Oz Round Table

The Oz Round Table boards => The Round Table => Topic started by: Philip.Cohen on October 24, 2009, 02:25:06 PM

Title: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on October 24, 2009, 02:25:06 PM

“Secrets of Success on eBay”
How two top sellers make hay with high-priced items

http://www.auctionbytes.com/forum/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=6502763

These would be two beautiful success stories if only they both were not habitual shill bidders.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on October 24, 2009, 02:42:02 PM

Phil , why would a shill bidder put an offer on a best offer item of his own ??????
now that just doesnt make any sense whatsoever 

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on October 24, 2009, 02:54:26 PM

For the same reason that some of the smarter shill sellers will use multiple shill IDs on the same auction. It's all about auction psychology: to make it look like the items you are selling are desirable and in demand and good value at that price. If the "buyer" ultimately does not pay then there is no FVF paid; and watchers get the impression that your stuff is moving ...

Think about it, you're looking at an item, it's near the end of the auction, but no one else is interested; you start to think maybe it's not good value; and the opposite case: many (usually nominal bids), or the seller's other items appear to be selling very successfully ...

If nothing else the auctioneer at a traditional goods and chattels auction will keep the activity moving so fast you may think that everything is being sold even when it's not ... There are a lot of professional sellers on eBay who understand the psychology of the auction very well; they may well buy a lot of their own stuff at times, but they will do better than the other seller selling the same stuff without any artificial devices.

But regardless of the purpose, even if only to get the bidding started, shill bidding is still fraud.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on October 24, 2009, 02:55:47 PM

"Kill Shill"

A Quentin Tarantino Movie

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on October 24, 2009, 03:02:21 PM

Phil , I am sorry , a lot of the stuff you say makes sense , but your answer regarding best offer is in my opinion .... bollocks ..... no one else other than the offerer or the seller can see the offer , it in no way increases the potential sale price as the seller is not obliged to sell to the highest offer and as I said potential offerers have no idea what any previous offers if any were 

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on October 24, 2009, 03:10:19 PM

Quote from: smee on October 24, 2009, 03:02:21 PM

Phil , I am sorry , a lot of the stuff you say makes sense , but your answer regarding best offer is in my opinion .... bollocks ..... no one else other than the offerer or the seller can see the offer , it in no way increases the potential sale price as the seller is not obliged to sell to the highest offer and as I said potential offerers have no idea what any previous offers if any were 

"No one else can see ..." And that is another problem with such sales format: we simply have no way of knowing post sale if the sale is genuine or not. I did not say it was the case. I suggested that it was a possibility. It's all to do with making watchers believe that your stuff is moving. What would you think of a very large listing of "Best Offers" with a zero success rate? The professional seller has to try to keep up the excitement on all his sales formats.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on October 24, 2009, 03:19:09 PM

Nope sorry Phil you are grasping at straws to enhance your arguement , there is absolutley no benefit in a seller making an offer on his own best offer item , for a guy who appears to do his homework Im afraid you dont appear to have a very good grasp on how best offer works on ebay ... and in my opinion by you making such suggestions detracts from the good work and research you have done on shill bidding IMO 

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on October 24, 2009, 04:36:57 PM

Quote from: smee on October 24, 2009, 03:19:09 PM

Nope sorry Phil you are grasping at straws to enhance your arguement , there is absolutley no benefit in a seller making an offer on his own best offer item ,

Smee I think you need to do some experimation on how best MIS match search works. Ebay quotes watchers, keywords and DSR's as the main critera to climb up search order. And hide things like clearance rate, for you that itam numbers of sales, and relisting same auction. Clearance rate and sales are 90% of best MIS match "points". The rest is a smoke screen. Top rated seller is about clearance rate for instance.

If you as a seller relist an item with sales, it will jump to head of best MIS match search. Sales means fees for ebay all they care about is fees. listing fees , final value fees and Paypal fees. So a few "sales" that cost you nothing as you either mutually agree not to complete, or not paid with yourself or accomplice shill buyer.

Your items thus moved up search order and move likely to get real sales, a repeating cycle. Not as important here in Australia where most searches well worded, will bring up a page or two. In USA or Europe, large markets best worded search brings up 10 or 20 pages. No sales in page 18.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: cueperkins on October 24, 2009, 04:47:27 PM

Shyer...I haven't looked into this whole scenario, but from a buyers perspective....I HATE BEST MATCH.....whose best match?...certainly not mine....I don't enjoy having every conceivable unrelated piece of crap thrown at me when I'm searching for something specific.....So, I don't even go there much anymore...just when I can't find something in particular.  I had a look in a few old favourites in terms of categories the other day, and there was so much unrelated garbage in each category it was painful to wade through.  I did a search...more unmitigated bullshit to wade through...it's painful actually.  I keep having to shave down the search just to rid myself of the garbage that ebay has decided I need to have thrown at me.

For instance, in order to spam buyers, Sellers will, in the Vintage/Antique Jewellery section....say Vintage Esq?...and Vintage Style, Vintage look.....anything to get themselves into searches...they've made it so cut throat on ebay these days, it breeds it's own corruption by the minute...I wouldn't be surprised what some sellers will do to get their product noticed or promoted.

Ebay was once fun...now it's stressful...simple really..

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on October 24, 2009, 04:49:08 PM

Shyer I am FULLY aware of how best match search works and all my listings are on page 1 as I have done my research .... and I reiterate to suggest that someone makes an offer on their own best offer listing is really drawing a long bow . As I stated comments like that only detract from all the good work done in identifying actual shill bidders .... if you have to make things up to strengthen your arguement then in my opinion there is a fair chance that there is also some 'creative bending' of facts in original arguement also ......
Next you guys will be telling me that most sellers buy their own BINS as well ...... turn it up !!!!!

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Bazza on October 24, 2009, 04:55:26 PM

Hello folks. I agree with smee on this. Its not enough to convict a seller on.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on October 24, 2009, 07:21:44 PM

Smee,

Can I say it again. I did not say that it did happen, I simply hypothesised that it could happen.

I spent six years as a partner in an auction business: I do have some understanding of the mechanics and the psychology involved in English auctions.

Whether or not you accept the possibility of a vendor accepting his own highest “Best Offer,” for the reason I have already stated, the point I would make is that you have absolutely no way of knowing one way or the other.

No information (other than the sale price) is supplied post sale. And eBay undoubtedly planned it so. And, if the buyer “does not pay” then the seller can avoid any further fee, as will be undoubtedly the case with many of BeckerTime’s obviously shill-bought auctions.

After all, Best Offer is little different to an auction (you make an offer). The big difference is that afterwards there is total opacity. No details for others to ascertain the veracity of the transaction.

Indeed all bidding information except for the Current Bid and number of bids has recently been removed from the primary View Item page. Why do you think eBay would do that, other than to further obscure matters? They have even hidden away the notice that an auction is a “private listing” at the very bottom of the page!

You may well say that we are not entitled to know. And I would say that that is now the problem with eBay’s auctions, it takes a lot of work to ferret out the sophisticated shills and that undoubtedly also was the intention of eBay’s further masking of bidder IDs.

The total lack of transparency, that eBay appears to prefers, breeds untoward activity.

I suppose the next thing you will be saying is that you can see no other evidence that either BeckerTime or QuickShipElectronics are, as I claim, rampant, habitual, shill bidders.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Bazza on October 24, 2009, 07:48:36 PM

Philip, how much do you know about bidders in any auction (online or other)? A heck of a lot less than ebay shows you.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on October 24, 2009, 07:51:11 PM

Bazza,

Sorry, I have no idea what your statement means: "A heck of a lot less than ebay shows you."?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Bazza on October 24, 2009, 07:56:11 PM

Philip, if I go to an auction house I have absolutely no idea who I'm bidding against. I don't know anything about their bidding history, so I just bid and hope for the best. How is that any better than ebays system? Or should all auctions be outlawed?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on October 24, 2009, 08:39:08 PM

Bazza,

Do you really think that eBay could have gotten to where it is today if it had been run the way many unscrupulous auctioneers run auctions, with all their devious tricks? No way. The onlline auction system requires an amount of transparancy that gives bidders confidence and that eBay used to have; it was never perfect: shills have always been about; but it is less transparent now than it ever was, and it can be demonstrated that the professional shill bidding sellers are now running rampant. If you have no appreciation of that fact then I must assume that you are predominantly a seller.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tinker on October 24, 2009, 08:58:35 PM

Hello.

I'm sorry but I really don't think this holds water.

Smee, I have to agree.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tinker on October 24, 2009, 09:05:18 PM

Sorry but as a Power Seller I would never jeopardise my business for the simple sake of "best matched" everyone knows no one uses it anyway.

As a buyer as well, I never use that silly search, ever.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tinker on October 24, 2009, 09:15:22 PM

Philip.Cohen

May I ask if you sell on eBay?

If so, what option do you take, BIN or auction?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on October 24, 2009, 09:25:55 PM

Phil once again your statement doesnt make sense , you say a best offer is similar to an auction .... it isnt !!!!it is a buy it now at a negotiated price . now I realise that in your original statement you didnt say it did happen and thats my point you threw in some codswallop to try and enhance your point but in fact you detracted from it . Phil I have no doubt whatsoever that shill bidding does occur unfortunatley you look that hard for it you appear tunnel vision and you come across as if every seller either shill bids or uses some other scullduggery to obtain a false price, As I have stated a lot of what you have said in the past about shill bidding makes sense but this doesnt in my eyes make you an expert in every facet of selling on ebay and in my opinion and having read the posts here by most other peoples opinions here  you are ill informed on best offer selling so dont treat me and others as imbociles

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tinker on October 24, 2009, 09:40:00 PM

Ha...looks like I'm talking to myself. Well, I just want to add this:
I put an absentee bid via internet at my local auction house each week, the auction House could easily stitch me up, although if I want to participate I have to trust they are abiding by their own policies, don't I? If I am feeling suss I didn't involve myself.

Last auction, I was the higher bidder on a nice little lot of antique gold jewelery...for $25!!! even the auction house owner was staggered when I collected it, because she is familiar with me she laughed and said I must of missed bidding on that one.

I think bidding is as such that you have to lay down what your ready to pay and no more if it goes over that then so be it...that squashes shillbidding then. right?

I don't see the issue?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on October 24, 2009, 10:30:32 PM

Tinker,

I am predominantly a buyer on eBay and I prefer the fun of auctions; frankly, if I wanted to buy at fixed price I would go to Amazon.

And isn’t it nice that you have been involved with a scrupulous auctioneer; too bad the same cannot be said of eBay, the auctioneer.

Smee,

Maybe I missed something on "Best Offer" but it is best offer; in other words the seller does not necessarily have to accept or reject the first offer that is made; someone else can make a better offer; and then someone else can make an even better offer; up until the end time of the listing if an offer is not accepted beforehand; sounds something like a form of “reserved” auction to me; if it is a “BIN or Best Offer” then it is certainly somewhat similar to an auction with a BIN option attached thereto—but with a complete lack of any transparency.

But, maybe I got it wrong as I have only bought one item that way and that was a while ago on a multiple item auction (eBay has now done away with multiple item auctions too; they apparently now want a listing fee for every individual item listed; things are getting desperate on the Road to San Jose).

And, please don't put words in my mouth: I never suggested that you were an imbocile [sic]; I hypothesised that you may be (predominantly) a seller. I don’t think that sellers are necessarily imbeciles, are they? Would I be right in presuming that you are predominantly a seller? ---

You still have not answered my previous question. Do you or do you not believe that it has been demonstrated that BeckerTime and QuickShipElectronics most probably are shill bidders?

---

Moderated

---

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on October 24, 2009, 10:45:22 PM

Phil , I havent answered your question because once I saw the tripe you wrote about the seller probably making offers on his own items I lost interest in what you were saying , as I say by making up scenarios you did not enhance your story with me you lot all creditbility , and its none of your business why I post here instead of on Ebay forums !!!! just who do you think you are coming out with that line???? and as a matter of fact I sell and I buy and as I have already stated I do agree that there is some shill bidding on ebay but Phil ease up .... not every seller shill bids and not every item gets shill bidded on .... One day when I am not feeling so pissed off with your self importance attitude I will take the time to explain why it can actually be detrimental to a seller to shill bid , but you are so GD paranoid about and tunnell vision I doubt you would take the time to even considetr that a possibility ... Now it summary Phil all I am saying is dont do yourself a diservice by making up BS theories ... stick to posting the facts that you are able to substantiate by your research and more people might be simpathetic to your cause .... you are obsesssed and its getting to the point where you fantasise !!!!  

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tinker on October 25, 2009, 07:28:32 AM

Look, all I have to add to this thread is this: Your Talking Rubbish Philip.Cohen.

Smee, I agree with your argument.

Why anyone would offer themselves a best offer is beyond me, it makes no sense what so ever, not now, not ever. It’s like calling myself on my phone to see if I'm home.

Philip sorry to say but ***.

Take your argument to the eBay discussion forums; I would be interested to see what others think of your theory.

---

Edited - profanity or abuse removed by moderator

---

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: cueperkins on October 25, 2009, 08:09:31 AM

Just wondering if calling the OP names and implying that he's talking rubbish, is helping this debate in any way?......

Phil.....Shill Bidding as we've agreed previously, is insidious...not obvious, and much of the time, you can only really demonstrate a pattern that may or may not fit, the pattern of shill bidding.  I agree with you that Ebay have the power, but not the willingness to police it but as you know, that would entail verification of all sellers and it would put a stop to any shilling ID's being invented for that purpose only. 

They could limit members to a buyer/seller/posting ID only, unless that member applies for more than one ID and states their reasons....YES, they could do a lot to clean up fraud but as a precedent study concluded in 2006, they have no incentive to do so, because they make a profit out of the various illegal antics sellers get up to.  (Not talking about all sellers OK? in fact I'd say it's a minority, not the majority).

Verification would also automatically provide consumers with redress against unscrupulous sellers, and blatant rip off sellers, who sign up, rip off hundreds of people and then disappear....only to surface again under yet another anonymous unverified ebay ID. (See Qld online auction fraud stats for 2007).

So.....I agree with your assertion that Ebay could do a lot to mitigate proactively, but they don't even give a toss about reactive mitigation do they?  in other words, even when they are aware of it, they still don't do anything to prevent or reduce fraud on ebay.

I have to admit...this particular debate is a complicated subject...and many here have never actually used Best Offer, so it's hard to follow the debate.  Perhaps explain some of these things, first and then hypothesize further?  e.g. What is best offer and how does it work?  (for the numpties).  Also, is there any studies on 'Auction Behaviour' or Shill Bidding in the traditional Auction marketplace that might set a baseline for further discussion? 

 In the meantime people, is there any real need for name calling ?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on October 25, 2009, 09:01:46 AM

Quote from: smee on October 24, 2009, 04:49:08 PM

Next you guys will be telling me that most sellers buy their own BINS as well ...... turn it up !!!!!

YES smee that is what happened to me, while I was learning about mis match.  I had nearly 50 watchers on a multiple bin of 8 clearance items and stuck in middle of best mis match search after 5 days . 1 item sold elsewhere and one in testing was faulty. I got friends to "buy " 2 items so if 8 buyers did bid ,first 6 I had item to sell , last 2 too late.

Soon as friends bought listing shot to top of 1st Page ( using featured plus as well) watchers within a day was over 70 and 4 sales before listing ended. When I relisted with 3 items still had watchers on compleated ad. New ad started at top of 1st page.

Clearence rate is most important metric in my catagory in best mismatch. In other catagories I do not know. I have done about 10 experiments and that is MY results. Also sales make people think they must bid or possiably misout.

Also can we keep to topic and not act like children, and throw personal insults. If some one has different experiences and conclusions to yours.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tinker on October 25, 2009, 10:49:51 AM

ummm...it is becoming clear to me Cupie that you have an issue with the way I am posting...If you have a look at my post I didn't call Phil a name, I said he is talking rubbish and if that is what I think he's statement is, why do I have to pretend it's not?

I was told that this forum was an even playing ground for all posters????

You have had a go at me twice now, why?

I will ask you kindly to refrain from this please.

Can someone tell me who are the moderators and who do I talk to if I have an issue please?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *CountessA* on October 25, 2009, 10:59:18 AM

Philip, thanks for what you've been posting. While I don't necessarily agree with your scenarios in all cases, you have the right to express what you've been saying, and it could prove fruitful to explore Best Offer.

Smee, you have the experience to say making Best Offers to oneself is unlikely, and you can't see the point in it.

Shyer, you have experience in seeing your listing placement affected positively by BINs made by friends.

This gives an interesting new perspective on the whole thing. It's certainly worth exploring.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on October 25, 2009, 11:13:13 AM

Quote from: shyer on October 25, 2009, 09:01:46 AM

Also can we keep to topic and not act like children, and throw personal insults. If some one has different experiences and conclusions to yours.

PS I appologise baddly worded what I meant to say .
Was "Also can we ALL keep to ....... "

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on October 25, 2009, 11:21:06 AM

Shyer ... Just to let you know I am not ignoring your post ... its just probably best I dont respond at the moment ... but let me just say one thing please , read back through what you have posted about buying your own listings .... do the maths and give yourself an uppercut and if you get back up give yourself another and keep going until penny drops  or you will end up going broke . 

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Yibida* on October 25, 2009, 11:31:23 AM

Quote from: tinker on October 25, 2009, 10:49:51 AM

ummm...it is becoming clear to me Cupie that you have an issue with the way I am posting...If you have a look at my post I didn't call Phil a name, I said he is talking rubbish and if that is what I think he's statement is, why do I have to pretend it's not?

I was told that this forum was an even playing ground for all posters????

You have had a go at me twice now, why?

I will ask you kindly to refrain from this please.

Can someone tell me who are the moderators and who do I talk to if I have an issue please?

Hi tinker... If you would like to contact someone regarding any concerns you have about this site send a message to Admin = countessa... though the private message system...countessa IS the final word.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on October 25, 2009, 11:36:09 AM

What Yib said.


(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/eBay%20nasty%20pix-gifs/4rx4x3.gif)

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *CountessA* on October 25, 2009, 11:38:19 AM

The issue of "watchers" on those items, Shyer... well, it's not what you think. Read this topic: http://www.ozroundtable.com/index.php?topic=998.0

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on October 25, 2009, 11:44:59 AM

Quote from: smee on October 25, 2009, 11:21:06 AM

do the maths and give yourself an uppercut and if you get back up give yourself another and keep going until penny drops  or you will end up going broke . 

No Smee I am not going broke if I file mutually cancel sale with friends "sales", I get my final value fees back. I can get excellent feedback and DSRs , FOR ZERO EXTRA COSTS. My listing fee is the same if I sell zero or 100 items.

Here is one place ebay admits impressions to sales ratio is a factor. Near bottom of page.

http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/searchstanding.html (http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/searchstanding.html)

Quote

Listing performance score for fixed price items: Relevance is important for fixed price listings. Fixed price listings have a performance score based on the listing's recent sales in relation to the number of recent impressions it received. The performance score is a more accurate measure of how buyers perceive a listing than recent sales alone.

I find all other metrics are +1 / 0 / -1 points. Listing performance score I find is +10 to -10 points in my two main catagories. Ebay does talk about differences in catagories. Ie cars would have often have averages of 100 impressions or more for each sale. While Packing tape might show on average 3 impressions for each sale.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on October 25, 2009, 11:53:35 AM

Shyer ... oh whats the point ..... if you are here to bait me ... dont go there ... please do your home work including the upper cuts ....

If in fact you are genuinely believing what you have suggested in your previous posts I am more than happy to help you later in the week when I have calmed down from reading the absolute piffle posted by some in this thread .

If you are just taking the piss then please refrain because I can fight fire with fire also and my fire will be substantiated by facts

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on October 25, 2009, 11:57:34 AM

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/eBay%20nasty%20pix-gifs/buyerseller2.gif)

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Yibida* on October 25, 2009, 11:59:57 AM

Quote from: tellomon on October 25, 2009, 11:57:34 AM

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/eBay%20nasty%20pix-gifs/buyerseller2.gif)

Love it !..Gold..LOLOL

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on October 25, 2009, 12:02:16 PM

Timing is everything.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: HellWest'nCrooked on October 25, 2009, 12:13:04 PM

Well done Tello.....didn't know you had it in ya!! :roflmao:

Yibs...are you having trouble again...where on earth has the green man gone now??

 :-* :-* :-* :-* to Smee and everyone (before I get into trouble)

Westie :ivanhoe:

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on October 25, 2009, 12:46:53 PM

200

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on October 25, 2009, 12:57:47 PM

tinker: all that serious stuff is bollacks. You just happened to pop in when it all got sparked up.

I suggest ya chill and hang out with me, and maybe yib, cuz we get away with everything, and that's like "elite" or some shite like that.

Alone here, yer lookin' a tad vulnerable. Being a Noob izzint a plus either.

Trust me. I'm an American.

:motorbikeride:

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Roo on October 25, 2009, 12:59:24 PM

Tinker....do I know you from somewhere? :)

You sound....oddly familiar??

Play nice now... ;)

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on October 25, 2009, 01:03:11 PM

'scuuze me roo, but it seems to me that tinker is getting beat up straight out of the chute & it duzzint look good.

I feel for her. I may be even Championing for her, I dunno.....

Overall, this joint is heating up, and you know what that can do......(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/eBay%20nasty%20pix-gifs/thSlaphappy.gif)(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/boom.gif)

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Roo on October 25, 2009, 01:06:54 PM

You know I luvs ya Tello...but I think Tinker isn't as 'new' as she makes out to be...that's all.... :saint:

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on October 25, 2009, 01:08:12 PM

Ok, so I'm infatuated.

Is that so wrong?   ;D

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: cueperkins on October 25, 2009, 01:11:09 PM

Is Infatuation Blind?.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on October 25, 2009, 01:13:27 PM

Is thread hijacking kosher?

Oh, this just in: I "get it" now.

 :hearnoevil:

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: cueperkins on October 25, 2009, 02:00:47 PM

 :t2:

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on October 25, 2009, 02:11:19 PM

:wink_wink-nudge_nudge:

:winner:

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tinker on October 25, 2009, 03:05:03 PM

I don't believe so Roo. Are you a collector?

Thank you Tellomon.

I've been told to ignore the insults so I will do that.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Roo on October 25, 2009, 03:16:21 PM

Quote from: tinker on October 25, 2009, 03:05:03 PM

I don't believe so Roo. Are you a collector?

Not a serious collector Tinker...but I do have a few odd coins laying around the place that I may have the coinees look at one day.
Thank you Tellomon.

I've been told to ignore the insults so I will do that.

Maybe just better to put some :bgirlpanties: on and just accept the posters here as individuals with unique posting styles and ideas. ;)

One question though....Who were you looking for when you joined this site?  Perhaps we can help you with that question.. ;D

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: mandurahmum on October 25, 2009, 03:21:32 PM

tinker - what do you collect?  I dont recognise you as a coinee

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tinker on October 25, 2009, 03:38:22 PM

I started collecting coins / notes recently; I don't post on the chatboards. I read for information only. mandurahmum no you wouldn't recognise me as I am not using my eBay ID. (kind of glad I didn't now)

The way things are right now I am not feeling very comfortable giving out who I know etc, sorry if this is being evasive but I would rather not.

I would rather leave it at that and let you all carry on.

Cheers.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Roo on October 25, 2009, 03:48:34 PM

One question though....Who were you looking for when you joined this site?  Perhaps we can help you with that question..

Just in case you missed me asking this one.... ;)

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: mandurahmum on October 25, 2009, 03:56:17 PM

Tinker, that is fine.  I hope that you will message me and let me know your id - I will keep it confidential, and if you recognise me, you will know that I am not a troublemaker nor someone that cant be trusted.

I do need to know, and maybe you could also let me know who referred you to this site please.

Thanks 

Jane

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tinker on October 25, 2009, 04:04:59 PM

I have found the person thank you.

I'll be happy to let you know if I chose to stay, at this point I may not.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Roo on October 25, 2009, 04:09:01 PM

Quote from: tinker on October 25, 2009, 04:04:59 PM

I have found the person thank you.

I'll be happy to let you know if I chose to stay, at this point I may not.

Yeah...sure.... :filenails:

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: lady rose on October 25, 2009, 04:17:06 PM

Dear me. what is all that about, pot and kettles and stuff LOL

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tinker on October 25, 2009, 04:18:12 PM

Is there an issue you need to air as well??

What is with you lot?

Yeah sure, what does that mean??

You're all so nasty it's a wonder there is anyone here at all!!!!!!

Anyone else want to "have a go" come on, let it all out guys!!

This is ridiculous!!

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Roo on October 25, 2009, 04:21:27 PM

Anyone else want to "have a go" come on, let it all out guys!!

Sorry Tinky....we ain't biting today..lol

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Ubbie Max* on October 25, 2009, 04:24:32 PM

Re Reply #59, "What is with you lot?"

What do you mean by that comment? There is nothing wrong with we lot. Many of we lot have been posting here since this the creation of this web site and we lot enjoy the friendly banter that frequently occurs. Those who do not like the way the OZ Round Table operates generally do not stay & that is their prerogative.   

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: mandurahmum on October 25, 2009, 04:25:22 PM

Tinker, I know you were not referring to me - I hope not.

I will ask again, please tell me who you are.  I need this for security reasons.  I need to ensure that all coin members are legit and not here to cause problems.

We would welcome your input in anything coin related.

But again, I need to know who you are?  If you have a problem with that - let me know.  You can message me by clicking under my avator in the bubble.

Thanks  Jane

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Yibida* on October 25, 2009, 04:29:29 PM

 :troll2: :fishing:

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on October 27, 2009, 01:42:55 AM

The Rolex guy even appears to be buying his own Best Offers to try to create the impression that his stuff is moving! (I come to that conclusion because of the mostly chronological contiguous groupings of his “sales” see “Completed listings” and that none of the Best Offer sales (of any real value) have, as yet, had any feedback left for them.)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2bwLOagul8

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on October 27, 2009, 06:28:10 AM

Those who do not like the way the OZ Round Table operates generally do not stay & that is their prerogative.

That list of names izzint long but their written in large lettering.
It reads like a "who's who" of Board Whiners who couldn't make it as a.....

:troll2:

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *CountessA* on October 27, 2009, 08:08:13 AM

It seems there's a bit of confusion about Best Offers - how they work, what benefits they offer (or not), the whole nuts and bolts of it.

Would someone like to start a topic giving the Intimate Diary Secrets of a Best Offer?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on October 28, 2009, 05:52:37 AM

Would someone like to start a topic giving the Intimate Diary Secrets of a Best Offer?

I'm thinking of something more epic, disporportionate and LOUD:

e-Commerce Wars!
      "The Thread To End All Threads"

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/Thread%20Stuff/ArnoldYourThreadSucks.jpg) (http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/Thread%20Stuff/crybaby-1.jpg) (http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/Thread%20Stuff/Deadthread.jpg) (http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/Thread%20Stuff/ThreadClosed.gif)

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/eBay%20nasty%20pix-gifs/Feedback/fbnaziok5.png)

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on October 29, 2009, 07:44:50 PM

Smee / Tinker / Anybody else that is interested,

Again, I spent six years as a managing partner in a traditional auction business. I think that during that time I acquired a pretty good understanding of how auctions can be manipulated by unscrupulous auctioneers / sellers / colluding buyers; and I also learnt something about the psychology involved in the process of motivating potential buyers to bid at an auction sale.

Unfortunately, many of the unscrupulous (indeed, criminal) activities that potentially plague traditional auctions may also be observed in online auctions, particularly if the online “auctioneer” has no interest in controlling such criminal activities. eBay’s “proxy” bidding system is quite unacceptably open to serious abuse by both unscrupulous sellers and colluding buyers but, as predominantly a buyer, I am primarily interested in the activities of unscrupulous sellers.

Nothing kills a multi-item traditional auction faster than the attending buyers receiving the impression that nothing is selling, and the same psychology applies to selling on eBay. There is no criminality involved but the measure of the skill of a good auctioneer is his ability to maintain the excitement of the sale by giving the impression that everything is selling even when some may not be.

For the same reason an online seller may choose to bid on or buy their own goods occasionally (not simply unintentionally as a result of failed shill bidding on an auction), knowing that they can then easily avoid eBay’s FVF on such “sales”, and for a miniscule cost give watchers the impression that their stuff is moving even when it isn’t.

I would suggest that those of you who cannot comprehend of such tactics by a seller really do not have a complete understanding of the psychology involved in the “black art” of selling by auction.

Would you believe that some buyers look at a seller’s “completed listings” to ascertain whether or not there has been any interest in the seller’s goods. What impression do you think potential buyers get if they see a never-ending stream of non sales?

The “traditional” auction can be a very dangerous place, not simply because you may finish up paying more for an item than it may otherwise be truly worth on the day, but because you may have little chance of getting even half of what you paid for it back at a resale the following day. Online auctions—if the “auctioneer” is interested in controlling such criminal activity—should not be so dangerous, particularly not so for the great many people that buy at such online auctions and are accepting of eBay’s deceptive claims about the security of their auctions, and are therefore naïve about the possibilities of being defrauded in such transactions.

The material difference between traditional auctions such as Christie’s or Sotheby’s and online auctions is that at the traditional auction you have no way of knowing that you have just been taken to the cleaners, whereas online auctions have all the details digitally recorded and, where such details are publicly available, one has some chance of ascertaining if any untoward activity has taken place.

That is undoubtedly the reason why eBay is incrementally making its sale formats less and less transparent: they don’t like being regularly exposed as knowing facilitators of such criminal activity.

Anyway, just for fun, I have recorded the eBay numbers of BeckerTime’s successful “Best Offer” transactions for the past 14 days, to which list I will continue to add later non-auction sales. The list then initially comprised 29 supposedly successful non-auction sales (out of a total of approx 700 listings) with sales-ending dates starting on 13 October.

Now, we would not expect the most recent transactions to have any feedback yet but I thought that maybe some of the earlier ones might, by now (27 October), have some feedback.

And, yes, there is, for one minor item sold on 14 October for $349.

Let’s hope that my hypothesis is wrong and that all the happy purchasers of these items will leave feedback for the remainder of the items over the coming weeks.

Funny though, the successful “sales”, both Best Offers and auctions, seem to appear usually in little chronologically contiguous groups; like, the seller could not even be bothered spreading the successful “sales” around a bit over the day—undoubtedly, few buyers would notice such patterns anyway.

So, again, I would reiterate my suspicions about the genuineness of many of this seller’s “sales” and my view that, of those auction sales that are real sales, the genuine buyers have invariably been defrauded.

Here is the link to the current crop of BeckerTime’s completed listings:
http://completed.shop.ebay.com.au/beckertime/m.html?LH_Complete=1&_trkparms=65%253A13%257C66%253A4%257C39%253A1&_ipg=&_sc=1&_sop=13&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_pgn=1

Spend five minutes and have a look through the listing and see if you think that there is anything unusual about the groupings of the few “sales” in amongst the very, very, many non-sales.

And, don’t forget that, if any number of these sales are indeed not genuine, eBay cannot but be aware of such activity as any such pseudo sales will be followed by an FVF-avoidance claim of “buyer did not pay”.

Where is our other resident eBay apologist? I’m sure that Riff too would have been only to happy to express an opposing opinion on this matter.

Am I distrustful of eBay? You betcha—totally distrustful! Do I think that they are doing anything to protect buyers from the unscrupulous sellers that now appear to plague eBay? No, I do not. And the fact of that matter truly is a shame. Still the current eBay management are only interested in themselves and their “performance” bonuses, of which there will undoubtedly be none in the medium future. Maybe Meg Whitman is smarter that she looks—she got out of eBay while the going was relatively good.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on October 29, 2009, 08:46:55 PM

Ok Phil I would be very interested to see the results ... I trust that you will record  the actual results and report on them as actual fact and not manipulate , bend , fabricate or out right lie about or add any hypotheticals to them , lets just see the results as they come back and take it  from there...

just a couple of quick questions if I may ... and I would ask that you give them proper consideration and a thoughful short honest reply..... not kneejerk poppycock ...

Do you honestly think that you posting comments such as this help your cause or will  people be less likely to give your theories consideration  ? Frankly, I find it difficult to believe that you are not an eBay stooge and that your sole reason for being is to drag a smelly red herring around._________________   or in retrospect do you think it was perhaps a foolish  statement ? (no harm in admitting it , we have all posted stuff that sometimes we wish we could take back , in fact I notice that the removal of part of one of your earlier posts actually changed the perspective a little and possibly fooled some late comers to the thread ... I call that the Shuggy manouvre.... nice one  )  

Have you taken the time to have a quick look at and now better understand in part how ebays best offer listings work ? and if so do you conceed it is different to how you first thought?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Ubbie Max* on October 29, 2009, 09:21:16 PM

Keelhaul all buyers who submit stupid Best Offers. whattya reckon Smee.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on October 29, 2009, 09:25:40 PM

oh and yes I concede that I spelt concede as conceed instead of concede

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Ubbie Max* on October 29, 2009, 09:28:59 PM

I thought conseed was a Greek orange pip

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on October 29, 2009, 09:32:54 PM

 :roflmao: :roflmao: and I bet you dont like oranges !

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *FluffyDuckee* on October 29, 2009, 11:07:44 PM

Evening all,

Phillip, your work re schill bidding is well regarded and if you have spreadsheets containing proof - well that is what we need to successfully fight it and thank you.  I can see you mention you have had experience in a real life action house, so I can see this background would give you understanding of the auction process.

From the perspective of someone looking on from a distance to all this discussion, I did think by your own admission, that the reference to sellers 'schilling' Best Offers related to a hypothetical theory you had that you are still yet to prove.  Am I correct in this perception?

I think in reference to auction schill bidding, noone is disputing that it exists and I can verify from personal experience when I have bought things it does.  I have watched my bid get suddenly pushed up and up immediately after I have made it when there is no other bids for sometimes days before!!

Having used Best Offer myself as a Seller in the past a few times, I would have to admit that I do find it hard to understand why any seller would buy their own items, again and again and again.  The reasons for this are:

1.  To do this on a regular basis, which is what I would need to do to 'keep interest', I would have to either pay constant FV fees OR constantly go through the dispute resolution process to withdraw the sale.  This would take a huge amount of administrative overhead and draw Ebay's and everyone else's attention to me as a seller, who never got any feedback or feedback by the same people over and over again or would drain my financial resources if I didn't go through the dispute resolution centre.

2.  If I went down the path as discussed in point one, I can't see any real benefit.  Until any offer is accepted, the item appears on the listing and therefore searches at the full BIN price until the end of the listing (unless sold of course in which case it won't appear at all).  If the seller buys it himself, he would have to pay for it before it would record as a sale and he would have to leave his own feedback, which is what buyers tend to look at.  If he backs out of the 'sale' there is no record in the feedback to indicate previous interest in the item to potential buyers.  I am aware that there is a 'history' of offers that can be seen - if one knows how to find it.  This does not show what each buyer is offering and for this to be of any benefit to the seller, he would have to make offers to himself and then reject them or let them lapse, which happens to all offers after 48 hours.  He wouldn't for the reasons I have outlined, accept them, so every offer would appear to potential buyers as unfulfilled.  Once the listing is finished, having been unsold, potential buyers would have to search on a completed listing which would require a lot of digging.  Most  buyers usually simply check feedback.  So as you can see it is my consideration, that to schill BIN best offer would require a lot of work on the part of both the buyer and the seller for little if not, no gain.   There are also  no second chance offers if a sellers buys his own BIN as there is at auction.

I can see the 'benefit' of schill bidding to the seller, (which doesn't mean I advocate it) because in most cases, the seller doesn't end up buying the item, but still has a very visible interest, movement and price progression. Specifically, they:

a.  Nibble the price up to the maximum offered by a bidder.  If they go over the maximum bid they can withdraw it and it goes back to the previous highest bid or if the seller actually wins the item, they can offer a 2nd chance offer (will still pay fees unless they go through a mutual cancellation).  So put another way, the seller can schill, win the item and still win by offering a 2nd chance offer.  (This cannot happen with BIN)

b.  Movement is easily visible on an auction.  The schill gives the impression of movement and interest and as expressed in point a, pushes the price up.  

Any activity on the BIN Best Offer would only be easily visible during the life of the listing.  Even then, most buyers would not know how to find the offer listing visible to buyers.  I didn't until the other day and I only know because it was pointed out to me by someone else on these forums. I have found no reference to it in Ebays help guides.

The buyer cannot even if they know where to find this listing see what the maximum price is offered by other buyers and therefore their offer may be well below a previously rejected offer.  At least with an auction, whilst they may not know the highest price offered by another bidder, they are not in a position to offer less.  Eg if the auction has reached $10, they may offer $12, but will not offer $8.

So to sum up, I think it is highly unlikely that sellers would buy their own BIN via best offer and if they tried it they would soon stop as it is of little or no benefit.  I do believe that some sellers schill their own auctions.  However one needs to be very careful here in naming names unless sure, as you do get genuine buyers who nibble and some buyers who just love certain sellers and their products.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Ubbie Max* on October 29, 2009, 11:10:49 PM

Yep your right Smee, I hate oranges, evil things!

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *wheels* on October 29, 2009, 11:29:22 PM

(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr342/wheels2spin/EvilOrange.jpg)

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *FluffyDuckee* on October 29, 2009, 11:30:44 PM

That's one evil looking orange Wheelie!!!   ;D

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on October 29, 2009, 11:36:11 PM

Yes its frightening ... I wish it would PITH off

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *wheels* on October 29, 2009, 11:38:25 PM

 ;D  I was actually looking for an 'orange' pepsi max but couldn't find one so this was the next best thing!

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Roo on October 31, 2009, 12:38:06 AM

I have been pondering this issue for  while now....and do have a few points to make.

Ebay have changed the whole concept of searches recently..and I have the impression that Large Volume sellers can manipulate their sales figures to bring the bulk of their listings onto the front pages of searches.

I'm pretty sure that some of their Account Managers are well aware of the best tactics to do this....and would regularly pass on the tips to their sellers.

It has been mentioned before that one of the things that will assure a seller that their listings are bumped to the top, is for them to have a lot of that item sell.

This may not work for sellers of low cost items...but for those that sell stuff in the 100's of dollars area..a few dollars lost in fake bids wouldn't even touch the sides, let alone affect their profit margins..especially if their items regularly attracted top billing on ebay.

Proving this theory is a whole other kettle of fish though...and who do you complain to?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on October 31, 2009, 02:05:57 AM

Smee,

I thought the reference to "smelly red herring" was quite reasonable and could not be more accurate for the comments of my opponent, "Tradguy". You apparently managed to read the drivel about statistical analysis that he offered in rebuttal of my OP; what other conclusion could one come to as to the purpose of his comment other than “red herring”?

Tradguy has been following me around for the past 18 months; he, like our own resident eBay apologist, RiffRaff, only ever comments in the negative on my posts critical of eBay. My considered opinion is that both he and Riff are most probably eBay employees, or possibly shill bidding sellers, but most probably eBay employees.

Whether my responses to their comments help "my case" or not I really don't care. I simply present some facts and comment thereon. Hopefully, the people who read my posts will be a little more on guard to the very real dangers of being defrauded when buying on eBay.

For those that are blind or simply choose to not see, for whatever reason, so be it. I accept that there is no way that any argument that I could put forward could elicit from either RiffRaff or Tradguy an acknowledgement that shill bidding is even a minor problem on eBay. I believe, indeed I know, that shill bidding by professional sellers is rampant on eBay and that probably a large majority of professional sellers are shill bidding. Buyers should be aware of that situation.

One of the advantages of posting on AuctionBytes is that posts can be edited ad infinitum, and I do take advantage of that ability. I note such editing with a “revised date” and if you look closely you may notice that some of my posts have been edited 100s of times. I never claimed to be a gifted writer; it’s hard work, and I can’t resist continuing to try to refine whatever it is that I have written so that the message is clear and free of any ambiguity and is supportable by the facts—unlike the great majority of statements that emanate from eBay’s Department of Spin.

And I am a little disappointed that you express a concern that I might falsify the facts to bolster my criticisms of eBay; my criticisms are shaped by the facts, not the reverse, and if you require proof of that you can always do a random audit on some of those facts that I present. As I have said elsewhere, I enjoy dabbling on eBay; I have no wish to damage eBay, I simply don’t enjoy having to be on constant alert for the eBay-facilitated shill bidders, about which it can be demonstrated that eBay, contrary to their claims, does nothing proactively and what they do reactively appears to be little more than a charade.

Fluffy*Duckee,

My hypothesis about seller beckertime’s possibly buying some of his own Best Offers is simply an extension of what appears to be much winning of many of his auctions by regularly-appearing IDs and the fact that successful sales are often contiguous in small daily groups. Anyway, as I have said, I’ve recorded the numbers of the successful Best Offers for the past 14 days and time will tell if there is anything strange going on, although one cannot guarantee that a genuine buyer will leave feedback (and in such cases eBay should leave nominal feedback by default after a period of time).

Your comments on Best Offer are taken. I don’t suggest that there is any “fraud” involved per se; if as you say, you can’t know what others have offered; it’s more to give the impression that expensive items are moving via the Buy It Now or Best Offer process; there is no direct intention to “gain an advantage or cause a loss”, just create activity.

Only auctions can be analysed in any depth (but not UK auctions: the sophisticated shill has free reign in the UK) and so only auctions are recorded in the spreadsheet; I can only say, look at the data in the spreadsheet, see all the unsuccessful common bidders; see the number of common bidders that have made very many bids on many auctions but whose feedback count never, or very rarely, increments.

These are Rolex watches and I understand that some people do collect such items, but so many bidders with single digit feedback, or high value feedback and nibble bidding, etc. And, although I have not recorded descriptions, I am pretty sure that I noticed the same nice ladies Rolex three or four times; unfortunately it’s not practical to record and compare every detail—only eBay, with some effort, could programmatically do that!   

Having said that, if you look at the data you will see that the majority of those IDs that have bid on more than one auction and have won an auction, have only won that one auction, but five IDs have won 2–3 auctions; it’s possible that the former simply wanted a Rolex watch and the latter are collectors of Rolex watches. However, there are a number of underbidder IDs that have bid on so many auctions and have never won anything and so they would have to be suspect. One ID (“s***s (3637-59)”) has bid on 31 auctions and only recently actually won one (200396867202); ended 28 October; watch for feedback). A number of other IDs have bid on between two and eighteen auctions but never won any of them. Many other of the common non-winning bidding IDs appear on individual auctions sometimes a week or two apart. Again, the number of auctions bid on by some individual IDs rises steadily through 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10, 15, 18, with that one at 31.

Also, as you can see by the very high number of bids on many of these auctions, there is a great deal of nibble bidding thereon; although I have made provision for such detail in the spreadsheet, I have not attempted to collect that detail nor flag those IDs that are doing the nibble bidding; too much work involved. (Maybe some programmer will one day write a program that will collect all the appropriate info for such analysis.)

With respect to the administrative work involved, there is also much administrative work involved in making the many multiple-ID shill bids that I believe this seller is making. When sellers start auctions at 99c for items worth some thousands you have to know that they are going to have some mechanism for insuring that they get the price they want. And there’s no less work involved in avoiding the FVF on a self-bought failed shill-bidded auction. Regardless, they cannot allow the punters to get the impression that nothing, or very little, is selling; punters have to be encouraged to get in there and compete, and I would suggest that the spreadsheet analysis suggests that this seller is creating much of that appearance of completion all by himself.
 
It’s not obvious from simply perusing the spreadsheet but as I update the data on a daily basis it noticeable that there is a pattern of “rolling” IDs in and out of use on the auctions, and usually, but not always, many of the common IDs have single digit feedback counts. I have observed this effect on many other sellers auctions in the spreadsheet to the point where I seriously wonder if some third party might be supplying some sort of automated shill bidding service.

If the above appears to be getting a little ratty that’s because I’m having trouble keeping track of all the possibilities.
 
As a matter of interest the following are the numbers for those successful Best Offers:

BeckerTime "Best Offer" 360202265059 200397583259 360199352480 200397583256 360199352479 200394667510 200395035603 360198764751 370275309734 200397226497 370274829106 360199663626 360199352481 200397218604 360200240541 200393594454 360198462643 200396103878 370276267265 200396489602 200395364651 360198152418 360197856702 360198462652 360198457850 200391887521 370275295753 360195811898 370272809033 360197543782 360195215688 370272804967 200391174064 370273281599 370273819517

Sold for $7,800.00 $6,600.00 $2,799.99 $22,000.00 $2,000.00 $4,250.00 $1,750.00 $2,000.00 $3,000.00 $200.00 $4,999.00 $4,500.00 $1,999.00 $2,100.00 $2,050.00 $2,200.00 $8,000.00 $1,799.00 $3,969.00 $4,999.00 $3,970.00 $1,750.00 $1,999.00 $2,500.00 $6,000.00 $3,000.00 $4,799.00 $1,925.00 $3,000.00 $349.00 $2,299.00 $4,500.00 $3,150.00 $3,900.00 $2,000.00

End date 30-Oct-09 29-Oct-09 28-Oct-09 28-Oct-09 27-Oct-09 25-Oct-09 25-Oct-09 25-Oct-09 25-Oct-09 24-Oct-09 24-Oct-09 24-Oct-09 24-Oct-09 24-Oct-09 22-Oct-09 22-Oct-09 22-Oct-09 21-Oct-09 21-Oct-09 21-Oct-09 20-Oct-09 18-Oct-09 18-Oct-09 18-Oct-09 17-Oct-09 17-Oct-09 16-Oct-09 15-Oct-09 15-Oct-09 14-Oct-09 14-Oct-09 14-Oct-09 13-Oct-09 13-Oct-09 13-Oct-09

Buyer left feedback 30-Oct-09 27-Oct-09 24-Oct-09

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on October 31, 2009, 02:18:50 AM

Phil , is there any danger that you might address the questions I have posed to you ???? you have partially answered one .....

and I am not refering to you modifying posts on Auctiva , You know darn well what I am refering to ... the removal of an outright insulting statement to me which was removed after I responded to make it look like I was the antagonist .... that was gutless !!!

I would ask if you could again read my post from the 29th october 8.46.55pm and give me the courtesy of  HONEST  responses . In particular I again ask you this specific question .... Have you taken the time to have a quick look at and now better understand in part how ebays best offer listings work ? and if so do you conceed it is different to how you first thought?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on October 31, 2009, 03:03:32 AM

The reason I ask for a specific answer to this specific question is that if you read back through from the beginning of the thread you will note that , that is all I was querying you on was your statements and answers regarding the so called shilling or submitting offers on his own best offers listings I actually stated that a lot of what you said made sense ... you have failed to address my concerns on this and have twisted the arguement to try and suit your own cause again and tried to make it look like I am against all your points  and have tried to justify your  comments when Blind Freddie could see that you had erred and were barking up the wrong tree but rather than just admit this you were more interested in pushing your own barrow... this is why you have lost cred in my eyes and why some many others have a crack at you on other forums .... stick to what you know best , present the facts or bloody strong cicumstantial eveidence and you will find people will help you expose these cheats .... throw in too many hypertheticals ,what ifs , buts or maybe's and the case will in most instances be dismissed by most .... dont you think so ?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on October 31, 2009, 09:27:56 AM

Quote from: smee on October 29, 2009, 08:46:55 PM

Ok Phil I would be very interested to see the results ... I trust that you will record  the actual results and report on them as actual fact and not manipulate , bend , fabricate or out right lie about or add any hypotheticals to them , lets just see the results as they come back and take it  from there...

just a couple of quick questions if I may ... and I would ask that you give them proper consideration and a thoughful short honest reply..... not kneejerk poppycock ...

Do you honestly think that you posting comments such as this help your cause or will  people be less likely to give your theories consideration  ? Frankly, I find it difficult to believe that you are not an eBay stooge and that your sole reason for being is to drag a smelly red herring around._________________   or in retrospect do you think it was perhaps a foolish  statement ? (no harm in admitting it , we have all posted stuff that sometimes we wish we could take back , in fact I notice that the removal of part of one of your earlier posts actually changed the perspective a little and possibly fooled some late comers to the thread ... I call that the Shuggy manouvre .... nice one  )   

Have you taken the time to have a quick look at and now better understand in part how ebays [sic] best offer listings work ? and if so do you conceed it is different to how you first thought?

Smee,

I don’t “know darn well” what you are referring to. I am not aware of directing any “outright insulting” remark at you. If you are referring to the remark “Frankly, I find it difficult to believe that you are not an eBay stooge and that your sole reason for being is to drag a smelly red herring around,” that remark is in an AuctionBytes (not Auctiva) post and was quite justifiably, in my opinion, directed at Tradguy.

If you are referring to some remark in a post on this forum then I can only say that I have no idea what it is other than to say (again) that I may edit my posts on AuctionBytes from time to time; posts on this forum only have a 30 minute editing window. So, I honestly don’t know what you are talking about. Maybe a moderator can peruse the archived post that you refer to and refresh our memories with the facts of the matter.

I am not interested in “twisting the argument”. I post under my real name; I don’t post my remarks from behind an anonymous alias; my intention is simply to put facts that, I believe, expose eBay as a desperately unscrupulous organisation, before the readers; I do offer an opinion as to what those facts, to me, logically suggest. We are all entitled to draw our own conclusions from those same facts; some may draw different conclusions to mine. Undoubtedly, Riff and Trad would do so. Such is the jury system—not perfect

Best Offer: I have already noted that I accept that there is no bidding competition on Best Offer; I think that you will find that that was never my point; my point was always simply the suggestion that the seller may be buying (accepting, if you like) his own Best Offers to make it look like his stuff was moving via the opaque Best Offer process; it was only ever a hypothetical; never presented as a fact.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on October 31, 2009, 10:28:16 AM

okay Phil once again you appear to be reluctant to answer my question ! so lets go through this again ..... any chance you could answer this question with a yes or no or answer it it 2 parts with yes &/or no's . rather than dancing around the question ?
Have you taken the time to have a quick look at and now better understand in part how ebays best offer listings work ? and if so do you conceed it is different to how you first thought?  

Phil , This comment ..  know darn well” what you are referring to has nothing to do auctionbytes .... I am talking about your post here when you said that I do not belong on this forum and should be posting on ebay boards and toeing the ebay line there ... not those exact words I cant remember your exact words because they have been removed from your post after the event ... its why I replied with this comment ... its none of your business why I post here instead of on Ebay forums !!!! just who do you think you are coming out with that line???
come on Phil ... you know the one ... the "shuggy manouvre'

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *CountessA* on October 31, 2009, 01:08:59 PM

Can we leave the personal side which this topic took to be discussed on a personal level by private message, if it requires that?

If reports are received and moderations made as a result, the admin/mod team will have indicated they will not allow acrimonious discussions and disagreements to escalate. Some posts or portions of posts WILL be removed as per the forum guidelines if called for. Those are the guidelines here. We give some leeway, in the interests of finding safe passage between freedom of expression and a safe environment for posting which also complies with the legislation.

I urge anyone who feels aggrieved or upset to communicate privately with a view to finding a peaceful solution. There won't always be one, but it's always worth trying.

This will be my only post on the issue.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on October 31, 2009, 01:38:12 PM

This will be my last post on the personal aspects of this matter too. I do recall the matter you have just referred to. I don't recall removing it. Maybe a moderator did so ...

On the matter of Best Offers. I think that I have said all I want to say; I see no reason to continue to go around and around in pointless circles; the managing executives at eBay are doing enough of that for all of us ...

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on October 31, 2009, 01:46:41 PM

fair enough Phil , perhaps a moderator did remove it in which case on that point I stand corrected .
In relation to the best offer thing ,  you are right nothing more need be said , I am pretty sure everyone gets the picture , I rest my case your honour.  

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: cueperkins on October 31, 2009, 03:47:47 PM

my point was always simply the suggestion that the seller may be buying (accepting, if you like) his own Best Offers to make it look like his stuff was moving via the opaque Best Offer process; it was only ever a hypothetical; never presented as a fact.

Hi Phil...I understand it's a hypothetical...but I have to ask why a seller would bother to make offers on their own products?  I'm not sure whether it would be an advantage for anything other than increasing one's feedback score?.   

I guess if someone is unscrupulous enough they'll try anything, but there would have to be a financial incentive.......It wouldn't be impossible, just unlikely in my viewpoint because there's no real benefit other than increasing feedback scores for a bigger sting down the line.... other than that, I'm just not sure what would be gained by a seller doing it. 

I wouldn't think a long standing seller on Ebay would be doing this kind of thing because they are already established sellers.  They don't need feedback points.

Do more sales for any given seller, push other items up the 'Best Match' hierarchy?....I recall one member saying something like that...on another thread about Best Match and how that works.   By the same token a seller can establish feedback simply by listing items at a low price, so why bother...just saying, there would have to be an incentive.

Countess started a thread where we discussed how Best Offer works....seems pretty straight forward....and I couldn't really see a way that sellers would benefit from making offers on their own items, to go to that much trouble.     

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on October 31, 2009, 05:09:47 PM

Quote from: *Cupie* on October 31, 2009, 03:47:47 PM

.....any given seller, push other items up the 'Best Match' hierarchy?....I recall one member saying something like that...on another thread about Best Match and how that works.

I did say that and I gave a personal example and links where ebay talks about views to sales ratios. View is not just a look at an item page it is also if item appears in a general search listing. Smee has claimed this ratio is not important in his experience. My point is that in some categories that I sell in, sales to view ratios are the most important rating in best match.

Take cameras for example a new Nikon model XXX sales will go to cheapest packages. They soon are at head of best match. Then Second hand models of XXX lots more views per sale because varying condition, warranty left etc. is now a factor. Now consider obsolete Model XX not just condition but accessories included, more possibilities views per sale.

So a seller if they have a quantity to sell, sometimes to rise to top of best match needs some BINs sold and maybe some best offers. The seller can always after item time is finished, claim fees back as a non paid or mutually cancelled item. And as phill points out "apparent" sales means various factors like must be a good deal or buy before none left, come into play.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on October 31, 2009, 05:14:51 PM

From my observations, both Philip.Cohen and Smee have valid points.

I do not believe Philip.Cohen was directing his thoughts at the mechanics of the Best Offer process as eBay have programmed it - but merely on the appearance of activity.  The same sort of psychology that applies when people use the term "rent-a-crowd".  From my own very limited exposure to live auctions with a real hammer, I have seen that there is a lot of energy put into the atmosphere to create interest, excitement ... and bids.  If you walk into an auction room with three people and a genuine Rolex up for auction with no reserve - are you going to throw a $50 bid at the pleading eyes of the auctioneer? I don't think so.  I'd be wondering "what's wrong with it?"

That being the case - how do you show interest on an eBay 'Best Offer' item?  How would you "rent a crowd" as it were?

Past that point, as I see it, Smee is quite correct about the benefits from the mechanics - with one exception, thanks to the 'Best Match' search.....


It has been postulated and demonstrated (from what I have read on this matter) that sales history has a big influence on standing in the 'Best Match' search.  Some have gone as far as to say it is THE overriding factor.

Shyer has even shared their experience which supports this...

Quote from: shyer on October 25, 2009, 09:01:46 AM

(excerpt)
............... while I was learning about mis match.  I had nearly 50 watchers on a multiple bin of 8 clearance items and stuck in middle of best mis match search after 5 days . 1 item sold elsewhere and one in testing was faulty. I got friends to "buy " 2 items so if 8 buyers did bid ,first 6 I had item to sell , last 2 too late.

Soon as friends bought listing shot to top of 1st Page ( using featured plus as well) watchers within a day was over 70 and 4 sales before listing ended. When I relisted with 3 items still had watchers on compleated ad. New ad started at top of 1st page.

From what I have been able to pick out from my limited reading, for an item that you have hundreds of, you ALWAYS use "relist", so the previous sales history is picked up and your standing in 'Best Match' is much higher.


The other part of this is the product line.  Sellers with large quantities of a small range will benefit far more than sellers with a large range, but smaller quantities.  A thousand sales over 100 products will average 10 sales on each item - but over a smaller range of only 10 products, will average 100 sales each.  These latter items will be the ones that rank higher in 'Best Match'.


One last point that I must express is that, presuming my "rent-a-crowd" view is close to the mark - proof will be elusive.  Many purchasing decisions are calculated, true, but many more are not - especially when there is competition (or perceived competition).

My most clear and demonstrative example of care at auctions came from the one held at the homestead in the middle of the cattle yards at Homebush (now the site of Olympic Park) many years ago. I saw a solid oak table - grey, dry and with cracks you could put your fingers in sell for several hundred dollars. When I queried it with a bystander, they said a good restorer could do wonders with it.  I would have loved to have seen the result!

... but the memory that holds strong is of a woman sitting on the stone flagging along the side of the driveway with two red kitchen scales sitting next to her.  I said "Been buying?" (or something as casual).  Turning to look at them, she replied, in a defeated tone, "My husband bought them. I don't know why and one of them doesn't even work."

My interpretation: The auctioneer obviously knew his business.  Was he honest or unscrupulous?  I could not tell.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on October 31, 2009, 05:16:27 PM

good afternoon shyer , the absolute most important factor in best match is key words in your title .... agreed ? 

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on October 31, 2009, 05:20:26 PM

Hi Smee.

Have spoken with a seller friend who has been playing with just that lately - and seems to have results that support your statement. (Early days and eBay sales have been flakey at the best of times)

They aren't in the business that will benefit from the 'sales history' factor I mentioned above, as they offer a wide range of products.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on October 31, 2009, 05:57:27 PM

Quote from: smee on October 31, 2009, 05:16:27 PM

good afternoon shyer , the absolute most important factor in best match is key words in your title .... agreed ? 

Initially Yes, as time goes on the key words are the title words that have good sales to views ratios. For example I have been discussing in another thread cameras and a person has deceided to buy a panasonic lumnix DCM-FZ30 model new. Now seller A is BIN selling these with post for example at $500 with title " lumnix dmc fz30 new 12 months warranty standard extras " . Seller B enters market at $480 with title " panasonic dmc-fz30 factory accessories sealed 0ne year guarantee". You and I know that is identical item. For a computer not one word is identical and many more sales of $450 means first title is now a BAD best match title.

Ultimately I feel it is what ebay sees is "selling" is important in best match search. And established sellers become hard to move from top of best match search, and the cycle perpetuates itself. Even though 0ne is not a word (zero used instead of "o" and new seller fools everyone who tries to copy ) One is now not a good title word. 

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on October 31, 2009, 06:08:02 PM

let me give you a simple easy to follow example , which is checkable for the next 15 or so minutes only because that when the listing finishes ... The example I will use relates to Rolex watches as thats what the seller the op refers too

go to ebay.com site do a search on rolex watches , result is 9,218 matches at number 3 on the list is item number 1730399242809 ... this item is listed by a seller  with a feedback total of 36 .... and yet his items appears in front of 295 rolex watches that the seller in Phils OP does and he has feedback in excess of 12000 and just about all of that feed back came from rolex watches ........ why is it so ..... because of the key words used in the title compared to the key words in my search !!!!!!!

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on October 31, 2009, 06:25:40 PM

Quote from: smee on October 31, 2009, 06:08:02 PM

 ..... because of the key words used in the title compared to the key words in my search !!!!!!!

That's the one thing that is so obvious whe you think about it - but I didn't fully appreciate the subtleties until my seller started playing with the unoffocial ebay search assessment tool.  It's a bit obscure to work with - but the main point is that the specific keywords used in the search by the buyer will be matched (supposedly) and the 'other' words in the item title NOT used by the buyer will have a strong influence on where the item is ranked.

After all, if they buyer searches for "Rolex watch" and there are 9,000 items with the words "Rolex" and "watch" in the title - how ARE they sorted?  Seems these 'other' words in the item title have a significant influence.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Bazza on October 31, 2009, 06:56:43 PM

I couldn't agree more with your example at #94 Smee. A seller can buy as many of their own items as they like but if they get the keywords wrong, it's to no avail. A buyers search terms determine the best match, every other factor is secondary. Even shyers featured listing won't help if you don't think like a buyer.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on October 31, 2009, 07:32:21 PM

Cupie,

I was never suggesting that the possibility that a seller might buy his own BINs or Best Offers occasionally had anything to do with feedback or Best Match: there is a flourishing trade in feedback going on, at $0.01 per free delivery item, (using private listings) on eBay and eBay cannot be but aware of such trade but does nothing about it.

It would be, as I have said a number of times, all about ensuring that listings have some sales so that the punters get the impression that the seller’s goods are moving and therefore must be of value; as others have also pointed out, there is no further cost involves as the FVF can be avoided with a claim of “buyer did not pay” and, if this is happening, eBay cannot but be aware of it as this is the main source of their revenue and undoubtedly in hard economic times such claims will greatly increase across the board.

As a buyer I am simply not interested in trying to understand Best Match or, as some call it, Worst Match. I simply don’t use it (that’s what setting preferences are for). Searches return lists based on the buyer’s set preferences and search string. If the buyer has not set any preferences then the new default search is Best Match and would appear to be eBay’s way of presenting a list of items to buyers, not for the benefit of buyers, but one that they think will benefit those sellers who are paying the most fees to eBay. Sounds logical to me. But then it’s not a problem for me as I have set my preferences for other than Best Match.

Having said that it still comes down to a combination of the key words in the primary description and the search string that the buyer inputs and one learns to be thoughtful about that search string to find the items one is looking for.

The deviousness of the Best Match matter is that sans any preferences set by the buyer, “ending soonest” used to be the default listing. Now eBay has introduced Best Match as the default. And there is only one reason why they would do that: they think that they can manipulate the list to produce a greater financial benefit to them.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Bazza on October 31, 2009, 07:56:09 PM

Philip, I tend to search by category as I know what I'm looking for and where to find it. I see absolutely no reason why ebay would set the default to best match other than to create a better buying experience and hence more profit. If someone is going to buy from ebay, ebay don't care who makes the sale. There is no additional benefit for ebay to push one seller aside for another. Even if you factor in poor DSR's vs good DSR's (or sales volumes etc....), if the seller has used bad keywords, with best match, there is no advantage.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tinker on November 01, 2009, 12:12:09 AM

Yes, I think your spot on there Bazza. I do two searches, one by key word and then by category, I always change the best matched to ending soonest.

I really don’t think anyone with 1/2 a brain would bother with best matched and I feel most every seller knows this.

I just don’t understand why a seller would jeopardise their business so it "looks" like their stuff is moving, moving where? what do they do with it once it "sells" resell it? over and over??

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: mandurahmum on November 01, 2009, 01:14:06 AM

I never do searches by best match - but by time ending soonest too.  Too many fakes and copies came up with best match - in the coins section that is

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on November 01, 2009, 02:58:58 AM

Quote from: tinker on November 01, 2009, 12:12:09 AM

Yes, I think your spot on there Bazza. I do two searches, one by key word and then by category, I always change the best matched to ending soonest.

This shows you have some experience and are aware of the limitations of 'Best Match'

Quote

I really don't think anyone with 1/2 a brain would bother with best matched and I feel most every seller knows this.

A lot of casual buyers just wouldn't know the shortcomings of 'Best Match' and the drop-down choices would be considered just different ways of sorting the information according to their understanding - which, by the fact that eBay doesn't advertise or fully disclose the mechanism, would be assumed to be in the buyer's best interest.  This is normal marketing tactics - let the buyer feel good about some aspect of a deal and they will believe it is good for them.  EBay knows this only too well and have secured a lot of the 'feel good' illusion by giving it the title 'Best Match'.  Only seasoned buyers will know better - and they will work around it, as you have.

Quote

I just don't understand why a seller would jeopardise their business so it "looks" like their stuff is moving, moving where? what do they do with it once it "sells" resell it? over and over??

Whether a seller's business is in jeopardy will depend on several factors, many of which eBay really don't care or monitor - but the 'movement' perception is very significant.  Where the items are physically moving to is totally irrelevant (Unless you are a buyer who examines a purchase as microscopically as Philip.Cohen has in his research, which I would say is a rather insignificant number.)  The assumption is that the seller's merchandise is moving 'out the door' - and that's all that needs to be believed.

As an example - I was talking to my mechanic a couple of months back and we got talking about when he started up.  He had the premises, signage, equipment and so on - but no clientele.  He told me how he got all his family, friends, workers or anyone with a spare car to have them at his workshop, so it looked busy.  Nothing puts off a potential customer than an empty workshop - since the assumption is 'He mustn't be any good'.  His very first customer looked around at all the vehicles at the place and nervously asked if he could 'spare some time' to have a look at his car.

If an item sells, to the seller, then, yes - they simply put it back up.  Not rocket science, but of questionable ethics.  If the seller prompted activity results in a higher price that is paid by a real buyer, then that's shill bidding - even if the seller was aiming to buy it himself (or by one of his cronies), just to record a sale and establish some activity and someone else who really wanted to buy one came in on the item.

Activity creates interest.

A quiet building site will see most people just walk by - but put a ditch digger or a crane to work and people will look - even stop for a while...

You walk past two fruit shops where the merchandise looks as good as each other but one has a couple of bored staff and a lone browser while the other has a dozen customers selecting produce, five waiting at the checkout and three people madly restocking the shelves... to which one would you be drawn to buy your fruit and veg?

Unfortunately, the truth is irrelevant in most cases - it's the perception that counts.

The perception of activity in a seller's offerings is all that it's about ... since that's one very real factor in the encouragement of real sales.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 01, 2009, 03:24:57 AM

Brumby . I see you have given this answer a lot of thought , and as a result a lot of your answer makes sense , except the seller, Phil Cohen is talking about has a feedback score of over 12000  sales !!!!! and is one of the most if not  the single most succesful seller on ebay world wide ,according to the original story he is selling over $1 worth per month   dont you think thats busy enough without having to buy his own stuff to create a perception of activity  ?????

To use the example of your mechanic ..... once he got flat out with real customers he wouldnt still get his family and friends to keep parking their cars in the workshop , they would in fact hinder his business now ....

I am sorry but to suggest that this particular seller , with the number of customers he has with his turnover would buy his own stuff is bodering on the ridiculous actually its crossed the border !!!
Its akin to suggesting that that each Saturday Gerry Harvey from Harvey Norman hires a van and drives to one of his own stores and buys a van load of his own merchandise just to I mean realmake it look like his business is thriving .......

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 01, 2009, 03:57:49 AM

that last line should read ... just to make it look like his business is thriving ????

to quote Al Borland  .... I dont think so Tim !!!!

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on November 01, 2009, 08:45:55 AM

If anyone has a little time to spare, Jason Houston has just done an extensive dump on eBay, at:

http://www.businessinsider.com/meg-whitmans-bad-timing-running-for-california-governor-2009-9#comment-4aebd79700000000009ffaaf

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tinker on November 01, 2009, 09:10:08 AM

Hi Brumby,  Thanks for your response but what doesn't quite make sense to me is, best match is all about key wording, as smee has pointed out, for example, if I search 'gold ring' or 'antique book' what comes up first? the items that have those exact words in their title…not some irrelevant item that is moving fast, like a oil painting.

Again, in my opinion, eBay have messed up buy making the best match the default result, as I agree some newcomers may not know how to use this option, although I don’t think it would take them long to figure it out, as I don’t believe that people are that silly.

Yes, I understand that actual businesses create an appearance of activity to bring genuine buyers in, it’s called “retail Phycology” (I’ve done it in real life myself) but this practise does not usually cost the seller money nor is it ‘against the rules’ so therefore potentially harming their business if discovered.

If you look at how law enforcement investigate crime (I know we’re not coppers here but IMO it’s a good tool to advocate to when trying to figure if something is true) they will use something called ‘reasonable suspicion’ this is a question they ask themselves before taking action, like, 'does this make sense or is it at all possible’ in my opinion, this actual theory of Philip.Cohen’s does not hold reasonable suspicion to convict this seller, in my opinion.

I have taken the time to read some of Philip.Cohen’s research and found that some of the cases do hold reasonable suspicion for me but on the other hand some also look simply like “bad blood" I could be wrong and this is only my opinion.

I would like to hear from the sellers in question, what say we invite them to “question time”?

There are always two sides to every argument, no?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: cueperkins on November 01, 2009, 10:28:46 AM

I would like to hear from the sellers in question, what say we invite them to “question time”?

There are always two sides to every argument, no?

No doubt,....but, who's 'We'?

Brumby as usual, an intelligent post, demonstrating a sound knowledge of 'Retail Psychology'.  Now I understand, that there is some incentive for a seller to make it look as though their items are moving....but that it's not seemingly an unlawful practice so it's fairly innocuous.......

By Comparison however, I don't think any of us here could say that Shill bidding doesn't happen on Ebay....but unlike best offer, shilling crosses the line to fraud because the activity itself is aimed at deceiving buyers into paying more than they might have done.  In other words it is profit by deception. 

I can't see the same analogy with 'Best Offer', because obviously no money is changing hands in that scenario....in the Shill bidding scenario, buyers are being duped into a bidding war, where they are deceived into paying more....so that's fraud, that Ebay do nothing to curtail...Phil's right in that regard...they completely ignore all levels of Proactive and Reactive Risk management.

Ebay ensure via their hidden bidder system that shilling is extremely difficult to demonstrate tangibly...and that's why most of the evidence one can amass on shill bidding is circumstantial.......

If ebay were serious about cleaning up all levels of fraud on their site, they'd be verifying sellers and holding them accountable for unconscionable conduct.....or at the very least, enabling consumers to hold them accountable under consumer protection laws.  Anyone who has done their research on Ebay fraud, will know that one precedent study concluded that it is not in Ebay's interest to verify sellers or clean up fraud, because they profit from it.  (NOT MY WORDS - the conclusion of a nation wide consumer fraud study).

This same conclusion was quoted again by the Supervisor of that study, in the ABC feature on Paypal, EBS and DDD in 2008.  I can go and get the exact quotes if anyone is interested.  It's not a new revelation by any means...as I recall 4000 consumers were ripped off by EBS...one of ebay's so called powersellers, a veritable 'Cornerstone' of the ebay community??????? and taking their powerseller guarantee into account, the average buyer would have considered EBS a safe bet right?.....wrong.  They were one of Ebay's BIGGEST sellers in Australia, and yet even with many hundreds of negs, and an unpaid Ebay account to the tune of more than $200.000.00....Ebay aided and abetted that seller to continue trading....whether insolvent or fraudulent, it doesn't matter, they enabled them to defraud thousands of unsuspecting consumers, by doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to shut them down.

And some are saying they don't favour some sellers?  dreamin.....if that's true, how the hell did EBS get that far in debt to Ebay (who by the way was one of the first creditors listed ahead of all ripped off consumers) without being shut down?  I've had my account suspended for being late with $20.00....and yet EBS traded for 3 months after the first negs started, owing nearly $200,000.00?  Explain that....lol

Ironically, ebay finally closed EBS' account a month after the owners had skipped the country, and by that stage with nearly 800 NEGS.....much more than circumstantial, and no doubt still happening.  I can't agree that Ebay don't favour Powersellers, they do.  The very fact that a PS has an account manager and phone access, whereas the average seller does not, aptly demonstrates that ebay do favour certain sellers over others.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on November 01, 2009, 10:31:17 AM

OK Smee, I see what you mean, but if that is the same seller who had 30 of-odd their items noted in this thread with only 3 feedback left, then I'm curious as to why such a low rate of feedback.

But if the seller is that successful, then they may simply have some "personal issues" where they can't help themselves - and do hop into their 'Gerry Harvey' van and go for a drive.

Lots more questions than I have time to spend researching. Frustrating in discussions like this, but a fact of life.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 01, 2009, 10:49:48 AM

Brumby Good point why only 3 feedback from 30 items sold ... lets look at the facts ... and do the maths ..those 30 items mention were recent sales ... the last 14 days I believe ... we are talking some expensive items here so there is a fair chance not all were paid for via instant payment , not a lot of people have a lazy 15 large laying around in their pay pal a/c so perhaps some paid in 2 or 3 days , some may have been e-cheques some may have been other forms of payment that take a few days some just may have been slow payers ... we dont know that , on top of that from memory the seller says in his TOS he will post  items 4 business days after payment , also this seller is based in the states his buyers are worldwide (we know how slow some overseas post can be ) ... taking all this into consideration is it not possible that most of these buyers havent even received their watches yet ? Also bear in mind that since ebay changed the feedback rules quite a lot of people dont leave feed back at all , without doing the actual sums my fedback received ratio to sales would be  somewhere in the vicinity of 75 to 80 %.. I would expect the feedback to strart slowly filtering back for these sales but I am by no means suprised that only 10% have come in so far based on the above as its highly posible not many more than that have received ther items yet ... perhaps I will check out his feedback for other type of sales and see what the average time is from sale date to feedback left that might be able to be used as a guage maybe ?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on November 01, 2009, 11:37:32 AM

Yes, Smee, that would be a good measuring stick.  Let me not stop you!



Tinker, there are (at least) two very basic, distinct and quite independent steps in purchasing an item -
1. Locating the item - with various sellers.
2. Choosing a seller from whom you will purchase that item.

The first can be performed by looking up a list. For fruit shops you could use the Yellow Pages or for mechanics, you could look up the MTAA.  On eBay, you use their search (more on this below).

The second is where the 'perception of activity' element applies (as well as feedback and other assessment criteria).


On the topic of the search, it is a fundamental that if you type in "rolex watch" in your search that ONLY entries with those words are returned (plurals and other appropriate derivatives included), so I'm not suggesting any irrelevant results will be thrown up at you.

BUT in the above case, over 9,000 entries were found - so the question is: IN WHAT ORDER are THESE 9,000 presented to the buyer?

That is a VERY BIG question and the fundamental one for any search.

The answer is that there are OTHER criteria used - which are 'behind the scenes', but very real.  After all, you're not going to let a list of 9,000 items get presented in any old order, are you?  EBay certainly doesn't.  It would make sense to try and present those 9,000 in an order that would most likely result in higher returns to eBay - ie maximise sales value and thus FVF's ... which will attract more listings... and so on.

Playing around with the unofficial eBay search assessment tool, it is clearly stated that OTHER words in the title (ones you have NOT put into your search) affect this.

For example, if the word "guarantee" is in the title of an item and previous sales (from any and all sellers) show that items with the word "guarantee" in their title result in sales (and, perhaps, at higher prices) more often than those items that don't, then those items will rank higher on what is referred to as a "Desirability" score.

This simply means that, although you didn't specifically ask for something with a guarantee, the search engine knows from previous experience that you are more likely to buy something with the word "guarantee" in its title.

The total "desirability" score for an item is the result of an assessment of all the other words in the title (and I haven't begun to understand the mechanics of it all) and this will affect that ordering of those 9,000 Rolex watch listings.

But wait, there's more!

It is quite clear that with 'Best Match', eBay has extended this "desirability" factor by including sales history - I refer again to Shyer's experience presented in this thread.

This is not a new observation - many people have spent many hours checking, experimenting and analysing to come to this conclusion.  From the reports I have come across, the weighting of the components in the total "desirability score" would seem to be grossly tilted towards the sales history.

This does make sense (it is analogous to my Fruit Shop example above) but, like all things where mechanical rules have been set in place, it is open to aberrations, inconsistencies and manipulation.

I will leave you to ponder what specific practices affect your experiences, but I'll stick my neck out and say eBay will simply look at maximising their income.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 01, 2009, 12:11:46 PM

The other curve ball I would like to throw in is this ....

As a seller would you want your item to appear at the top of a search list ... I dont particulary ..... yes I would like it to be on the first page of any relevant list... but I can see advantages in having it displayed at around about a third to half way down the page

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on November 01, 2009, 12:27:55 PM

As for Philip.Cohen's efforts, it is clear that not all his assertions are demonstrable fact - but that there are some trends that could indicate less than conscionable conduct.

I applaud the efforts he has made - the presentation and energetic debate he puts into his observations.  I may not agree with his conclusions in all cases, but I can usually concede there IS something curious in the matters he raises.

If nothing else, he will make us work to try and prove him wrong - and that's a very good thing in itself, since we will have done some hard thinking.  It's often so easy to just toddle along with superficial understanding, so it's good to be 'kept honest' with this type of debate.

I will admit that, sometimes, it can get obscure, though.  Often someone who has done some very intense analysis is aware of some subtleties in the detail that those of us looking at the whole package just haven't been able to drill down to ... Sorta like the engine designer at Ford or Holden can describe the why's and wherefore's of the compression characteristics of an inlet valve spring (that you and I could appreciate if we had the time), but is a bit difficult to fathom when you are presented with a complete engine ready to run.


It is more than likely that it will be people like Philip.Cohen that will find eBay's clay feet.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on November 01, 2009, 12:31:51 PM

Quote from: smee on November 01, 2009, 12:11:46 PM

The other curve ball I would like to throw in is this ....

As a seller would you want your item to appear at the top of a search list ... I dont particulary ..... yes I would like it to be on the first page of any relevant list... but I can see advantages in having it displayed at around about a third to half way down the page

I hadn't thought about that one ... but I am inclined to agree.

Just thinking through my own perceptions, I now realise that I am inclined to discount the value of the top few entries to me, simply because I expect them to have "paid" for their position and not necessarily a best fit to my needs.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on November 01, 2009, 12:34:16 PM

Would be interesting to try and get your Rolex watches placed at 10, 11 and 12 out of 9,000!

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on November 01, 2009, 12:51:34 PM

Quote from: tinker on November 01, 2009, 12:12:09 AM

....I really don't think anyone with 1/2 a brain would bother with best matched and I feel most every seller knows this.....
PART 2 what do they do with it once it "sells" resell it? over and over??

My personal experience disagrees with you tinker over 1/2 of all my eBay sales I have setup conversations with buyer before or after sale. 70% of them do not know that best match is search default or know how to change to other sort options. Another 10% believe best match is best search for them.
Also up to 3 years ago most of my sales went to expensive suburbs and usually intelligent and / or well educated people. Now 3/4 of sales go to the working poor,  pension or housing commission suburbs. The intelligent have left eBay for direct on line shopping, they are fed up with the fakes and thieves on the site. They do not have the time to investigate every purchase before paying nor does eBay help them.
Best match is about best fees for eBay. Ebay knows eBay's average buyer has dumbed down and only understand the simple options. These 'bargain hunter" buyers chasing a 10% or so "discount" that often is fake or not what deal first appeared to be.
EBay is in survival mode trying to hold the share price up with tanked sales thus fees static as well, the senior management wants to sell its stock options at the best match for them. The long term expensive ( low share price) job of cleaning eBay up or a new "Clean" compeditor winning is more the likely match ending. I now for some items go first to amazon and have yet to have had any problems with any seller on amazon. Or I go to a direct on line retailer.

PART 2 Yes they do resell it, eventually to a real buyer.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 01, 2009, 12:58:28 PM

I certainly do not dispute that Phil has put a lot of work into exposing cheats of ebay , I agree that shill bidding occurs , but this whole debate started because in the original post on Auction Bytes Phil indicated that he believed this seller was making offers on his own best offer listings in an attempt to create a falsey inflated price similar to shill bidding , I merely questioned him on this and it became apparent Phil did not understand how best offer work it was clear that he thought the listing stood for the duration and at the end of the listing time the item sold to the best offer much the same as a silent auction .... Once this became clear Phil modified his posting On auction bytes so the accustion read different he also manipulated his answers on this forum to take the focus away from that pointand make it sound like his original statement was hypothetically suggesting that the seller might buy his own stuff to create a perception of activity on his account .... In my previous post here today I have semostrated why this seller would have no need to do that ,  on three seperate occassions I directly asked phil a question in relation to his understanding of how best offer on ebay works on each occassion he has refused to answer directly . For those who have now taken the time to listen too and understand how Best Offer works they now know Phil erred in his original accusation of this seller in relation to the best offer listings .

I am not saying thats a bad thing  , we all make mistakes , ( the bad thing is that he didnt have the cohoonies to admit it ) what I am saying is dont take for gospel what he says just because he has done good work in the past ... he is not the Messiah ...in this instance ...... he has been a very naughty boy ... and he knows it

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on November 01, 2009, 01:02:48 PM

Shyer, I had my feelings about what you have stated, but as a buyer and casual observer I had no hard evidence.

Sharing your concrete experiences as a seller is truly appreciated.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on November 01, 2009, 01:11:03 PM

Sorry Smee - I wasn't directing anything at you, if it seemed that way.

I will admit to being guilty of not doing a lot of background reading - especially when it comes to multi-location ongoing discussions - so if I've come across a bit skewed on a personal aspect, I do apologise.  I'll let you invite Tello to chastise me (but not Ubbrd - he hasn't had a good keelhauling for some time from what I have observed).

But, hopefully, I have kept the kernel of my comments in the light.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on November 01, 2009, 01:12:11 PM

Quote from: Brumby on November 01, 2009, 12:34:16 PM

Would be interesting to try and get your Rolex watches placed at 10, 11 and 12 out of 9,000!

One thing that is over looked here is all auctions (apart from featured items) get their day on the first page and move up the page as time to ends counts downs . Again favouring the shilling seller who is not using a BIN or best offer. The shill is his reserve.
Also using the search "rolex waches " on USA ebay to get 9000 items every one soon learns to include the model or part name looking for in search. Or to click on category "womens" or "1970 - 1980" etc. This topic also demonstrates how Australian ebay with its small market , ebay spin is soon seen as spin USA is harder to spot.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 01, 2009, 01:13:38 PM

I havent taken it that way at all Brumby ....

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on November 01, 2009, 01:19:48 PM

For 'Time ending soonest' I have no argument, but one seller I has spoken to did some checking with the 'Best Match' and said to me that the way eBay said auction items that were ending soon should be presented just wasn't happening.

I haven't checked this out - but it is curious if it even seems that way to someone who's been around eBay for years.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on November 01, 2009, 01:20:59 PM

Good to know, Smee.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on November 01, 2009, 01:57:48 PM

 :spam:

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/Halloween/punkinburger.jpg)

Tee-heee  :tello:

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tinker on November 01, 2009, 03:47:43 PM

No doubt,....but, who's 'We'?


I was referring to the good people of this site, have I made yet another mistake with including myself in this, did I Cupid? My apologies.

I made it quite clear that I can see some logic in this theory but I am not convinced it’s enough to go to the lengths of naming and shaming.

If you try hard enough I bet you could turn a pig’s ear into a silk purse?

Heath ledger could be alive and kicking?

There are UFOs?

As far as asking for the victims of this ridiculous accusation to come defend themselves, I should say that won’t happen?? God forbid Philip has actually got it all wrong!!

Look, I’m done with this silliness; I too talk to many eBayers, buyers and sellers alike, including the people named in some of Philips accusations.

Let’s just hope you don’t try selling a painting that he wants and doesn’t get for nicks.

Good day.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on November 01, 2009, 03:51:19 PM

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/ODD%20Stuff/RealityisOver-rated.jpg)

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on November 01, 2009, 04:25:27 PM

Quote

… in the original post on Auction Bytes Phil indicated that he believed this seller was making offers on his own best offer listings in an attempt to create a falsey inflated price similar to shill bidding

Smee, now I realise how our original debate got so far off track. Unfortunately, I never said that. What I said was:

“And even those few “Best Offer” transactions that appear to have sold, can we be any more sure that these are genuine sales than are many of the auction sales which are so obviously not genuine sales? Unfortunately, eBay has deliberately structured these non-auction selling formats so that there is absolutely no transparency post-sale. Methinks that there may be few FVFs for eBay in this lot.”

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 01, 2009, 04:41:38 PM

no Phil thats what it reads now , thats not what was originally in the post . Is it ?

but I am prepared to drop that eh , I would have really liked an honest yes or no answer to the question I asked on 3 occassions , but I understand that wont be forth coming . So how about we do what I suggested previously in reply 68 and see what that reveals ... I refer to this

Ok Phil I would be very interested to see the results ... I trust that you will record  the actual results and report on them as actual fact and not manipulate , bend , fabricate or out right lie about or add any hypotheticals to them , lets just see the results as they come back and take it  from there

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *FluffyDuckee* on November 01, 2009, 04:55:31 PM

Hi Phil,

I just read this after clicking onto your original link from Auction Bytes:

 think there may be a lesson here: unscrupulous sellers should endeavour to keep as low a profile as possible lest they one day be caught with their pants/panties down. Shill bidding is rampant on eBay auctions and that is undoubtedly the real reason why many sellers use a separate “posting” ID when chatting on the eBay forums—particularly on the UK Motors forum.

I've always thought people had posting ID's to protect their selling ID's, not because they are schilling, but because they have experienced people interferring with their sales.  I have never head this theory before.  Not saying it may not be true in some cases, but I have never heard of one case and to the contrary know many ebay forum posters who use an alias for the reason I have already described.

And... not all sellers have posting ID's.  To give an example, I know Smee posts with his selling ID.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on November 01, 2009, 05:03:42 PM

Hi everyone,

Re the abuse of eBay’s “clunky” proxy bidding system

A while back someone told me that past “mutually agreed” bid retractions are not registered on a bidder’s Bid History “Details” page, only bids unilaterally retracted by a bidder are so recorded. I have no way of knowing if this is correct. Does anyone know the truth of the matter?

On the individual auction, bid retractions/cancellations appear at the base of the auction’s primary Bid History page. I’ve seen bids retracted for reasons such as “bidder entered wrong amount” (and then made no further bid!), “seller ended auction early and cancelled all bids” (and we then have the quite ludicrous situation where the system then publishes the values of the maximum proxy bids that were made and does not supply the feedback counts of the bidders so that it is impossible to even anonymously identify the bidders …).

If it is the case, the statistic on the Bid History Details page is pointless from the point of view of a buyer looking to judge the bona fides of a competing bidder, as a shill bidder’s bid retractions will always be “mutually agreed”. A record of only unilaterally retracted bids would only be of interest to a seller. And the further question would be, if “mutually agreed” retraction do not appear on the Bid History Details page, do they also not appear on the auction’s primary Bid History page? Could eBay really be so devious? I suspect so; they will do absolutely anything to protect the revenue.

Any knowledgeable comments?

Fluffy*Duckee,

I would have said they were one and the same. Sellers use a posting ID to “protect” their selling ID. In other words they can discuss all sorts of matters on the forums without identifying themselves and thereby risking damaging their selling reputation.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *FluffyDuckee* on November 01, 2009, 05:16:39 PM

Fluffy*Duckee,

I would have said they were one and the same. Sellers use a posting ID to “protect” their selling ID. In other words they can discuss all sorts of matters on the forums without identifying themselves and thereby risking damaging their selling reputation.

I'm afraid I see them as quite different Phil.

I'm sure you are familiar with the word 'motive' and know what it means.  

Motive 1.  People use posting ID's because, they want to keep their selling ID unknown because they have fears (real or imagined) that people will interfere with their sales.  (ie buy something and then post terrible feedback is one example - I have heard of this happening)

Motive 2.  People use posting ID's because they are schill bidders on their own items and want to be incognito, so people won't find out who they are and analyse their auctions

I would suggest people have their own reasons (motive) for having posting ID's, just as sellers have different ways of dealing with their sales.

I do not believe that a good proportion of posting ID's are because people are schill bidders, which is what your auction bytes post infers.  In fact, I would say that most schill bidders are not interested in most of the forum discussions, because they are not interested in the correct way to do things.  In fact if they did access the forums, they would soon learn that schill bidding is wrong.




 
 
 

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: cueperkins on November 01, 2009, 05:41:49 PM

I think the term 'Posting ID' is the problem here....having another ID other than your selling ID, and registering that ID in your own name with a different email addie is not a problem...most ISP's provide up to 5 email accounts you can use if you're legitimate....but Ebay enable anyone including the 1000 headed hydra (with motives we all know well), to sign up using a completely fabricated name, address and throw away email addie....so it's THOSE ID's that are highly suspicious and so easy to open....as we've all witnessed time and time again. 

As I've said on many occasions, if Ebay were to limit the number of accounts per member to one for buying, one for selling and one for posting, then that would tighten things up considerably...of course their imagined membership numbers would go down the toilet so no incentive for ebay to get proactive.  If someone wanted more than three accounts, they could apply for it....but presently, we all know that you can sign up a g-mail account, sign up to Ebay using a totally fabricated name and throw away number (prepaid mobile for instance) and as long as the address you supply matches the postcode for that area..hey presto...you're a member.

Real secure from anonymous scammers right? bit like shooting consumer fish in a barrel...  In fact the 2007 stats produced by Qld police Online auction Fraud reporting traced half of Qld's fraud to 23 recidivist ebay fraudsters.....it's that easy to get access to a nation wide pool of victims (time and time again). So shill bidding ID's are free and clear to do what they please (As are serial Forum Trolls) because ebay make it so easy to sign up using fabricated details.....and to a great extent, so are blatant fraudsters...they can literally vanish with no way to trace them...courtesy of ebay's ad hoc membership practices.....I agree with Phil that Ebay have the power to completely remove much of the fraud on Ebay, simply by verifying and limiting members to 3 accounts max...but they would lose money so they have no incentive.  And after all, they found a way to commodify fraud, it's called Paypal...so why clean up what you make money bullshitting consumers with?  Shall we discuss Paypus' illusory buyer protection next?

anyway...just saying.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on November 01, 2009, 05:45:59 PM

Quote from: tinker on November 01, 2009, 03:47:43 PM

....Look, I’m done with this silliness; I too talk to many eBayers, buyers and sellers alike, including the people named  in some of Philips accusations......

I would think only an ebay employee would have access to all the phone numbers of  "the people named "  interesting comment.
While Phil may focus on shill bidding and others like the roo reporters on hijacked accounts. There is in my opinion a range of bad to understandable shills IE bad is nibble bids then retraction so buyer is forced to maximum bid. Good is when item is damaged / lost/ realised description mistake in last few hours of an auction. A honest sellers only way to cancel auction is to get a friend to put a stupidly high bid on and no one is upset or unconvinced.
Is a bad shill buying your own items so you are not pushed to the end of searches in Worst match? only light grey in my opinion eBay / paypal however are nearly black. If I list on USA eBay in many categories I can set a reserve like all sensible people do on items of value. No sensible sellers allowed on OZ eBay. If a shill is used for a reserve I still see as light grey, eBay is the real villain in twisting the market.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: cueperkins on November 01, 2009, 05:49:54 PM

I agree that Ebay set the stage, and the standards to enable this Shyer, and ultimately it is they who I hold responsible also....it's their marketplace....plain and simple..... but I can't agree that Shilling is anything other than fraud....deception for profit....so in that regard, it should be stopped and can not be justified as being merely opportunistic on any sellers part..it's dishonest.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: cueperkins on November 01, 2009, 05:50:42 PM

or...have I misunderstood your post?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Roo on November 01, 2009, 05:53:28 PM

Fluffy...you may not remember some of the most memorable shillers that have graced Ebay's boards.

Some even use all their ID's to back themselves up in a thread..lol

One of my favourites was shonky car sales man....we had fun with that one for days!

And not to forget a poster that was known as Maggie...who resold a Darth Vader helmet...a few times...lol

Ahhhh...those were the days....

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 01, 2009, 05:54:24 PM

Shyer you can set a reserve on AU its called your listing starting price ... that is your reserve your starting price ... if you arent perepared to sell it for under A grand start your listing at a grand ... simple ....I realise thats not ideal but its the best we can honestly do on au.  

I would think only an ebay employee would have access to all the phone numbers of  "the people named " interesting comment

You dont need to have a list of phone numbers to talk to other ebayers you can simply contact them through the contact a member facility  

I find it amusing that in this one thread how many people have been accused of or incinuated that they are Ebay staff let me see now ... ummm riff, trade guy . myself , Tinker and possibly Bazza .... do you really think that 5 ebay staff think that 5 ebay staff would all be that interested in this ... really do you .... be honest now .....I would be surprised if thay actually had 5 real staff members

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *FluffyDuckee* on November 01, 2009, 06:00:13 PM

Hi Roo,

How are ya?  All loved out?  Don't over do it.  he he

No I do not remember any of the people who you refer to.  But I do know that the people I know personally who have posting ID's such you and I, do NOT do it to cover schill bidding, which is why you are really not a mouse and I am really not a duck.  lol

Succintly my point is that whilst it is possible that some people may use a posting ID to cover schill bidding when they post on Ebay forums, I think that most people who post do so to protect either themselves or their sales, as we all know prancing around on the internet can hold dangers if people know who you are and this does not necessarily mean you are doing anything wrong.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: cueperkins on November 01, 2009, 06:09:22 PM

Fluffy, I don't think shill bidding ID's post on the forums much....they are designed for a purpose and posting in Ebay's laughable snake pit of a forum is not essentially one of them.  Probably some do, but I don't think you can assume that those signing up as shill bidders are a minority on that basis.....I'd say a lot a shilling goes on but as Phil has demonstrated previously, Ebay's hidden bidder system makes it almost impossible to prove tangibly.....Circumstantial evidence is all you can get access to, but at the end of the day, it all stems back to Ebay's ad hoc membership system.....they let anyone sign up, so using throw away ID's for any number of purposes is taken advantage of by those with devious intent as well as those trying to protect their identity from trolls.  Even the trolls themselves wreaking more havoc on their victims take total advantage of Ebay's laughable membership process...

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on November 01, 2009, 06:12:46 PM

Quote from: *Cupie* on November 01, 2009, 05:49:54 PM

....deception for profit....so in that regard, it should be stopped and can not be justified as being merely opportunistic on any sellers part..it's dishonest.

 Cupie a seller can not cancel an ebay auction ( should be called tender but not a word the public understands) if it is under 24 hours to close and item has bids. If an item is grossly misdescribed or now damaged etc. an honest seller will cancel the auction with a friendly stupidly high bid IMHO. People will disagree with me I know , but I do think there are light or dark grays and blacks in shilling.

Smee I do take your point about a starting price but then it is not an auction is it??  A real auction has lots of bidders till an item gets over wholesale value and then only a few retail buyers left. Also tinker sailor used the word "talk" not write or correspond

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *FluffyDuckee* on November 01, 2009, 06:13:53 PM

Fluffy, I don't think shill bidding ID's post on the forums much

Yep Cupie, that is my point.  Thanks.  I was just saying that most people posting on ebay forums are not covering schill bidding, by demonstrating two such people (myself and Roo) who don't have a posting id for that purpose.  

 ;D

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: cueperkins on November 01, 2009, 06:15:25 PM

Oh Ok...you're welcome....lol

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on November 01, 2009, 06:17:52 PM

Hi Roo,

How are ya?  All loved out?  Don't over do it.  he he



(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/ODD%20Stuff/PenaltyFlag.jpg)

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 01, 2009, 06:21:33 PM

Cupie a seller can not cancel an ebay auction ( should be called tender but not a word the public understands) if it is under 24 hours to close and item has bids. If an item is grossly misdescribed or now damaged etc. an honest seller will cancel the auction with a friendly stupidly high bid IMHO. People will disagree with me I know , but I do think there are light or dark grays and blacks in shilling.

Sorry Shyer , you have been ill informed again I believe ... might I suggest you go to ebay help page and type cancel a listing in the search field you will get a list of about 32 rules/policies that cover this ... seek and yea shall find !!!!!  

I will give you a head start ... here is one that contradicts what you state ...
Ending Your Listing Early
If you cannot complete your listing as planned, you can end your listing before the scheduled date. If there are bids on your item, you can cancel them.

Reasons for ending listings early include:

The item is no longer available for sale.

There was an error in the starting price or reserve amount.

There was an error in the listing.

The item was lost or broken.

Note: Your account will still be charged listing fees (such as the Insertion Fee) if you end your listing early. Consider revising your listing first if there are aspects of it you want to change or improve.

Timing Matters

When there are 12 hours or less remaining and the item has a winning bid, including a reserve met bid, sellers cannot make any changes to the listing, including:

Ending the item early. Sellers may cancel bids, but not end the item unless the item is being sold to the high bidder.

Adding to or changing the item description.

Note: Canceling bids or making changes to a listing with bids when there are 12 hours or less remaining, can damage the buyer experience and can undermine trust in the marketplace.

To end your listing early


Type your item number into the End My Listing Early form. (You can get this number on your listing View Item Page, on your confirmation email, or on your My eBay page.)

If there are bids on your item, choose between:
a. Cancel bids and end listing early
or
b.Sell item to high bidder(s) and end listing early
If your item has no bids, you can skip this step.

Choose the reason you're ending your listing early.

Your listing will end and will no longer be displayed on eBay. If there were bidders, they will be emailed that their bid will be canceled.


Note: Sellers are not permitted to cancel bids and end listings early in order to avoid selling an item that did not meet the desired sale price. This is considered to be reserve fee circumvention. Although there are legitimate reasons for ending a listing early, abuse of this option will be investigated.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on November 01, 2009, 07:07:34 PM

Smee you are right ebay has done away with the stupid 24 hour rule . I just await the next stupid new rule. To replace the current stupid 12 hour rule

When there are 12 hours or less remaining and the item has a winning bid, including a reserve met bid, sellers cannot make any changes to the listing, including:

Ending the item early. Sellers may cancel bids, but not end the item unless the item is being sold to the high bidder.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 01, 2009, 07:18:56 PM

I am not disputing the rules are stupid at all Shyer I am with you all the way there .
But just because they are stupid doesnt mean they should be misquoted it could lead vulnerable people astray .....
but I guess only ebay employees would know the rules eh ..........

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on November 01, 2009, 08:32:19 PM

Quote from: smee on November 01, 2009, 07:18:56 PM

but I guess only ebay employees would know the rules eh ..........

...if only.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 01, 2009, 08:40:53 PM

yes your right Brumby ... wouldnt that be nice ....

I shall be bringing that very point up at this years staff Christmas party  :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on November 01, 2009, 09:04:27 PM

As for posting ID's, we have
(a) scumbag sellers hiding their shady dealings from honest members
and
(b) honest sellers wishing to protect their business from attack by small-minded, petty and insecure button-pushers.

While I do not deny the possibility of both of these profiles, the logic and practicality is very clear...

1. Scumbag sellers aren't likely to show their face on forums.  They will be talking to an extremely small section of the buying membership and likely not to anyone with a buying interest in their products - or influence on others who might be. Also, they aren't likely to enter into discussion that could fuel interest in their activities.

2. Honest sellers will attract anything from jealousy to retalliation - for any manner of statements interpreted as threatening to the self-esteem of those weak-minded individuals and consortia that can inflict real damage to a business.

Type 1, I haven't come across
Type 2, I have - on more than one occasion.

Sorry Phil, but I cannot agree that there is any real issue with the type 1.  I don't say there aren't any, but just that 1% would be an over-estimation...

... in my opinion.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *FluffyDuckee* on November 01, 2009, 09:20:47 PM

Thank you nice horsey, you have reiterated my point exactly. 

BTW - are you really a horse? 

 ;D

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: cueperkins on November 01, 2009, 09:30:19 PM

I'm confused...what do Posting Id's have to do with people who sign up using dodgy fabricated ID's to defraud people in any number of ways?....I don't think the forums have much to do with the level of fraud going on within Ebay itself, and quite frankly, it's largely underestimated because most people have no idea who to turn to for redress, and the sum of the loss is not great enough to go through all the trouble of finding out.  Sheesh in 2008, there were around 7,000 people who got ripped off on Ebay in all the various scams, including the Holiday scam, several fraudulent computer scams, several ticket scams, EBS, DDD, LI, CS..... and then all the ones that went unreported?.....just in one year? (I only researched the ones that were reported by media even in rural locations)......The first of these were fabricated ID's....the last four major rip offs were actual businesses (and one was a serial offender) who had obviously set consumers up for a big time sting....and those were the ones Ebay allowed to keep trading with hundreds of negs mounting up.....

So tell me, what do posting ID's have to do with shill billing and fraud on ebay and the use of fabricated ID's to achieve that aim?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *FluffyDuckee* on November 01, 2009, 09:39:12 PM

Yes Cupie. That is exactly my question to Phil in post 127.  I further clarify it by examples in post 129 and Brumby makes a similar comment in post 147.

I agree.  I see no relevance. 

That is why I am pointing out that the majority of people posting on the Ebay forums, such as you, myself, Roo, Brumby use posting ID's but do not use them for schill bidding for the reasons outlined by Brumby and myself. 

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Bazza on November 01, 2009, 09:45:21 PM

Cupie, I think Phil just has a 'thing' about posting ID's in general. And he has a point, although I wouldn't think it is particularly prevalent. Basically an unscupulous seller can keep prying eyes away from their selling account (and shill accounts if applicable) should they choose to use forums.

Like you though, I think posting ID's and shill accounts are two seperate entities.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *CountessA* on November 01, 2009, 10:00:54 PM

There have been instances of some sellers using posting IDs, as has already been pointed out. I wasn't yet a member of the eBay forums at the time that the Darth Vader helmet incident occurred, but from what I have heard, it was hilarious. It was - if I understand correctly - an instance of a seller who was NOT a Powerseller trying to get interest in his/her item... and ending up using a secondary ID to back up him/herself in the thread. Is that right? Can someone who was there confirm or clarify?

Some Powersellers openly admit they have other posting IDs. I believe at least two have said they use those posting IDs to make controversial posts which they fear might adversely affect their selling.

Some sellers have said they do fear auction-bombing - and I know most of us have heard some of the stories about such cases. It's probably because of the feeling of anonymity that some eBay members feel able to maliciously target a particular seller if they decide to take exception to that seller. (I'm not speaking about any seller in particular; I'm speaking generally about what can happen and what has apparently happened to some.) That feeling of anonymity means people don't feel prevented from going their length. It can be quite incredibly nasty. It can virtually destroy someone's business on eBay.

Some sellers stand by their decision not to use any other IDs for posting. They are people who have decided to handle any situation strongly; they're usually people who are aware of their rights as per the legislation, and they're people who think beyond the box of eBay. Do you agree with me that the whole experience of selling on eBay does not necessarily equip someone for selling outside its artificial environment? Outside eBay, for instance, eBay's expectations and rules and guidelines become irrelevant; all that matters is providing desired commodies and/or services, in a timely fashion, for a price that creates and maintains a market, with service that meets a general buyer's usual expectations. (Some of the expectations whipped up within the eBay environment are in my opinion unrealistic. Some will disagree with me.)

I don't have a problem with people using a posting ID - unless it is to prop up their own argument with a second nom-de-plume, and unless the second ID is created specifically to create hurt or harassment or pursue a nasty course of malice. But if sellers are using MULTIPLE IDs, rather than just one posting ID, I do - I admit - wonder why.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 01, 2009, 10:09:56 PM

unless the second ID is created specifically to create hurt or harassment or pursue a nasty course of malice

do you mean like Mrs Dodgers ?

 :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: MrsFluffyDodgers on November 01, 2009, 10:13:02 PM

 :slap:

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *CountessA* on November 01, 2009, 10:17:56 PM

Mrs Dodgers is careful of her little fluffy daughter's virtue! That is a noble enterprise.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Centuries on November 02, 2009, 12:24:48 AM

Mothers have an obligation to protect their offspring :devil: :crazy:

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on November 02, 2009, 12:42:45 AM

Quote from: Fluffy*Duckee on November 01, 2009, 09:20:47 PM

Thank you nice horsey, you have reiterated my point exactly. 

BTW - are you really a horse? 

 ;D

Only in spirit .. with (hopefully) a little bit of horse-sense.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on November 02, 2009, 03:38:23 AM

Sorry, but once again my comments have been misinterpreted. This is why I like to use AuctionBytes as my primary commenting tool: I can always edit my post to make what I intended to mean clearer, if necessary.

Regardless, I never here said that posting IDs were used to shill bid.

What I said was I thought posting IDs were used by sellers to hide behind so that they could comment on any matter they wish without risking any damage to their selling ID. What other purpose is there? When I was posting on the eBay forums I used my one and only ID; I never felt the need to hide behind a “posting” ID, but then I am predominantly a buyer..

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on November 02, 2009, 05:18:26 AM

With respect to beckertime buying his own Best Offers for the purpose of creating the impression that stuff is moving by this form of sale, I am probably wrong; his completed listings are simply awash with “red” entries; in the past two days only four Best Offers have been successful out of a total of [far too many to contemplate trying to count]. See:
http://completed.shop.ebay.com.au/beckertime/m.html?LH_Complete=1&_trkparms=65%253A13%257C66%253A4%257C39%253A1&_ipg=&_sc=1&_sop=13&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_pgn=1

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on November 02, 2009, 07:11:44 AM

Qualification: Since I last looked at beckertime’s completed listings (about 36 hours ago) there are approx 165 new completed listings. Amongst the sea of “blood” there are eleven “successful” listings: five Best Offers and six auctions (auctions in the spreadsheet). Needless to say all six auctions are awash with the usual group of very regular “underbidders”. 

Please, does anyone still hold the opinion that, on the balance of probability (or beyond reasonable doubt, even), this Diamond PowerSeller, touted by eBay as a success story, is not an outrageous habitual shill bidder?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on November 02, 2009, 07:39:07 AM

An other interesting seller in the spreadsheet is “kd_art” an artist obviously trying to make a living from his personally produced artworks. However, he is apparently not have much luck at making genuine sales. He has tried just about every device except BIN and Best Offer.

If you look at the spreadsheet you will see that he has tried $1 starts with shill bidding, $1 starts with reserves and shill bidding on the US site; and he’s now using private listings with undoubtedly the same shill bidding to try to entice genuine buyers. Nothing works. But he is a good example of another seller desperately trying every trick to obtain what is probably a quite reasonable price for his goods, but without much success I suspect. Times are tough for people selling such items.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on November 02, 2009, 08:48:01 AM

One more feedback posted for beckertime:
Number; Sold for; End date: Feedback date
200395035603; $1,750.00; 25-Oct-09; 31-Oct-09

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: cueperkins on November 02, 2009, 10:09:28 AM

What I said was I thought posting IDs were used by sellers to hide behind so that they could comment on any matter they wish without risking any damage to their selling ID. What other purpose is there? When I was posting on the eBay forums I used my one and only ID; I never felt the need to hide behind a “posting” ID, but then I am predominantly a buyer..

That's what confused me, I read your comment as written and I agree, but Posting ID's are used for a bit more than that I'm afraid Phil.  Or have we all forgotten the 1000 headed hydra who demonstrated time and time again, how easy it is to sign up under dodgy ID after dodgy ID, for the sole purpose of harassment and stalking?.....  At one point he opened an ID called Farqueueshane.....dead set....and then set out abusing Shane...lmao...  but he's not the only one who uses posting ID's to wage war on other members is he?. 

In fact, it's a common practice to open a flame ID just for that purpose.....so, whilst some sellers might be able to use the excuse of needing a posting ID to protect their seller account, there's a fair few who invent new ID's just to disrupt and abuse other sellers and members.    Actually, the very fact that Ebay enable anonymous trolls to sign up under dodgy ID's is the very reason legitimate members feel the need to have a posting ID in the first place.  One perpetuates the other.

And therein lies the differentiation.  At present, you can sign up a posting ID legitimately, using the same name as your main account, but a different email.  As I've said before, many ISP's allow 3-5 accounts, so it's quite easy to set up a LEGITIMATE posting ID that Ebay can in fact trace back to your original account. 

It's the ones who use TOTALLY FABRICATED information that are the issue here..... e.g. get yourself a g-mail account under the name Joe Bloggs.....Sign up to Ebay as Joe Bloggs of 35 Nowhere Street, Lakemba NSW, and as long as the Post code matches the suburb...bingo you have yourself a fabricated dodgy Shilling or fraud ID and instant access to a Nation Wide pool of potential victims.

In this case, it isn't so easily traceable because they are using fabricated info....this in itself sends up red flags in terms of their intentions....but Ebay turn a blind eye don't they?.   Nevertheless, these are the types of memberships that need to be seriously curtailed because this is where the fraud and deception lives...and this is why it would be better if Ebay allowed only 3 accounts per member.   Taking it a step further, perhaps if they also made it so members had to have a legitimate ISP, not a g-mail, or hotmail account, that too would also close the loopholes fraudsters and stalkers use because it is traceable back to the individual.

I have never had a posting ID or a fabricated account, (although I've been accused of having many...lol) and I sold on ebay for 7 years before the 'innovative disruptions'.   I never posted before the rebellion, because anyone with a strong opinion is indeed instantly attacked and auction bombed.....happened to me years before, so I never again posted on the toxic ebay forums until 2008 when Ebay got rid of all sellers who refused to be extorted into Offering Poopal.

Again, as I've said, limiting members to only three accounts, requiring paid ISP's and verifying all sellers, would put a stop to so much fraud, deception, harassment and stalking on ebay it isn't funny.....but Ebay have no incentive to do it.....they make money out of it, and then cry 'Venue' when the shite hits the fan.

Venue be damned, they are a 'Service Provider' and that is already an established fact - see Evagora v Ebay.

So...there are three reasons why people have alternative ID's

1) Those using Posting Id's to protect their seller account from unwarranted attack (but probably using their real name and address details)
2) Those using Posting ID's with fabricated details for the sole purpose of trolling, flaming and harassment, and which are therefore untraceable.
3) Those using Fabricated ID's with dodgy details, for the sole purpose of illegal activity, and once again, not traceable by authorities very easily.

It's the latter two that need to be seriously curtailed...because as I said, that's where the fraud, deception and harassment lives.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on November 02, 2009, 02:53:15 PM

Just to stir the Best Offer pot a little more:

Buy It Now: Now, I am not saying that all “successful” BINs are shams; what I am saying is there is no way you can know one way or the other; this device is totally opaque, so it is possible for desperate sellers to buy their own BINs to create the perception that their stuff is moving.

Best Offer: Prior to the expiry of the listing (or activated BIN, if applicable) the mechanism is somewhat opaque, if any offers have been made, a “History: [number of offers]” link at the bottom of the “Other Item info” box leads to a “Purchase History” page which shows an “Offer History” that lists the User ID [sic], Offer Status (presumably other than “Accepted”) and Date of Offer. No value of offer.

After the acceptance of an offer, if there was more than one offer, the Purchase History then shows the value of the offers of the “under-offerors” only, and the value of the accepted offer is displayed on the primary Item View page, but no details are supplied about the actual buyer. If there is no “History: [number of offers]” link at the bottom of the “Other Item info” box, then it’s either been a BIN or there has been only one offer, that which was accepted.

In either case you get no details of the buyer, not even the masked alias; you’ll have to hunt for that, over the next month or so, in the feedback Forum. See, eBay makes it so easy, I really don’t know what anyone is complaining about.

I have not bothered to try to read eBay’s spiel about “Best Offer” as the constant spinning of the great majority of the statements out of eBay makes me feel giddy to the point of being sick. I worked it out by looking at actual examples. How’s it sound?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 02, 2009, 03:18:21 PM

With respect to beckertime buying his own Best Offers for the purpose of creating the impression that stuff is moving by this form of sale, I am probably wrong;

Phil I admire you for finally seeing logic and coming to this conclusion

what I dont admire is that you have tried to bury it in amongst the trees you have posted 6 of the last 7 posts trying to bury it ...

I see by your last post that you again just cant give up when one of you theories is put to the test and it doesnt hold water .....I can see what you are trying to do here .......
you are very good at playing with smoke and mirrors and at blinding people with BS !
I am very very good at restoring their sight !
do you really want to go there ....  ??????

I personally was prepared to let it rest when you admitted seeing the light , but if you wish to continue .... as they say at the olympics  "let the games commence"

The Ball is in your court !

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *CountessA* on November 02, 2009, 04:25:16 PM

This is my perception of Best Offers with relation to this topic.

There is no advantage at all to a seller submitting a best offer to himself using another ID, unless - and this is an incredibly wacky possibility - unless he didn't want to sell an item after he'd listed it, and preferred not to actually cancel the listing for some reason, and had a reason for not using the BIN button with his other ID.

In other words, it's a convoluted scenario with no discernible advantage or purpose.

1. If the seller wanted to create an impression that his items are moving (let's assume the seller has multiples of the same items up for sale, all the time, and he DOES want to create an impression of movement to entice watchers), there's no need to make himself an offer; he could hit the Buy It Now button rather than make himself an offer - but even so, I'm not sure that a real sense of movement is created. (See below *)
2. If the seller wanted to create an impression that lots of people are making bids on his items and that an interested watcher should rush in now, that doesn't hold water since the offers are visible to the seller, not the buyers. (Just checking - am I correct on this?) It should be remembered that Best Offer is applicable ONLY to BIN items, not auction listings.
3. If the seller wants his final value fee credited, he can indeed make an offer on his items with another ID, then accept the offer with his selling ID, then offer a mutual cancellation to his other ID, accept the mutual cancellation with his other ID, and get his final value fees. But he won't be reimbursed for his listing fees, even if he relists - if he is offering a fixed price BIN item. If the seller were continually making offers on his own items and then going through an Unpaid Item Dispute, he'd end up with significant losses due to continually having to pay listing fees without sales. There would be no point to this.

It should be understood that there is NO REIMBURSEMENT or CREDIT of the Listing Fees - except in the case of items in the Auction format. The link to the appropriate eBay page is here (http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/sell/questions/free-relist.html). The item must either be unsold or the seller must have gone through the Unpaid Item Dispute in order to qualify to get a free relisting.

* Now imagine that the scenario of the seller wanting to create the impression of his items moving is correct. Well, I can see that the auction format is ideal for this purpose. You can certainly create a sense of movement by shill-bidding on your own items. But as far as the BIN items are concerned... is there an advantage? How many buyers check on the completed sales of a seller? Not many. It's not instantly visible by doing a search for an item - it requires spending more time digging. It's something that I can't actually imagine would pay off - because the VISIBILITY of the ITEMS MOVING is not in-your-face as far as the buyer is concerned.

Shill-bidding on auction listings is real.

But I am dubious about whether sellers do, on a large scale, hit BIN on their own items, and I'm highly sceptical that sellers would give themselves Best Offers.

The only suggestion made so far which at least gives some interesting perspective on a possible reason for BINning one's own items is this Best Match malarkey.

That's worth checking in terms of seeing how sales affect positioning in Best Match. A seller MIGHT, I suppose, consider the lost fees and time spent with other IDs worth it, if his items hit the front page and crowd out the competition.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on November 02, 2009, 05:35:58 PM

I wish you all would all stop getting so excited about a few words about Best Offers in a few of my posts. The Best Offer scenario was never put forward as anything but a possibility, never a fact.

Unfortunately, unlike auctions, it is not obvious in the search listing whether or not there are multiple offers on Best Offers; you have to look at the actual View Item page for such info. So I did so. It did not take long to pick out the few islets of green in the oceans of red.

BeckerTime’s current “fixed price” listings appear to be all “BIN or Best Offer”. Amongst that sea of “red” that represents his 658 completed listings of the past 14 days, 26 are marked as “Best Offer” sales.

Funny, but not one of them apparently had more than a single offer. Now, I am not a statistician but I am sure that even my friend Tradguy would think that that was statistically odd. Also, all these “sales” mostly appear in groupings, frankly, too convenient to be coincidental.

Also, I omitted to mention before that unless you recorded the original asking price on a Best Offer there is no indication of how much less was the accepted offer than the original asking price. More deliberate eBay obscurity (or stupidity)?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on November 13, 2009, 10:39:00 AM

Quote from: smee on October 31, 2009, 05:16:27 PM

good afternoon shyer , the absolute most important factor in best match is key words in your title .... agreed ? 

Initially partly yes smee look at this article BNWT has provided.

http://tamebay.com/2009/11/best-match-secrets-part-2-how-products-are-sorted.html (http://tamebay.com/2009/11/best-match-secrets-part-2-how-products-are-sorted.html)

And this text.

Quote

Currently eBay consider the best value to be the rate at which an item sells. This is measured by popularity – the ratio of the number of sales an item attracts compared to how often it appears in search results.

Free post, TRS and all other metrics are small change in my experience compabed to the sales/view ratio

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 13, 2009, 10:44:44 AM

very good shyer but how about if you are going to link then link to thr full story ..... here is the link to part 1 which will clearly show what I was talking about ....
http://tamebay.com/2009/11/best-match-secrets-part-1-getting-found.html

and keep your eye out for this

Tomorrow, in the final part of Best Match Secrets, we’ll look at five top tips to get your items ranked highly in Best Match

I am prepared to wager London to a brick on that buyimg your own BIN listings isnt in the top 5000 let alone the top 5 tips

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on November 14, 2009, 10:20:44 AM

Quote from: smee on November 13, 2009, 10:44:44 AM

I am prepared to wager London to a brick on that buying your own BIN listings isn't in the top 5000 let alone the top 5 tips

I'll collect London will have to arrange pick up of key to city, thanks.

While he DOES not specifically state buying your own BINs will move you up ladder. 3 of his 5 of his suggestions are ways to improve your sales / impressions ratio. Buying your own bin does that very effectively in a multioffer and relist item. His other tip of high satisfaction is a factor is not at issue and he acknowledges that free postage is a minor factor.

 Thus the single MOST important factor (times 350%) in his experience is???? That's right sales to impressions ratio.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: gr8-expectations on November 14, 2009, 11:06:04 AM

according to my calculations smee you owe shyer a major world capital city and gawd knows what else to others i think u better tone it back a bit while ur ahead lol

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 12:06:49 PM

http://tamebay.com/2009/11/best-match-secrets-part-3-5-top-tips-for-best-match.html


here is the link Shyer .... 3 of the 5 points ??????

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on November 14, 2009, 12:22:55 PM

Always bear in mind that Chris Dawson from Tamebay is in bed with eBay in a big way. He is based in the UK and is a seller of computer equipment. A very professional seller with a very professionally presented eBay shop. He therefore should have a good understanding of how “Worst Match” works from his contacts on the inside of eBay.

But, his eBay Shop, “mountcomp” (http://stores.shop.ebay.co.uk/Mount-Road-Computers ) is experiencing the same problems that many other professional sellers in the UK are experiencing: few islets of green in the great oceans of red. (At least he does not appear to be bidding on his own stuff—there simply aren’t any bids most of the time.) Buyers clearly don’t like the deviousness of the absolute anonymity of the form of bidding alias still being used in the UK and the cretins running eBay in the UK are too stupid to understand why.

Chris has paid me the compliment of refusing to publish my comments on his blog (he moderates all comments before they appear), and he clearly does not like my criticism of shill bidding on eBay, particularly my criticism of the blatant shill bidder, “beckertime” (see my debate with him on his tamebay forum at http://tamebay.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3042&start=0 )

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on November 14, 2009, 12:42:15 PM

Quote from: smee on November 14, 2009, 12:06:49 PM

here is the link Shyer .... 3 of the 5 point ??????

Key to London was one point of 5
 
Yes point 5 free post is a minor point.

Point 3 popularity is a point all on its own.  

point 2 while saying long listings ends with sentance "This becomes particularly important when considering popularity." IE long listing useless unless popularity at high score.
Again point 4 finishes with sentance "Best Match will take account of this with the sales/impression score so whilst listing a non-branded handbag with “Prada” as an Item Specific may initially get you an increase in impressions, buyers looking for a Prada handbag are unlikely to buy and ultimately your listing will sink to the bottom". IE down your popularity and down the list you go.

Point NOW me I just tried it with a multi item 9 bin on new listing with seller account not used for 6 months was a bottom of last page 21 views 1 watcher after 2 days. Got friend to "purchase" and then under best match sort, shot to top of page with JUST one "sale"

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: cueperkins on November 14, 2009, 12:46:04 PM

Interesting in practice isn't it?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 12:46:39 PM

item number ?   

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on November 14, 2009, 12:54:22 PM

Quote from: smee on November 14, 2009, 12:46:39 PM

item number ? 

Sorry smee I am 100% confident you are a decent person, but I have had my auctions interfered with some 5 times, from forum trolls . Once was from some one Else's honest mistake exposing my IDs to a troll.

If you do not believe me try it yourself with a new ID. It is experimenting not hurting anyone . I even remember when ebay had the test auction category, for just that testing.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 01:11:43 PM

Shyer I have tried it myself .... not buying my own stuff ... but ways of improving my listings up the best match list .Trust me I have never ever ever bought my own items (why would I they are shite  :rofl:) but my listings always appear up near the top .... why .... coz I use proper relevant keywords to how buyers search for starters  and I fall under the category of a good seller

I just did a search on Gold chain
it gave me a list of 2582  at number 3 on the list item number 190347530310 page views 13 sales 0..... at number 7 on the list item number 1803600063134 views 1618 sales 60 at conversion rate of about 3.7% ...... at 12 on the list item 200396156664 views  458  sales 63 a conversion rate of of about 13.7% ......

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 03:55:26 PM

another search .... hotel for dogs dvd .... gives a list of 19 most of which are BIN's with multiple copies ...... the only one which has sold a single copy is 220494506795...... none of the listings above him have sold a single copy  and that item is at number 17 on the list ............. the reason why he is down the list is he has put some sort of a code in the description that no one will use in the search engine ........ its all about key words and being a good seller ..... his feedback is lowest at 98.5% and most of his DSR's are low ....... I  rest my case your honour !!!!!!!!

OH heres the link       http://shop.ebay.com.au/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3984.m38.l1313&_nkw=hotel+for+dogs+dvd&_sacat=See-All-Categories#item33567f2b2b

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on November 14, 2009, 04:58:34 PM

Hi smee your link only works for you. ONLY ebay knows sales in last 90 days we are limited to last 30 days and non private auctions. ONLY ebay knows number of times a search threw up an item even it was never viewed on page 20. Even You, I and others searching "hotel for dogs" changes those ratios as we are not buying. blu ray items all condemed to bottom as fewer buyers for blu ray.

Top item for me in " hotel for dogs" is 190348647592 he sold same a few days ago as a relist that sale counts . How many did he sell over 30 days ago ?. second item is auction getting close to finish time. Third is 150371257260 how many items has seller sold in last 90 days?? Fourth is USA seller.

Time only matters for auctions BIN order is mainly. best result of sales divided by number of times search said yes. Viewed or not page 1 or page 101 (never viewed) of search. As was quoted before if you are not selling prada DO NOT USE you will get lots of search results, no sales and unuseable sales/searched ratio.

If I search "hotel dogs" number 3 has changed he has mispelt for for as "fo" and has **** and ~~~~ in title never searched charaters. But seller must have had sales in last 90 days. There is a small random multiplier and other elements in play. The only thing is for a seller to experiment for their items to find what works for them.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 05:05:00 PM

. The only thing is for a seller to experiment for their items to find what works for them. exactley what I have been saying Shyer .... exactley what I have done ... and I have shown examples ...... but the bottom line is unless you use common searchable relevant key words in your title and unless you have good dsrs and % positive feedback you can set up dodgy sales all you want and it aint going to help.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 05:42:03 PM

As was quoted before if you are not selling prada DO NOT USE you will get lots of search results, no sales and unuseable sales/searched ratio

that is a very very silly statement because if you used the word Prada in your title and you werent selling Prada your listing would last about 8 seconds under the keyword spamming policy 

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *CountessA* on November 14, 2009, 05:45:18 PM

One thing I can throw into the ring here is that search results under "Best Match" are different for various people. Remember when BNWT asked us to test this? We found that all of us had different results...

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 05:47:55 PM

I heard something about that but never saw results ... This is countess were you all searching using exactley the same wording ?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *CountessA* on November 14, 2009, 05:55:16 PM

Exactly. We searched for the same words, entered in the same way. We reported on the results: all different.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 05:57:52 PM

do you have a link to that thread please ?  or did you come to any conclusion as to why your list was say different to BNWT was it based on proximity to seller or anything ... there must be a reason ... actually I think I do remember now wasnt it something like leather wallets you were searching ?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 06:02:59 PM

Countess will you do me a favour please ... do a search on..... hotel for dogs dvd........ that exact wording and I am confident you will get the same list in the same order as my link ..... the link Shyer said doesnt work for others but it does ....

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on November 14, 2009, 06:40:06 PM

I have learnt nothing from this debate on “Worst Match”, but then I am (or used to be) predominantly a buyer so I really don’t need to understand it, and I also have set my preferences otherwise.

I know this much, “Worst Match” is simply another devious mechanism designed by eBay to give an advantage to those sellers who contribute the most financially to eBay; those of you who do not fall into this group of an ever-decreasing number of sellers may as well go and fly a kite.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *CountessA* on November 14, 2009, 06:40:47 PM

Hotel for dogs dvd - search result screenshot attached.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *CountessA* on November 14, 2009, 06:44:20 PM

Best match search results are in this thread (http://www.ozroundtable.com/index.php?topic=871.0).

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 06:51:46 PM

I am sorry I cant open that screen shot ... ??? can some one please tell me if the search is the same or not ????

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *CountessA* on November 14, 2009, 06:54:24 PM

Smee, the link you gave will not help clear up this dilemma. After all, it's a link to a results page that will sort itself (assuming that we're correct in saying results differ for each person) according to that person's results - not to the same results that you have.

Could you list the sellers you see in that result in order from the top, and I'll check whether it's the same?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *CountessA* on November 14, 2009, 06:56:59 PM

videogames_heav...
santaclause09
gamesmarket
devoteddvd
aussie_gamers
m_eleven10
moviemars-au
moviemars-au
moviemars-au
the_music_shop_...
duckys_bargins
devoteddvd
marcstep29
oz_garage
dvdorchard
the_music_shop
chatswoodyan
chatswoodyan
chatswoodyan

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 06:59:07 PM

19 results found for hotel for dogs dvd [ Save this search ]
View asList[ Customise view ]Sort by:Best Match
   Price  Posting to 6056 Time Left 

 Hotel For Dogs -DVD R4 NEW
Feedback: 4,768 | 99.8%Watch this item  AU $23.75 Free 7d 2h 1m

0 Bids hotel for dogs
Feedback: 33 | 100%Watch this item  AU $10.00
AU $15.00 +AU $5.50 1d 12h 43m

 Hotel For Dogs New DVD
Feedback: 4,258 | 99.8%Watch this item  AU $19.95 +AU $5.35 21d 18h 57m

 Hotel For Dogs (DVD)
Feedback: 3,348 | 99.5%Watch this item  AU $23.95 Free 9d 3h 29m

 Hotel For Dogs DVD NEW
Feedback: 50,585 | 99.8%Watch this item  AU $22.95 +AU $4.95 1d 23h 1m

 HOTEL FOR DOGS = NEW+SEALED R4 DVD = Emma Roberts
Feedback: 61,611 | 100%Watch this item  AU $16.95 +AU $4.95 24d 16h 44m

 HOTEL FOR DOGS - DVD NEW
Feedback: 49,525 | 99.5%From United StatesWatch this item  AU $16.83 +AU $5.99 24d 19h 58m

 HOTEL FOR DOGS - DVD NEW
Feedback: 49,525 | 99.5%From United StatesWatch this item  AU $16.83 +AU $5.99 24d 19h 59m

 HOTEL FOR DOGS - DVD NEW
Feedback: 49,525 | 99.5%From United StatesWatch this item  AU $34.92 +AU $5.99 25d 19h 49m

 HOTEL FOR DOGS BLU-RAY BRAND NEW
Feedback: 11,541 | 99.6%Watch this item  AU $46.33 +AU $1.76 26d 15h 32m

1 Bid HOTEL FOR DOGS STARS EMMA ROBERTS DVD
Feedback: 13,961 | 99.7%Watch this item  AU $4.95 +AU $3.40 4d 17h 48m

 Hotel For Dogs Blu-Ray (BLR)
Feedback: 3,348 | 99.5%Watch this item  AU $39.95 Free 16h 38m

 HOTEL FOR DOGS (NEW & SEALED R1 DVD)
Feedback: 10,266 | 99.8%Watch this item  AU $35.99 +AU $8.00 12d 12h 9m

 Hotel For Dogs DVD NEW
Feedback: 31,913 | 99.3%Watch this item  AU $16.49 +AU $5.50 6d 23h 55m

 Hotel For Dogs New DVD
Feedback: 35,870 | 99.9%Watch this item  AU $19.95 +AU $5.35 2d 22h 9m

 HOTEL FOR DOGS DVD (New)
Feedback: 110,328 | 99.7%Watch this item  AU $19.99 +AU $5.90 16d 7h 9m

 HOTEL FOR DOGS ***NEW(P:DWL2111-28.12)
Feedback: 10,130 | 98.5%Watch this item  AU $18.13 +AU $4.00 28d 4h 31m

 HOTEL FOR DOGS ***NEW(P:DWL2111)
Feedback: 10,130 | 98.5%Watch this item  AU $35.80 +AU $4.00 3d 4h 56m

 HOTEL FOR DOGS (BLU-RAY) ***NEW(P:PBD3639)
Feedback: 10,130 | 98.5%Watch this item

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *CountessA* on November 14, 2009, 07:03:06 PM

That seems to be in the same order (cross-matching the seller feedback numbers with the names, since your cut-and-paste didn't include seller names!).

What happens if we experiment with something that has more results? This is quite a small sample, and the results might well have stabilised for all. If we find the same consistency in a search that returns a much larger result, then we'll know that this is something that has changed since BNWT first posted concern about it.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 07:04:48 PM

Of course its the same Countess we are using the same search engine with the same perameters (spell check) the results must be the same !!!!

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on November 14, 2009, 07:05:24 PM

Hi smee,
your link worked once I signed out of ebay and I then got 19 items . My comments still stand, and the tamebay article devoted one full point to sales to search ratio and two other metrics only worked fully with sales to search ratio result maximised. That to me is, key to city of London and I always liked Adelaide .

Back to topic I did not use "DVD" in my search if I want a Toyota corolla, I do not include the words car, automobile, metal polluting coffin or horseless carridge. OK my error but if I sort by movies is that not DVD , yes in the real world , no according to don deceitfull.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 07:06:11 PM

I know exactly why different people got different results on BNWT's searches .....

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *CountessA* on November 14, 2009, 07:09:24 PM

Tell me!

(Ah - perfect example for this emoticon:  :enlighten: - finally I have the opportunity to use it.)

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 07:12:26 PM

Quote from: shyer on November 14, 2009, 07:05:24 PM

Hi smee,
your link worked once I signed out of ebay and I then got 19 items . My comments still stand, and the tamebay article devoted one full point to sales to search ratio and two other metrics only worked fully with sales to search ratio result maximised. That to me is, key to city of London and I always liked Adelaide .

Back to topic I did not use "DVD" in my search if I want a Toyota corolla, I do not include the words car, automobile, metal polluting coffin or horseless carridge. OK my error but if I sort by movies is that not DVD , yes in the real world , no according to don deceitfull.

Shyer I am not saying Ebay have got it right , what I am saying is that I have worked out how people search , as a seller you must think how would most buyers search the item I am selling , if you do that and include those keywords in your title you will find that your items appear in a more prominent position in their search .... Do you get this ????

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on November 14, 2009, 07:29:23 PM

Quote from: smee on November 14, 2009, 07:04:48 PM

Of course its the same Countess we are using the same search engine with the same perameters (spell check) the results must be the same !!!!

No smee,

Firstly ebay admits a ramdom factor, in basic computer programing you can call a random number. Just like picking from a card deck . you can then add /multiply /take to the power of/ differentiate the equation that random number is used in. Is used for all sorts of trouble shootings or what if's.

Secondly the more people serach specific words the more the search is locked to the sales/ search ratio that suits those words. Look at your example first in list is title

"Hotel For Dogs -DVD R4 "

No - sign or R4 in search second to six last in list all had "hotel for dogs DVD" as most of title. Sales matter not words.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *FluffyDuckee* on November 14, 2009, 07:35:02 PM

OK, I logged into ebay as me in a new browser and placed Smee's link in the adress bar

I got a return of 19 items (sorry Shyer, but I was able to list inside ebay and whilst I was logged on)  BTW I also tested this whilst NOT being logged on prior in a different browser and got the same results as well.

I then opened another browser and logged into my account again.  I put the keywords as Smee requested the Countess do a search on:

'hotel for dogs dvd'

I placed the two screens side and by side and checked each return.  All 19 of them were exactly the same and in the same order, including the one referred to earlier at no. 17.

I then did a search on 'dvd hotel for dogs' so I changed the same key words around a bit but they were the same key words

The results this time were similiar, however I did notice a difference.  A listing previously at no. 12, suddenly shot up to no. 4.  This had had no sales and 5 copies were listed.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Hotel-For-Dogs-Blu-Ray-BLR_W0QQitemZ280410659945QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Movies_Movies_TV_Shows?hash=item4149c71c69

Interesting thing about this is that the first word I used in the search was DVD and this title does not have the word DVD in it?  

The reason?  I believe it was the category.  It is my opinion that Ebay have attributed more weight to categories when people do searches, then key words.  It should be noted that the sale state did not change when this same DVD shot from 12 to 4th position.  Only the words searched for.  

To further test this theory, I then did another search:

dvd dogs for hotel

Note I have left the more highly weighted category word, dvd as number one word, but rearranged the other words.

The results were exactly the same as the previous search on dvd hotel for dogs.

So this does prove that key words alone can cause a listing to progress up the results page and if two people search on the same keywords, the return will be the same.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *wheels* on November 14, 2009, 07:51:29 PM

Fluffy, I remember reading a thread on the US boards about Best Match working left to right. I'll see if I can find it.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *wheels* on November 14, 2009, 08:09:31 PM

Sorry, can't find it, maybe I didn't read it, maybe it was just the voices in my head  ;D

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 08:18:17 PM

Shyer, I have emailed Chris Dawson (the author of the 3 part best match tutorial)
I will try and entice Chris to come to our forum as a guest ( he is in the uk ) for a discussion on this matter , As you can see from his 3 part tute he has done extensive research into how this works and as a professional ebay seller I would expect him to do his homework as he is looking for a competative edge (although he has shared his research to help others ) .... If he agrees to come here as a visitor (I will clear it with Admin here first)  I would like to set up a dedicated thread where he can have a Q & A  session in an orderly fashion .... Would you or anyone for that matter be interested in listening to what he has to say . and heed his answers to direct questions  ??????

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on November 14, 2009, 08:20:27 PM

Good idea smee

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 08:24:44 PM

ok ... so we are happy to treat the mans answers with some respect if I get him here ?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *FluffyDuckee* on November 14, 2009, 08:24:58 PM

Wheelie   ;D

All I have really proved below is that listings can progress up a search result on the basis of key words searched on and then changing those words around.

An interesting aside I have discovered is the return of a listing where the first word in the search is the word DVD and this is not in the title of the listing that has been still given preferencial treatment and thus progressed up the search display.  On the basis of this I put forward a theory that perhaps this was due to the category of a listing holding more weight than the key words.  This part was theory only and cannot be conclusively stated without out more testing.  So it is possible that what you are remembering is correct and it is also possible that my theory re categories is correct, but we cannot definitively say until this is tested with multiple examples.

What has been tested and proven is that key words searched on DO effect the position a listing is displayed in, but are consistant across multiple people if they search for the same thing with the same words.  Of course there are other influences, such as postage cost etc that will also effect the positioning, but once again this result will be consistant across people who input the same parameters.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on November 14, 2009, 08:28:39 PM

Quote from: smee on November 14, 2009, 08:24:44 PM

ok ... so we are happy to treat the mans answers with some respect if I get him here ?

Define "respect".  :marvin: :tello:

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 08:31:03 PM

Quote from: tellomon on November 14, 2009, 08:28:39 PM

Quote from: smee on November 14, 2009, 08:24:44 PM

ok ... so we are happy to treat the mans answers with some respect if I get him here ?

Define "respect".  :marvin: :tello:

Sorry Tel I cant answer that .... I've got none , I will buy some on ebay prior to the meeting date .... have you got any you wish to sell at mates rates ?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on November 14, 2009, 08:32:59 PM

Nope.

Surplus Drum gear only...

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 08:34:39 PM

ok will keep searchin'

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on November 14, 2009, 08:46:23 PM

Here's my success secret for BUYING on eBay:

I personally know my steady sellers.

I ask for and get the "Tello Deals", OFF-SITE!!!

PayPal is still used, but WTF?

F'em!

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 08:56:09 PM

Quote from: tellomon on November 14, 2009, 08:46:23 PM

Here's my success secret for BUYING on eBay:

I personally know my steady sellers.

I ask for and get the "Tello Deals", OFF-SITE!!!

PayPal is still used, but WTF?

F'em!

Tel thats not a secret ..... thats smart business !!!

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on November 14, 2009, 09:03:45 PM

Off-eBay transactions eBay no like.

Rules. Rules?

Homey don't play them all the time.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on November 14, 2009, 09:51:20 PM

Smee is correct to a point. To get found at all in any search a seller has to use a spread of appropriate key words, in at least the item title, that a buyer is most likely to use in their search. Variations in found key words obviously will have an effect as some sort of algorithm has to be applied to decide positions in the search results list for items that may range from an exact match to a partial match. The fact is eBay’s search algorithm can only work with the string that the buyer inputs; it can’t otherwise “know” what the buyer wants.

But, I suspect that that basic search function has got nothing to do with “Worst Match” and won’t ensure you a spot at the top of the first page of the “Worst Match” search result; I suspect that there is nothing random about “Worst Match”; only if you are a seller who is selling and thereby providing revenue for eBay will you be successful in making your way up the “Worst Match” search list; I have no doubt that eBay measures the “value” of a seller’s items by the number of items sold and the resulting amount of fees the seller pays; the more fees you pay to eBay the better is your chance of climbing up the “Worst Match” search list, assuming your key words enable you to be “found” in the first place.

What other purpose can “Worst Match” have? And, if eBay thought that “Worst Match” would not be of a greater benefit to eBay than all the other parameter searches, why do you think that they would make it the default search rather than simply another option? “Worst Match” is simply another devious eBay mechanism that attempts to indirectly advantage eBay by advantaging those sellers who contribute most to eBay’s revenue. It’s got nothing to do with benefitting all buyers or sellers generally; eBay has no understanding of such a concept. “Worst Match” would appear to be simply another desperate attempt to stop the hemorrhaging of revenue and the ongoing slide into the abyss. It’s obviously doomed to fail on both counts.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 10:15:03 PM

Phil .... I think I agree ... but cant really make sense of all you are trying to say too many ""   "" etc for my liking .... but .... I think I agree ... the best match and once again like ebays terminology of best offer its not the correct wording nor by the way is "worst match"   but however thats how it is at the moment so when I am selling something I do my utmost to make sure my listing is in a prominent place in the list to my liking .... same as when I buy stuff I refine my search accordingly ... ie I immediatley weed out out listings from undesireable locations .... I am not allowed to say China here so I will not say CHINA I also narrow my search by a number of other perameters but only coz I know how .... as a seller I know the average buyer doesnt know how to trim their search or doesnt care to so when I list I use key words to the max but never cross the line to key word spamming to maximize my exposure .... that is good business

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on November 14, 2009, 10:32:14 PM

....but never cross the line to key word spamming to maximize my exposure .... that is good business.

Playing by The Rules.

Good boy!

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *wheels* on November 14, 2009, 11:08:17 PM

Smee,

I just did a search for Simply Yoga (a book and dvd set) in All Categories and Best Match puts item #330375641450 Simply Pilates in pole position! This is ahead of the actual Simply Yoga books. It is an auction listing and is the item on the page ending soonest.

Why does it even appear as a result? Is it because the category adds Yoga as a keyword to the listing?

Listed in category:   
    * Movies >
    * Movies, TV Shows >
    * DVDs >
    * Exercise, Fitness >
    * Yoga, Pilates

The only place that the word Yoga is mentioned in the listing is the Item Specifics section
Genre:  Exercise & Fitness
       Yoga

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 14, 2009, 11:12:41 PM

coz pilates and yoga equate to the same thing in ebay lingo

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 15, 2009, 12:06:23 AM

okay .... was liasing with Chris when @#$#$@# pc started palying up .... have half the convo saved on email but despite last transaction shows as me having responded I cant locate the response message anywhere on outlook .... not in sent ... not in drafts just @#$#@#$ gone so I hope it went to him ... will await reply and report back here ... hope its not lost in cyberspace !!

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on November 15, 2009, 12:12:21 AM

It may have been re-routed to Elvis.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 15, 2009, 12:15:42 AM

yes or MJ ... but I will know when reply comes ..... E.P'S replies are covered in mayo and ketchup from burgers and M.J's replies ..... well lets not go there please  .....

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on November 15, 2009, 12:48:05 AM

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/ODD%20Stuff/Bizaar%20Pics%20and%20Gifs/download-21a.jpg)

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 15, 2009, 12:50:38 AM

Quote from: tellomon on November 15, 2009, 12:48:05 AM

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/ODD%20Stuff/Bizaar%20Pics%20and%20Gifs/download-21a.jpg)

OOOOoooooo  I see .... if that happened to me , I would have been verbally sodomised by sections of the peanut gallery !

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on November 15, 2009, 12:57:14 AM

*wink-wink*

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on November 15, 2009, 10:49:28 AM

Quote from: smee on November 15, 2009, 12:06:23 AM

okay .... was liasing with Chris when @#$#$@# pc started palying up

Well done smee

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 15, 2009, 01:26:39 PM

For anyone who maybe interested

Chris Dawson ... The fellow who did the 3 part tutorial on tamebay linked on this thread has agreed to come to our forum as a guest one night/evening this coming  week (he is in England so it will be morning his time ) I will arrange an exact day and time with Chris and advise details over the next few days  . To keep it orderley , how I would invisage it working is we start a dedicated live Q&A thread on this topic on the arranged night , Chris has already done extensive research on this matter so should be able to give educated on the spot answers although I guess it is possible someone may throw him a curve ball that he may need a little time to research the correct answer I am not sure . Bear in mind all his research on best match has been done based on Ebay UK but I would imagine that any differences in the way it works compared to Ebay au would be subtle ... again I am not sure on this point he may well know . Also if any one is interested Chris will be writing a piece on shill bidding this Monday on Tamebay (Gawd help us I can sense some one in Brighton sands getting an errection as we speak )  
To get a feel for the man (so to speak) here are some links to Chris's profile from tamebay and Royal mail
http://tamebay.com/author/mountie

http://www.royalmail.com/portal/rm/jump1?catId=68500710&mediaId=101500767

I will keep you informed on date/time etc .... If anyone has any suggestions or input regarding this please feel free to message me today or asap before I make final arrangements regarding time and format with Chris ... Thanks

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on November 15, 2009, 02:16:24 PM

I am only theorising, but it does seem logical to include the category name(s) as part of the item's searchable keywords.

A user may be ignorant of the category structure, impatient at the time taken to step through it or just lazy ... and will put in "fifth element dvd" to search on that movie on the desired medium.

Stepping back from the micro-analytical focus, it is quite obvious from such a search query what the buyer is looking for and I have little doubt that search engine analytics clearly show including the category alongside the sellers item title is necessary.

After all, if you were a buyer and found "Fifth Element - Factory sealed - R4" in the DVD category (local, better price or whatever) through an alternate path after having committed to purchase from another source, wouldn't you be peeved?

So, although there are some aspects of "best match" with which I take issue, I believe category inclusion in the search process is not only normal, but essential to provide reasonable results from any search engine.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *CountessA* on November 15, 2009, 02:18:21 PM

Smee, thank you; as much as I loathe the duplicated word pro-active (after all, it really means nothing more than "active", if we're honest and strip away the corp-speak bark from it), it is tempting to use that word to describe what you've been doing.

*thinks about it*

No, let's stick with "active" and "lateral-thinking" and "Smeeish".

 :smee!: :star: :star: :star: :star: :star:

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 16, 2009, 02:04:13 AM

Smee,

I just did a search for Simply Yoga (a book and dvd set) in All Categories and Best Match puts item #330375641450 Simply Pilates in pole position! This is ahead of the actual Simply Yoga books. It is an auction listing and is the item on the page ending soonest.

Why does it even appear as a result? Is it because the category adds Yoga as a keyword to the listing?

Listed in category:   
    * Movies >
    * Movies, TV Shows >
    * DVDs >
    * Exercise, Fitness >
    * Yoga, Pilates

The only place that the word Yoga is mentioned in the listing is the Item Specifics section
Genre:  Exercise & Fitness
       Yoga

Wheels , sorry I didnt elaborate yesterday but in the category shown below , pilates and yoga are the same so when you put either in the keyword search it will bring up both .

Quote from: smee on November 14, 2009, 11:12:41 PM

coz pilates and yoga equate to the same thing in ebay lingo

Listed in category: Movies > Movies, TV Shows > DVDs > Exercise, Fitness > Yoga, Pilates

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on November 19, 2009, 05:12:38 PM

As a matter of interest, of BeckerTimes’s 30 “Best Offer” sales between 13 and 25 October, 11 have now received feedback; 18 of them are still outstanding.

Since I started watching BeckerTime, on 13 July there have been 166 auctions. On these auctions, without winning a single auction (unless otherwise noted), the numbers of individuals who have made bids on multiple auctions are as follows:

2 auctions: 168; 3 auctions: 57; 4 auctions: 37; 5 auctions: 20; 6 auctions: 6; 7 auctions: 6; 8 auctions: 1; 9 auctions: 1; 11 auctions: 1; 12 auctions: 3; 13 auctions: 4; 14 auctions: 1; 18 auctions: 1 (won 2 auctions); 28 auctions: 1; 58 auctions: 1; 63 auctions: 1 (won 3 auctions very recently).

One of these very regular bidders, “ss(3637-3706),” between 13 July and 18 November has bid on 63 of BeckerTime’s auctions and only recently has won three auctions, the earliest on 28 October; but has not yet left any feedback.

Another regular bidder “hr(131)” has, between 14 October and 18 November, bid on 58 auctions (I think on every 99c-start auction, actually), but has not yet won a single auction, nor has his feedback count incremented!

Another regular bidder “iy(34-35)” has, between 29 July and 16 November, bid on 28 auctions, but has not yet won a single auction (not even accidentally); in that time his feedback count has incremented 1 unit!

Another regular bidder “lr(51-53)” has, between 9 October and 13 November, bid on 18 auctions, and has won two auctions; his feedback count has incremented (guess what) just two units! (Well, I suppose he could be a Rolex watch collector.)

Do I really need to go on?

Chris Dawson apparently is of the opinion that there is no “proof” here that BeckerTime, or any of the other sellers in the spreadsheet with similar bidding patterns, are outrageous, habitual shill bidders …

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Bazza on November 19, 2009, 09:42:45 PM

Do I really need to go on?

Well, actually you could Philip. You could show what % of those ID's bid history (between July & November) were on Beckertimes auctions. Not just the stats that favour your theory.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on November 20, 2009, 10:23:10 AM

Hi Bazza,

I have made provision on the spreadsheet for those additional stats from the Bid History Details page but unfortunately it’s simply to much work to do manually. Now if some competent programmer would write a program that would collect all the relevant data then every buyer could really have some fun exposing the probable shills, or at least be warned that shills are probably about.

Bear in mind that the “% with” stat can be easily manipulated by the smart shill by placing nominal non-winning bids on other sellers’ auctions (you know, probably some of those many funny little bids that we see on many auctions).

The 30-Day Summary stats for the four very regular bidders are:

hr(131):
Total bids: 406; Items bid on: 366; Bid activity (%) with this seller: 16%  (I notice that his feedback count has just incremented to 132; in other words out of 366 items bid on in the last 30 days he has finally bought one, and not one of Mr Becker’s, apparently; an accident elsewhere possibly?)

iy(34-35):
Total bids: 26; Items bid on: 20; Bid activity (%) with this seller: 88%
 
lr(51-53):
Total bids: 75; Items bid on: 58; Bid activity (%) with this seller: 22% 

ss(3637-3706):
Total bids: 415; Items bid on: 394; Bid activity (%) with this seller: 12%

All of which simply goes to show that the information supplied by eBay on the Bid History Details page, supposedly to enable buyers to protect themselves from shill bidding sellers, will only suggest the possibility of naïve shill bidding; it will not expose the smarter “professional” shill bidder that will only be exposed by a multiple-auction analysis.

Unfortunately, it’s not possible to manually analyse all the facts that may better expose possible shill bidding and clearly eBay have no intention of doing anything truly effective that might have an adverse effect on their revenue; better to simply obscure the matter (as they have done) and claim that, anyway, shill bidding is only a very minor problem …

The ugly fact is, if you bid on an auction for anything of value and that auction starts at a “baiting” low value, then on the balance of probability you are going to be competing against a shill bidder, and if the sellers is really smart you will be competing against more than one bidder (it’s so much easier to make it look like genuine bidding if two or more shills are used: the nibbler is not nibbling at your proxy maximum, he’s simply competing with another known shill).

The relevant “facts”: are in the spreadsheet; for those buyers that are interested, an evening’s thought-provoking entertainment awaits them.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on November 20, 2009, 11:28:58 PM

Quote

The ugly fact is, if you bid on an auction for anything of value and that auction starts at a “baiting” low value, "then on the balance of probability you are going to be competing against a shill bidder

"on the balance of probability" ???

What evidence do you have for such an assertion?

I only ask as it is not self-evident nor obvious, yet it is the singular condition for the statement that follows.

As for the ' "baiting" low value' - I don't think it unusual for 99 cent starts on items a seller knows will sell for more.  It gets buyers to place a low bid in the hope that they will be lucky.  Once they've gotten their feet wet on that item, they are more inclined to stay with it - even if it passes (say) $10, rather than leave it and start bidding on another one of the same thing that started at $9.95.

I'm not saying that shill bidding can't look like that - it can - but on the balance of probability which is more likely - shilling, or a successful marketing ploy by a seller to attract bidders to their items...?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on November 21, 2009, 08:49:29 AM

Hi Brumby,

Everyone keeps asking for “evidence”; I can only keep referring to the facts contained in the spreadsheet. You have to draw your own conclusions therefrom. Nothing is “self-evident or obvious”; even if a seller and a bidder share the same IP address that does not necessarily mean that the bidder is a shill; ultimately, more definitive “evidence” can only be supplied by a more sophisticated analysis of all aspects of the patterns of bidding; such a sophisticated analysis could produce a “scale” of the likelihood that a bidder was a shill; obviously, eBay has no intention of ever implementing such an analysis …

I can only say to you that, for me, the basis for my assertion are those facts of the patterns of bidding on such auctions that are demonstrated in the spreadsheet. From those facts, I conclude, logically I think, that the great majority of professional sellers of items of any real value who start an auction at $1 will have a mechanism for obtaining the price that they want (or the auction will be cancelled). That mechanism will be one or more common (shill) bidders bidding on the auction. If, from those same patterns of bidding displayed in the spreadsheet, you conclude otherwise, so be it.

I think your suggestion that buyers place a low bid “hoping to be lucky” is not realistic; I suspect most people have got better things to do with their time; and even if what you say was the case, why would they then bid higher? More likely all those funny little single-digit bids on items of some obvious value are shills making “no-win”” bids for the purpose of diluting their own-auction “% bids with” statistic. Bear in mind that if every pro seller has 10-20 shill IDs, he has to work hard making “non-win” bids on other sellers’ auctions so that his shill IDs don’t appear to obvious in the Bid History Details stats.

Chris Dawson suggested to me that eBay would catch shill bidders because they compare IP addresses. Chris is obviously not a shill-bidding seller; no smart “professional” shill-bidding seller would ever be silly enough to make his shill bids from his “paid” IP account. That’s what free email accounts such as Hotmail, etc, are for …

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *CountessA* on November 21, 2009, 09:35:34 AM

Philip, you may be confusing email addresses with IP addresses.

They are different things.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Bazza on November 21, 2009, 11:17:13 AM

Therein lies the problem people have with Philips theories Countessa. For someone who pushes the 'shill-bidders must be named & shamed' barrow, his understanding of ebay processes are limited to those which suit the cause.

I honestly don't know why you, as the site administrator allow Philips accusations and naming ebay traders as shill-bidders, the opportunity to run the risk of legal action against you. I'm damn sure if I was one of the named traders, I'd be contacting a solicitor.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: cueperkins on November 21, 2009, 12:03:23 PM

I honestly don't know why you, as the site administrator allow Philips accusations and naming ebay traders as shill-bidders, the opportunity to run the risk of legal action against you. I'm damn sure if I was one of the named traders, I'd be contacting a solicitor.

Isn't it grand that we live in a democracy, where people have a right to their own opinion....which is what this is...Philips opinion.  You have the option to agree, disagree, or refrain from comment. No offense Bazza (dejavu..lol)...but this type of statement is OTT...if you have such concerns try a PM to admin...

As it is, you may not have noticed, but nobody is promoting this theory...in fact, many are disputing it, and some remain undecided.....in a democracy, that's how theories are proven or disproven.  Clearly you don't know much about the law.....Philips theory also appears on another well know chat site.....do you feel like making the same outrageous statements to the administrator of that site?.

And of course, let's not forget that his theories were also published in print, and aired on TV.....Oh my Gord....so much potential for expensive legal action, so little time.......should they all receive an email advising them of their audacity in allowing Philips 'theories' to be aired on National TV and print media ????

If you're so adamant.... you better get writing then.....oh and don't forget to warn them about their legal risk...I'm sure they'd be thrilled to be availed of free unqualified legal advice......after all, what would they know....lol

Just saying... ;D

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Bazza on November 21, 2009, 12:15:04 PM

Yep, I'll wait for someone with authority on this site to respond....thanks all the same.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: cueperkins on November 21, 2009, 12:24:11 PM

Whatever !!!....the obvious seems to escape you even with examples....but your intent in such an outrageously unqualified statement seems pretty clear to me...knock yourself out.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Bazza on November 21, 2009, 12:57:46 PM

So which part of my post do you find outragous Cupie?

I don't remember Philip naming and shaming on TV as he does here??? Airing his theory, yes (which incidently, I support his right to do). But not accusing ebay traders by name??? Correct me if I'm wrong.

You seem to know a little about the law. What is defamation?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on November 21, 2009, 01:11:26 PM

Well, I have no authority on this site - but I can offer my opinion based on my own observations.

Firstly, I have no qualms with Philip presenting his theories and acknowledge he has put a lot of time and effort into it.  Having worked so intimately with it, he most certainly will have seen more subtle indications in the data he has put together than most others and may present conclusions that escape our cursory understanding.

Secondly, the specific naming of parties is something of which I'm sure admin here are very aware - but you're not going to see that advertised.  IF there is an issue with legal risk or complaint from the named party, have no doubt appropriate and swift action will be taken.  Further, don't expect any explanations - privacy laws will preclude that.


As for the named parties, whether they consider this to be a matter for complaint can be driven by a number of factors. 
- The first of these is the nature of the accusation - shill bidding - and the concern by the seller may not be sufficient to warrant a response.
- Then there is the credibility of the source.  If that is considered weak or groundless, then the real risk of the accusations fade significantly. In these cases it is often better to ignore them, as addressing them, especially in legal action, immediately gives some legitimacy to those accusations.  This could result in more mud being thrown up and, even if completely exonerated, 'mud sticks'.
- It may also be that the accusations made do not match the prices attained.  It's all well and good to shout "Shill! Shill!", but if buyers still see a good price at the end of it all, then they are not as likely to be put off - so support for the accusations will not be forthcoming from "affected" buyers.  (This is one point about which I can see Phil getting animated - where buyers ARE getting shilled, but are still happy with the price they paid.)
- We can then look at the impact to the sellers trading.  If it hasn't suffered, they may not be bothered.  There is also the possibility that they have picked up some free advertising and, as a result, there are more people attracted to this seller that have been put off.  Alternatively, have the places where Phil has declared his theories been in the vision of his customer base?  If not, this could be another argument for letting things be.  To take action would raise this dark cloud to new heights and put the spotlight on it.

Also, since Phil has spread his voice across a fairly wide arena, if the affected parties WERE to take action - they may just target him, rather than all the places he's published on.  Phil would then have to go around and clean up - IF there were any judgement along those lines.


I welcome the opportunity for the Phil's of this world to make a noise, be civil and debate their ideas.

I don't doubt there are some curiosities that bear investigation and Phil has certainly found one.  He hasn't convinced me (yet) of the severity of the problem and I may play devil's advocate - but I would not want to shut him down.  He may be right.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on November 21, 2009, 01:15:42 PM

Quote from: Bazza on November 21, 2009, 12:57:46 PM

What is defamation?

Step 1. In the legal sense - Whatever the accused party deems worthy of a response.

Step 2. Whatever the legal processes result in (after step 1 has been invoked)


As I said, the seller may be reaping the benefit of some free advertising.

I don't know, but it's not for us to decide "defamation".

They may be miffed, but if they do nothing, is it a legal problem for others...?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *CountessA* on November 21, 2009, 01:22:28 PM

The administrators' job is to step in where real risk arises - and we do. I do caution people to think carefully before "naming", and there are specific guidelines about that, but merely saying that one thinks Person A is shill-bidding is still allowable in Australia, according to Australian legislation (Wrongs Act 1958 (VIC), Defamation Act 1974 (NSW), etc.).

Bazza, your concern is appreciated. You might like to PM me if you feel any further concerns: we do our best to act according to Australian legislation and will never ignore any valid messages communicated as appropriate via the report system here.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on November 21, 2009, 01:22:59 PM

"He May Be Right"
Starring Philip Cohen
as "The Inspector"

Coming soon on DVD

C):-{= <" i'll buy the box set! "<<

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *smee* on November 21, 2009, 01:25:01 PM

is it a comedy ???

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on November 21, 2009, 01:27:50 PM

I do caution people to think carefully before "naming"...

C):-{= <" have you seen the abuse tello is getting here lately? "<<

Quote from: smee on November 21, 2009, 01:25:01 PM

is it a comedy ???

A Comedy/Horror Documentary with interactive menu and pop-up inserts.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Bazza on November 21, 2009, 01:30:39 PM

Thankyou for your response Countessa.

LOL @ Tello.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on November 21, 2009, 01:33:53 PM

LOL @ Tello.

SCORE!  :yess:

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on November 21, 2009, 05:01:49 PM

Quote from: countessa on November 21, 2009, 09:35:34 AM

Philip, you may be confusing email addresses with IP addresses.

They are different things.

Hi Countessa,

Yes, strictly speaking, what I should have said was “That’s what internet cafés are for …” and in that context I did mean IP addresses; there is no email address involved directly in the making of shill bids. In the first place there may be 10-20 email addresses involved in the obtaining of that rotating stock of 10-20 bidding IDs that every sophisticated shill-bidding seller seems to now have (but that is another story and comes back to effective validation of all users).

In any case the smart user can manipulate IP addresses—even “paid” broadband addresses (Bigpond actually wants an additional fee for a static IP address, otherwise the IP address will be dynamic, like the bidding aliases in the UK]) and can be changed simply by switching off/on your ADSL Router and therefore IP addresses are far from being a foolproof means of data matching for such security purposes. (Why else do you think that the dynamic “Bidder x” alias, that changed every auction, was eBay’s initially preferred form of masked bidding alias?)

Validation of users is a cost that eBay is not interested in incurring as, not only would it be a direct cost, it would also cause a reduction in revenue because it would make life much more difficult for the many unscrupulous sellers from whom, I suspect, eBay presently gets much of its revenue. 

Hi Bazza,

The spreadsheet contains facts; I am quite happy to let those facts speak for themselves. Or are you, like Chris Dawson, implying that you have examined those facts but can see no suggestion of shill bidding by any of the listed sellers?

Bazza, if you are a professional seller I would be happy to analyse some of your auction sales: the spreadsheet needs some more examples of apparently scrupulous sellers to try to keep a balance (you can private message me your eBay selling ID and I will contract not to identify you regardless of the outcome). Can I be any fairer than that?

(By the way Bazza, you wouldn’t, by any chance, happen to be an acquaintance of my old friend from the Rocky Horror Show, would you?)

Hi Brumby,

Of course, you are right, when the preference is to not spotlight a matter, better to simply ignore it. When I have presented my draft articles to eBay for their comment thereon, they ignore me. They have offered feeble, devious, nonsensical responses to the media when the media has taken up the matter. But, me directly, they ignore—and I post under my own name and have been tracked down by others (including the media). Frankly, this is undoubtedly an area that eBay would prefer was left unexplored. That way they don’t have to face the perfidy of their position.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on November 22, 2009, 06:23:04 AM

1600

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Philip.Cohen on November 22, 2009, 10:04:23 AM

I notice that eBay's broken again! No lists!

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on November 22, 2009, 10:24:20 AM

I've noticed that these Boards have been Dead Air for 6+ hours, and counting....

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Centuries on November 22, 2009, 12:26:31 PM

I have an excuse Tello....It is known as SLEEP Time  :pmsl: :pmsl: :pmsl: :pmsl: :pmsl: :filenails: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: shyer on November 22, 2009, 12:53:08 PM

Quote from: Philip.Cohen on November 22, 2009, 10:04:23 AM

I notice that eBay's broken again! No lists!

Been broken for about 18 hours no search results pity the ebay seller with no shill bid on auction listing, item "sold" for a song.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: Centuries on November 22, 2009, 01:12:39 PM

It is not good!Perhaps that explains the weird problem I had ...could not get in to the site (only eBay) and wanted to look at an auction. I thought it was odd as should not have been anything to do with cache. I cleared everything a few times and finally got in...too late!

it meant I did not bid on an item, so many others may have had similar problems.

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on November 22, 2009, 02:11:08 PM

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/eBay%20nasty%20pix-gifs/43168.jpg

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: *Brum6y* on November 22, 2009, 02:12:44 PM

Quote from: Centuries on November 22, 2009, 01:12:39 PM

It is not good!Perhaps that explains the weird problem I had ...could not get in to the site (only eBay) and wanted to look at an auction. I thought it was odd as should not have been anything to do with cache. I cleared everything a few times and finally got in...too late!

it meant I did not bid on an item, so many others may have had similar problems.

Yes, Centuries, and for the 99 cent auctions with one bid that weren't accessible, there will be some ecstatic buyers and some ropable sellers ... and you can bet your boots eBay will duck any compensation questions.  I doubt they would even consider cancellation of sales - saying it was always a possibility.

When eBay talked about "innovative disruption" were they talking about innovative ways to improve the site - or - were they talkiing about innovative ways to 'cleanse' the site of all those annoying 'little' sellers (the ones that have less than 20,000 listings).

?

Title: Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
Post by: tellomon on November 22, 2009, 03:37:44 PM

"Innovative Disruption" was JD's way of saying: "Flock everybody!"

And it's stuck ever since.....

What's the surprise, ya'll???????????????????????????