Secrets of Success on eBay

[mandurahmum]

I never do searches by best match - but by time ending soonest too.  Too many fakes and copies came up with best match - in the coins section that is

[*Brum6y*]

Yes, I think your spot on there Bazza. I do two searches, one by key word and then by category, I always change the best matched to ending soonest.

This shows you have some experience and are aware of the limitations of 'Best Match'

I really don't think anyone with 1/2 a brain would bother with best matched and I feel most every seller knows this.

A lot of casual buyers just wouldn't know the shortcomings of 'Best Match' and the drop-down choices would be considered just different ways of sorting the information according to their understanding - which, by the fact that eBay doesn't advertise or fully disclose the mechanism, would be assumed to be in the buyer's best interest.  This is normal marketing tactics - let the buyer feel good about some aspect of a deal and they will believe it is good for them.  EBay knows this only too well and have secured a lot of the 'feel good' illusion by giving it the title 'Best Match'.  Only seasoned buyers will know better - and they will work around it, as you have.

I just don't understand why a seller would jeopardise their business so it "looks" like their stuff is moving, moving where? what do they do with it once it "sells" resell it? over and over??

Whether a seller's business is in jeopardy will depend on several factors, many of which eBay really don't care or monitor - but the 'movement' perception is very significant.  Where the items are physically moving to is totally irrelevant (Unless you are a buyer who examines a purchase as microscopically as Philip.Cohen has in his research, which I would say is a rather insignificant number.)  The assumption is that the seller's merchandise is moving 'out the door' - and that's all that needs to be believed.

As an example - I was talking to my mechanic a couple of months back and we got talking about when he started up.  He had the premises, signage, equipment and so on - but no clientele.  He told me how he got all his family, friends, workers or anyone with a spare car to have them at his workshop, so it looked busy.  Nothing puts off a potential customer than an empty workshop - since the assumption is 'He mustn't be any good'.  His very first customer looked around at all the vehicles at the place and nervously asked if he could 'spare some time' to have a look at his car.

If an item sells, to the seller, then, yes - they simply put it back up.  Not rocket science, but of questionable ethics.  If the seller prompted activity results in a higher price that is paid by a real buyer, then that's shill bidding - even if the seller was aiming to buy it himself (or by one of his cronies), just to record a sale and establish some activity and someone else who really wanted to buy one came in on the item.

Activity creates interest.

A quiet building site will see most people just walk by - but put a ditch digger or a crane to work and people will look - even stop for a while...

You walk past two fruit shops where the merchandise looks as good as each other but one has a couple of bored staff and a lone browser while the other has a dozen customers selecting produce, five waiting at the checkout and three people madly restocking the shelves... to which one would you be drawn to buy your fruit and veg?

Unfortunately, the truth is irrelevant in most cases - it's the perception that counts.

The perception of activity in a seller's offerings is all that it's about ... since that's one very real factor in the encouragement of real sales.

[*smee*]

Brumby . I see you have given this answer a lot of thought , and as a result a lot of your answer makes sense , except the seller, Phil Cohen is talking about has a feedback score of over 12000  sales !!!!! and is one of the most if not  the single most succesful seller on ebay world wide ,according to the original story he is selling over $1 worth per month   dont you think thats busy enough without having to buy his own stuff to create a perception of activity  ?????

To use the example of your mechanic ..... once he got flat out with real customers he wouldnt still get his family and friends to keep parking their cars in the workshop , they would in fact hinder his business now ....

I am sorry but to suggest that this particular seller , with the number of customers he has with his turnover would buy his own stuff is bodering on the ridiculous actually its crossed the border !!!
Its akin to suggesting that that each Saturday Gerry Harvey from Harvey Norman hires a van and drives to one of his own stores and buys a van load of his own merchandise just to I mean realmake it look like his business is thriving .......

[*smee*]

that last line should read ... just to make it look like his business is thriving ????

to quote Al Borland  .... I dont think so Tim !!!!

[Philip.Cohen]

If anyone has a little time to spare, Jason Houston has just done an extensive dump on eBay, at:

http://www.businessinsider.com/meg-whitmans-bad-timing-running-for-california-governor-2009-9#comment-4aebd79700000000009ffaaf

[tinker]

Hi Brumby,  Thanks for your response but what doesn't quite make sense to me is, best match is all about key wording, as smee has pointed out, for example, if I search 'gold ring' or 'antique book' what comes up first? the items that have those exact words in their title…not some irrelevant item that is moving fast, like a oil painting.

Again, in my opinion, eBay have messed up buy making the best match the default result, as I agree some newcomers may not know how to use this option, although I don’t think it would take them long to figure it out, as I don’t believe that people are that silly.

Yes, I understand that actual businesses create an appearance of activity to bring genuine buyers in, it’s called “retail Phycology” (I’ve done it in real life myself) but this practise does not usually cost the seller money nor is it ‘against the rules’ so therefore potentially harming their business if discovered.

If you look at how law enforcement investigate crime (I know we’re not coppers here but IMO it’s a good tool to advocate to when trying to figure if something is true) they will use something called ‘reasonable suspicion’ this is a question they ask themselves before taking action, like, 'does this make sense or is it at all possible’ in my opinion, this actual theory of Philip.Cohen’s does not hold reasonable suspicion to convict this seller, in my opinion.

I have taken the time to read some of Philip.Cohen’s research and found that some of the cases do hold reasonable suspicion for me but on the other hand some also look simply like “bad blood" I could be wrong and this is only my opinion.

I would like to hear from the sellers in question, what say we invite them to “question time”?

There are always two sides to every argument, no?

[cueperkins]

I would like to hear from the sellers in question, what say we invite them to “question time”?

There are always two sides to every argument, no?

No doubt,....but, who's 'We'?

Brumby as usual, an intelligent post, demonstrating a sound knowledge of 'Retail Psychology'.  Now I understand, that there is some incentive for a seller to make it look as though their items are moving....but that it's not seemingly an unlawful practice so it's fairly innocuous.......

By Comparison however, I don't think any of us here could say that Shill bidding doesn't happen on Ebay....but unlike best offer, shilling crosses the line to fraud because the activity itself is aimed at deceiving buyers into paying more than they might have done.  In other words it is profit by deception. 

I can't see the same analogy with 'Best Offer', because obviously no money is changing hands in that scenario....in the Shill bidding scenario, buyers are being duped into a bidding war, where they are deceived into paying more....so that's fraud, that Ebay do nothing to curtail...Phil's right in that regard...they completely ignore all levels of Proactive and Reactive Risk management.

Ebay ensure via their hidden bidder system that shilling is extremely difficult to demonstrate tangibly...and that's why most of the evidence one can amass on shill bidding is circumstantial.......

If ebay were serious about cleaning up all levels of fraud on their site, they'd be verifying sellers and holding them accountable for unconscionable conduct.....or at the very least, enabling consumers to hold them accountable under consumer protection laws.  Anyone who has done their research on Ebay fraud, will know that one precedent study concluded that it is not in Ebay's interest to verify sellers or clean up fraud, because they profit from it.  (NOT MY WORDS - the conclusion of a nation wide consumer fraud study).

This same conclusion was quoted again by the Supervisor of that study, in the ABC feature on Paypal, EBS and DDD in 2008.  I can go and get the exact quotes if anyone is interested.  It's not a new revelation by any means...as I recall 4000 consumers were ripped off by EBS...one of ebay's so called powersellers, a veritable 'Cornerstone' of the ebay community??????? and taking their powerseller guarantee into account, the average buyer would have considered EBS a safe bet right?.....wrong.  They were one of Ebay's BIGGEST sellers in Australia, and yet even with many hundreds of negs, and an unpaid Ebay account to the tune of more than $200.000.00....Ebay aided and abetted that seller to continue trading....whether insolvent or fraudulent, it doesn't matter, they enabled them to defraud thousands of unsuspecting consumers, by doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to shut them down.

And some are saying they don't favour some sellers?  dreamin.....if that's true, how the hell did EBS get that far in debt to Ebay (who by the way was one of the first creditors listed ahead of all ripped off consumers) without being shut down?  I've had my account suspended for being late with $20.00....and yet EBS traded for 3 months after the first negs started, owing nearly $200,000.00?  Explain that....lol

Ironically, ebay finally closed EBS' account a month after the owners had skipped the country, and by that stage with nearly 800 NEGS.....much more than circumstantial, and no doubt still happening.  I can't agree that Ebay don't favour Powersellers, they do.  The very fact that a PS has an account manager and phone access, whereas the average seller does not, aptly demonstrates that ebay do favour certain sellers over others.

[*Brum6y*]

OK Smee, I see what you mean, but if that is the same seller who had 30 of-odd their items noted in this thread with only 3 feedback left, then I'm curious as to why such a low rate of feedback.

But if the seller is that successful, then they may simply have some "personal issues" where they can't help themselves - and do hop into their 'Gerry Harvey' van and go for a drive.

Lots more questions than I have time to spend researching. Frustrating in discussions like this, but a fact of life.

[*smee*]

Brumby Good point why only 3 feedback from 30 items sold ... lets look at the facts ... and do the maths ..those 30 items mention were recent sales ... the last 14 days I believe ... we are talking some expensive items here so there is a fair chance not all were paid for via instant payment , not a lot of people have a lazy 15 large laying around in their pay pal a/c so perhaps some paid in 2 or 3 days , some may have been e-cheques some may have been other forms of payment that take a few days some just may have been slow payers ... we dont know that , on top of that from memory the seller says in his TOS he will post  items 4 business days after payment , also this seller is based in the states his buyers are worldwide (we know how slow some overseas post can be ) ... taking all this into consideration is it not possible that most of these buyers havent even received their watches yet ? Also bear in mind that since ebay changed the feedback rules quite a lot of people dont leave feed back at all , without doing the actual sums my fedback received ratio to sales would be  somewhere in the vicinity of 75 to 80 %.. I would expect the feedback to strart slowly filtering back for these sales but I am by no means suprised that only 10% have come in so far based on the above as its highly posible not many more than that have received ther items yet ... perhaps I will check out his feedback for other type of sales and see what the average time is from sale date to feedback left that might be able to be used as a guage maybe ?

[*Brum6y*]

Yes, Smee, that would be a good measuring stick.  Let me not stop you!



Tinker, there are (at least) two very basic, distinct and quite independent steps in purchasing an item -
1. Locating the item - with various sellers.
2. Choosing a seller from whom you will purchase that item.

The first can be performed by looking up a list. For fruit shops you could use the Yellow Pages or for mechanics, you could look up the MTAA.  On eBay, you use their search (more on this below).

The second is where the 'perception of activity' element applies (as well as feedback and other assessment criteria).


On the topic of the search, it is a fundamental that if you type in "rolex watch" in your search that ONLY entries with those words are returned (plurals and other appropriate derivatives included), so I'm not suggesting any irrelevant results will be thrown up at you.

BUT in the above case, over 9,000 entries were found - so the question is: IN WHAT ORDER are THESE 9,000 presented to the buyer?

That is a VERY BIG question and the fundamental one for any search.

The answer is that there are OTHER criteria used - which are 'behind the scenes', but very real.  After all, you're not going to let a list of 9,000 items get presented in any old order, are you?  EBay certainly doesn't.  It would make sense to try and present those 9,000 in an order that would most likely result in higher returns to eBay - ie maximise sales value and thus FVF's ... which will attract more listings... and so on.

Playing around with the unofficial eBay search assessment tool, it is clearly stated that OTHER words in the title (ones you have NOT put into your search) affect this.

For example, if the word "guarantee" is in the title of an item and previous sales (from any and all sellers) show that items with the word "guarantee" in their title result in sales (and, perhaps, at higher prices) more often than those items that don't, then those items will rank higher on what is referred to as a "Desirability" score.

This simply means that, although you didn't specifically ask for something with a guarantee, the search engine knows from previous experience that you are more likely to buy something with the word "guarantee" in its title.

The total "desirability" score for an item is the result of an assessment of all the other words in the title (and I haven't begun to understand the mechanics of it all) and this will affect that ordering of those 9,000 Rolex watch listings.

But wait, there's more!

It is quite clear that with 'Best Match', eBay has extended this "desirability" factor by including sales history - I refer again to Shyer's experience presented in this thread.

This is not a new observation - many people have spent many hours checking, experimenting and analysing to come to this conclusion.  From the reports I have come across, the weighting of the components in the total "desirability score" would seem to be grossly tilted towards the sales history.

This does make sense (it is analogous to my Fruit Shop example above) but, like all things where mechanical rules have been set in place, it is open to aberrations, inconsistencies and manipulation.

I will leave you to ponder what specific practices affect your experiences, but I'll stick my neck out and say eBay will simply look at maximising their income.

[*smee*]

The other curve ball I would like to throw in is this ....

As a seller would you want your item to appear at the top of a search list ... I dont particulary ..... yes I would like it to be on the first page of any relevant list... but I can see advantages in having it displayed at around about a third to half way down the page

[*Brum6y*]

As for Philip.Cohen's efforts, it is clear that not all his assertions are demonstrable fact - but that there are some trends that could indicate less than conscionable conduct.

I applaud the efforts he has made - the presentation and energetic debate he puts into his observations.  I may not agree with his conclusions in all cases, but I can usually concede there IS something curious in the matters he raises.

If nothing else, he will make us work to try and prove him wrong - and that's a very good thing in itself, since we will have done some hard thinking.  It's often so easy to just toddle along with superficial understanding, so it's good to be 'kept honest' with this type of debate.

I will admit that, sometimes, it can get obscure, though.  Often someone who has done some very intense analysis is aware of some subtleties in the detail that those of us looking at the whole package just haven't been able to drill down to ... Sorta like the engine designer at Ford or Holden can describe the why's and wherefore's of the compression characteristics of an inlet valve spring (that you and I could appreciate if we had the time), but is a bit difficult to fathom when you are presented with a complete engine ready to run.


It is more than likely that it will be people like Philip.Cohen that will find eBay's clay feet.

[*Brum6y*]

The other curve ball I would like to throw in is this ....

As a seller would you want your item to appear at the top of a search list ... I dont particulary ..... yes I would like it to be on the first page of any relevant list... but I can see advantages in having it displayed at around about a third to half way down the page

I hadn't thought about that one ... but I am inclined to agree.

Just thinking through my own perceptions, I now realise that I am inclined to discount the value of the top few entries to me, simply because I expect them to have "paid" for their position and not necessarily a best fit to my needs.

[*Brum6y*]

Would be interesting to try and get your Rolex watches placed at 10, 11 and 12 out of 9,000!

[shyer]

....I really don't think anyone with 1/2 a brain would bother with best matched and I feel most every seller knows this.....
PART 2 what do they do with it once it "sells" resell it? over and over??

My personal experience disagrees with you tinker over 1/2 of all my eBay sales I have setup conversations with buyer before or after sale. 70% of them do not know that best match is search default or know how to change to other sort options. Another 10% believe best match is best search for them.
Also up to 3 years ago most of my sales went to expensive suburbs and usually intelligent and / or well educated people. Now 3/4 of sales go to the working poor,  pension or housing commission suburbs. The intelligent have left eBay for direct on line shopping, they are fed up with the fakes and thieves on the site. They do not have the time to investigate every purchase before paying nor does eBay help them.
Best match is about best fees for eBay. Ebay knows eBay's average buyer has dumbed down and only understand the simple options. These 'bargain hunter" buyers chasing a 10% or so "discount" that often is fake or not what deal first appeared to be.
EBay is in survival mode trying to hold the share price up with tanked sales thus fees static as well, the senior management wants to sell its stock options at the best match for them. The long term expensive ( low share price) job of cleaning eBay up or a new "Clean" compeditor winning is more the likely match ending. I now for some items go first to amazon and have yet to have had any problems with any seller on amazon. Or I go to a direct on line retailer.

PART 2 Yes they do resell it, eventually to a real buyer.

[*smee*]

I certainly do not dispute that Phil has put a lot of work into exposing cheats of ebay , I agree that shill bidding occurs , but this whole debate started because in the original post on Auction Bytes Phil indicated that he believed this seller was making offers on his own best offer listings in an attempt to create a falsey inflated price similar to shill bidding , I merely questioned him on this and it became apparent Phil did not understand how best offer work it was clear that he thought the listing stood for the duration and at the end of the listing time the item sold to the best offer much the same as a silent auction .... Once this became clear Phil modified his posting On auction bytes so the accustion read different he also manipulated his answers on this forum to take the focus away from that pointand make it sound like his original statement was hypothetically suggesting that the seller might buy his own stuff to create a perception of activity on his account .... In my previous post here today I have semostrated why this seller would have no need to do that ,  on three seperate occassions I directly asked phil a question in relation to his understanding of how best offer on ebay works on each occassion he has refused to answer directly . For those who have now taken the time to listen too and understand how Best Offer works they now know Phil erred in his original accusation of this seller in relation to the best offer listings .

I am not saying thats a bad thing  , we all make mistakes , ( the bad thing is that he didnt have the cohoonies to admit it ) what I am saying is dont take for gospel what he says just because he has done good work in the past ... he is not the Messiah ...in this instance ...... he has been a very naughty boy ... and he knows it

[*Brum6y*]

Shyer, I had my feelings about what you have stated, but as a buyer and casual observer I had no hard evidence.

Sharing your concrete experiences as a seller is truly appreciated.

[*Brum6y*]

Sorry Smee - I wasn't directing anything at you, if it seemed that way.

I will admit to being guilty of not doing a lot of background reading - especially when it comes to multi-location ongoing discussions - so if I've come across a bit skewed on a personal aspect, I do apologise.  I'll let you invite Tello to chastise me (but not Ubbrd - he hasn't had a good keelhauling for some time from what I have observed).

But, hopefully, I have kept the kernel of my comments in the light.

[shyer]

Would be interesting to try and get your Rolex watches placed at 10, 11 and 12 out of 9,000!

One thing that is over looked here is all auctions (apart from featured items) get their day on the first page and move up the page as time to ends counts downs . Again favouring the shilling seller who is not using a BIN or best offer. The shill is his reserve.
Also using the search "rolex waches " on USA ebay to get 9000 items every one soon learns to include the model or part name looking for in search. Or to click on category "womens" or "1970 - 1980" etc. This topic also demonstrates how Australian ebay with its small market , ebay spin is soon seen as spin USA is harder to spot.

[*smee*]

I havent taken it that way at all Brumby ....

[*Brum6y*]

For 'Time ending soonest' I have no argument, but one seller I has spoken to did some checking with the 'Best Match' and said to me that the way eBay said auction items that were ending soon should be presented just wasn't happening.

I haven't checked this out - but it is curious if it even seems that way to someone who's been around eBay for years.

[*Brum6y*]

Good to know, Smee.

[tellomon]

 



Tee-heee 

[tinker]

No doubt,....but, who's 'We'?


I was referring to the good people of this site, have I made yet another mistake with including myself in this, did I Cupid? My apologies.

I made it quite clear that I can see some logic in this theory but I am not convinced it’s enough to go to the lengths of naming and shaming.

If you try hard enough I bet you could turn a pig’s ear into a silk purse?

Heath ledger could be alive and kicking?

There are UFOs?

As far as asking for the victims of this ridiculous accusation to come defend themselves, I should say that won’t happen?? God forbid Philip has actually got it all wrong!!

Look, I’m done with this silliness; I too talk to many eBayers, buyers and sellers alike, including the people named in some of Philips accusations.

Let’s just hope you don’t try selling a painting that he wants and doesn’t get for nicks.

Good day.

[tellomon]

[Philip.Cohen]

… in the original post on Auction Bytes Phil indicated that he believed this seller was making offers on his own best offer listings in an attempt to create a falsey inflated price similar to shill bidding

Smee, now I realise how our original debate got so far off track. Unfortunately, I never said that. What I said was:

“And even those few “Best Offer” transactions that appear to have sold, can we be any more sure that these are genuine sales than are many of the auction sales which are so obviously not genuine sales? Unfortunately, eBay has deliberately structured these non-auction selling formats so that there is absolutely no transparency post-sale. Methinks that there may be few FVFs for eBay in this lot.”

[*smee*]

no Phil thats what it reads now , thats not what was originally in the post . Is it ?

but I am prepared to drop that eh , I would have really liked an honest yes or no answer to the question I asked on 3 occassions , but I understand that wont be forth coming . So how about we do what I suggested previously in reply 68 and see what that reveals ... I refer to this

Ok Phil I would be very interested to see the results ... I trust that you will record  the actual results and report on them as actual fact and not manipulate , bend , fabricate or out right lie about or add any hypotheticals to them , lets just see the results as they come back and take it  from there

[*FluffyDuckee*]

Hi Phil,

I just read this after clicking onto your original link from Auction Bytes:

 think there may be a lesson here: unscrupulous sellers should endeavour to keep as low a profile as possible lest they one day be caught with their pants/panties down. Shill bidding is rampant on eBay auctions and that is undoubtedly the real reason why many sellers use a separate “posting” ID when chatting on the eBay forums—particularly on the UK Motors forum.

I've always thought people had posting ID's to protect their selling ID's, not because they are schilling, but because they have experienced people interferring with their sales.  I have never head this theory before.  Not saying it may not be true in some cases, but I have never heard of one case and to the contrary know many ebay forum posters who use an alias for the reason I have already described.

And... not all sellers have posting ID's.  To give an example, I know Smee posts with his selling ID.

[Philip.Cohen]

Hi everyone,

Re the abuse of eBay’s “clunky” proxy bidding system

A while back someone told me that past “mutually agreed” bid retractions are not registered on a bidder’s Bid History “Details” page, only bids unilaterally retracted by a bidder are so recorded. I have no way of knowing if this is correct. Does anyone know the truth of the matter?

On the individual auction, bid retractions/cancellations appear at the base of the auction’s primary Bid History page. I’ve seen bids retracted for reasons such as “bidder entered wrong amount” (and then made no further bid!), “seller ended auction early and cancelled all bids” (and we then have the quite ludicrous situation where the system then publishes the values of the maximum proxy bids that were made and does not supply the feedback counts of the bidders so that it is impossible to even anonymously identify the bidders …).

If it is the case, the statistic on the Bid History Details page is pointless from the point of view of a buyer looking to judge the bona fides of a competing bidder, as a shill bidder’s bid retractions will always be “mutually agreed”. A record of only unilaterally retracted bids would only be of interest to a seller. And the further question would be, if “mutually agreed” retraction do not appear on the Bid History Details page, do they also not appear on the auction’s primary Bid History page? Could eBay really be so devious? I suspect so; they will do absolutely anything to protect the revenue.

Any knowledgeable comments?

Fluffy*Duckee,

I would have said they were one and the same. Sellers use a posting ID to “protect” their selling ID. In other words they can discuss all sorts of matters on the forums without identifying themselves and thereby risking damaging their selling reputation.

[*FluffyDuckee*]

Fluffy*Duckee,

I would have said they were one and the same. Sellers use a posting ID to “protect” their selling ID. In other words they can discuss all sorts of matters on the forums without identifying themselves and thereby risking damaging their selling reputation.

I'm afraid I see them as quite different Phil.

I'm sure you are familiar with the word 'motive' and know what it means.  

Motive 1.  People use posting ID's because, they want to keep their selling ID unknown because they have fears (real or imagined) that people will interfere with their sales.  (ie buy something and then post terrible feedback is one example - I have heard of this happening)

Motive 2.  People use posting ID's because they are schill bidders on their own items and want to be incognito, so people won't find out who they are and analyse their auctions

I would suggest people have their own reasons (motive) for having posting ID's, just as sellers have different ways of dealing with their sales.

I do not believe that a good proportion of posting ID's are because people are schill bidders, which is what your auction bytes post infers.  In fact, I would say that most schill bidders are not interested in most of the forum discussions, because they are not interested in the correct way to do things.  In fact if they did access the forums, they would soon learn that schill bidding is wrong.




 
 
 

[cueperkins]

I think the term 'Posting ID' is the problem here....having another ID other than your selling ID, and registering that ID in your own name with a different email addie is not a problem...most ISP's provide up to 5 email accounts you can use if you're legitimate....but Ebay enable anyone including the 1000 headed hydra (with motives we all know well), to sign up using a completely fabricated name, address and throw away email addie....so it's THOSE ID's that are highly suspicious and so easy to open....as we've all witnessed time and time again. 

As I've said on many occasions, if Ebay were to limit the number of accounts per member to one for buying, one for selling and one for posting, then that would tighten things up considerably...of course their imagined membership numbers would go down the toilet so no incentive for ebay to get proactive.  If someone wanted more than three accounts, they could apply for it....but presently, we all know that you can sign up a g-mail account, sign up to Ebay using a totally fabricated name and throw away number (prepaid mobile for instance) and as long as the address you supply matches the postcode for that area..hey presto...you're a member.

Real secure from anonymous scammers right? bit like shooting consumer fish in a barrel...  In fact the 2007 stats produced by Qld police Online auction Fraud reporting traced half of Qld's fraud to 23 recidivist ebay fraudsters.....it's that easy to get access to a nation wide pool of victims (time and time again). So shill bidding ID's are free and clear to do what they please (As are serial Forum Trolls) because ebay make it so easy to sign up using fabricated details.....and to a great extent, so are blatant fraudsters...they can literally vanish with no way to trace them...courtesy of ebay's ad hoc membership practices.....I agree with Phil that Ebay have the power to completely remove much of the fraud on Ebay, simply by verifying and limiting members to 3 accounts max...but they would lose money so they have no incentive.  And after all, they found a way to commodify fraud, it's called Paypal...so why clean up what you make money bullshitting consumers with?  Shall we discuss Paypus' illusory buyer protection next?

anyway...just saying.

[shyer]

....Look, I’m done with this silliness; I too talk to many eBayers, buyers and sellers alike, including the people named in some of Philips accusations......

I would think only an ebay employee would have access to all the phone numbers of  "the people named " interesting comment.
While Phil may focus on shill bidding and others like the roo reporters on hijacked accounts. There is in my opinion a range of bad to understandable shills IE bad is nibble bids then retraction so buyer is forced to maximum bid. Good is when item is damaged / lost/ realised description mistake in last few hours of an auction. A honest sellers only way to cancel auction is to get a friend to put a stupidly high bid on and no one is upset or unconvinced.
Is a bad shill buying your own items so you are not pushed to the end of searches in Worst match? only light grey in my opinion eBay / paypal however are nearly black. If I list on USA eBay in many categories I can set a reserve like all sensible people do on items of value. No sensible sellers allowed on OZ eBay. If a shill is used for a reserve I still see as light grey, eBay is the real villain in twisting the market.

[cueperkins]

I agree that Ebay set the stage, and the standards to enable this Shyer, and ultimately it is they who I hold responsible also....it's their marketplace....plain and simple..... but I can't agree that Shilling is anything other than fraud....deception for profit....so in that regard, it should be stopped and can not be justified as being merely opportunistic on any sellers part..it's dishonest.

[cueperkins]

or...have I misunderstood your post?

[Roo]

Fluffy...you may not remember some of the most memorable shillers that have graced Ebay's boards.

Some even use all their ID's to back themselves up in a thread..lol

One of my favourites was shonky car sales man....we had fun with that one for days!

And not to forget a poster that was known as Maggie...who resold a Darth Vader helmet...a few times...lol

Ahhhh...those were the days....

[*smee*]

Shyer you can set a reserve on AU its called your listing starting price ... that is your reserve your starting price ... if you arent perepared to sell it for under A grand start your listing at a grand ... simple ....I realise thats not ideal but its the best we can honestly do on au.  

I would think only an ebay employee would have access to all the phone numbers of  "the people named " interesting comment

You dont need to have a list of phone numbers to talk to other ebayers you can simply contact them through the contact a member facility  

I find it amusing that in this one thread how many people have been accused of or incinuated that they are Ebay staff let me see now ... ummm riff, trade guy . myself , Tinker and possibly Bazza .... do you really think that 5 ebay staff think that 5 ebay staff would all be that interested in this ... really do you .... be honest now .....I would be surprised if thay actually had 5 real staff members

[*FluffyDuckee*]

Hi Roo,

How are ya?  All loved out?  Don't over do it.  he he

No I do not remember any of the people who you refer to.  But I do know that the people I know personally who have posting ID's such you and I, do NOT do it to cover schill bidding, which is why you are really not a mouse and I am really not a duck.  lol

Succintly my point is that whilst it is possible that some people may use a posting ID to cover schill bidding when they post on Ebay forums, I think that most people who post do so to protect either themselves or their sales, as we all know prancing around on the internet can hold dangers if people know who you are and this does not necessarily mean you are doing anything wrong.

[cueperkins]

Fluffy, I don't think shill bidding ID's post on the forums much....they are designed for a purpose and posting in Ebay's laughable snake pit of a forum is not essentially one of them.  Probably some do, but I don't think you can assume that those signing up as shill bidders are a minority on that basis.....I'd say a lot a shilling goes on but as Phil has demonstrated previously, Ebay's hidden bidder system makes it almost impossible to prove tangibly.....Circumstantial evidence is all you can get access to, but at the end of the day, it all stems back to Ebay's ad hoc membership system.....they let anyone sign up, so using throw away ID's for any number of purposes is taken advantage of by those with devious intent as well as those trying to protect their identity from trolls.  Even the trolls themselves wreaking more havoc on their victims take total advantage of Ebay's laughable membership process...

[shyer]

....deception for profit....so in that regard, it should be stopped and can not be justified as being merely opportunistic on any sellers part..it's dishonest.

 Cupie a seller can not cancel an ebay auction ( should be called tender but not a word the public understands) if it is under 24 hours to close and item has bids. If an item is grossly misdescribed or now damaged etc. an honest seller will cancel the auction with a friendly stupidly high bid IMHO. People will disagree with me I know , but I do think there are light or dark grays and blacks in shilling.

Smee I do take your point about a starting price but then it is not an auction is it??  A real auction has lots of bidders till an item gets over wholesale value and then only a few retail buyers left. Also tinker sailor used the word "talk" not write or correspond

[*FluffyDuckee*]

Fluffy, I don't think shill bidding ID's post on the forums much

Yep Cupie, that is my point.  Thanks.  I was just saying that most people posting on ebay forums are not covering schill bidding, by demonstrating two such people (myself and Roo) who don't have a posting id for that purpose.  

 

[cueperkins]

Oh Ok...you're welcome....lol

[tellomon]

Hi Roo,

How are ya?  All loved out?  Don't over do it.  he he

[*smee*]

Cupie a seller can not cancel an ebay auction ( should be called tender but not a word the public understands) if it is under 24 hours to close and item has bids. If an item is grossly misdescribed or now damaged etc. an honest seller will cancel the auction with a friendly stupidly high bid IMHO. People will disagree with me I know , but I do think there are light or dark grays and blacks in shilling.

Sorry Shyer , you have been ill informed again I believe ... might I suggest you go to ebay help page and type cancel a listing in the search field you will get a list of about 32 rules/policies that cover this ... seek and yea shall find !!!!!  

I will give you a head start ... here is one that contradicts what you state ...
Ending Your Listing Early
If you cannot complete your listing as planned, you can end your listing before the scheduled date. If there are bids on your item, you can cancel them.

Reasons for ending listings early include:

The item is no longer available for sale.

There was an error in the starting price or reserve amount.

There was an error in the listing.

The item was lost or broken.

Note: Your account will still be charged listing fees (such as the Insertion Fee) if you end your listing early. Consider revising your listing first if there are aspects of it you want to change or improve.

Timing Matters

When there are 12 hours or less remaining and the item has a winning bid, including a reserve met bid, sellers cannot make any changes to the listing, including:

Ending the item early. Sellers may cancel bids, but not end the item unless the item is being sold to the high bidder.

Adding to or changing the item description.

Note: Canceling bids or making changes to a listing with bids when there are 12 hours or less remaining, can damage the buyer experience and can undermine trust in the marketplace.

To end your listing early


Type your item number into the End My Listing Early form. (You can get this number on your listing View Item Page, on your confirmation email, or on your My eBay page.)

If there are bids on your item, choose between:
a. Cancel bids and end listing early
or
b.Sell item to high bidder(s) and end listing early
If your item has no bids, you can skip this step.

Choose the reason you're ending your listing early.

Your listing will end and will no longer be displayed on eBay. If there were bidders, they will be emailed that their bid will be canceled.


Note: Sellers are not permitted to cancel bids and end listings early in order to avoid selling an item that did not meet the desired sale price. This is considered to be reserve fee circumvention. Although there are legitimate reasons for ending a listing early, abuse of this option will be investigated.

[shyer]

Smee you are right ebay has done away with the stupid 24 hour rule . I just await the next stupid new rule. To replace the current stupid 12 hour rule

When there are 12 hours or less remaining and the item has a winning bid, including a reserve met bid, sellers cannot make any changes to the listing, including:

Ending the item early. Sellers may cancel bids, but not end the item unless the item is being sold to the high bidder.

[*smee*]

I am not disputing the rules are stupid at all Shyer I am with you all the way there .
But just because they are stupid doesnt mean they should be misquoted it could lead vulnerable people astray .....
but I guess only ebay employees would know the rules eh ..........

[*Brum6y*]

but I guess only ebay employees would know the rules eh ..........

...if only.

[*smee*]

yes your right Brumby ... wouldnt that be nice ....

I shall be bringing that very point up at this years staff Christmas party 

[*Brum6y*]

As for posting ID's, we have
(a) scumbag sellers hiding their shady dealings from honest members
and
(b) honest sellers wishing to protect their business from attack by small-minded, petty and insecure button-pushers.

While I do not deny the possibility of both of these profiles, the logic and practicality is very clear...

1. Scumbag sellers aren't likely to show their face on forums.  They will be talking to an extremely small section of the buying membership and likely not to anyone with a buying interest in their products - or influence on others who might be. Also, they aren't likely to enter into discussion that could fuel interest in their activities.

2. Honest sellers will attract anything from jealousy to retalliation - for any manner of statements interpreted as threatening to the self-esteem of those weak-minded individuals and consortia that can inflict real damage to a business.

Type 1, I haven't come across
Type 2, I have - on more than one occasion.

Sorry Phil, but I cannot agree that there is any real issue with the type 1.  I don't say there aren't any, but just that 1% would be an over-estimation...

... in my opinion.

[*FluffyDuckee*]

Thank you nice horsey, you have reiterated my point exactly. 

BTW - are you really a horse? 

 

[cueperkins]

I'm confused...what do Posting Id's have to do with people who sign up using dodgy fabricated ID's to defraud people in any number of ways?....I don't think the forums have much to do with the level of fraud going on within Ebay itself, and quite frankly, it's largely underestimated because most people have no idea who to turn to for redress, and the sum of the loss is not great enough to go through all the trouble of finding out.  Sheesh in 2008, there were around 7,000 people who got ripped off on Ebay in all the various scams, including the Holiday scam, several fraudulent computer scams, several ticket scams, EBS, DDD, LI, CS..... and then all the ones that went unreported?.....just in one year? (I only researched the ones that were reported by media even in rural locations)......The first of these were fabricated ID's....the last four major rip offs were actual businesses (and one was a serial offender) who had obviously set consumers up for a big time sting....and those were the ones Ebay allowed to keep trading with hundreds of negs mounting up.....

So tell me, what do posting ID's have to do with shill billing and fraud on ebay and the use of fabricated ID's to achieve that aim?