The Oz Round Table boards > PayPal

Paypal's "Mission Impossible" - A Duty of Care

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*Brum6y*:
MORE BITS & PIECES

Along the way in the unfolding of this story, there have been a number of other bits of information that have come to light - which add some head-shaking details.  If I were to attempt to write about them, I'd be quickly wearing out my thesaurus in the pages around the ideas of 'incredible', 'unbelievable' and 'slack'.

Fortunately, this seller has done the work for me.

As a Powerseller, he has shared his story on the Powerseller Board and my seller friend, also being a Powerseller, has been able to assist me in capturing some of those posts.

As you will appreciate, out of respect for the privilege of discussion by Powersellers on the Powerseller Board, I am not going to publish any posts from any Powerseller without their permission, nor am I going to discuss any particular points raised by them.  I will, however, make a couple of general observations to put a context around the posts I will be quoting - and I don't think ANY of that will be a surprise at all.

The posts which follow are from the seller involved in this case.  I have obtained his explicit permission to do so and to 'format' some of the content to make it easier to read (essentially, just putting a bullet against each point).

The Context....
From the Powerseller Board, I need only outline these things for you to understand some references in the quoted posts:
1. Posting members are very interested and concerned in this case
2. Holidays to eBali are given
3. Our seller in this case has just come back from one. An excerpt from our seller on his return: "... vacations have never really been a strong preference of mine ... this one was not really a vacation ... up all night working 20 hours a day to prove i am innocent is not my idea of a vacation ..."
4. In his 'absence', other Powersellers had received information from him and posted it on the Powerseller Board ... carefully.


Now is the time to make that cuppa, get comfortable and buckle up....!

*Brum6y*:
ADMISSIONS & REVELATIONS

From the Powerseller Board (with permission):

Just read.........

14/01/2010 14:47

that was a quick 7 days ...

thank you all for your support in this situation ... post 79 ... all correct ...

at this time the item in question weighing 2.79kg as per the consignment note supplied in the dispute is still in customs and has been awaiting collection now for 6 days. i am told that if its not collected it will be destroyed as unclaimed as it has passed through german customs system and cannot now go back.

DHL have also said they are unable to retrieve the item for me as i am no longer the owner. in respect to if the buyer collects would it be fraud? simple answer no ... because he was awarded the item as a result of his SNAD win and legally entitled to the item paid or not under german common law.

what i have learned in the last 7 days after spending around $5000+ AUD on phone calls to Germany, US, AU and UK:

* buyer had done this more than once (manager in the US said 'has a history')
* buyer is well known to Police who were more than willing to assist with information but require me in person for a formal complaint (on the cards)
* buyer did the same thing to another HK seller in July 2009 for a $4000 item which he claimed was delivered as ''an empty box"
* buyer has in the last 6 months bought via the venue multiple accessories for the item never received from the other seller
* other seller lost their dispute and the payment.
* buyer has admitted he used the same method in this case 'because it worked last time'
* buyer used the same police report and altered the details to reflect this case
* buyer has stated he did what he was told ... opening an SNAD and immediately escalating it to a claim
* buyer still claims he did nothing wrong, has said he is entitled to both the money and the item (after several about faces)
* buyer still has an eBay account
* buyer still has a PayPal account
* buyer has still yet to receive any punishment
* buyer has claimed he has done this before and continues to do it
* …because it works every time
* buyer has had an account for more than 7 years but is only < buyer’s age (around 20)>
* buyer had assistance

* company never investigated the SNAD dispute
* company never investigated the first appeal
* company only opened the second appeal (3rd time lucky) which was granted after the company's representative was forced to look up online the tracking details that had been supplied from the beginning to see the item was in fact in customs and no where near the buyer who claimed the box was empty ... i am sure he really meant his post box was empty and waiting for the package to arrive ... translation issue no doubt.
* company has stated they made a mistake
* company has agreed all documentation supplied by the buyer was fake or forged
* company has agreed the buyer has a history of this type of dispute
* company refuses to give any detail of the documentation or copies of to the seller as the buyer is entitled to privacy

* seller has spent over $5,000 doing the job the company should have, has provided copious amounts of factual documentation, information and investigative assistance to the company and still no action ...
* seller has not received requested copies of the forged documentation which the company led the seller to believe were genuine and carried significant problems for the seller and penalties.
* seller has been told by the buyer he was told by the company not to give me a copy of the documentation
* seller has received a new police report from the buyer which appears to be for harassment and threatening behavior leveled at the seller but this is still being investigated as there are only 2 pages of the report which was 4 pages.

* INR opened was only closed to allow an SNAD dispute which the buyer could win

how many of the other $150,000+ cases of fraud on my account have been handled in the same manner and if i had spent the same amount of time and money doing the companies work in the past would i have found this out sooner?

how many other sellers have suffered the same fate as a result of lack of care on the part of the company like the seller mentioned above who lost $4000?

MODERATOR < this is addressing the eBay moderators >

the information above is true and correct as was all the other information supplied to assist other sellers before i was given my holiday. if you do not believe this to be true contact PP for advice on this before removing my post. sellers are being cheated by scams of this nature all the time and they should be aware of the methods used by some buyers. if you believe its better they just suffer the same for themselves to learn that is unfortunate and perhaps a result of the fact you earn a salary and do not have the same level of exposure to the risks of accepting fraudulent payments. as i have just spent more than most employees monthly salary and a week of my time getting the information i believe i have a right to share it with the other sellers who could be placed at risk.
 

14/01/2010 15:25

i have spoken at length to the other known seller who was a victim of this scam. he was not as fortunate as i with being able to get evidence against the buyer as english is a second language for him.

he does however have one of the largest HK eBay accounts and gets a lot of disputes but this one left a particular bitter taste in his mouth. he was very happy when i contacted him with all my information and the knowledge of his problem. he has now commenced follow up against the buyer and will be discussing with the company what can be done for him. i am in reality a small fish compared to this seller and i hope that he gets some satisfaction.

given the buyer is using the venue to purchase accessories for the item that arrived as an empty box, has admitted in writing that he has used the scam more than once and specifically names the other seller in his email one would hope that it will if nothing else exonerate the other seller of any wrong doing.

in the end no matter the outcome of all of this ... we both still have black marks on our accounts as a result of this scam and like the many others before cause considerable problems when they mount up and effect a lock down on the funds in our accounts.

the company needs to really address this type of situation and i hope my efforts this time around to prove that the buyer was pulling a scam even though they were aware of his history will help to make a change happen.

14/01/2010 20:57

thanks guys great to be back ... all has been forwarded to the BFSO in detail.

i totally agree ... unless others have had the experience they cannot imagine that its possible things like this can happen.

what it has proven and made 110% crystal clear is no seller can ever believe that a dispute has been investigated and or that the buyer has not used false statements, fake police reports or dishonest means to win their money back and when the buyer loses on default via the seller protection they are then encouraged and in this case assisted to get the money back by a fraudulent SNAD claim.

it took me over 7 hours of phone calls to the US with the proof i had from the german police to even get an admission the matter had not been investigated and that the company was aware the documentation was forged. even at that stage the buyer still had the win. only when i forced the point the item was showing as in customs on the DHL site was my appeal granted with the requirement i chase the buyer for the funds.

i was offered $100US for my phone expenses by one of the managers after i told him that i had spend over $5,000 to date chasing the buyer with legal fees, phone calls and other costs. i told him there was a place for the $100US and it was not my account ... (all recorded to boot).

as interesting and enticing as the story is the sad fact of the matter is sellers are paying the price for this type of scam and the company sits back and lets it happen. for me to take action i need a copy of the fake police report ... the company has told me i am not getting it from them and the buyer has said he has been told not to give it to me. at least i have a recorded admission from the company that they are fully aware the documents submitted by the buyer are forgeries and its not the first time he has done it.

the buyer still has his accounts intact ... how many times have i and other sellers been made to pay for the errors of others with suspended accounts, frozen or limited accounts and yet a blatantly open scam which has awarded this buyer over $7000 in goods we know of still does not cause his accounts to fall. how desperate are we for buyers that we are letting this go on?

i would post some of the most damning proof i have uncovered of this here but i am not ready for another trip to eBaili just yet ... and thats where i would go ...


Don't know about you, but I'm speechless.

However I am REALLY, REALLY keen to find out what happens next...!  Overseas travel perhaps...?

*smee*:
I refer you to athread I started on this forum on 16th July 2009 ..... Pay pal sellers protection .... its a figment of their imagination ..... I rest my case your honour !!!!!!

*Brum6y*:
BUT, didn't I read somewhere.....?

At PayPal, security is our top priority. We investigate fraudulent buyers and transactions in order to protect the integrity of our payments network. You can help protect yourself by following the steps outlined in our Seller Protection Policy.

To learn how to protect yourself from disputes, we recommend visiting the PayPal site and clicking the Security Centre link located at the bottom of any page. There you will find information in the 'Seller Protection Policy' section.

... and something else just as puzzling...?

This claim has been solved amicably. Please consider this when leaving feedback for this buyer.


Yep - you sure did.  These are excerpts from the SNAD dispute closure emails sent by Paypal.

Irony?  Hypocrisy? Hmmm... Think I'll grab my thesaurus again.

*Brum6y*:

--- Quote from: *smee* on January 18, 2010, 02:02:20 AM ---I refer you to athread I started on this forum on 16th July 2009 ..... Pay pal sellers protection .... its a figment of their imagination ..... I rest my case your honour !!!!!!

--- End quote ---

Just re-read that thread to reacquaint myself with it.

Certainly, the promotional material on 'Seller Protection' indicates a useful service and the requirements clearly (?) defined.  From what is published, you should not expect the sort of dismissive treatment that Paypal actually dish out - but they do.  It is an unfortunate reality that when these situations are presented on low cost items, the business decision to 'pursue the matter' or to 'write it off' supercedes principles.

I have no doubt that Paypal rely on this for a great deal of their resolution outcomes, however, the seller in the case presented here has the resources and energy to push through that barrier of superciliousness.

But you shouldn't need to.

In the case you presented, Smee, it would seem that Paypal themselves created the problem and then 'withheld' your money. That really worries me - but I would ask: "Why did you let them get away with it?".

Why didn't you pursue them for information, an explanation, return of your funds - and persist until you had satisfaction?

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not singling you out to have a go at you - the same questions apply to any seller who has encountered problems not of their own making.

And I am more than aware of the reason.  As I said above, it's just not worth the time, cost and effort for most sellers.  (By their actions, Paypal are certainly aware of this and taking full advantage of it).


But I hear you say "That's all bollocks! I shouldn't have to go through all that."

... and I could not agree more - but it's this elitist, bullying attitude that needs to be broken, even though it has no right to even exist in the first place.


The problem exists. It is undeniable, but a million plaintive posts on the forums of the world decrying this sad state are so easily ignored.  Why? Because they can be.  And thus, by being ignored, lose their power.

However, this is a story about Paypal being shown they can be held accountable, the efforts that have been made in order to make this happen and the discovery of some dirty little secrets along the way.


This is a story of challenge and, perhaps, one step further towards change.

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