eBay UK sales 5x higher than eBay.com

[Philip.Cohen]

Hi Shyer,

I’ll move the debate off the ‘Media Reports” thread.

“eBay UK sales 5x higher than eBay.com”
http://tamebay.com/2009/11/ebay-uk-sales-5x-higher-than-ebay-com.html

“Well, if we can believe this statement, we can also believe that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden too. Even a child would know that such a statement is logically absurd. If ever there was an manipulator of statistics, it is this eBafia organisation. Still, the December quarter’s financials due out mid January will dispel such nonsense. And I make this comment here because Mr Dawson blocks my critical comments from appearing on his eBay-supporting blog.”

…

What they/you seem to be suggesting is that 60 million people in the UK are going to buy the same amount of goods (in dollar terms I presume) on eBay as 300 million people in the US. That is not what that headline says! Nor can I, given the absolute anonymity of the UK bidding alias, understand how UK citizens could possibly trust eBay to such an extent, even give the compactness of the geography. Indeed because of the compactness of the geography in the UK, that should actually be less of an incentive for people to use “mail order”.

We'll have to try and get "eBuster" in the UK to have a look at those statistics as time goes by. For me, it's just that that simple headline, at face value, seems to be quite absurd and could only have come straight from the eBay Dept of Spin (or one of their biased supporters).

By the way, in Australia, commercial entities in their dealings with consumers are clearly regulated by the federal Trade Practices Act; there is no problem with conflicting state laws; if there is a problem, it is the fact that eBay apparently thinks that such consumer laws do not apply to them and the ACCC (and the UK OFT) don’t seem to want to do anything to teach them otherwise.

[Bazza]

Philip, you seem to be under the impression that only US residents buy from ebay.com & and therefore only UK residents buy from ebay.co.uk. Hardly the case. ebay UK would be enjoying sales from the entire european community plus many other countries in close proximaty (russia, etc....). The other contributing factor is Amazon, Craigs List and many other competitors that ebay US has vying for the US market.

I don't think 5x is far fetched at all.

[shyer]

Hi Shyer,“eBay UK sales 5x higher than eBay.com”
http://tamebay.com/2009/11/ebay-uk-sales-5x-higher-than-ebay-com.html …
[/list]What they/you seem to be suggesting is that 60 million people in the UK are going to buy the same amount of goods (in dollar terms I presume) on eBay as 300 million people in the US. .......By the way, in Australia, commercial entities in their dealings with consumers are clearly regulated by the federal Trade Practices Act;

Philip the article is about how UK with 1/5Th the population of USA is expecting to turn over the same Christmas dollars . Thus the UK population is "5 times" more likely to use ebay to buy on than USA buyers are.

We will all have different opinions as to why that is. My personal view is many UK buyers see ebay as relatively safe a view not obviously held in America. I also feel that Australia has more the USA attitude. And a lot of that is like USA a large country physically hard to get pickups or checking bona fides of seller. UK is also under one legal system. USA like Australia is broken into many states and legal systems and big distances.

If we did not like using ebay we would not talk about ebay. The problem for most of us Chris I suspect included, is we can all see the potential for ebay style trades. That is currently not happening because ebay is the only large player and is greedy for fees today. Not trying to play the long game.

[shyer]

Phillip also the word is commercial I will stick my neck out and say in my personal experience most ebay sales are not commercial entities. The competition is too severe, margins too thin, to pay ebay and Pay$pal fees. And you need a correct name and address even if you do buy from a commercial entity something again ebay is not only lax about it gives buyers near zero information.

When I sell am deluged with pick up requests not to avoid a $20 postage cost but because buyers are nervous. I have feedback over 99% and average 4.9 DSRs , lots of buyers do not blink when the item is $20, when it is $1000 different glasses are now on. As I have written before here post office COD calms most of them.

If this 5 times prediction is proven near correct I would love to know why ebay uk has the market share it does.

[Philip.Cohen]

Bazza,

Amazon also operates out of the UK. Do you think that it then could possibly be said that “Amazon UK’s sales 5x higher than Amazon US”? I think not. Could it even be said that “Amazon UK’s sales equal Amazon US”? I doubt it.

With respect to international sales out of eBay UK, why would anyone on the continent buy from eBay UK when one, everything is dearer out of the UK and two, the European eBay sites don’t have the absolutely anonymous bidding aliases for shill bidders to hide behind?

Are you actually suggesting that eBay UK’s international sales would be greater than eBay US’s international sales? I hope not, because that would simply be an absurd statement. Everything is dearer out of the UK than out of the US. Do a Google search for any consumer item and compare the prices between the UK and US retailers.

Sorry to be so skeptical but I still think “5x”, whatever it is supposed to mean, is straight out of eBay’s Dept of Spin.

Shyer,

I too will eagerly look forward to seeing if this prediction is correct. How can anyone in the UK believe eBay is “safe”? Maybe you are right; they apparently have not complained about the devious absolute anonymity of their bidding aliases. Have they all been lobotomized?

When one realized that the devious “Bidder x” alias was introduced world wide and then retreated from everywhere else but in the UK; indeed the UK was initially using the form of alias now in use in the rest of the eBay world (“a***b”) and then did the reverse switch and changed to “Bidder x”, you have to wonder, maybe the average “Pom” is naïve enough to trust eBay.

When I used the term “commercial” I was referring principally to eBay; eBay is clearly a “commercial” operation. Any seller (even one sans an ABN) earning an income from regular trading on eBay would also be considered a commercial operation.

Excuse the repetition but: Sorry to be so skeptical but I still think “5x”, whatever it is supposed to mean, is straight out of eBay’s Dept of Spin.

[mandurahmum]

I love the fact that my bidding activity is hidden - it is no one elses business what I am bidding on.  I also hated that I used to get offers from other sellers wanting to sell me items that I had not won.

I am sorry Philip - but to infer that buyers who did not complain must have been lobotomised is offensive.

[*Yibida*]

I love the fact that my bidding activity is hidden - it is no one elses business what I am bidding on.  I also hated that I used to get offers from other sellers wanting to sell me items that I had not won.

I am sorry Philip - but to infer that buyers who did not complain must have been lobotomised is offensive.

Hi mum, I'm open minded and undecided { my life's story ~ LOL }  but if you made your feedback private would that stop the offers?...

[Bazza]

Philip. No, I don't think Amazon UK sales would be anywhere near Amazon U.S. sales but that's not really the question is it. With regard to international sales from the UK and the reason ebay UK does so well, you need to factor in the number of sellers based outside the UK (worldwide, incl U.S.), who list on ebay UK. Not just UK based sellers.

ebay U.S. would suffer significantly because of location (overseas shipping costs for every item sold outside of north America). While prices may be lower in the U.S., this is negated by transport costs. When you consider the plethora of european countries and Russia which surround the UK, it's not difficult to see why ebay UK is more attractive to those buyers. Absurd? Not at all.

[mandurahmum]

I do now have private feedback for that very reason.  I only change it to public when I am bidding on something from overseas - so that when I ask if they will send it over here - they can assess my feedback and see that I am a quick payer etc.

[tellomon]

.....and see that I am a quick payer etc.

It's good to know that I'm not the 'only one'.

Overall Excellent Ebay Transaction!!! Lighting Fast Payment!!!

Super quick payment. Highly recommended.

This buyer rocks!!!! A+++++++++++

Tello does it again!

eBay POWER BUYER ------->

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=898sarahg&ftab=AllFeedback

[Philip.Cohen]

Bazza,

I suggest you have another look at the cost of international postage from the UK!

[Bazza]

Philip. I think I can safely say it would cost less to send a 2 kg parcel from the UK to Germany than the U.S. to Germany??? What's the total population of Europe/Russia? Considerably greater than 300 million, I suspect.

[Philip.Cohen]

Bazza,

The last time I looked, Germany had its own German language eBay site; why would the Germans not buy and sell on their own site? France also has its own French language site ... I can't recall all the European sites, but why would any of these non-English speaking people from continental Europe buy from the UK rather than their own-language eBay site? Particularly when anyone with half a brain knows that, with the absolutely anonymous bidding aliases in effect on the UK site, they are likely to be cheated by a shill-bidding seller?

[*CountessA*]

For people wanting to buy items that are published by a German Verlag, of course Amazon.de or eBay.de are the places to look. Postage from Germany is slower, more problematic and more costly when it comes to eBay sellers from Germany to Australia, and that's just one example.

However, UK sellers offer different things. The range of items is quite different, and the UK prices for UK produced items is better than the Fr or De prices for UK produced items. Postage from the UK is better than postage from Germany and Italy by a long shot.

If the contention is that sales on eBay.uk are going to be of a certain value, that needs to be looked at without preconception. Is the statement true or not true? We can't approach that question with honesty unless we assume it is in a state of "innocence" until we examine it. Presupposing it's not true, merely because eBay are assumed to be telling lies, is as biased as presupposing it must be true, merely becuase eBay are assumed to be telling the truth.

I would not accept your statement that someone "[is] likely to be cheated by a shill-bidding seller" merely because eBay UK has anonymous bidding. The opportunity may be there - and I know this is a subject dear to your heart, Philip - but we can't really close the gap between possibility and actuality merely by pointing to the possibility.

As an example, I recently bid on a particular German CD. The bidding went higher than I thought it would, and I was outbid on my maximum. I hadn't set up a snipe bid because I had to ensure I got that CD - if not from that seller, then from another. All right; being outbid, I shrugged my shoulders and bought the CD from a BIN listing for a little more than my maximum bid on the other listing. I was willing to pay a little extra because I'd dealt with that seller before and knew that his service was good. FAST postage to Australia from Germany (which is, as I've indicated, a bit of an exception from German sellers)... About an hour after the first item's bidding ended, I received a SCO from the first seller. Interesting! Could I assume the seller had been shill-bidding and been too clever for his own boots, outbidding my highest bid? Or could I assume the seller had more than one of the same item, and was using the SCO (quite legitimately) to move the second CD? I tend to think the latter is true, but in any case, it didn't matter, because as soon as I'd been outbid, I moved on to another seller.

As eBay becomes more and more a place where every seller sells similar items, you're going to see this happen increasingly, I think. No one's going to hang around for one seller's item when another seller has the same thing for a similar price. SCOs, except in the case of unique items or incredible bargains, might become largely irrelevant...

[Philip.Cohen]

Hi Countessa,

My apologies to all and sundry.

First of all, I have leant to be totally biased about eBay: I do not accept anything that comes out of the mouths of eBay or any of  its “gatekeepers” (such as Tamebay) as being anything but self-serving spin—if not outright lies.

We are here talking about a statement that (apparently) is meant to suggest that this Xmas eBay UK sales will equal US sales. The point someone then made was that the UK figures could be so great because of all the purchases made from continental Europe. I say that is not logical for the reasons previously stated. Nor has it got anything to do with purchases made from Australia, which in 99% of cases, will be cheaper from the US.

On the matter of shill bidding, my research indicates (at least to me) that outside of the UK, sophisticated shill bidding is simply rampant. That is, in the rest of the eBay world where bidding patterns over multiple auctions can be evaluated, the gap between “possibility” and “actuality” appears to be small. It follows then that in the UK, where the form of bidding alias makes it impossible to do any such analysis of bidding patterns over multiple auctions, the incidence of sophisticated shill bidding will be greater—if not much greater. That is simply a logical conclusion.

Are you actually suggesting that shill bidding is not likely to be greater in such circumstances? For to do so is to likewise hypothesize that the seller who uses private listings is not doing so to hide his shill bidding, but for some benign purpose.

If the first seller did not mention in his listing that he had multiple copies of the item then in all probability the SCO was the result of a failed attempt to shill bid you higher (the SCO mechanism is almost as dodgy as the private listing). But what does that prove other than to, once again, indicate that there is a real problem with unscrupulous sellers and that eBay cannot be other than knowingly facilitating their activities.

Your last paragraph simply explains why Amazon is getting to eat eBay’s cake too.

[*smee*]

If the first seller did not mention in his listing that he had multiple copies of the item then in all probability the SCO was the result of a failed attempt to shill bid you higher

in my opinion that is  a ludicrous comment to make ... why would someone who is auctioning something let it be known that he has multiple items the same ?

the whole idea from a sellers point of view when  auctioning something is to get the highest possible price. so its uniqueness becomes important ....
why would he indicate that underbidders will be offered a SCO ... that only encourages people to be the underbidders in order to get an indentical product cheaper ..... as a seller you would try and encourage people to bid .....

you make some very very strange comments Phil that indicate that you either dont think things through or you just have no idea

 

[Philip.Cohen]

For the same reason that sellers used to so state when multiple-item listings were available—until eBay decided that they were missing out on a listing fee for any subsequent sales and, being so desperate for a few extra pennies of revenue, did away with multiple-item listings ...

And for the same reason sellers now have multiple identical listings for the same items ...

Do tell me what was/is so ludicrous about those situations?

[shyer]

For the same reason that sellers used to so state when multiple-item listings were available—until eBay decided that they were missing out on a listing fee for any subsequent sales and, being so desperate for a few extra pennies of revenue, did away with multiple-item listings ...

Phillip multi item listings are still available as BIN and if wanted best offer. It is only dutch auctions that have gone. SCO are NOT dodgy many sellers will auction one item only to test the market and if happy with price offer it to as many underbidders as they want. Common procedure in real auctions as well

[*smee*]

multiple item listings are still available but for BIN listings

and yes some people do place a multiple number of listings on auctions but that is usually only in categories where there are lots of similar items its to get their market share and also auction listings rise up the list based on time remaining so those sellers want their items to be constanly displayed on the page and those that list that way you will find generally list at a starting price which equates to a reseve price or what their BIN price would be .. apart from asian sellers you would rarely see a seller list multiple listings for same item in auction format starting at 99c .

if it was a scarce item or a hard to obtain item then they would be doing themselves a dis service to list more than 1 identical item at a time at similar prices

my point being Phil is that this is a silly statement ..in all probability the SCO was the result of a failed attempt to shill bid you higher
yes its a possibility but to say in all probability is just stretching the bow too far in my opinion

[*Yibida*]

Your right smee..

""if it was a scarce item or a hard to obtain item then they would be doing themselves a dis service to list more than 1 identical item at a time at similar prices""

When I used to sell if I had multiple items and I knew were hard to get.. I listed them one at a time till they were all gone...made good money that way too..back in the good ol days...LOL

[*smee*]

yes Yibs thats because you understand how an auction works and if you only need to get or are happy to get say $100 for that item and the winning bider has bid above that and if the underbidder is either above or on that mark then there is nothing wrong with offering the underbidder a SCO if you wanted,  doesnt mean that in all probability you shilled does it ?

but if they were the only 2 bidders and you listed 2 identical items at the same time starting at $90 ... how much would you have got for each item ????

or if you listed only one at $90 but said in listing ... oh by the way dont worry I have another one if you mis out on this one do you think the 2 bidders would compete so much ??? I dont think so TIM

[mandurahmum]

If the first seller did not mention in his listing that he had multiple copies of the item then in all probability the SCO was the result of a failed attempt to shill bid you higher (the SCO mechanism is almost as dodgy as the private listing). But what does that prove other than to, once again, indicate that there is a real problem with unscrupulous sellers and that eBay cannot be other than knowingly facilitating their activities.

A lot of sellers of mint sets do have more than 1 of the item they are listing - and from my experience they dont mention it - they dont have too.  If my bid is not the winning one - but still a decent price - I often get a second chance offer.  It has nothing to do with shill bidding - it has to do with the right price.

I am sure you think I am wrong Phillip - but you are not the only one who can spot shill bidding a mile away - I have shown you a few - and you know I was right. 

[Philip.Cohen]

OK, I’ll stand corrected on that comment.

I still don’t like SCOs; the only two I have ever received have both been questionable: one definitely a failed shill attempt (that eBay did nothing about) and the other with a “buyer did not pay” excuse much to quickly after the end of a private listing on which I had placed one unsuccessful bid (I would never enter a bidding competition on a private listing). Not only that but he wanted my exposed underbidder bid price rather than the price I would have paid had I been the winner; so even had it been legit the asking price was not appropriate.

Think about that: a 99c start; I place a $10 bid; a higher bidder (almost immediately) does not pay and the seller then offers me an SCO for $10 when, had there been no higher bidder, I would have won at 99c. Tough on the seller I know but that is the risk sellers take with 99c starts, unless they intend to make their own shill bid to ensure a higher price.

[mandurahmum]

Actually Phillip - you might not have won at 0.99 - because you dont know who else would have bid if the "shill bidding" was not involved.  Someone else may have bid up to $10.00 but did not because it was already at that price.

[eBuster]

Ebay.com lists about 2.5m items a day and eBay.co.uk lists about 2m items a day as can be seen here http://www.ebuster.co.uk/CategoryData/CatsMainList.aspx but if we are talking about the value of the items listed then the UK is well ahead of the USA due to the value of property listed on eBay.co.uk that can come in at a whopping £6.5bn a day and is all listed by the same seller that was unkown a few months ago.

after property is taken out it leaves £100-200m a day for everything else including cars and for this reason property has been excluded from the main report.

The figures shown by eBay for large categories are often way out and this can be seen if you got to the first page of 'Books Fiction' and then look at the 'Results Found' and divide this number by 15 (Average number of days listed) and then divide the results by 200 (Items per page) and you are left with a number that will be something like 800 pages for todays listings !. Page 800 will not exist with 200 items per page but if you edit the URL so it points to page 250 then you will see the listings are all about 24 hours from now so the bottom line is eBay has over stated the number by a factor or three.

Since 99% of feedback is in the range of 97-100% and everyone has 4.65778 gold stars it not easy to see who the good sellers are unless you calculate just how many items that they list are turned into actual sales and the results for many of eBay top listers that are listing 100,000s items a week is often down................... down ................ down at .................0.5% with a few sellers such as 'Buy' often coming in at over 100% ! Thats right for each listing they often sell more than one item and gain one point and the points out number the total number of listings.

Where the USA does beat the UK hands down is on the actual sales rating as shown here
http://www.ebuster.co.uk/BigSellerReport/BigSellerReport.aspx

Facts are the number of listings on eBay is going up but the number of buyers is going down dispite the recession and this could be seen in that eBays YoY profit as report last month went down 29%.






 

[eBuster]

eBay says it has 2.5m fiction books listed in the UK but if you take 2.5m and divide it by 15 for the average number of days listed and then divide the results by 200 items per page then eBay should have about 833 pages of fiction books each day if you order the results by ending soonest.

You won't find page 833 but you will find page 250 and the ending time for the books on that page will be about 23 hours from now.

Clearly eBay is cooking the books and will not give a reson when asked.



To think some people trust them

[*Brum6y*]

yes Yibs thats because you understand how an auction works and if you only need to get or are happy to get say $100 for that item and the winning bider has bid above that and if the underbidder is either above or on that mark then there is nothing wrong with offering the underbidder a SCO if you wanted,  doesnt mean that in all probability you shilled does it ?

but if they were the only 2 bidders and you listed 2 identical items at the same time starting at $90 ... how much would you have got for each item ????

or if you listed only one at $90 but said in listing ... oh by the way dont worry I have another one if you mis out on this one do you think the 2 bidders would compete so much ??? I dont think so TIM

Exactly right Smee.  I have been putting together some ideas about an FAQ item on SCO's and these two points are a couple of some very real motivators for a seller to only declare one of an item.

Certainly, Phil's shilling interpretation is a possibility, but being offered a SCO within minutes of the end of an auction is NOT, in itself, suspicious.  My seller friend has done it when an auction has reached a very good price and they do have another one or two of an item - and they do it ASAP in order to 'strike while the iron is hot' as well as minimise the possibility of the underbidder buying elsewhere - as Countesssa has done.

Mind you, when an excuse is given of a 'non-payer' in the same time-frame, I'd be giving Phil a little more room for his argument.