Oz Round Table
The Oz Round Table boards => PayPal => Topic started by: *smee* on July 16, 2009, 08:43:18 PM
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In my opinion there isn't any ,
In case you are wondering .... I have just been pineappled by PayPal !
Enough said .... vent over .... I will deal with it myself
Just warning others ..........
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Smee, Smee, Smee, you can't leave us in suspense like that...! Was it the ROUGH or the SMOOTH end of the pineapple? And what happened? What can we do?
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C'mon Smee...........ya don't get off that easy :)
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Smee...I got the can opener....and the fishing rods ready....
(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv277/area_51_bucket/can_of_worms_ahead.jpg)
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Let me guess...you sent it....and then they did a chargeback? Unauthorised transaction?
Was it Registered?
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Let me guess...you sent it....and then they did a chargeback? Unauthorised transaction?
Was it Registered?
pretty much spot on Roo except the buyer didnt authorise the charge back , the money has gone from his account , paypal sent me an instant payment advice saying ok to send .... next day they debited my account and are holding funds pending investigation.... buyer didnt open a dispute Paypal are just being paypal ... fact is I acted based on their original instruction that payment was good and item ok to send
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So it's a pending investigation Smee. You haven't actally lost the money.
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So it's a pending investigation Smee. You haven't actally lost the money.
Riff yesterday the money was allocated to my paypal account .... today its gone
The pratt from Pay pal said yes its under investigation and I should hear within 10 to 60 days When I pumped him for info he incinuated that the chances of me ever getting the bugs bunny were extremely slim !!!!
The buyer is completley confused !!!!
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Possible scenario...
Buyer has opted to have funds taken from bank account...and has a credit card attached to Paypal...so the payment may look instant...unless there are no funds in his account when Paypal get there.
or...
Buyer is telling porkies
or....
Paypal are having one of their 'let's mess with their minds' days.
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I wouldn't let up until you find out why the transaction is under investigation Smee.
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Possible scenario...
Buyer has opted to have funds taken from bank account...and has a credit card attached to Paypal...so the payment may look instant...unless there are no funds in his account when Paypal get there.
or...
Buyer is telling porkies
or....
Paypal are having one of their 'let's mess with their minds' days.
Roo yes all are possible scenarios except the buyer isnt telling Porkies
and my point is that if Paypal have a dispute or issue with the buyer thats between them and shouldnt affect me
Paypal already sent me an email saying payment had be made and ok to post so I did if the funds arent available to paypal then they shouldnt have sent that message to me !!!
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Has the buyer contacted Paypal yet?
It would be interesting to hear what they tell him... :evil:
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Just as a matter of interest.. last year I had a conversion with an ex-paypal employee in the states..I was told things by him that would make you laugh..be disgusted..be amazed.. and things you would never believe could happen.. he is the one that made me decide not to sign up with paypal..he also wanted my assurance not to disclose anything he told me.. I believe everything he said to be true......nuf said.
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Has the buyer contacted Paypal yet?
It would be interesting to hear what they tell him... :evil:
Roo the buyer is absolutley confused and when I spoke to him tonight I suggested he ring them ... He May but why should he
he has the item as far as he is concerned there isnt an issue
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Has the buyer contacted Paypal yet?
It would be interesting to hear what they tell him... :evil:
Roo the buyer is absolutley confused and when I spoke to him tonight I suggested he ring them ... He May but why should he
he has the item as far as he is concerned there isnt an issue
Yeah!...BUT...he still has your money!
If that happened to me, I'd be straight on the phone to Paypal to help my seller out....or offer to pay by bank deposit.
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From what I gather Roo, Paypal are holding the funds. The buyer didn't get refunded :)
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Yeah yeah...in post #5 you said the money had gone from his account....but do you know for sure?
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Yeah yeah...in post #5 you said the money had gone from his account....but do you know for sure?
Thats immaterial to me Roo ... Paypal said payment all ok ...send item ... I did
so if payment not ok then they can sort out with buyer ... not F.M.U.T.A.
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Ok...no use trying to rely on Paypal to spill the beans...they have this confidentiately clause they fall under when it suits them.
How about asking the buyer to send a screen shot of the actual amount that was dedected from their account? Tell them you need to show it to Paypal to get them to release the funds or something.
If they make a huge fuss....then they must have something to hide?
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Ok...no use trying to rely on Paypal to spill the beans...they have this confidentiately clause they fall under when it suits them.
How about asking the buyer to send a screen shot of the actual amount that was dedected from their account? Tell them you need to show it to Paypal to get them to release the funds or something.
If they make a huge fuss....then they must have something to hide?
I agree Roo to a certain extent .... but my point is paypal should be sorting this out with the buyer ... Paypal already told me funds had cleared it was ok to send now they have changed their minds ... too late item gone ... should be their problem not mine....... they said funds cleared give me the money honey !!!!!!
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Smee, I acknowledge what you're saying.
I agree that PayPal do handle this sort of situation in something less than the best way.
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Smee, I acknowledge what you're saying.
I agree that PayPal do handle this sort of situation in something less than the best way.
So back to my original statement ... The sellers protection is Bollocks !!!
They protect the seller in no way whatsoever , by insisting on registered post they pass the onus onto Aust post for lost items for starters .... so where is the protection provided by paypal ????
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It isn't there in cases like this. This is exactly the sort of situation that I find particularly worrying with PayPal. It leaves the seller vulnerable, without adequate redress and without any way to find out what on earth is going on.
Here, use this vent emoticon...
:vent:
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Ok...no use trying to rely on Paypal to spill the beans...they have this confidentiately clause they fall under when it suits them.
How about asking the buyer to send a screen shot of the actual amount that was dedected from their account? Tell them you need to show it to Paypal to get them to release the funds or something.
If they make a huge fuss....then they must have something to hide?
I agree Roo to a certain extent .... but my point is paypal should be sorting this out with the buyer ... Paypal already told me funds had cleared it was ok to send now they have changed their minds ... too late item gone ... should be their problem not mine....... they said funds cleared give me the money honey !!!!!!
Ina perfect world maybe Smee...but this is Paypal we are talking about...lol
I would really love to know why they actually can't give sellers at least a clue as to why things like this happen.
A simple stock answer of 'Insufficient funds'...or 'Account closed'...or...'Their dog died'....
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Roo, can you imagine some of the wonderful "reasons" Paypal might give if forced to supply a reason?
"The buyer informed us he is dead."
"We thought you looked suspicious as a seller because someone told us you wore dark glasses."
"We were playing pintail-the-donkey to find out which lucky sellers would have their funds frozen, and guess what? - You were one of the "it" team!"
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once again Roo I agree totally , but non of the above are my problem , they are all Paypals problems ... If the guy didnt have sufient funds then dont send the payment notification saying ok to post !!!!
I acted on their advice , they got it wrong, should be their problem ..... different story if item went astray but it hasnt
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once again Roo I agree totally , but non of the above are my problem , they are all Paypals problems ... If the guy didnt have sufient funds then dont send the payment notification saying ok to post !!!!
I acted on their advice , they got it wrong, should be their problem ..... different story if item went astray but it hasnt
Ok...fair enough...don't blame you for seeing it that way.
Have you tried the old 'Release the funds or I go to the Ombudsman' spiel?
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once again Roo I agree totally , but non of the above are my problem , they are all Paypals problems ... If the guy didnt have sufient funds then dont send the payment notification saying ok to post !!!!
I acted on their advice , they got it wrong, should be their problem ..... different story if item went astray but it hasnt
Ok...fair enough...don't blame you for seeing it that way.
Have you tried the old 'Release the funds or I go to the Ombudsman' spiel?
I could do that Roo but to be honest its not the money thats the issue here its the principle .. what if it was a high price item , where does the seller stand ..... alone thats where he stands
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As Redeye always says....You are never alone... 8)
You would have a good case to go to the Ombudsman if needed...and I would... just to P Paypal off! :green:
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As Redeye always says....You are never alone... 8)
You would have a good case to go to the Ombudsman if needed...and I would... just to P Paypal off! :green:
I would be very interested to hear if anyone has ever actually been covered by paypal (not Aust post ) under the sellers protecion policy ... I am talking about actual cases not possible scenarios where people think they may be protected or so called stories of other people being covered
I have serious doubts ....
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Whatever the fears are, the actuality is Paypal has not made a final determination, so calling it 'lost money' is not strictly correct - yet.
I would, however, expect some sort of notification as to the reasoning behind it and I find the lack of that somewhat intolerable.
I don't know how practical it would be - but I'd be inclined to print out the 'OK to post' message and then head for the Ombudsman if things go south.
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Hi Brumby , I dont consider it lost money ,you are the second poster to mention that I think Riff may have made that comment , but I dont recall saying its lost money , but I havent checked back on my post ... but now you mention it I consider paypal have stolen the money from me or at the very least temporarily borrowed it back without permission .....
The fact remains , (in my opinion) they DO NOT PROVIDE THE SELLER WITH 1 IOTA OF PROTECTION ...... ZILCH ...... FAYH!
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Sorry Smee - didn't mean to put words in your mouth, but there were many reactions along those lines.
Whle I have no love for Paypal, they do perform a service that seems to work pretty well most of the time - it's the problem situations that get the 'air time'.
Sorta like traffic - you don't hear about the 56,000 success stories of people travelling down the M4, but you will see graphic detail of a car vs truck event.
Paypal's actions need to be explained. If it's a chargeback situation, then it's understandable - but not helpful to you. Doesn't seem like the seller is really protected - but then the same risk exists for fraud in a B&M store.
If the reason is an internally generated one from Paypal, then I would have expected your 'ok to post' notification should not have been given.
Either way, in my opinion, Paypal need to be more transparent and need to have better processe of arbitration, from what I have heard.
The other thing is, too, that whatever provisions Paypal put in place to address the concerns of a valid complaint can be twisted and used by those who want to scam... and they do. So when a problem arises, the question is: "Who is telling the truth?" ... the person who says 'trust me' the loudest?
This is nothing against you, Smee, not at all - it's just a business perspective that Paypal MUST take.
Paypal is a high wire act - simply because it deals with money and does so on the internet.
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Hi Brumby , appreciate your comments thanks ,
so lets look at it as if it were a B&M business
If I went to Coles and at the check out handed over a card , they swipe through eftpos machine
it says transaction approved , I take goods home ...
under no circumstances would coles get a message on that eftpos machine the next day saying .... Oh sorry the transaction we approved yesterday ... well guess what its not approved now bacd luck.....
In this case Paypal is my eftpos machine I have to take their original "transaction approved" email as gospel ...
Do I not ???????
and if they have prematurely approved the transaction then its their problem not mine !!!!!!
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and if they have prematurely approved transaction then its their problem not mine !!!!!!
You would think so.
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according to their sellers protection policy to be covered I need to pride proof that item has been posted ,
I can do better than that I can prove its been delivered and delivered to the correct person
1. the buyer has left positive feedback
2. The post office have proof of delivery
Still not covered by Paypal non existant sellers protection though !!!!!
I would have been better off if Aust post lost the item , they would have reimbused value of item , not the postage cost but at least I would have something ..... Or better still if the buyer used direct deposit I would have the whole lot ... so based on this how can anyone say paypal is as safe or safer than direct deposit for seller ??????
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(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h211/boogey_man8/PAYPAL.jpg)
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..... Or better still if the buyer used direct deposit I would have the whole lot ... so based on this how can anyone say paypal is as safe or safer than direct deposit for seller ??????
I don't think anyone would argue that direct deposit isn't better for the seller - but the whole payment issue has to balance good & bad buyers versus good & bad sellers. Direct deposit for a bad seller, I think we would all agree, is not going to be in the best interests of the buyer. To be prudent in the discharge of their responsibilities, Paypal need to treat every transaction with an open opinion on its legitimacy. As such, I don't have a problem with precautionary procedures, per se, but I believe the appeals mechanism and acceptable evidence rules need work.
I will acknowledge some fundamental logistic constraints, in that the more forms of evidence you accept, the more work you create in verifying it, collating it and applying it to a case - as well as offering more opportunity for conflicting points to emerge. Also, when you complicate things, scammers will look for - and often find - weaknesses, which are then dutifully exploited.
This does not excuse Paypal from the responsibility of correctly resolving each and every case, just that doing so will require additional resources - overheads that any business would rather do without. This is especially true when performance is measured - the guide to justification of resource levels. Using the old 80/20 rule, those additional resources will only clear (on a count) one quarter of the cases of their counterparts. Without legislative constraints or those that would exist by signing the EFT code (for example), the cost/benefit analysis of those additional resources could fall outside their 'acceptable' limits. Taking up such a position would require some pretty thick-skinned management - but I think there would be many who consider Paypal as having excelled in that area.
In my view, Paypal have - whether actively or passively - allocated the appeals escalation process to the Ombudsman. It is an independent office; doesn't cost Paypal anything unless a case is brought before them; does all the hard work and hands down a resolution - a process which, by the way, would likely have been pursued if the plaintiff wasn't happy with Paypal's decision - no matter how many levels of escalation it may have been through. So why even bother? Paypal would be further encouraged to take this stand with the simple fact that many people would baulk at approaching the Ombudsman, for any of a number of reasons.
I would, therefore, recommend all reasonable steps be taken to resolve the matter with Paypal - which must allow for Paypal defined processes, requirements and timeframes - collecting all evidence on the item, postage, communications, Paypal and so on. (You must be seen to have given the 'offending' party every opportunity to address your complaint.) If that fails to resolve in your favour, then take it to the Paypal escalation service ... the office of the Banking and Financial Services Ombudsman.
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You have a brilliant mind Brumby..........damn I wish I'd said that :)
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Accolades from the Riff-meister! (is that good or bad? ;) )
The only trouble with all that, though, is when you're the one with real money stuck somewhere - especially when you really need it - being clear and analytical with the patience required is kinda hard.
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Please Brumby........take this opportunity to distance yourself from me.....less you are tarred by the Riff brush :pmsl:
(posted in good humour to a realist)
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I is a big boy ... I'll risk it ;)
(Good humour understood - implicitly)
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Brumby, excellent outline. Your comments about the fundamental logistic constraints are well put. Of course, sellers should not be in the position of being so vulnerable to a case-unconnected bot-based decision process when there is a problem, but that's the way PayPal is.
I think sellers who use PayPal have sometimes simply shrugged and accepted that this is how to deal with Paypal - accept that it's bot-based, accept that it won't resolve on a case-by-case investigation. That means they either write off losses or go forward to fight for their dues through a tanglewood of intertwining policies and caveats. Some people have stated they rationalise losses incurred through this process; some people have stated they take the hard route of reporting to the Ombudsman every - single - time; some people have stated they go through the claim processes without thinking about the inconvenience and time-based cost, or simply consider the inconvenience and time-based cost minimal. I must suppose it differs from person to person.
Smee, I hope you do take all the steps - go through that process - even though it's more than tiresome. I would have been sure you have already tried phoning PayPal to express clearly and eloquently that you've provided the proof required of the Seller Protection Policy, yes?
If you've already gone through all those steps, it's obviously time to contact the Ombudsman. I feel for you in this situation. I understand that you're a savvy business guy; you know your onions, so to speak; and what you're really posting about is that there is no satisfactory fast resolution process that protects and releases your funds in the event of a problem like that.
My sense is that you're talking not about what you can do, so much as the fact that the PROCESS appears flawed and that you believe you're being put to the task of the run-around. That, in fact, if you did nothing, you would be out of pocket - that PayPal is requiring YOU to go through a process, rather than Paypal's policy protecting you automatically.
At any rate, that's what I understand from what you've posted...
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Of course, sellers should not be in the position of being so vulnerable to a case-unconnected bot-based decision process when there is a problem, but that's the way PayPal is.....
I think sellers who use PayPal have sometimes simply shrugged and accepted that this is how to deal with Paypal - accept that it's bot-based, accept that it won't resolve on a case-by-case investigation.............
That means they either write off losses or go forward to fight for their dues through a tanglewood of intertwining policies and caveats. Some people have stated they rationalise losses incurred through this process; some people have stated they take the hard route of reporting to the Ombudsman every - single - time; some people have stated they go through the claim processes without thinking about the inconvenience and time-based cost, or simply consider the inconvenience and time-based cost minimal. I must suppose it differs from person to person....
Countessa I find P$P as a seller completely useless and expensive. I sell over 95% of my items on ebay without any P$P involvement . I know I lose sales by making P$P unattractive in very expensive courier only charges, however I am in business to maximize my profit NOT help ebays turnover figures or P$P profits. Most people are reasonable when you explain P$P costs and problems, and offer a viable safe option. Because of ebay lies and spin some people are so brain washed by P$P they walk away as do the professional thieves using P$P as their crowbar.
I do offer post office COD after deposit (covers all ebay post time fees) and it is real cash in my hands, a win win situation.I have had people who have said I could send 4 worthless old paperbacks. Yes I could but I do point out I can do that with P$P and still have signed delivery receipt. Buyer is then in P$P lucky dip, as to who wins in not as described dispute. In both situations feedback is still there. I can as a buyer myself see the enormous amount of trust needed to send money to a stranger based no nothing. The more you use ebay the more holes you find.
I recently had a item not as described disallowed, I purchased a $1400 computer, post was "delayed" as seller "sent to manufacturer for warranty repair" . Seller has my money and now money long gone from sellers P$P account. Item finally arrived with note FROM REPAIRER, date removed that "client has faulty software, ie vile vista corrupted ". Vista is provided in new sale but as medialess, manufacturer / microsoft want $200 for 80 cent dvd to reinstall even though computer has a license sticker. P$P is not the only crook in town.
I supply P$P with workshop repair papers , and local quote to repair. Lots of time lost, P$P claim disallowed . My summation is seller no longer had funds in bank account so as no money to grab, P$P decision is based on least cost option to P$P. I could have done a credit card charge back , messy unlikely win, only $200 and if won, end of that P$P account that Credit card with P$P, and all other P$P accounts in jeopardy though IP links.
I know banking ombudsman available but more work and time and not able to use my $1400. I cheat, I load a pirate XP and problem solved. And crooks Microsoft / IBM do not end up with a bigger profit. And Microsoft wonders why they have no customer loyalty.
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pompeipal
the safest way to lose a family member online
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(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv277/area_51_bucket/burnpaypal.jpg)
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(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv277/area_51_bucket/kilpaypal.jpg)
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(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv277/area_51_bucket/burnpaypal.jpg)
(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv277/area_51_bucket/kilpaypal.jpg)
And we say that we are not just a Paypal / eBay basher site... ?????
While I appreciate that the sentiments of the humour here.... some noobies or visitors may not...
:wine:
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Maybe so Barny...I make no apologies for my posting, I do admit I hate paypus with a passion, they are solely the only reason I don't sell on Obay anymore, they took away from me something I loved to do, I won't hide that and will clearly declare it to anyone..........Barny your opinion is noted and respected as always.... :)
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People who like eBay and PayPal, people who are neutral about eBay and PayPal, people who don't like eBay and PayPal... we seem to have them all.
I like the eBay-that-was; I think PayPal's a good idea, but don't like some aspects of it and prefer other payment methods.
:angel:
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read the story on this link .... more proof that paypal sellers protection does not exist ...
the seller provided ample proof of delivery IMO and still nothing, and of course the postal service wouldnt pay despite the fact that the seller had taken the precaution of paying for insurance as they had proof they had delivered it
http://consumerist.com/2009/12/paypal-abandons-another-scammed-seller.html
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Two things here:
1. I use paypal since 2004. Am happy with it, or otherwise I can't purchase many things from oversea seller. The only time I have to file a dispute was when a seller run away (been hospitalized for too long, replied my email but never make it to send my coins.) Received the refund via paypal without much hassles. I sold a few things over the years, and so far only positive experience.
2. I have had bad experience with USPS and will pay for the expedited mail if USPS is the only choice and I need the item. Expensive but I consider that as the only safe way with USPS. I have had a USPS registered mail reached after 3 months. Few other regular mail (nothing expensive, but few pieces of very cheap notes) went missing. Another came, but with the content stolen (a cheap note cost $5).
I have bought things from various high risk (or less likely people buy things from) countries, including Iran, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, India, Philippines, Indonesia. I have even send cash to Saudi Arabia. All without a single problem. If there is one small thing I want to complain, that is some seller from these countries doesn't know how to pack properly. As long as the item arrive safely, I am OK. Reason being I can't get from other place.
But USPS gave me the most headache, so I stay away from them.
Thanks.
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of course you are happy with it ... you are mainly the buyer .... I actually agree , pay pal is a good and useful tool when all goes well ...
its the non existant seller protection that I have an issue with... well its not even that, I dont care if there isnt any seller protection what I actually obeject too is that they tell lies and say that there is !
I am still yet to find an actual person who has been paid by pay pal under seller protection ... and thats because it doesnt appear to exist !!!!!
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OK
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paymate are (apparently) really good to deal with and offer a better service than paypal, you can include paymate in your listing html and get paid and pay that way, apparently they are also much faster at processing withdrawals to bank, much more serious about claims and protecting seller and consumer and generally better all round... much like pepsi max..
i used to put the html on my listings but stopped when noone elected to use it, i have not had personal experience with them but all reports have been good, however i would not put it past preypal given their market dominance to try to buy them out or partner and ruin it lol, paymate was widely discussed during the "paypal only" dramas and we thought maybe they would be included on ebay checkout, that didnt happen but apparently, again hearsay, they struck a deal with ebay that got them onto ebay usa checkout, not sure if that has happened yet, it was announced but that was a while back
paymate were one of the few who had a genuine case against paypal ebay for damages which were easy to prove and possibly why they got the concessions they did, if indeed those concessions were enacted
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I am still yet to find an actual person who has been paid by pay pal under seller protection ... and thats because it doesnt appear to exist !!!!!
Should not be too difficult to setup a test case here.
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My hand is up.
I got a refund once and I only needed it once, from Paypal. Bought a coin album online and when it arrived, it had definately been used and was filthy dirty. I got a refund, less postage but at least she was out of pocket plus the album. As for her, i couldn't care less as her listing was just lies. ;D
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Lacey, Smee was talking about seller protection - i.e., for the seller, not for the buyer.
I don't like PayPal as a buyer... Think about this. If I pay by card and the item either doesn't arrive or it's a fake or completely damaged, and the seller does not refund me (in full) or send me another item as a replacement, I have protection under consumer legislation in Australia. I don't NEED PayPal's buyer protection because I can a) have a chargeback on my card to receive a FULL refund of the amount (including postage), or b) go to Small Claims, report the seller under the TPA, etc.
There is a loophole, though: if the seller's business goes into receivership and I haven't received a refund (or the purchased item), I would be an "unsecured creditor". That is always dicey. My best bet in that case is to ensure I've paid by card, and to institute a chargeback on the grounds of "haven't received" asap (before the receivership status is confirmed), before there is no money at all in the seller's business account or that account is frozen.
BEST OF ALL: Don't pay until the item is ready to pick up, and inspect it before you hand over the payment.
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Lacey thats great but that is buyer protection ... I am talking about SELLER protection.. the buyer is always protected and has to prove nothing really provided claim is lodged in time
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oh the Countes was too quick for me
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:blush: Sorry but, be warned, I often read things wrong as you will get used to. is there a name for this condition,lol. :musing: not sure.
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:blush: Sorry but, be warned, I often read things wrong as you will get used to. is there a name for this condition,lol. :musing: not sure.
Mad cow disease ????? :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
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dislexmiopiousdemtianumbatious - don't try and google it !!!!!!!!!!! ;D
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I am talking about SELLER protection.. the buyer is always protected and has to prove nothing really provided claim is lodged in time
Sorry I am off topic.
Since there is no seller protection, can I use it against the dodgy seller on ebay?
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Dodgy sellers probably have "dodges" in place to avoid punitive action.
They're cunning, some of them...
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Sorry I don't understand.
In a way, paypal seller protection does work for these people. Why can't it work for all sellers?
Now, can I simply file a dispute with paypal for refund since I need not prove anything? Will ebay now tell me they don't have the expertise in coins to verify my claim?
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Now, can I simply file a dispute with paypal for refund since I need not prove anything?
From all reports, you shouldn't have a problem. Just lodge a dispute, escalate to a claim and don't back down. (Personally, I couldn't do it...)
Will ebay now tell me they don't have the expertise in coins to verify my claim?
They won't bother. They'll stay out of it and Paypal will just pay the claim (IF the seller still has finds with them, that is!)
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They won't bother. They'll stay out of it and Paypal will just pay the claim (IF the seller still has finds with them, that is!)
Quite different from what I understand thus far.
Consider this case:
Seller mis-described a coin (take a cleaned coin, but not mentioned in description) and sent by registered mail. When buyer lodge a report, seller is able to prove he sent out the coin, and paypal is happy. They don't have the expert and don't border about the mis-described item. No refund to the buyer.
Take another case, you buy something say cost you $1000. Seller sent out an empty envelope by registered mail. Again, seller is able to produce the proof, and paypal is happy. Again no refund to you.
In either case, who did paypal protect? Buyer or seller? Or worst, none, as paypal will freeze the seller account and take the money?
I am curious.
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The seller has protection in this case against a claim of INR (Item Not Received).
The seller does not have protection against SNAD (Significantly Not As Described).
If the buyer receives an empty package, he's honestly better off claiming SNAD rather than INR, because the seller can prove he sent something! So the buyer's alternative might be to lodge a SNAD claim and state:
"I paid for a collectable coin, and received only an empty package. I did not buy an empty package. This is deliberate fraud and I intend to initiate charges of criminal fraud against this seller as well. I want a full refund immediately."
... then it's almost certain that PayPal will instruct the buyer to send back "the item" to the seller. The buyer must do so by registered mail. It will make no difference whether or not the seller accepts the item; you don't have to have proof of delivery, only proof of its having been sent (if you're in Australia, that is, because of Australian laws). The registered post yellow form will provide that proof. PayPal will take the money from the seller upon being faxed a copy of the yellow form (well, not immediately. PayPal don't ever give back money "immediately". It might take a month or so of "investigations").
If the buyer describes the problem as being a "fake coin", it's more problematic. Then it becomes a case of "your word against his". It's better to examine the coin in the light of the description and image on the listing, and see if there's a discrepancy. Then put in a claim that justly describes the problem as "SNAD". Don't say it's a fake coin; just say it's not the same coin that was described in the listing (which will be true, if the coin in the listing is of a genuine coin).
It's all in the wording.
eBay don't know quite how to handle claims of fakes. But when it's SNAD items, the procedure is more straightforward.
This won't help if the description of the listing has been so vague that it is actually meaningless, and if the image is actually of the coin you receive. I would never suggest anyone lie about the coin they received; I just hope people have legitimate grounds about the description and/or image being WRONG so that the claim can be straightforward.
Again, the coin will need to be sent back by registered post, but that's better than being defrauded by a fake coin.
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What Countessa said...
The rules are set up for the most simplistic of situations. Real life is rarely so neat.
The 'proof' of sending or delivery is also next to useless. As said above, it only proves something was sent. It could be the coin you wanted, a reject pet rock or an empty box - there's no impartial authority to confirm the actual contents of the package.
It should also be noted that this is the same for return of goods as much as it is for the original shipping.
An example of how curious this can become is one episode where a buyer won a laptop, but when received, it had problems that were aparently not mentioned in the listing. After failing to find satisfaction with the seller, the buyer had the laptop repaired and returned the faulty parts to the seller under a SNAD claim. The refund paid for the repairs with a bit left over. So the buyer ended up with a functional laptop with a little extra cash for his trouble. The seller wasn't happy but the buyer didn't care because of the seller's attitude.
But all the paperwork that Paypal required was quite in order...
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The 'proof' of sending or delivery is also next to useless. As said above, it only proves something was sent. It could be the coin you wanted, a reject pet rock or an empty box - there's no impartial authority to confirm the actual contents of the package
In all honesty no one can prove this failing Aust Post x-raying every package and every package being handed over the counter ... If you start worrying about this happening to you then Im sorry but online buying isnt for you ... and quite frankly I get sick of hearing of this possibility .... each day thousands of parcels get sent through Aust Post for eBay transactions and the amount of times an empty package has been sent would be minute in context to say the least..... and if it does well Countess has explained the best way to try and get your money back... there are a couple of other possibilities...... but really lets get real for the odd occassion this may occur the story of the possibility gets tossed around a bit too frequently IMO .... once again I will ask the question has anyone here actually ever received an empty package .... ever ..... once again I dont mean you heard a story about a mate of a mate that new a girl that bought something and received an empty package , I mean has this ever happened to you ?????? between us we would have had thousands of online transactions ... I would bet the number of instances if any of this occuring to us collectively could be counted on one hand ....
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hi All
firstly to smee - i received an empty envelope from the USA that had been opened and resealed by customs. The coin was worth $40 and the action required against customs and australia post was simply not worth the hassle and headaches. The seller was never questioned as we have a good buying / selling relationship and he said he sent it - that is good enough for me.
secondly - items not as described is a tricky one. Ebay and paypal do not generally have the expertise to determine if an item is not what it should be. They are only taking the word of the buyer and seller in this scenario. My experience from coin friends is that ebay will generally not act on NAD if the person received something remotely resembling the coin listed. Sets and or bulk will hardly ever go in favor of buyer for this reason. It is simply impossible to photograph a 1000 coins individually and send every item exactly as described. If the buyer gets a 1000 junk coins against a listing that says 1000 excellent coins it won't stand up on NAD. Ebay have not got the experts to determine this nor have paypal.
best bet with coins is to purchase small and set up a relationship with a seller. This could be applied to all collectables
;D
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firstly to smee - i received an empty envelope from the USA that had been opened and resealed by customs
Fair enough Wyzeguy but as you stated this was not a case of the seller sending an empty envelope , it was a matter of Customs not resealing it correctly ...... if I have read your post correctly ? it was not a deliberate act of cheating you out of your item
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hi smee - yes I should have made that clearer. It appeared it went missing at customs, definitely not the sellers fault.
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Hi all,
I once received an empty envelope from USA. I am not too sure if the envelope been opened and resealed. If it is, the work is too neat for my poor eyes. Anyway, that is a $5 worth of banknote and sent by regular mail. I ended up with nothing. ;D
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My dear friend Smee...
There is a way to determine the contents of a package - via a third party.
While this is impractical for the original shipping of items, I have experienced this exact process on the return of an item - through BidPay.
I had to forward the item to them and they then took up the issue with the seller.
I got my $120 back - but the trackable postage (required by BidPay) worked out at about $45, since international registered post was the cheapest option.
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Yes packages do get sent with rubbish in them. I had a seller sell me rubbish that required three new parts to get working as advertised some $100 cost plus time worth about $100. Seller only sent me $50. I sent back faulty parts I had kept in case needed, to seller $10 registered post. Paypal then paid me original $300 I had paid crooked seller. Some times you do win.
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PAYPAL seller protection is a corn maze. The business rules around the protection program have more holes than swiss cheese. I have documented them and am building a web site, www.safe-pal.com that will allow sellers to input the details of the transaction and find out exactly what their coverage level is, how to maintain complaince with the seller protection program, look for obvious signs of fraud that Paypal can't even discover on their own.
As a large volume seller, I have had so many transactions go bad, where I lost merchandise and money, because of the flaws in the Paypal fraud detection software and the holes in the seller protection program.
It got so bad one Decembe, I was calling Payapl to tell them This transaction was fraudulent, and that one, and the other one, and one by one they began reversing transactions.
But what do you expect from a company who last year purchased their fraud detection software from a chinese company!? This has got to be the most stupid thing any one company has ever done. Why not give the wolves badges to guard the hen house?
I found a security flaw (many actually) that allows fraud to take place through paypal undetected. As a software quality assurance analyst and developer, it took me about a month to nail down the procedure to defraud a seller using these gaps in security.
Thus safe-pal.com was born but is still under development. It will be a free service available to sellers who will want an independent third party fraud detection system that surpasses the crappy and irresponsible way that Paypal handles fraud. As well as automate the business rules surrounding the PP seller protection plan.
I saved myself ... thousands of dollars in lost money and merchandise once I was able to identify the security gaps in the PP software. Its sad when you have to call them and tell them that they missed a fraudulent transaction and then 5 minutes later watch as transaction after another reverses before your eyes.
I feel like I'm doing a better job than they are at their own business.
Now Paypal is no longer going to be the preferred method of payment on Ebay. Ebay is opening the door to three other forms of payment processing services.
But I've got Paypal by the balls. Once I'm up and running, the true statistics about how they have failed to detect fraud (IP and geographic opposition is NOT fraud detection) should become known.
Keep your fingers crossed. that box of dog shite I sent to Ebay is about to hit the fan.
Mike
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Interesting background on the software...
Did they buy it off eBay?
Seems like it's a possibility.
Welcome to the OZRT, Mike - Your background and experience is most interesting and I, for one, am quite interested to follow your efforts.
I have little doubt that your contributions and participation on this forum will be welcomed by all.
Welcome!
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First of all, Thank you for having me. I have become a fraud expert because I have lost tens of thousands of dollars in both merchandise and in money (chargebacks, bogus INR disputes, etc)
I have found a method that works for me. I have a local police offider who works with me to file a criminal complaint against the buyer when I discover he has defrauded me. For example, a buyer in Canada requested an expensive Ipod. 10 days later he files an INR dispute. I had tracking but it did not show signature delivery. So I filed a report, and then my local police sent it to his local police in Vancouver, Canada.
I also did a google search on his email address. If a scammer is stupid and inexperience, he will create a fake ebay account but use his own paypal account. That primary address can be searched. I found he deleted his facebook page but I was able to retrieve a copy of it through google which caches these web pages for months.
I then emailed his friends through facebook and asked them to pressure him into dropping the dispute. I also found his craigslist ads selling the merchandise he was stealing from buyers. Once he found out I was onto him, he deleted everything, all of his craigslist postings, but I was able to recover them thanks to google cache. His listings contained his real phone number (his ebay account contained completely fake information). I called him at home and he was surprised to hear from me. I told him that I had filed a police report and that the vancouver police would be investigating him. If he dropped the dispute and returned my money I would cease to press charges.
THe next day he refunded me $460 USD. but this is an arduous and time consuming task. I was able to recover several thousand. In december alone I lost about 20,000 USD. Primarily because of Paypal's inept fraud detection software.
Why would a transaction be permitted and Paypal recommend "shipping" when the ebay contact info is completely different than the Paypal contact info? I discovered that bug by using GarageSale, which uses the ebay API to determine the shipping address, while their other product, GaragePAY uses the Paypal API to show the shipping addresss.
If there is a discrepency between the two, its a sure bet its a frauid. Why does Ebay allow this? The fact that there is a big discrepancy, should raise red flags all over the place.
Thats just one of the things that I look for (in automation on my fraud detection engine). My engine will contain many, many features and keep a list of paypal Seller Protection rules in a database so that sellers will know exactly what their risk is based on the above factor as well as others.
It just really angers me that paypal suggested that I ship products when the PP accounts were "phished" by people in other countries. How can they not catch this, but i can? What does this say about this this company?
I have no faith or trust in them at all.
Mike
Surf-Inside
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Thats just one of the things that I look for (in automation on my fraud detection engine). My engine will contain many, many features and keep a list of paypal Seller Protection rules in a database so that sellers will know exactly what their risk is based on the above factor as well as others.
Just make sure you are protected - because you will become Public Enemy Number 1 and I don't say that lightly
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Mike, it sounds as though you're handling the problems very intelligently - and taking the only actions you can, given PayPal's and eBay's lack of what I would consider REAL fraud detection and protection.
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Well, to be perfectly honest, our intention is to eventually sell the software to Paypal. But as it is, they wouldn't buy it because it simplifies the corn maze of policy that is inherent in their existing protection program. It exposes the weaknesses. Nobody likes to be told their baby is ugly and thats exactly what Safe-Pal will do.
But the fraud detection engine might be something that we can market and then sell to Paypal. That is our goal. To help consumers, but then also to sell the engine to the evil empire. If I can detect fraud better than they can, heck, I would have sold them that information for a lot less than 169 million dollars.
But to heck with them, I will never join the evil empire. I shall and always will be a rebel fighter! :) Looking for that gap that explodes the death star and ends an era of fraud and arrogance at their own wealth, gained illegally, in my opinion.
Mike
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I can envisage it... Safe-Pal doing battle with the dark-visaged PayPal clothed in a clunky metallic outfit, and then from PayPal's visor comes the devastating statement: "Safe-Pal... I am your father."
At least we know Darth Vader didn't win.