a a holiday up to a year at times. Just buy a whole lot of 50 to  150 cent junk. within a fortnight you can have a plus 100 feedback rating. Then sell that junk and get a few seller ratings.
In 2 months you can then start selling, start small items and no more than 10 listings and slowly raise quality / price and a listing extra each week. Within a couple of months a new power seller. When that id gets a problem, you should have already started again, change again. Within a year or less depending on ebays stupid "JUSTICE SYSTEM" back to original ID.

White Witch

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This is it! Ebay told me that even if it was a plain triangle, buyers might think it's Prada. I thought it was a bit strange but I believed them!


[img width= height=]http://pantera13art.eaph2.com/share/PradaDC/DSC01189triangleJPG.jpg[/img]

White Witch

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I know what you mean shyer......... not very fair at all! Thats why I'd like to get to the bottom of this if I can!

This was the title: nothing that would get me in trouble, not even the words: designer inspired.

Liisa-Sx

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I know what you mean shyer......... not very fair at all! Thats why I'd like to get to the bottom of this if I can!

This was the title: nothing that would get me in trouble, not even the words: designer inspired.

I think you left out the title lol

Regarding that bag, why would anyone assume it is Prada, I have seen a million bags/ wallets etc on eBay that have a triangle on it just like that, are they insane lol

BTW How long ago was the listing pulled?

I am also curious as to whether a phone call to Ebay, escalated to a supervisor might be advantageous, if you only spoke to a regular level worker they are mostly clueless.

I am going to email Prada themselves and pose the question regarding a "blank triangle", lets see what they have to say LOL
They said there would be cake....and there WAS!

*Brum6y*

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First a declaration:
I'm no expert in the field, but my personal research has given me a feel for some things that I am conscious about.  What follows is only my observation and opinion...


Trademarks are a touchy area.  

From my understanding, Prada might have difficulty attempting to trademark a blank triangle, since there would not necessarily be anything 'distinguishing' about it - but they ARE afforded protection from variations which COULD cause confusion in the eye of the public.

I've looked throught the Australian Industrial Property Organisation (AIPO) database on Prada trademarks and triangular trademarks for Class 18 (the one that hand bags falls under) and found only the one - as shown below.  I've also cut out the label on your bag and enhanced it a bit to show some 'features' (also below).

In comparing the Prada tag and your 'blank' tag, I note the following:
1. Both are in the shape of equilateral right-angled triangles
2. Both are oriented with the right-angle pointing down
3. Both have rounded corners
4. Both have the interior of the corners filled in

Also, in comparing their placement on the product itself: (see picture of Prada bag also below...)
5. Both are the same (or nearly the same) size
6. Both are placed in the same position

In my assessment, even though the word 'Prada' does not appear, there are enough similarities for me to agree that there is a real possibility for confusion, and that is the measure by which trademark infringement is measured - not geometric pedanticism - so the decision would seem reasonable.

In my opinion, my points 3 and 4 indicate that those features were, in fact, quite deliberate attempts to pick up on the visual 'impression' of the Prada trademark - something which is tried on a regular basis.  I remember - I think it was Target where I saw it - an everyday brand of clothing caleed CUGGI - any doubts it was trying to ride on the GUCCI name...?

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White Witch

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Woops! I had copied the title but forgot to paste it!
Here is the whole email I received in February, so my seller dashboard is going to be yellow until February 2011!  >:(:

   
Hello ******

Thank you for your recent listing on eBay. Unfortunately, we removed the following item(s):

140381126654 - Black White Wave Striped Fx Leather Satchel Handbag NEW




The following information may help explain the reason your listing(s) was removed:

Trademark infringement is unlawful and violates eBay's policies. A trademark is a unique sign (such as a name, word, phrase, logo, or symbol) that a company uses to identify its products and/or services.

Using another company's trademark in a way that may confuse buyers about the source of goods or services, or confuses buyers into believing that the seller is affiliated with, sponsored by or endorsed by the trademark owner is both illegal and against eBay's policies. Examples include counterfeits, unauthorised replica items and items that bear the brand or logo of a company without that company's permission.

Guideline: If the product you are listing bears the brand or logo of a company, but it wasn't made or authorised by that company, don't sell it on eBay. It's against the law to sell unauthorised replicas of brand name products. Accordingly, listings for unauthorised replicas are not permitted on eBay.

For more information copy the following links into new browser windows:

http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/policies/replica-counterfeit.html

http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/policies/trademark.html

You may need to take a tutorial. The next time you sell, you may be asked to take the tutorial, if it's required. Once you've completed the tutorial successfully, please review your account status for any other possible concerns. If there are no other issues, you should be able to sell again.







Your eBay fees for this item have been credited to your account and all bidders have been notified.



IMPORTANT: Repeated violations of this or other eBay policies may result in the suspension of your account.

If you have any questions, you can take the following steps:


- Read the ended listings FAQ at: http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/confidence/vero-removed-listing.html
- Ask eBay a question using the link found on the page above

Thank you for your attention in this important matter.

Regards,

eBay Trust & Safety



White Witch

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May be you're right Brum6y. It says in the email ebay sent me a symbol (as in the triangle) can be a trademark.

Lisa, if you don't mind, and if you have the time, it would be great if you could email Prada and ask them and see what they say.

*Brum6y*

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Trademarks, Patents, Designs and even flower varieties can be registered for protection.  It's a world of its own.

Trademarks can be a symbol, words, or a combination of both.  They can also venture out into smells (perfumes) and sounds (eg Harley-Davidson), but they are areas I haven't gone into at all.

The rules are something that I've only gone into enough to get a 'feel' - but the basics are simple enough...

A trademark is used so that customers can (quickly) identify a business (like the Qantas flying kangaroo) and/or a product (like Prada).  This means consumers can quickly associate the standard expected of a product or service, values of the business, community involvement, etc. - all the things that a business is known for through advertising, longevity, word-of-mouth, service and so on.

Where that association is positive - the trademark is (to cut to the chase) worth real money.  Any confusion with a product NOT from the holder of the trademark gives the impostor an unearned benefit and when the impostor is of lower quality, it DEVALUES the trademark - which means the hard work the holder of the trademark has put into giving it value is lessened, devaluing ALL their products and/or services.  So you can see why trademarks are defended.

The key to understanding infringements is whether there might be confusion in the mind of the public - and if the shape of a tag gives someone a warm and fuzzy feeling because it is (even unconsciously) associated with a famous brand, then I would expect hassles.

*Brum6y*

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.... and when the impostor is of lower quality, it DEVALUES the trademark - which means the hard work the holder of the trademark has put into giving it value is lessened, devaluing ALL their products and/or services.  So you can see why trademarks are defended.


An interesting twist on trademarks and value.....  I have heard that a seller who is on eBay and also runs their own website has negotiated to sell a new range of products - but the supplier has made one particular stipulation... that they NOT be sold on eBay - since they don't want their name devalued.

*Yibida*

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May be you're right Brum6y. It says in the email ebay sent me a symbol (as in the triangle) can be a trademark.

Lisa, if you don't mind, and if you have the time, it would be great if you could email Prada and ask them and see what they say.

So witchy... if they insist you can't sell these on Ebash and all else fails, go to a hobby shop or cheap jewelery store and buy something to glue onto the triangle.... there are lots of little tags and nic nacs at these places... at least you can still sell the bags then and not get stuck with stock....

*Brum6y*

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So witchy... if they insist you can't sell these on Ebash and all else fails, go to a hobby shop or cheap jewelery store and buy something to glue onto the triangle.... there are lots of little tags and nic nacs at these places... at least you can still sell the bags then and not get stuck with stock....

As I understand it, if it's something that takes away any possibility of confusion, then that would be fine.

White Witch

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Yes, I took away any confussion alright!  :crazy:

This is the the listing, noone will ever know there was a stuupit triangle that got me in trouble, while other sellers on ebay can list items that say: Versace Inspired wallet, and Jimmy Choo inspired wallet in the title, but their listings don't get removed...  :nonono:

[img width= height=]http://pantera13art.eaph2.com/share/41109JacobsGabana/DSC01189fixedJPG.jpg[/img]


Not all brands symbols are a trademark. Prada might have the triangle patented, Chanel have the 2 C's, Louis Vuitton also might have the initials LV patented, as do D&G for Dolce and Gabbana. But Guess never patented the G, that's why it's ok to list G bags while is not allowed to list LV, D&G or CC items. And now.... no triangles!  :scold:

*Yibida*

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May be you're right Brum6y. It says in the email ebay sent me a symbol (as in the triangle) can be a trademark.

Lisa, if you don't mind, and if you have the time, it would be great if you could email Prada and ask them and see what they say.

So witchy... if they insist you can't sell these on Ebash and all else fails, go to a hobby shop or cheap jewelery store and buy something to glue onto the triangle.... there are lots of little tags and nic nacs at these places... at least you can still sell the bags then and not get stuck with stock....


Or Just turn the bag around and take the listing picture on the side with no Triangle emblem ???

Liisa-Sx

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May be you're right Brum6y. It says in the email ebay sent me a symbol (as in the triangle) can be a trademark.

Lisa, if you don't mind, and if you have the time, it would be great if you could email Prada and ask them and see what they say.

So witchy... if they insist you can't sell these on Ebash and all else fails, go to a hobby shop or cheap jewelery store and buy something to glue onto the triangle.... there are lots of little tags and nic nacs at these places... at least you can still sell the bags then and not get stuck with stock....


Or Just turn the bag around and take the listing picture on the side with no Triangle emblem ???



I was thinking that too, just turn the bag around so the triangle doesnt show, I have emailed Prada in New York with a picture and a description outlining what has occurred for their take on it, we will see what they say just out of interest.
They said there would be cake....and there WAS!

Roo

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Dang it!   That bag would be perfect for a trip to the footy! :yess:

Are they black and white stripes?


White Witch

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Yes roo! Black and white wavy stripes.

mandurahmum

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No one can copyright a blank triangle. 

golden

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First a declaration:
I'm no expert in the field, but my personal research has given me a feel for some things that I am conscious about.  What follows is only my observation and opinion...


In my assessment, even though the word 'Prada' does not appear, there are enough similarities for me to agree that there is a real possibility for confusion, and that is the measure by which trademark infringement is measured - not geometric pedanticism - so the decision would seem reasonable.


Thank you Brumby for putting so much effort and thought into your answer..  We are very lucky to have your expertise, time and effort put into our questions.. thank you..  (also for the spelling of palette!?)

Roo

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OK....I just had a look to see if Prada is a Vero member on Ebay.

Not sure if they are....but they don't seem to have a ME page to refer to...

http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/vero-aboutme.html

You would think a large company like that would at least have a ME page on display to give contact links and advice.

That is what makes me think that maybe....the item was reported by someone on the boards that you may have a few differences with...or a competitor?

When you write to them Liisa...ask them why they don't have a ME page..lol

White Witch

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Hi Roo! I don't post with my seller ID for that reason. I think I have competitors keeping as close an eye on me as I keep one on them!  :mug:

Thank you for all your replies. I appreciate it!  ;D

gr8-expectations

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golden i am still looking for the word "palette" in brumby's post ..... hev been all day ...lol

golden

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ooohhhh another red herring

*Brum6y*

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No one can copyright a blank triangle. 

I would certainly think that would be the case - but that is not the issue.  Protection of afforded to a trademark is on the basis of the possibility of confusion.  In this case, the 'offending' tag is not a simple triangle.  It has very well defined characteristics and the shape and features of are so similar to the registered Prada trademark, that at it could cause this confusion - hence the problem. (I have detailed my thoughts on this above).

Any change to the bag which removes this possibility of confusion should eliminate any problems in offering it up for sale.

Turning it around so you show the side without the tag would , in my opinion, be sufficient for sale on eBay - since there will be nothing in the listing to even hint in the direction of Prada.  The buyer might get a warm fuzzy feeling when they see it - even if you explicitly tell them its not Prada ... because their friends might think it was ....

Prada would probably find this still unacceptible, since a product that might be thought of as theirs - isn't (that confusion thing again).  And, if it is seen to be a lesser quality, it will still damage their reputation.  The risk would be lessened, since you would not be spreading it all over the world, but it is still a risk.

*Brum6y*

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One quick clarification on some terminology. (I'm staying away from things like plant varieties and sticking to the mainstream ones...)

Copyright: Protection given to the author or creator of an original work. This includes literary works, music, photographs, movies, computer software and a host of other things.  It is my understanding that Copyright rights can be secured by simply stating that they are claimed. Use of the copyright symbol © being one common and widely recognised indicator.

Patent: Protection for an apparatus, based on how it works.  That is, involving the engineering, chemistry, materials or other technical aspects of some invention that does something in a new way.

Registered Design: (Called a Design Patent in the USA) Protection for a design - it is simply based on how something looks.  (As with a patent, the way something looks must be new, too.)  For example, a Coca Cola bottle could not be protected under a patent, because it doesn't DO anything new, but the shape of it can be protected by registering the design.  The scale, usage or materials are irrelevant - so, with the design protected, anyone who makes a keychain attachment or a 60 storey building in the shape of a protected design will need permission to do so.

Patents and Registered Designs must be registered with the official authority before protection is in force. At that time, the 'registered' symbol: ® can be used to indicate this has occurred - and it can only be used once the design or patent has been registered.

Trademarks: As discussed above - Words or letters or a symbol or a combination of these to identify a business and/or a product. The rules for protection of trademarks are a bit more involved than for Patents and Designs.....

The simplest and certainly the safe way is to register it, as with Patents and Designs. That way, you have an official reference point - and that can be extremely valuable.

But you don't have to....

By simply using a name or symbol in the normal course of business, so that customers come to associate that name or symbol with a particular business and/or a particular product then that name and/or symbol is, in fact, a trademark - through its usage.  Such a trademark IS defendable in court if challenged or infringed upon by a competitor - but it requires the person claiming prior use to prove their case.  Without a trademark being registered, that means finding any and all evidence to support this - the old family photo album with a dated picture of 'Grandad's old shop' could be just one of the things that would help.  It's going to be hard work.

The next thing someone can do is put the letters ™ next to their trademark.  You do not need to register anything to use this - just put it up anytime you want to.  This is simply telling everybody "This is my trademark", with the implication being that you will protect it.  However, it doesn't really offer you anything if you have to defend it in court - you still have to provide the proof of your claim over it.  Back to the photo album, old newspapers and the business archives.....

Much better to just register your trademark, then there is little argument!  This also lets others know you have such a trademark so they don't inadvertently try using the same or a similar one!

One last thing about trademarks is that they are separated into classes.  Without going into the details, it allows the same trademark to be used for different businesses, services or products - as long as there is no potential for confusion. For example Pioneer is used for concrete, coaches and electronic equipment.  There is no problem with this, since there is no confusion.


Remember, all of these 'Intellectual Property' protection mechanisms are meant for one thing - to allow the person who put in all the hard yards in creating something of value to gain some benefit from that effort.

I know Bill Gates might not need it these days, but he was instrumental in bringing us to where we are today. (Yeah, OK, I haven't forgotten Steve Jobs!)

*Brum6y*

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golden i am still looking for the word "palette" in brumby's post ..... hev been all day ...lol

I know where Golden found it .... you're just no looking in the right place....


... like that book for that lady....  :chair:

*Brum6y*

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... and I used the wrong word - it should have been 'pallet'.

White Witch

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Thank you very much brum6y for all that info.  :t2:

gr8-expectations

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mornin witchy poo .... i dont know if anyone filled you in YET but there are thread crossing fees here and you have crossed threads 3x now by my calculation .... this is just a courtesy notice and the NEW (3 X$20AUD) charges will appears on your next months invoice ....


HEV A NICE DAY!
;D

White Witch

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Are you sherioush? You have great expectations from me, and it ain't gonna happen!  :roflmao:

You gonna send me another of those fake Paypal emails I've been getting?  :rofl:

gr8-expectations

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lol, just an apprentice prank witchy .... at ease, as u were NO invoices at end of month, consider yerself "inducted"

gr8-expectations

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i used to "welcome invoice" all new members when they joined but it was rather controversial and i hed to stop lol, some wanted to pay ....

*smee*

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speaking of invoices .....does anyone remember this little tear jerker of a poem ?

No Charge




My little boy came into the kitchen this evening while I was fixing supper. And he handed me a piece of paper he'd been writing on. So, after wiping my hands on my apron, I read it, and this is what it said:

For mowing the grass, $5.
For making my own bed this week, $1.
For going to the store $.50.
For playing with baby brother while you went shopping, $.25.
For taking out the trash, $1.
For getting a good report card, $5.
And for raking the yard, $2.

Well, I looked at him standing there expectantly, and a thousand memories flashed through my mind. So, I picked up the paper, and turning it over, this is what I wrote:

For the nine months I carried you, growing inside me, No Charge.
For the nights I sat up with you, doctored you, prayed for you, No charge.
For the time and the tears, and the cost through the years, No Charge.
For the nights filled with dread, and the worries ahead, No Charge.
For advice and the knowledge, and the cost of your college, No Charge.
For the toys, food and clothes, and for wiping your nose, No Charge.
Son, when you add it all up, the full cost of my love is No Charge.

Well, when he finished reading, he had great big tears in his eyes. And he looked up at me and he said, "Mama, I sure do love you." Then he took the pen and in great big letters he wrote, PAID IN FULL.

...Author Unknown

White Witch

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Well.... I must admit... I went looking like crazy in the 'forum guidelines' section to see if I could find anything about payments.
And I almost emailed Lisa to ask her if this was true...You nearly got me. :applause:

Smee, stop murking around and spill the beans please. You know I won't stop bugging you, don't ya?  :idea: Give me a clue at least...

*smee*

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tellomon

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Smee is maven.














NOT!
"The B@zturd Love Child of Comix & a News Organization"

White Witch

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That doesn't help!  :tanty:  You're a black kid?

Why did you call me Witchy Poo? You're not Eggy, you wouldn't be Stinky... I spoke to her this morning.... :blah:

You could be Bunny? Fruity? You should know I have my secret agents investigating this matter as we shpeak  :help:

tellomon

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"The B@zturd Love Child of Comix & a News Organization"

Liisa-Sx

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They said there would be cake....and there WAS!

White Witch

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 :roflmao:  :biggirlpants:

Centuries

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 :parachute:

 :lurk:  :hijack: :o

 :knit:

 :chocgirl:





 :plane:
“I can't explain myself, I'm afraid, because I'm not myself, you see”  Lewis Carroll

White Witch

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Sorry Smee!  ;D

I thought you were someone that knows me from another forum 'Legy' and that I miss  :'( ;D She gave me the name of Witchy Poo, and I thought maybe you were her or someone else from that forum.

 :sleep: Good night!