GROAN...ebay do not give a rat's patootee 'cept for the mighty dollar!

[Ginar]

This is an issue that was raised directly with Simon Smith and his security cohort (can't remember his name) about 2 years ago - face to face and he could not answer the question I posed... surprise, surprise.

Bit of background
We stopped selling on ebay about a year ago now.  A lot of the goods we sold on ebay are classed as dangerous goods and therefore you are required to have a Dangerous Goods contract with Australia Post to ship these items around the country, we can not post internationally as this is illegal for these types of goods.  When we were selling on ebay we had issues with chinese sellers sending similar items into Australia via the Post, ebay had discussions with Australia Post and told them that they would shut these items down if the seller could not prove they had a contract with AP.  (I can hear you all laughing - stop it).

Well things got to the point where we just gave up and ebay were blatantly ignoring reports...

This issue has raised its ugly head again.  I still keep in touch with a few sellers on ebay and one in particular (I will call her XX) who is our competition (we are actually going to open another business together).  But, she is still selling on ebay, she holds a DG contract with AP and knows how to package and ship these goods correctly.  Aside from that AP also require that special paperwork is completed when shipping these items.  Our staff here were all put through DG packaging training through AITEC and were certified to ensure we were doing the right thing.

XX noticed the other day that there was an Australian seller on ebay in her category, health and beauty, selling a product which is an acrylic monomer.  The bottle label was in chinese and we know for a fact that this particular product coming out of China is what is , the scalled an MMA monomer (methyl methacrylate).  It is banned here in Australia for use on fingernails if the amount of MMA is over 1%, the TGA classed it as a poison, because it is bloody dangerous stuff and it stinks which is the giveaway as to what it is made from stuff from China is generally 99% MMA.  EMA (ethyl methacrylate) is safer and approved for use in the industry.  OK, back to this seller.  XX  shows me the listing on ebay and she emailed the seller and asked what the ingredients were.  The seller came back and said "I don't know, they are not listed".. so clearly she dosen't read chinese.  So, XX emailed and asked for an MSDS, seller came back and said "I don't have one for that product, but I will email my supplier and try and get one".  I said to XX, that will never happen, the chinese will not admit to selling this stuff.

So, XX emailed the seller and asked if she would express post the item (deliberately).  Seller comes back and says "YES, no problem".  (OPPS...EP...big no no).  XX pays for the goods and they arrive via express post and the seller has signed the Dangerous Goods declaration on the bag as not containing any dangerous goods.  Photos taken, then when the bag is opened the stench hit XX confirming it is an MMA monomer, and it is in an open plastic bag with a bit of newspaper around it, the packaging is totally inadequate.

I then asked XX to pull the seller's details and I rang her, she told me she was a hobby business (yeah right - with over 200 listings on ebay and 50 on oztion) and gave her a couple of options:
A. she remove all the listings for all liquid products and glues from ebay as she did not have a DG contract to post them.
B. that she could leave all her listings up and I would report her for the following:

1. ATO - report her for tax evasion under the two names she is using
2. Report her to Australia Post for falsifying a DG declaration and for posting dg's via Aust Post without a dg contract.
3. Report her to workplace health and safety for not supplying an MSDS when asked.
4. Report her to the Civil Aviation Authority (who, 2 years ago, were trying to stop these sellers posting dgs in conjunction with ebay, but we all know why this probably failed).
5. report her to NICNAS for importing and selling illegal/banned goods.

Also, the labelling on the bottles is not allowed here in Australia and this comes under the ACCC but because she is not a registered business the ACCC nor state consumer affairs can step in.

SO, I rang NICNAS to see who monitored this type of activity, they said the State Health Authorities should be monitoring it.

Why aren't Customs picking this stuff up in xray's when it comes into the country and reporting it to NICNAS which they have to do.

What more can we do and who do we go to, to try and get these types of seller's shut down, they are endangering people's lives not only through seling this stuff but shipping it as well.

This seller said to me that I was jealous and she was competition to our business, I laughed as she clearly had no idea who we were.  My angst is over the total disregard this seller has for her buyers, Australia Post and all the others that come into contact with her products.  We pay our taxes and GST, we pay super on our staff's wages, and she thinks she can fly under the radar????  So, yeah I have a couple of gripes.

Is it worth approaching a member of parliament about this and who would be the best one?  Our local is Gillard, so forget that.  I tried approaching her 2 years ago and her response was that NICNAS monitoring it - clearly they don't.  NICNAS are notified of imports via Customs, so it seems that Customs are allowing these products in without checks.

XX has reported this sellers auctions under Ebay's Hazardous Goods Policy http://help.ebay.com.au/Help/Policies/Banned/Restricted_items/Hazardous-and-perishables, but I am willing to lay down everything that Ebay will not pull these listings.

[tellomon]

8/10 Rant Score!

[*barny*]

Hi Ginar,

Tello's comment aside.... I think you should report the seller only once at first, on the most important issue... your pick off the list... Then ramp up if nothing is done.

The seller's tax affairs are an unknown to you (IMO)... they could well be declaring all profits as taxable income. I would think a report to the ATO as spiteful, and unhelpful to buyers..

 

[Ginar]

Tello - why only 8/10....c'mon give a girl a break - at least 9.5 

Barney, when I spoke to her, I mentioned the ATO because she refused to supply a Tax Invoice (I just assumed before speaking to her by the volume she was selling that she was a registered business), she got very upset and was yelling that she was a hobby business and she had already sorted this out with the ATO, she said this repeatedly and she said she doesn't have to be a registered business (what a load of codswallop).  She is using 2 different surnames as well, so there is something fishy here.  Under the ATO rulings, she is not a hobby business.  In her feedback you can see where she is buying these products overseas and then reselling them on ebay for profit.

Based on what she said, I am not going to do my BAS again and tell the ATO I am a hobby... think they will believe me?  lol

[tellomon]

Tello - why only 8/10....c'mon give a girl a break - at least 9.5

Well, now that we're talking...I don't wanna be blatently rude (previously covertly rude elsewhere), but....sometimes

....smileys are your friend.

[*barny*]

Fair enough Ginar,

That detail was not available to me before I made my comment, and I guess a report to the ATO with a view to stopping the danger to the public would be legitimate. But I still reckon that, if your report is based on trying to ensure they pay the correct amount of tax, it could be seen as spiteful.

I agree with you that public safety is the main issue..

 

[Ginar]

what did I spell incorrectly, oh, I did leave an apostrophe out of one word.  Ohhhhh... my LOL - sorry will use  smileys in future...

[tellomon]

what did I spell incorrectly, oh, I did leave an apostrophe out of one word.  

Sorry, I misspoke to you. Correction made.
My bad.

[Ginar]

Ok... so does anyone know of a "good" poli who may be prepared to have a look at this from the perspectives of selling illegal goods and ebay not monitoring or having regard for reports made to them and the posting of dangerous goods through Australia Post without a DG contract.  I know that there are a number of sellers on ebay who should be shut down for doing this as well.

[tellomon]

I know that there are a number of sellers on ebay who should be shut down for doing this as well.

Don't stop there.

Shut down eBay! 

[*smee*]

so does anyone know of a "good" poli

 

[*barny*]

Oh Gawd, a good poli.... all dead ones..

OK, Ginar, perhaps a letter to Ms Gillard, pointing out that her inaction is endangering public health, and that as she is knowingly allowing this to happen, she would be personally liable for compensation to any injured publics...

 

[tellomon]

Willful Malfeasance; Aiding and Abetting under Color of Law.

Not cool....

[cueperkins]

she said this repeatedly and she said she doesn't have to be a registered business (what a load of codswallop)

Hi Ginar... (I'd give you 9.5/10 for the OR = opening rant).....unfortunately, some States don't require businesses to register if they trade only on the net...yes I know....it's bullshit...but there you have it.

As for being a hobby business or not....well, when it comes to this type of thing, the seller doesn't get to classify themselves in any investigation...ACCC do though, and their criteria are not the same as ATO.

I'm just taking a look at the relevant regulations, and as you would already know, it's a real pass the parcel of jurisdiction....but, I found this information sheet, which basically seems to bring it back to ACCC under Consumer Product Information Standards (Cosmetics) Regulation 1991

...MMA is apparently banned in USA, Canada, NZ, but it doesn't look like it's banned here, just regulated by labeling standards....but I'm no expert on this area....I'm just looking for information that might shed light on why they are not acting...and it seems it does come back to the labeling issue and ACCC.  As I said, whether she's a registered business or not is irrespective, she's trading in a regulated substance, with substandard labeling and she's doing it on Ebay.  You might recall a recent case where ACCC ordered an ebay trader to desist in selling dodgy child car seats?...so it's not new to them by any means..i.e. dodgy product investigations originating from Ebay. 

Public Health:
MMA for use in cosmetic preparations for fingernail use is listed in
Appendix C of the Standard for the Uniform Scheduling of Drugs and Poisons (SUSDP) (No. 21, Effective date 1 June 2006) (NDPSC, 2006).

The SUSDP classifies drugs and poisons and sets out legal requirements for the labelling of drugs and poisons that are sold to the public. Appendix C lists substances, other than those included in Schedule 9 (prohibited substances), considered to be of such danger to health as to warrant prohibition of sale, supply and use.

MMA
for other uses is listed in Schedule 6 (Poison – substances with a moderate potential for causing harm, the extent of which can be reduced through the use of distinctive packaging with strong warnings and safety

Summary of Key Health Issues
The toxicity profile indicates that MMA is a severe skin irritant, has skin sensitising potential, is a respiratory irritant, and a mild eye irritant. There is no minimum sensitisation concentration – even low exposures to MMA may lead to sensitisation. Short-term small-volume dermal exposure to MMA on a repeated basis is likely to result in skin sensitisation rather than skin irritation. Symptoms of skin irritation and sensitisation may include swelling, redness, itching, burning, numbness, cracking of the skin, pain, skin rashes (including allergic contact
dermatitis). The saturated vapour pressures of MMA is much higher than the concentrations at which respiratory irritation have been observed, and accordingly there is significant risk of respiratory irritation during use without efficient ventilation systems. Symptoms may include teary eyes, sore throat, coughing, and irritation of nose or throat.
The particular hardness of artificial nails produced using MMA present a risk of physical injury from drilling and grinding of the nails, and breakage of the nail plate, and this is a strong cause for concern.

http://www.nicnas.gov.au/Publications/Information_Sheets/Existing_Chemical_Information_Sheets/ECIS_MMA_PDF.pdf

Nasty Stuff....Maybe you can find something more in this info sheet, it's quite comprehensive and will make much more sense to you than I...

This next link is the regulatory standards on labeling administered by ACCC...again, likely to be more relevant to you than I...

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/item.phtml?itemId=323594&nodeId=ddcd53add3b36e5c92230c4ca8411d4f&FELAFELEN=Cosmetics%20and%20toiletries%E2%80%94ingredient%20labelling.pdf

I'm just taking a look to see if I can find the relevant federal minister in charge of this portfolio....stand by....

[tellomon]

Cupie: you had me at "(I'd give you 9.5/10 for the OR = opening rant)", and then I lost it.
That's a lot of reading, and you know how I am about that....

[*Yibida*]

Get the movie tello, much easier to follow.....LOLOL

[cueperkins]

Tello, worry not...Ginar will be able to absorb it in seconds...it's her industry.....I just thought I'd find out what the ground rules are....just my nature.....if you want to make a complaint, take it to the horses head, not the horses arse !!!....lol....The latter being Simon Smith...lmao...

[tellomon]

Get the movie tello, much easier to follow.....LOLOL

I can get it and the T-Shirt on Amazon!

Not worried, Cue.

[cueperkins]

Tello....Look the other way....lol

Ginar...it seems to me that it's the Minister for Health that would be the one to approach in this issue, because basically, the use of this product without safety warnings, will conceivably lead to health impacts for consumers of the product.....

Have a look at this Link:

Office of Chemical Safety and Environmental Health (OCSEH)
http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/content/ohp-ocs.htm

To get ACCC to act on their own legislation....it might be Chris Bowen you'd need to contact, but I'd have to check it out......trying to find out which portfolio chemical labeling legislation falls under isn't especially easy...lol

Like a bloody Govt. maze !!!  And we're the lab rats...!!!

OK Tello....As you were !!!

[Ginar]

Found this...
Appendix F - New entry
Poison Warning Safety
Statement Directions
Ethyl methacrylate ................28, 4, 9, 23
Warning statement 28 "Over or repeated exposure may cause sensitisation"
Safety Directions: No. 4 "Avoid contact with skin"
No. 9 "Use only in well ventilated area"
No. 23 "Keep away from heat, sparks and naked flames"
Appendix C - New entry
METHYL METHACRYLATE for cosmetic use. (Appendix C is a list of substances
of such danger to health as to warrant prohibition of sale, supply and use.
MMA for cosmetic use is now banned in Australia)
The above information supplied by the National Drugs and Poisons Schedule Committee.
To view the complete document visit: www.tga.gov.au/ndpsc/record/rr200610.pdf
The decision for EMA and MMA can be found on pages 80-86

[Ginar]

Cupie, you are a legend!!

Whenever I have tried to find out who is ultimately responsible I got the run around and eventually threw my hands up in the air.  BUT, I think this time is the time to fight this one and to try and get others in the industry to back me.

I will start composing letters....

But, the the question begs... how do I get ebay to shut these listings down??

[tellomon]

As a General Rule, you should never consume things which have ingredients that you can't pronounce.

[cueperkins]

Ginar, if ACCC investigate, Ebay will be told to shut them down...just like the car seat issue.

I'll try to find a press release about that one....ACCC closed em down in a heartbeat and Ebay could do nothing but cooperate.

Also in this instance, it's a dangerous chemical...so we have to find out who presides over the chemical labeling legislation...that's the person who is responsible if it isn't administered appropriately by ACCC.  It also crosses portfolios from Customs to Chemical regulation, to Consumer Protection, and Public health.   So we have a few ministers to choose from...lol....

[Ginar]

When I tackled ebay about this 18 months or so ago, I complained about the sellers based in China shippng the stuff into Australia and using ebay as their selling platform.  Ebay basically told me they could do nothing because these sellers were overseas and they couldn't stop them selling or listing the products on the AU platform.  

This was another nail in ebay's coffin for me.

[cueperkins]

Actually Ginar....that's Customs territory....i.e. the general problem of Chinese Sellers bringing this stuff into the country even via postage services.  Do you remember the T-shirts and other products that were recalled because they contained dangerous levels of formaldehyde?...unbelievable. isn't it?  I think Customs and another Act would have stepped into that one, and probably ACCC...again, I'd have to look into it....!!!...nothing's obvious is it?..lol

You have to find examples and that's two...i.e the child safety seats being sold on ebay and formaldehyde soaked garments being sold at major retail chains?...lol

[*CountessA*]

This is a typical piece of labyrinthine not-my-fault. You're right, Ginar - eBay have a responsibility to act on information concerning importation and exportation of prohibited substances. And sending such substances improperly is gross negligence on the part of the seller, who clearly has no intention of stopping. (Sometimes one can do the wrong thing unknowingly, but when one realises it is wrong and dangerous, one stops. That's the normal and decent thing. But from what you've said here, the seller isn't taking that path...)

Let me see whether I can create a bit of journalistic interest in this. It can (sometimes, not always) help to let reluctant politicians open their portfolios with well-simulated surprise and say, "Oh! I'd better act on this!"

[*CountessA*]

... I should just mention this is an INSANELY busy week for me, so I may not be able to contact some of the people I have in mind until next Monday.

[tellomon]

 

[Ginar]

Countessa - I have been bashing my head against the brick wall for 2+ years on this issue so a few more weeks won't matter....  

Any help would be great and, of course, I am more than happy to speak to the press or anyone else to get the message out there and explain exactly what has been happening.

We had a similar issue with electrical goods being sold on ebay from China into Australia that did not meet the standards here.  Ebay shut the Chinese listed auctions on ebay.au down for a while but after about 2 months refused to do it anymore stating that because the sellers were not in Australia they were not obliged to do anything.  BUT, if an Australian seller listed the same product on .au they would shut it down and allow the chinese listings to continue.

Re Customs, they reported us to NICNAS years ago when we imported acrylic powders, so we had to pay to register with NICNAS and their website clearly states that even if you import ONE nail polish you are required to be registered with NICNAS.  NICNAS get the details from Customs when they check the imports randomly. Maybe it should be pointed out to the Gov't that they are missing out on millions of $'s by not catching up with these "wannabe" businesses importing cosmetics and reselling on ebay, that should, according to their legislations be registered to import these products.  Ebay should require sellers to prove they are registered with NICNAS or prove they have purchased the items locally, and if they are selling items classed as dangerous goods that they have a DG contract with Australia Post or whoever they are shipping with.  On all our DG listings we declared that we held a DG contract and were allowed to post these items through Aust Post.

[cueperkins]

Morning Ginar....sorry about the thread hopping, we had no choice, we were beamed up in mid post and deposited in the sin bin....It was Yib and Tello's fault actually.....hehehehe... must have been a full moon in Montello and Melbourne last night..... had to make sure chaos and mayhem didn't break out.....Yib's Chaos....Tello's Mayhem !!!  Then of course the usual tongue in cheek protest ensued, (because we don't get to stir tessa very often, so when the opportunity arose......well, we couldn't help ourselves...lol)  Back to the topic though....

Nikola Roxson is apparently one of the ministers involved in the Office of Chemical Safety and Environmental Health (OCSEH) and her contact details, along with other pollies are on the link I posted.  I'd be arguing the health effects of this product, and the total lack of cautionary labeling....as well as Ebay's disinterest in public safety in terms of allowing this product to be sold on their website, with inadequate labeling.

I haven't got time, and don't know the issue well, but you could ring ACCC personally and ask which minister presides over the Consumer Product Information Standards (Cosmetics) Regulation 1991, and then lobby him/her as well as Roxson.  It all comes back to product labeling (required by law) and the obvious negative health impacts in the absence of same....

Just imagine being a nail technician having to work with chronic exposure to this chemical?......Anyone can buy it including salon owners can't they?.......so it's definitely an issue worth mentioning to Nicola Roxson....i.e. not only is it a regulated chemical, that might negatively affect consumers, but if sold to salons with inadequate labeling, it could be the cause of a serious workplace chemical injury claim.  Prevention is the cornerstone of OH&S & Public Health....so it stands to reason that something should be done to ensure neither the public or businesses are buying this product without adequate safety warnings.  In fact, it's legislated.

That seems to be the crux of your argument..and Ebay are well aware of the issue.  If Ebay know about the risk and fail to mitigate, they run the risk of being sued as a co-defendant in any personal injury claim, along with the seller.

But....here's a thought....go and take a look at similar products being sold on Ebay UK, Canada and US.......The chemical is apparently banned in those countries...Wonder if Ebay is ignoring international safety standards????....mmmhhhh...worth checking.

I'm no expert on this issue in particular, but researching causality and redress is another thing entirely....I'm good at that...lol

PS...with regards to the DG contract...you're right...anyone selling products with MMA or any other regulated chemical...should be required to display a DG contract.....BUT.....its an entirely separate thing from the labeling issue, so it's bound to be an entirely different ministerial portfolio.  Do you know which minister presides over NICNAS?....and....is there an entirely separate minister who presides over AP Dangerous Goods contracts?.  They make it easy eh?  As I said, it's like pass the parcel of jurisdiction...lol

[Roo]

Ginar, I wish you luck with this....I have had a bit of an interest in the Dangerous Goods area on Ebay for a while...and know the feeling of hitting your head on a brick wall..lol

Most of the success I have had over the years in getting sellers to stop doing the wrong thing, was mainly through the Aust Post chanels....who do take the matter seriously.

Government Departments seem to duck shove their responsibilities because most of them really have no idea what they are doing anyway.

One avenue I have always thought about using was to contact the political rival of whoever is responsible for this issue in Government.

This could work well...especially if it was nearing election time.

The opposition just loves to gain points when political stories are headline news in the papers...

[cueperkins]

I agree roo, there's always different ways to get things done and persistence is the key I'd say...lol...they don't make it easy.   

One avenue I have always thought about using was to contact the political rival of whoever is responsible for this issue in Government.

This could work well...especially if it was nearing election time.

The opposition just loves to gain points when political stories are headline news in the papers.

A good plan, but the elected minister would argue that nobody had approached him/her first, and that would dilute the effect and the sense of outrage.  I'd be approaching those responsible first, and if they fob it off, then go to the opposition minister who can then argue that the Govt ignored it etc etc etc.

Make all complaints in writing and Pollies have to reply in writing, then there's tangible proof of apathy and mediocrity....but you have to give the current Govt a chance to address it first...JMO..

[Roo]

Of course Cupie!

But have you ever seen a Government department get it right the first time?

[cueperkins]

But have you ever seen a Government department get it right the first time?

In three decades dealing with them professionally?.....NO !!! NEVER !!! 

But when they don't abide by their own rules, you have grounds for a solid argument...nothing like highlighting mediocrity at work with proof in writing.  What I've learned is that Persistence beats Resistance !!  Squeaky wheel and all that...and then there's the media....but even then, they'd want to know what the Govt Depts and Ebay have done about it..... Nothing like tightening the noose before dropping the trap door.

 

[Ginar]

An update:

I rang Frontline yesterday which is Custom's dob in line.  Told them what the issue was, gave them all this seller's details etc so I guess now it is a matter of wait and see as far as they are concerned.

I will focus on this particular seller for the moment and as the basis for my whinge.  This seller also has over 25 listings on ebay for monogrammed airbrushed nail tips.  The tips are made in China and they are of the designers houses logos, totally counterfeit.  I reported all of these listings to ebay, so it will be interesting to see if they are removed.  The designer houses - LV, Gucci, Burberry, Chanel, YSL have never made these products.

Australia Post was also contacted (not by me) and the bag with the signed DG declaration which has been signed by the seller and the packaging is being taken into AP today for them to take the matter further, so again another wait and see issue.

I will start looking up the contacts Cupie listed and see how we go.

I had a very unfortunate incident yesterday where this seller rang me...aarrrghhhh...groan.... and she said that ebay have given her permission to sell those tips - yeah right.  But, I have ascertained that the seller is a liar and I think actually believes her own lies... good luck to her.  She refuses to remove the glues she is selling and the isopropyl alcohol/acetone from her listings.

I think that if we can stop one seller on ebay doing the wrong thing by everyone it will make it easier to stop the others and help to protect businesses in Australia.  This seller is definitely running an unregistered business and hiding from the ATO - not anymore, someone else who is involved in all this did the job on that one.  Whilst I do not like having to do these things or be part of them, I keep thinking that I have not spend mega bucks and countless hours working my butt off to get our company going to have someone come into our marketplace who does not pay gst, claims to be a hobby but on ebay in her listings states she is a business, does not pay taxes, does not follow the rules.  I will fight!

[cueperkins]

I had a very unfortunate incident yesterday where this seller rang me...aarrrghhhh...groan.... and she said that ebay have given her permission to sell those tips - yeah right.

LMAO....do they hold the copyright over the sale of these designer products do they?  

Ginar, also consider then, contacting the designer companies for the real products....they usually have a legal team set up to take on these things..i.e. fake designer goods, etc....

You mentioned:

The designer houses - LV, Gucci, Burberry, Chanel, YSL have never made these products.

Why not email them (they're sure to have an Aussie office) and send them a link to her 'fake' listings....I don't know much about this side of things, but it seems to me that these design labels issue licenses for the genuine sale of their goods don't they?  

They might apply pressure to Ebay from an industry level, and they WON'T ignore that.....bad PR...these players are HUGE and they too have massive advertising contracts with media !!!   lol...they will more than certainly investigate the seller...it's illegal to sell fake designer goods...anywhere...lol

Goliath vs Goliath

I do love an even playing field....

Are we there yet?

[ernest_price]

Trust me - those things in baggage/mail holds on aircraft are not good, let alone the personal health impacts. AusPost and the airline/freight companies will usually take things up quickly if they understand what's happening.