Oz Round Table
The Oz Round Table boards => The Round Table => Topic started by: *wheels* on June 27, 2009, 10:37:58 AM
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eBay buyers fleeced by teenage internet girl
Online auction and selling site eBay is unable to explain how the girl managed to defraud users of up to $44,000.
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,27574,25694782-3102,00.html
from that article:
eBay spokesman Daniel Feiler said the fact that sellers had to register with Paypal and provide bank account details ensured sellers provided proof of identification to the site.
It was up to parents to ensure children were properly monitored when using online sites and users needed to protect themselves by using suggested safe payment methods such as Paypal, he said.
Mr Feiler said a system of providing 100 points of identification for registration as demanded by some sites would not stop online fraud.
"The best way to eliminate problems is to monitor activity," he said.
"Normally we can spot when there is trouble and we can shut it down and often we alert the police because we know what is normal activity."
He said buyers should always use Paypal because they were protected from fraud for up to $20,000.
Is this correct?
Do eBay monitor activity, or only rely on members reports of fraud?
Do eBay 'often' alert the Police? I was told it was up to me to contact the Police, due to privacy concerns.
Are buyers always protected from fraud for up to $20,000? I thought item listings from new sellers with less than 50 feedback only offered up to $400 protection.
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Hi wheels, you read my mind...Ive tracked down the precedental fraud study done in 2006 that literally predicted this issue to get out of control. It also made some fairly prophetic recommendations which of course, Ebay summarily ignored. I am emailing the link to Choice and the site that published this article....this type of Ebay related fraud is not exactly new?
Oh and by the way 4000 were defrauded in the EBS debacle...2400 hundred used paypal, DDD netted over a 1000 and LI, Well, Wheels, you'd know the numbers better on that particular debacle I'm sure. And even now...Danny still 'likes to watch'
100 PT SELLER ID VERIFICATION IS THE ONLY WAY TO PREVENT or at the very least, POLICE FRAUD IN THE FIRST PLACE, AND DEFINITELY THE ONLY ANSWER TO RECIDIVIST FRAUD !!
Ebay need to finally get that....anyone interested in the executive summary on that precedent study I mentioned above, and which ABC were provided with, and quoted in their feature story, just click on the link.....I have the full study, if anyone wants to read the entire thing......very long winded though this factual stuff is....lol.
http://www.comslaw.org.au/Portals/0/GoingGoingGoneEXECUTIVESUMMARY26.7.06.pdf
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Hi Wheels. That's an interesting article. A real test case for promoting the use of PayPal.
This is an interesting quote too:
"I did everything eBay suggested I do to protect myself but eBay have completely abrogated themselves of any responsibility on this," Ms Eason said.
No, she didn't.
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That's right Riff. I learned my lesson and would never buy expensive items without using PayPal linked to my creditcard, so if I ever have to make a claim for refund I should be adequately covered.
But am I reading the PayPal Buyers Protection amount correctly? The way I read it, buyers are protected for a max of $400 on items from sellers with feedback of less than 50.
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I don't want to get into an anti or pro PayPal debate here, like I said, I prefer PayPal, but I understand and accept that others prefer not to use it. ;D I have one more question.
eBay spokesman Daniel Feiler said the fact that sellers had to register with Paypal and provide bank account details ensured sellers provided proof of identification to the site.
Is this correct? Do sellers HAVE to register with PayPal prior to listing an item?
I have read posts on the eBay boards of buyers saying that sellers do not have a PayPal account. Are the sellers just telling them that to avoid PayPal fees? If it is true, how do sellers open a PayPal account linked to a bank account linked to a fraudulent name used on a selling ID?
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Wheels, where did you see that?
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the Buyers Protection?
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Yes, Wheels you have to have a PayPal account to sell on eBay unless you are selling in the exempt categories.
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If you are are looking at Exhibit A in the user agreement:
This Policy applies to all payments effected using PayPal prior to 12.01am AEST on 17 June 2008.
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Thanks Riff, I hadn't read that bit! I was always cautious about buying off ID's with feedback less than 50 (and always wondered how they are supposed to build up their sales, and feedback, with a max limit of $400) ;D
So this is the current cover:
# Amounts that you may receive under PayPal’s Buyer Protection Policy.
IMPORTANT: For purchases made on www.ebay.com.au there is a maximum discretionary payment amount of $20,000.00 AUD.
PayPal is not obliged to pay any amount at all, or if it does decide to make a payment, to pay the maximum amount set out – you may, at PayPal's discretion, receive a payment which is less than the maximum of $20,000.00 AUD, but PayPal will not pay more than the maximum discretionary amount.
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Paypal is not a preventative measure for fraud, it merely serves to make fraud functional and profitable to ebay....meanwhile it doesn't seem to matter that fellow Aussies get ripped off by sellers who are untraceable and largely unaccountable?
The fraud originates with the seller, (every single time) not the payment method and Ebay are negligent in their duty of care to consumers in NOT doing anything to verify who their sellers are, and making them accountable for their actions....at least then, police have a more direct avenue to pursue fraud charges...and dodgy sellers with 750 negs like EBS could be shut down before they rack up another 3200 victims. As it is...it's anonymous sellers, anonymous buyers, and an absent landlord.
Fraud is only addressed via active risk management...and Paypal's buyer protection is Discretionary not assured.... best not to forget that. See their UA for further clarification of your consumer rights...or the lack thereof...as the case actually is. And wheels you are right...this fraudster had managed to set the whole thing up under Ebay's nose?...a 14 year old no less?.....lmao.
Then ask yourself, what possible excuse Ebay could have for enabling fraudsters via their indifference, to engage in recidivist fraud in the first place, as easily as shooting fish in a barrel? Anonymous access to a nation wide pool of potential victims...and hey don't worry if you get defrauded...it's all part of the fun..!!
If they verified sellers, then they'd have a harder time signing on again and netting more unsuspecting victims while Ebay 'Watch'. People would also think twice about committing fraud when accountability for same is impossible to avoid...you do the crime, you do the time.
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Yes, Wheels that outlines the current coverage if using PayPal. I have yet to hear of any legitimate claim where PayPal have used that discretion to avoid payment of a claim.
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I've heard of, and in fact facilitated plenty of appeals against same actually....in fact I researched viable redress for thousands of fraud victims way back in early 2008, letting consumers know that they could seek redress against Paypal with BFSO. Not that paypal advised any of their account holders of this mind you. Ironically, this was so they could have Paypal's negative discretion reviewed and overturned objectively.
If you are going to quote EBS....make sure you're accurate...once again the seller, (a privileged cornerstone of the community powerseller actually) was responsible for voiding buyer protection by misquoting pre-sale terms on that particular fraud......which of course, ebay don't monitor or police before allowing sellers to advertise the Paypal protection logo. Bit of a consumer suck in right?
So, if buyers don't know Paypal's terms and conditions backwards, they're literally stuffed. No consumer protection tribunal or court would uphold that in the real world and thankfully, neither did BFSO in most cases.
And for all of you who have been duped by Paypal's endless twists and turns......make sure you remember that BFSO is your only redress...whether a buyer or seller it doesn't matter...you are a consumer in the eyes of the BFSO, and Paypal is the service provider so the case is against Paypal if they refuse to provide objective dispute resolution.
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Oh, and isn't there another waiver in Paypal's buyer protection that says something along the lines of there having to be funds in the sellers account that Paypal can access for refund?
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It is all very confusing - eBay needs to update their links and pages
This page says buyers have PayPal Buyer Protection of up to $1500 with sellers with 50 feedback and 98% positive.
http://pages.ebay.com.au/paypal/buyerprotectionprogram.html
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It is all very confusing - you got that straight...lol
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Yes, they do Wheels. That's certainly not in their best interests is it. The tiered coverage went out with the new buyer protection policy.
I agree Cupie. EBS as the seller were responsible for the fraud committed.
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...and ebay do nothing to police monitor or verify dodgy sellers. But they are nonetheless as responsible for allowing it to happen as it did.
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........and eBay offer protection through a safe payment method........but ya can't get through to everybody........so, ya get what we had here...............
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"Normally we can spot when there is trouble and we can shut it down and often we alert the police because we know what is normal activity."
You mention EBS Cupie. :) Ebay certainly did act quickly to shut that down, didn't they? If it hadn't been for the more aware members who used this site at the time..... goodness knows how many more victims there would have been. But then - wasn't a remarkable thing how the members who offered support and assistance came under fire! This thing was allowed to continue for a month after they were aware of the problem. Remember the terms...... 30 days delivery...... 20 days protection by PP? Wasn't that outside the Eb terms and conditions to start with?
I'm sure that they (Eb) do identify problems and shut them down..... but how many times has their 'noticing' been directly attributed to one or more of their members.
He said buyers should always use Paypal because they were protected from fraud for up to $20,000.
Well, I believed that too. Thank goodness for being able to link a credit card that offers a genuine guarantee as opposed to a discretionary one!
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My apologies, I thought this thread was about buyers who paid via Bank Deposit and got ripped-off.
I'll leave ya to it.................................
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Riff,
Did you hear what actually happened to the people who paid by DD? I have heard nothing at all.
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No, r330 I've heard nothing about those buyers that used DD. Not such a good outcome I imagine.
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It's I who owe you an apology here Riff - you're quite right.... the thread is about DD. I reacted to the aspect of buyer protection.
I still regularly use Paypal - except where the seller is known to me, and I'm able to save them some costs in fees.... DD suits best in this case. It would be nice if the invoicing had the ability to have a miscellaneous field - where the buyer had the option of adding a few dollars to offset the cost of the seller. I don't mind paying my way..... nor for the convenience offered.
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It is all very confusing - eBay needs to update their links and pages
This page says buyers have PayPal Buyer Protection of up to $1500 with sellers with 50 feedback and 98% positive.
http://pages.ebay.com.au/paypal/buyerprotectionprogram.html
That page is outrageously out of date. I checked in Google and there are no pages that link to it.
How exactly did you find it?
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Oh, and isn't there another waiver in Paypal's buyer protection that says something along the lines of there having to be funds in the sellers account that Paypal can access for refund?
Yes - but only if it's an OFF-eBay transaction, or one where the buyer pays but doesn't specifically link the payment to a eBay item.
PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy:
This policy applies to purchases that are made on non-eBay websites, or eBay websites that do not offer policies similar to this PayPal Buyer Protection Policy. This policy only applies to claims of “item not received”.
In order to be considered for the PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy, your purchase must have all of the characteristics set out in paragraph 3 below, and you must comply with all of the buyer responsibilities in paragraph 5 below.
IMPORTANT: If you are eligible under PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy, PayPal may try to recover your payment from the seller, but recovery of your payment whether in whole or in part is not guaranteed. Your potential recovery is limited only to the amounts that PayPal is able to recover from the seller.
https://www.paypal.com/au/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/policy_buyer_complaint-outside#complaint-policy
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Llama,
it's the linkthrough from the Community Page
http://hub.ebay.com.au/community
on the right, in the 'What's New' ;D section,
click on
Everyone's doing it! Simple and safe shopping on eBay. Click here for more information
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Hi r3830...funny thing, I was thinking of you when I posted that...lol....to be precise, ebay shut down ebs on 30/7/08, but by that stage, the horse had bolted to Melbourne and was lining up for the Melbourne cup with winning odds....lmao.
They also owed ebay some outrageous amount of money for fees i.e. approx $150,000 or thereabouts....and STILL, they allowed them to trade either insolvent or fraudulently. I contacted ASIC at the time and asked them about their views on companies trading insolvent on Ebay's marketplace?...not covered under their legislation, which is not to say that it won't be in the future. After all, ebay was facilitating a company that was either defrauding consumers or trading insolvent....either way, it's not very responsible of them is it?
The only reason Paypal bit the bullet on that one was to avoid any further negative press...AND...many consumers who had lodged complaints prior to Paypal coming to the party, had already had Paypal's decision overturned by BFSO......
BTW...the dd customers had no real means of redress, because fraud is functional on ebay and sellers unaccountable (as is ebay)....some may have lodged fair trading complaints and been refunded by Ebay, but I'd have to go and check the data bases of fair trading/consumer affairs in each state to say confidently that any were refunded. There were also claims on the administrator appointed to clean it all up but I have no idea how it eventuated. Ebay was the second on the list of applicants for reimbursement though...to hell with the DD victims right? How silly of them to engage in 'extreme consumerism' and use b/deposit...lol
Oh, and reading over this article again, it mentions a lot more than DD...seems to mention numerous aspects of buying on Ebay....anyway..JMO
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Not at all r3830, buyer protection is an important issue. You're very generous in that you would offer to pay the extra.....but most buyers would see that as a surcharge they don't need to pay.
G'day Llama.
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Llama,
it's the linkthrough from the Community Page
http://hub.ebay.com.au/community
on the right, in the 'What's New' ;D section,
click on
Everyone's doing it! Simple and safe shopping on eBay. Click here for more information
I've just reported that page to eBay - that info is literally 2 years old, if not more.
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It would be nice if the invoicing had the ability to have a miscellaneous field - where the buyer had the option of adding a few dollars to offset the cost of the seller. I don't mind paying my way..... nor for the convenience offered.
I doubt that they would add a misc field. But I pay extra quite often... just ask the seller to re-invoice adding a bit on the postage to cover themselves.
Most sellers say no, because it's such an insignificant amount... 30c plus 2.4% on a $20 sale is only 78 cents, and on $50 it's only $1.50 - which is hardly worth the time to re-invoice.
The only times I have ever been ripped off on eBay is when I've paid by Bank Deposit. My 85 year old mother got done last year for over $300 on an eBay purchase of Microsoft Office which she paid by DD. I can assure you she is extremely savvy and persistant, and has lodged police reports, contacted and made official complaint to fraud squad etc... and there is no refund and no way of getting one.
Paypal may not be perfect, and their contracts are a minefield of loopholes and legal jargon - but they do protect the consumer infinitely more than the Banks do for direct deposit payments.
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Do eBay monitor activity, or only rely on members reports of fraud? - Wheels, from what Mr Feiler and others have stated publicly, eBay rely largely upon members reporting fraud. (Then he turns around and contradicts himself, or mitigates what he's said.) That's why extreme_redeye, for instance, maintains a running list of suspicious items from accounts that seem to be hijacked, reporting them to Trust & Safety on an alarmingly regular basis. If he and the various members who help him weren't doing that, there would be a great many more instances of undetected fraud.
Frankly, I don't think eBay monitor activity which might be fraudulent. I think there are a couple of automatic protocols in place - some sellers will have experienced them. These protocols automatically limit a seller's ability to list if they add a "designer" item to their listings, or start selling things they've not sold before, or start selling high-value items in some quantity. That doesn't help with a great many fraudsters - who know exactly how to manage this. Apparently these well-aware fraudsters build up feedback rapidly, may start listing from China (with "wow that's a lot cheaper!" prices + postage that might not be quite as cheap) or use a hijacked account to list from Australia, and bypass those rudimentary automatic protocols.
Nothing that eBay had in place "detected" EBS... and that's just one large-scale example. I think it is fair to say that eBay don't physically monitor activity. I don't believe they have staff whose task it is to monitor for suspicious listings. I believe that eBay has simply set up some automatic bots which automatically limit sellers when one of the protocols is triggered (and many of these sellers are legitimate and are deeply annoyed at having their accounts sanctioned, without even knowing WHY).
Do eBay 'often' alert the Police? I was told it was up to me to contact the Police, due to privacy concerns. - Wheels, I don't believe that eBay often alert the police. I cannot prove this. I can only say that every individual I know who's been a victim of fraud on eBay has actually had the greatest difficulty in getting eBay to do ANYTHING, and none of these individuals were told "We've contacted the police about this fraud". It would be remarkable if all the defrauded people I know and know of (and there are more than 100) are exceptions to the rule of eBay "often" alerting the police. I know even of two instances where eBay were reluctant to release any data to the police, not in refusing to do so but in spinning out the process so that the police sent three "reminders" for the information over a 4-6 month period.
Are buyers always protected from fraud for up to $20,000? I thought item listings from new sellers with less than 50 feedback only offered up to $400 protection. As long as your purchase is "eligible", it's covered up to $20,000. As Riff mentioned, you might be looking at the clause related to purchases made prior to June 2008. But check the eligibility criteria - it doesn't cover pre-sale items that won't be supplied for more than 20 days; it doesn't cover vehicles and other vehicular items; it doesn't cover non-physical items; and so on. Excepting that, yes - buyers are covered for up to $20,000. Oh, lest I forget... of course this only applies if you open a dispute within 45 days. You may not open a dispute if a) you don't often buy online and are unaware of a 45-day deadline; b) your seller explains by email several times and very convincingly why there is a delay and to please be patient; c) you don't notice the item has a problem until 45 days have passed; and so on. PayPal won't let you open a dispute AT ALL if it's so much as 1 second past the 45-day period. I am perfectly serious - one second will make the difference.
But IF your transaction is eligible and IF you open a dispute within the required timeframe, you can be reimbursed. (PayPal say it's at their discretion, so they do have a get-out clause, but so far they appear to be refunding, and when they don't it's usually down to their saying the claim is rejected under the wrong PayPal policy.) Note, though, that it doesn't cover return postage of an item not as described, and this is a problem when the postage is as costly or more costly than the item itself - as I established with the "Italian seller" problem I have.
You mentioned sellers being unable to sell on eBay unless they have a PayPal account. NOT TRUE. A seller is perfectly able to list an item without actually having a PayPal account. They are able to tell the buyer they have problems at the moment with their PayPal account so please pay some other way, or some other excuse or encouragement towards another payment method, but of course if the buyer insists on using PayPal, the seller is up the doodad and can be reported. Perhaps what Riff means is that the seller is obliged to OFFER PayPal on the listing, but eBay don't at present cross-reference seller information with PayPal account holders.
I agree with Cupie on the issue of ID verification, and can't for the life of me see why eBay or PayPal considers this a problem. I've talked elsewhere about Paypal piggy-backing onto the verification gained by banks, and the problems this raises. Oils ain't oils - and banks ain't banks. Australian banks are far more secure than US banks, for instance... and let's not talk about other online bank accounts on offer by far less scrupulous banks. A bank's security and protocols are defined under a regulating body and fall under the guidelines established by that regulating body. If the regulating body is dubious, slack, insufficient, not enforced, doesn't exist or is able to be ignored, then banks under that regulating body offer an appalling lack of security.
This is also why some individuals are highly dubious about using PayPal. I know we're all aware by now that PayPal doesn't come under the regulating body that governs Australian banks... Anyway, that's another issue. On the subject of paying someone of whom one has no personal knowledge, no way of gaining redress if the deal goes sour, etc., I agree PayPal is the only method that offers compensation on eBay. eBay have set it up in that way. (If only eBay would allow merchants who have merchant accounts to offer card payments! I'd be happy to pay that way.)
Getting back to the article... "She believes the online auction site is not prepared to protect buyers from bogus sellers hiding behind fake identities." Yes, I agree. eBay is not prepared to do that, and relies on eBay members reporting listings to a large extent.
Daniel Feiler said "It was up to parents to ensure children were properly monitored when using online sites" - oh, this is simply silly. Sorry. I can't put it any way. What nonsense! Mr Feiler, that's silly, silly, silly. Would you use this line if a 14-year-old held you up at gunpoint and shot you, robbed you, kicked you and ran off? If you discovered the 14-year-old had purchased the gun from a gunseller using fake ID that wouldn't have fooled a child? Wouldn't you blame the gunseller for having sold the gun? Or would you magnanimously forgive the gunseller for not checking the ID, not checking the permit, not checking the age of the buyer, and go straight into Blame The Parents mode? Primarily you'd be angry at the 14-year-old, surely... but I cannot imagine you'd consider the gunseller behaved in any properly. It's illegal to provide cigarettes to those under-age. It's illegal to sell drinks to those under-age. In what way do you consider eBay has the right to remove responsibility for checking that its members are under-age? Did you know, Mr Feiler, that "I didn't know he/she was under 18" is not accepted as an excuse against criminal charges when selling alcohol to minors? Did you know about the fines those sellers receive, and the possibility of gaol-time?
As you can see, I very strongly reject Daniel Feiler's statement above as being in any way adequate.
But then we come to this... "But Ms Eason said she was following eBay's suggested payment steps after the girl first refused payment by Paypal and then demanded payment by direct deposit.
"I did everything eBay suggested I do to protect myself but eBay have completely abrogated themselves of any responsibility on this," Ms Eason said." Ms Eason didn't do "everything eBay suggested" for protection, or she WOULD have used PayPal. Let's be realistic. eBay pound home PayPal PayPal PayPal PayPal over and over again. If Ms Eason had done everything eBay suggested, she'd have paid by PayPal regardless of the girl's refusing PayPal payment.
Now, this doesn't mean I don't believe eBay has a responsibility to assure its members when they purchase through eBay of protection irrespective of payment method. I DO believe this. I don't believe payment method ought to be the criterion on which protection is extended or withheld. However, my belief is just that - my belief. In terms of eBay's policies, eBay doesn't operate according to my beliefs. It does only offer protection for payment via PayPal. I may disagree with this, but all the same, my alarm bells would go off if a seller (for a transaction that involved a significant amount of money) refused a PayPal payment. I can understand it if a seller were in Germany or Italy and not offering Paypal at all. I can understand it if a seller were local and offering the item for pickup. (I regard PayPal as iniquitous in that situation.) But in the circumstances, yes, my alarm bells would go off. At the very least, I'd be calling the seller to have a talk before deciding anything. I might still go ahead and pay by bank deposit. But if I did this without checking the seller, I would feel myself to be incredibly foolish.
I do refuse to be fooled into thinking PayPal is the be-all and end-all of security. It's not. But there are certainly instances when the refusal to accept PayPal indicates a possible problem. The buyer should be wary in those circumstances. There's no need to think all people refusing to accept PayPal are dodgy, but there IS a need, I think, to be cautious and to assure oneself of the genuineness of the transaction. Isn't that what we do with purchasing in other venues as well? I would be a fool to buy a "rare genuine object of antiquity, oh yes fully genuine, direct guaranteed from ancient pyramid, I guarantee it, missy" from an oily-smiled stranger in an Egyptian market, wouldn't it? I would be an IDIOT to hand over thousands of dollars for this "rare genuine object of antiquity". I would feel more secure to be handing over thousands of dollars if the object were offered for auction by a reputable antiques auction house such as Christies. In fact, if the object were fake, and if Christies hadn't established the seller's bonafides, Christies would be responsible. In other words, the venue holds responsibility for the genuineness of the items, and in the event of the seller not being able to be contacted when a problem (such as failure to supply) arises, there is precedent for the venue to be held responsible.
For eBay's OWN safety, why don't they verify their members? I come back to this point again and again... but so far eBay are escaping the responsibility by claiming it ISN'T their responsibility.
I don't think the buyer has any responsibility to investigate the seller's age on eBay. The buyer should be able to trust that eBay has done that already.
I don't think the buyer has an absolute obligation to investigate the seller's verity on eBay either, because I believe that too is eBay's responsibility - but I do consider that it's WISE for the buyer to do that. I think that not relying on eBay's standards of verification is essential because I don't believe eBay is doing anywhere near ENOUGH to verify sellers.
I feel greatly sorry for Ms Eason and all of those who were caught in this fraud. I don't think they did everything possible to protect themselves. But I think that if they took this to court, it will be shown that they had reason to believe eBay would protect them. I think that the court would direct eBay to recompense them, and would reiterate the points made in the Evagora vs eBay case (http://www.findlaw.com.au/article/11134.htm). ("Evagora claimed for his loss against eBay, arguing that he did not read eBay’s user agreement, and that eBay represented that the auction site was safe, which overrode the terms of the user agreement. eBay was held liable by the Tribunal for the loss suffered by Evagora.")
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eBay spokesman Daniel Feiler said the fact that sellers had to register with Paypal and provide bank account details ensured sellers provided proof of identification to the site.
Is this correct? Do sellers HAVE to register with PayPal prior to listing an item?
I have read posts on the eBay boards of buyers saying that sellers do not have a PayPal account. Are the sellers just telling them that to avoid PayPal fees? If it is true, how do sellers open a PayPal account linked to a bank account linked to a fraudulent name used on a selling ID?
No, Sellers do NOT have to register with Paypal to list. Sellers must provide an email address for Paypal payments when they create the listing. That email address is NOT checked to see if it is a genuine Paypal account, and they can actually have different Paypal addresses for each item, because it's linked to the listing not the seller.
However, in order to WITHDRAW the funds paid to that PP email address, the seller must have a linked Bank Account, which means a 100 point ID check. So, if the seller uses a fake PP address, they cannot get the money and Paypal simply returns it to the buyer. It is almost impossible to defraud a buyer who pays by Paypal.
So, the seller can retrospectively open the PP account if they like - no matter what, they cannot collect the $ until they link and verify that PP account to their bank account. The only "loophole" is that buyers can still be coersed into using NON-Paypal payment methods, and as soon as that happens then they are not protected.
This could also occur with other payment systems, for example by the Buyer being convinced to pay by cash, etc. The eBay site is really clear that buyers are NOT covered if they don't use Paypal, so it's up to the Buyer to make that choice when they pay and make sure that they are aware of the risks.
Apart from all the other warnings, if eBay explicitely states (in Checkout) something like "You are definitely not covered if you pay this way, and we REALLY don't recommend this" and the buyer must click a button to "agree" - then surely the Buyer cannot expect to be subsequently covered if something goes wrong?
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eBay spokesman Daniel Feiler said the fact that sellers had to register with Paypal and provide bank account details ensured sellers provided proof of identification to the site.
Is this correct? Do sellers HAVE to register with PayPal prior to listing an item?
I have read posts on the eBay boards of buyers saying that sellers do not have a PayPal account. Are the sellers just telling them that to avoid PayPal fees? If it is true, how do sellers open a PayPal account linked to a bank account linked to a fraudulent name used on a selling ID?
No, Sellers do NOT have to register with Paypal to list. Sellers must provide an email address for Paypal payments when they create the listing. That email address is NOT checked to see if it is a genuine Paypal account, and they can actually have different Paypal addresses for each item, because it's linked to the listing not the seller.
Snap! :snipe: (That's the snipe emoticon. It looks somewhat aggressive, though... and naturally I would never shoot an admirable-looking llama. Not even for its head on the wall as a trophy. Mind you, I can't guarantee the same from Ubbrd...)
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Cupie.... I don't know whether you remember..... but it was you who motivated me to continue at the time! I haven't forgotten that - and thankyou! :)
The only reason Paypal bit the bullet on that one was to avoid any further negative press...AND...many consumers who had lodged complaints prior to Paypal coming to the party, had already had Paypal's decision overturned by BFSO......
I had the pleasure of meeting the people who conducted the Australian end of Paypal during that dispute. They were lovely people, trying to resolve a very difficult dilemma. We complain about the terms and conditions..... imagine having to eat and breathe these things on a daily basis. They certainly weren't robots... and I wonder whether they actually do remain. You couldn't help but feel for them. Kind, decent and considerate people.
Sadly, I did not meet Mr Pipolo - who I would have certainly explained in very plain, simple and clear words.... the meaning of integrity!
BTW...the dd customers had no real means of redress
That's right..... they were waiting on liquidators, which could be a long wait - for very little, if any return.
Riff,
You're very generous in that you would offer to pay the extra
And you're very kind :)..... but when I pay a phone bill, (2%) book an airline ticket, (4%) or go to the local computer shop (1%) I am expected to pay a surcharge to offset the seller's costs. Why shouldn't the seller be given the same opportunity regarding paypal payments - as appears to be the acceptable industry standard outside Ebay, in this country? The organisations listed above are much bigger than a seller on Ebay - and yet, they aren't expected to absorb the cost. Seems a little unfair to me.
The compulsory Paypal debate ended in a must offer paypal outcome. Why then can't the sellers have the equal opportunity of also passing on their costs?
Just a thought.
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I agree, we should be allowed to pass on this cost to the buyer.
But I'm not permitted to do this, if I choose to sell on eBay, so I need to either stop using eBay, or make these rules work for me and my buyers.
There is no argument from me that paypal, with all it's fees is still the easies, cost affective and safest way for me to trade over seas and for higher priced items in Au.
I guess, there will always be scammers working out ways to cash in on on-line trade, the only things to do are, either not trade on-line or use the most safest way on offer and keep yourself updated.
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Imp, would you agree it would be fantastic if sellers who had merchant accounts could sell on eBay without being required to offer PayPal, as long as they offered payment by c/c?
That would be something I'd regard as a real step forward for sellers.
(By the way, if that ever happens, I'd be glad to give you some information on the costs; it certainly works out cheaper than PayPal's fees.)
Buyers would be covered by their credit card provider, under the EFT Code of Conduct.
It would be win-win for the buyers and sellers.
I do have my doubts that eBay would ever permit it.
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It would be good Countess, although I am not sure how currency exchange would work?
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It works without any problem at all. I accept payments from people all over the world with my CDs, and sheet music, and so on. Their own c/c provider performs the exchange, just as when I use my card to buy from overseas online shops.
Usually my account's payment gateway clears the funds within 24 hours.
I have access to the payment gateway panel to process phone sales as well, or manual sales. I can check with banks or card providers about the legitimacy of the card holder if I have any doubts - and can veto or approve sales on that basis.
But *sigh* unless eBay allow this to be offered as a payment option for sellers who have such merchant accounts, it's all pointless in terms of eBay. It's good for those who have their own websites and offer online payments - but it must be frustrating for sellers who also sell on eBay and who have a merchant account.
And of course it doesn't help hobby sellers.
I must check this story about the 14-year-old more closely for details. How is it that she was able to sell on eBay? I don't know enough about it yet...
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Interesting!!
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Very true Countess.......ID verification would deter so much fraud, because people would know that their real ID is attached to that conduct and accountability is inescapable....now if Ebay were serious about protecting consumers as CHOICE magazine pointed out (not for the first time either), then they'd at least consider doing something to make sellers accountable under our criminal laws. At least it's something proactively aimed at accountability and real consumer protection.
Failing that, they should introduce buyer protection insurance for other payment methods as they have had to do in the US. That way, ALL consumers are protected.
I Stopped selling when Paypal came in, because there are some things in life where you have to stand on principle, and it seems many thousands of other hobby sellers did exactly that and stopped selling.
I think at the very least, Ebay should do the right thing and tell consumers to stop buying on Ebay if they prefer B/deposit as a payment method because Ebay will do nothing if they are defrauded....Let them know that it's a game of Russian Roulette...you win some, you lose some......I wonder how the buying public would view that revelation? As I've said before, Ebay have made fraud functional by commodifying it into a product called Paypal...genius really....extreme capitalism at it's very best.
Countess....I agree that merchant facility would be a great idea...at least the protection is real and merchant accounts have full ID verification and legal accountability.... But I also think B/deposit has it's place with small purchases within Australia, and a modest insurance would enable buyers to feel safe using b/deposit...e..g. 50 cents to $1.00 fee for buyer protection up to $100 - $250.00 etc.
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I guess, both ways are safe, it all depends on the person?
I bought and paid for a service on-line, when I went to use this service it was nothing like was advertised, at all, I contacted the provider and had no responce I waited 8 days.
I put a complaint into paypal and got a responce the very same day from the seller, it was sorted very quickly there after, my point is that I was able to simply go into my paypal account and activate this stop, if I had used my CC, I would of had to make phone calls etc and maybe waited days.
I guess for me I found it convenient to use paypal (as a buyer)
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With reference to purchasing from this "teenage internet girl", if the buyers had waited past 45 days to complain (and sellers can be very, very clever indeed in convincing buyers to wait) the payment method would have been immaterial.
To take advantage of PayPal's protection policy, one HAS to lodge a dispute within the 45 day period.
Of course the buyers appear to have used bank deposit. Getting a full refund is clearly unlikely. I'm left considering the question of to what degree eBay are responsible for allowing this teenager to trade on eBay.
What protocols are in place to STOP a scamming teen from listing on eBay?
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Mr Feiler said a system of providing 100 points of identification for registration as demanded by some sites would not stop online fraud.
yes this true BUT it would certainly greatly reduce fraud
from my observation eBay have no interest in spending money or resources on stopping fraud when they can sit back with their head in the sand and hope it slips under the radar
and as for Mr. Failer's comment that 'monitoring' these situations is best, how many examples can you think of when people on these boards have discovered fraud happening and trumpeted it's occurrence to eBay and they do nothing
I believe the only time they monitor fraud is well and truly after the horse has bolted and then they try and use it to sing the praises of their shonky payment system paypal
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What protocols are in place to STOP a scamming teen from listing on eBay?
Regardless of the nature of the on-line scam, buyers need to take responsibility for their own actions. This sort of scam exists all over the internet, it's not unique to eBay.
The buyer in the 'teenage' case put themselves in a position to be scammed by ignoring the warnings that eBay/PayPal offer.
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A devout Christian heard an urgent news report on his radio that a flash flood was within minutes of entering the peaceful valley where he lived. Immediately he went to his knees and prayed for safety. The words were still on his lips when he became aware that water was gushing under his door. He retreated to the second floor and finally onto the roof of his house.
While he sat on the roof, a helicopter flew by and the pilot asked over the loudspeaker if they could lift him off. "It's not necessary since I have the Lord's protection," he replied.
Moments later the house began to break up and he found himself clinging to a tree. A police boat, braving the waters, approached him for rescue, but he assured them that the Lord would save him. Finally, the tree gave way and the man went to his death.
Standing before the Lord, he asked, "Lord, I'm glad to be here, but why didn't You answer my prayer for safety?"
The Lord responded, "Son, I told you over the radio to get out of there. Then I sent you a helicopter and a motor boat!"
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Actually, consumer protection laws say quite the opposite Riff, and blaming the victim isn't a good look in any injustice........ I can probably come up with a number of fair trading/consumer affairs cases and public/product liability and personal injury cases, where that was demonstrated time and time again....
Basically, the law requires that any risk should be CLEARLY STATED, so as be anything but ambiguous, and so the consumer is fully informed of any risk they may be taking in the use of Ebay's marketplace......if that isn't the case, then the liability falls onto the trader and venue, not the buyer who by definition is the victim of fraud.
BNWT.....totally agree with what you've said...no deterrent at all is nothing short of negligent.....but then....Paypal is the answer to Fraud...so buyers better stop this extreme consumerism, and conform to the paypal push...or suffer the consequences of a marketplace with no deterrents against fraudsters.
As I said, a great big sign on the home page of ebay telling b/deposit customers about the risk openly and unambiguously, and why that risk exists unmitigated.....would be perfect...that way, more and more victims won't fall into this perpetual fraud trap.
But I guess in the meantime, blaming the victim works well too.
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I sure some people here have a laptop strapped to themselves !.... no matter whether it's day or night you guys are here !... come over and give me a hand steam cleaning my carpets!.. I've been at it from 7am.. I'm bluggered !...
Sorry to interrupt the topic...
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Easy solution...get rid of your carpets...I have tiles downstairs and floorboards upstairs...easy.
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.............some people ya just can't reach..........
This is all much simpler than it's being portrayed Cupie. Just ask yourself if you would deposit over $2000 into a strangers bank account.
I know what my answer would be....................
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Easy solution...get rid of your carpets...I have tiles downstairs and floorboards upstairs...easy.
That would eliminate carpet burns... [ cigarette burns that is... what were you thinking ?... ;)
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(http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss232/edgabrit/lol-020.gif)
NO WAY!
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Hi ya IMP.. hows mi little avatar vixen.... (http://www.myemoticons.com/emoticons/images/msn/bad-boys/hubbahubba.gif)
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Yibb, my back aches for you, I did that for a crust while studying, I slept well though ;)
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I recommend that buyers take steps to protect themselves on eBay and in other online purchases... but that's because it saves so much angst if things go wrong. Assume eBay is not going to protect you. Assume you have to rely on your credit card provider. Assume that your seller MAY be a scamming teen. Don't trust eBay to have checked or verified the seller.
I know this is exaggerating the case. However, unless buyers do assume these things, they may end up with a nasty surprise.
It would be so nice to have trust in eBay's verification... but I honestly can't. That's why I perform risk assessment (at a subconscious level) when I buy on eBay.
I do not think it's appropriate for eBay to wash their hands of the verification issue and to try to offload the responsibility for the identify of the seller onto the buyer. And of course you know I believe that eBay should be offering protection for purchases paid for by bank transfer. Unfortunately they don't.
It's probably #1 on my wishlist for eBay. "Please, eBay, provide protection regardless of payment method. Don't continue to offer protection only for purchases made by PayPal."
Actually, I wish I knew what the buyer in that article meant when she said she'd followed eBay's recommendations... Does anyone know?
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Hi ya IMP.. hows mi little avatar vixen.... (http://www.myemoticons.com/emoticons/images/msn/bad-boys/hubbahubba.gif)
hey, don't dribble on my leather Yibby, it'll stain!
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Hi ya IMP.. hows mi little avatar vixen.... (http://www.myemoticons.com/emoticons/images/msn/bad-boys/hubbahubba.gif)
hey, don't dribble on my leather Yibby, it'll stain!
No problem IMP...I got the carpet machine till 6pm....I'll do ya with your leathers on if you like..
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My apologies for redirecting the thread...please continue...
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Ah, Riff, I did something similar with my purchase of a sound system for one of the things I do!
It was an Australian business with a shop - they're about 1 and a half hours from me, so I decided to get them to courier the purchase. (Great people - I had several conversations with the sound specialists there to be sure I decided on the best system.) Sent a cheque for the full amount. The sound system arrived a week later by courier.
Actually, the courier didn't include something - it consisted of three boxes. Two of the boxes were delivered. One was not there. This was the courier's fault, not the shop's, but of course the shop took responsibility. They were very good about chasing up the naughty courier (who'd simply been slack rather than fraudulent). Another week, and I had the whole thing.
There was another problem - one of the wireless mics crackled when I tested it. I returned it, and the faulty mic was replaced the next day.
The shop didn't use the method of payment as a get-out. In spite of the comedy of errors, I consider that shop has excellent customer service, resolving any problems quickly.
But that shop was a fully functioning b&m business. It has a reputation to uphold. It knew it needed to comply with the TPA.
There are other circumstances where paying by bank deposit is not recommended. It depends on assessing the seller when it comes down to it, I think.
That's what I want - the CHOICE to make my payments as I see fit, by the method I deem appropriate.
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.............some people ya just can't reach..........
This is all much simpler than it's being portrayed Cupie. Just ask yourself if you would deposit over $2000 into a strangers bank account.
I know what my answer would be....................
Riff, ......unless you can come up with opposing evidence or factual argument debunking my concerns...you need not feel so compelled to 'Reach Me'....I don't want to be 'reached' with anything other than objective factual information ...then, I may change my views.
I don't pay anyone that amount for anything sight unseen over the net, so no risk of that happening. Anyone who does would need their head read. Many people are making modest purchases, and getting ripped off, not big time...small time.....but what can they do? Police can't investigate every single consumer rip off, and what other commercial entity has an entire Police Online Fraud reporting initiative built around it but Ebay? lmao....which reminds me..they will have released their statistics for 2008...that should be very interesting.
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One of the most interesting developments in relation to anti online fraud measures is definitely the Queensland police online initiative (which is of course national, not just for Queensland buyers). The information gathered so far might well be primarily statistical in use.
If that's true, I think we can expect a bigger police initiative dedicated to coping with online fraud.
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Creep! lol!
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Cupie, that 'can't be reached' remark wasn't directed solely at you. It describes anybody who ignores the advice given to them in their best interests.
When I see a good arguement for paying strangers large sums of money via bank deposit or via any other means that provides no protection, I may change my view too.
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I guess if your going to worry about getting ripped off by every seller on eBay before you have even bought off them, then you really shouldn't even be shopping on-line..
I know one person who is terrified of being ripped off, even in RL, this person will not ever go near eBay, Oztion or any other on line store..this person also hardly ever leave the house and takes months to make a purchase of one T shirt...
What a way to live... :(
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In their first year, half of QLD fraud was traced back to 23 individuals who had continually opened new accounts on Ebay and kept right on defrauding....by those stats, one might assume that Ebay is a fraud recidivists dream and yet still... ID verification is ignored as the best way to deter and prevent fraud in the first place, and stop recidivist fraud altogether.
By the way the online fraud initiative was developed in 2006, following the results of that precedent fraud study on Ebay, posted on page 1. Fraud being illegal and all that.
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Hi, Imp.
Do you mean that "teenage internet girl" is a creep? Could well be... What sort of girl would deliberately defraud people like that? Very weird behaviour. At least she was caught and had to face criminal charges.
I just wanted to comment on what you said about "I guess if your going to worry about getting ripped off by every seller on eBay before you have even bought off them, then you really shouldn't even be shopping on-line." - I thought it was an interesting comment, because isn't the major reason why buyers use PayPal because of the issue of worrying about getting ripped off by every seller on eBay? Or to put it another way, making sure they have protection for the transaction?
If customers don't worry about it - if they assume every seller is legitimate and conducts their business with reliability and integrity - then the whole issue of online fraud becomes irrelevant for them. That would include not checking the seller's feedback, being happy to send the cash in an envelope, etc.
Isn't there a sensible place between paranoia and recklessness? I think that's where I function (I hope so, anyway). Sadly we DO have to exercise care... not because every seller is out to rob buyers, or every buyer is out to defraud sellers, but because SOME sellers are out to rob buyers and SOME buyers are out to defraud sellers. There are some dishonest people in the world; some do it professionally and consistently and repeatedly; some do it because they don't feel like remedying a problem; some do it because they're able to get away with it once in a while and their ideals are "looser" than some people's; and so on.
Have you checked the Falcon online fraud detection system that's in place now - real-time fraud detection when using your card?
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that is what I am trying to say also, there is a middle ground, eBay for me has been safe, I have had very little issues in the 7 yrs. I guess I wouldn't like to see eBay advertised as an evil place full of scammers to the newbie, if that makes sense?
There are scammers everywhere, I have been had in RL..
I guess this is why you need to be 18 to join eBay, then one would hope that it is an adult decision to buy??
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To add to that, a service or business can only put in place rules, the scammer will find ways to avoid or manipulate these rules, irrespective of what safe guards are in place..
A crook is a crook...even the police get scammed..
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I see a lot of adds that bear the words...... 'If you don't intend to pay - don't bid'. I wonder how many sellers have been told the the kids accidentally hit the but it now button, the excuse being used by a buyer who has changed their mind?
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Yes, it's funny to think of, isn't it? That police (who should be very, very savvy) are still vulnerable to being scammed?
I suppose that's because of the commonality of human nature. We all have our vulnerabilities. I think conmen have it emblazoned on their foreheads: "everyone is capable of being scammed".
I hear what you're saying... but I don't believe that the assumption that criminals will break the rules justifies jettisoning the rules.
I do believe in ensuring the rules are as broad as possible, to limit the possibility of "fooling" the parameters designed to weed out fraudsters and scammers. I think it is a never-ending task, because as you say, people who scam will keep finding new ways to do so. But rather than concluding that this means we should give up on developing fraud/scam prevention, I see this as meaning that fraud/scam prevention needs continually to evolve in reaction.
It's like anti-virus software. If you look back at the software developed six, seven years ago and install it on your computer, or even if you look at the latest software but with the virus definitions of a year ago, you can't rely on that for your computer protection. (I hope you constantly update your virus definitions!) People who work for software companies developing anti-virus software are aware that their job will never end. They've got to be on the ball. New viruses to attack computers will ALWAYS be developed. It's a sad and horrible reality. And the fight against them will ALWAYS have to look at continually evolving ways of stopping them.
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r3830, apparently LOTS of sellers have heard that. In fact, don't we have a thread here about all of the inventive excuses people use when trying to get out of paying?
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There are scammers everywhere, I have been had in RL..
I guess this is why you need to be 18 to join eBay, then one would hope that it is an adult decision to buy??
Firstly the girl wasn't 18 and managed to elude all of Ebay/Paypal's so called safeguards....and secondly.....the fact that there are scammers everywhere is no excuse to do absolutely nothing to prevent it. JMO Mind you this kids certainly making an early start using all resources at her disposal..lol
I'll find a link to the issues paper on online fraud projections for the next decade...illuminating to say the least...but once again...very long winded....so you have to be determined to get through it all.
Banks are spending millions on fraud prevention why? because scammers are getting more sophisticated.....if they did nothing.....we'd all be toast. Thank gord for the EFT Code that protects account holders against fraud and makes it the banks problem eh? Meanwhile, those same sophisticated fraudsters probably find Ebay/Paypal a veritable pushover by comparison, and unlike bank customers...there's no EFT to protect you...no fraud prevention being entered into...anyway..once again...JMO. ;D
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Cupie, could you post that link here when you find it? I'd be interested in reading it, even though you are warning us it's long-winded.
(Candid admission: I know my posts can be rather... ahem... long, but that doesn't make it any easier when I read through long-winded papers!)
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Countess, this one is a doozy goes on forever in PDF format... I have it somewhere...but finding it might take me a few hours of determination......it goes into great detail...I don't have time tonight...have been working early starts for a week...and I mean sparrow fart early...lol. So give me a raincheck and I'll get back to you when the braincells and patience for searching are renewed.
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I recently killed a rat bastard for defrauding me for over $4000.00.
Total sociopath.
My world is a better place now.
What are ya gonna do, rat me out? The evidence is gone, and local (so-called) Law Enforcemenbt don't care about the goings-on in Montello, Nevada.
I spoke to the State Atty General, & he verified it: Monetllo is expendable. So there is NO LAW here.
Just me and my crew & our guns.
No jive.
You can ask any Elko County Pig........All they do is pop locals on Traffic Stops, but they won't deal with Theft & other hardcore crimes.
(If this is "Law Enforcement", I sure don't wanna see Corruption..... >:()
FTW x10!
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There's 3 ways to face a day in Montello from my POV:
1) Stay home for 26 hours.
2) Drive to the Post Office & back before 2 PM, return & stay home for 19+ hours.
C) Come out with both barrels-a-blazing, but dont hit the UPS guy......he has my eBay packages.....
Nobody cares what I do, as long as they aren't involved, or: they like to hear "Tales of The Wild West"....
(Small town debris....)
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Tello, Australia is not Nevada, the population is nowhere near as large as the US, although we have the same land mass...nevertheless policing a much smaller population isn't as mediocre or forlorn... perhaps the only resemblance would be the movie Wolf Creek...that should definitely appeal to you...in the desert, nobody hears you scream....lol recommend you rent it on DVD.....very fictional...I mean factual and relevant...hehehehe..as if......In fact..... Tarantino raved about it....but many in the Aussie public thought it was rubbish...Aussies are a bit like that though....if it doesn't sound fair dinkum it's probably bullshit !!
Hey Tello, have you ever considered back packing in the red centre? Just kidding...carry on.
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Firstly the girl wasn't 18 and managed to elude all of Ebay/Paypal's so called safeguards....and secondly.....the fact that there are scammers everywhere is no excuse to do absolutely nothing to prevent it.
Like I said, sacmmers are everywhere, just like this child, she knew she was not permitted to join, yet she did...People are not allowed to park in a No Standing area but they do..they will get caught and fines will be placed...like this girl will suffer.
I did not say to do nothing.
I agree Countess, the rules need to be made hole proof, and continually updated with every new scam that arrives...vigilance is the key, caution, not paranoia. Don't you agree?
We all enjoy eBay, we all use eBay, I just dont understand why such bashing??? just wondering.
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Wolf Creek is chump compared to "Wrong Turn" 1 & 2, and "The Hills Have Eyes", "The Ruins", "Cabin Fever", "The Devil's Rejects" and "Who Framed Roger Rabbit".
I got those.....& more.
Nice try: carry on...fair dinkum I suppose.
(Oz aint Nevada...who wouldda thot of that except an Ozzie? Mute point. No score on that one. Give it another go, Mate!)
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Wolf Creek is chump compared to "Wrong Turn" 1 & 2, and "The Hills Have Eyes", "The Ruins", "Cabin Fever" and "Who Framed Roger Rabbit".
I got those.....& more.
Nice try: carry on...fair dinkum I suppose.
LOL!!!!
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Wolf Creek is chump compared to "Wrong Turn" 1 & 2, and "The Hills Have Eyes", "The Ruins", "Cabin Fever" and "Who Framed Roger Rabbit".
I got those.....& more.
Nice try: carry on...fair dinkum I suppose.
LOL!!!!
WMD!
(words of mass description)
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LOL...there's nothing paranoid about being informed and cautious with a payment system that spells it out in plain english....They take no responsibility in the event of all and any imaginable risk...and their buyer protection is discretionary...the only redress is BFSO...hopefully, this site will assist in informing consumers about that recourse....Post that info on EBay now, and you'll be slapped and sanctioned in seconds......
Ironically, in the early days.....I took Paypal's UA to a legal colleague and asked on the basis of the terms and conditions and endless..let me say again...endless waivers........ if he would join....after he finished laughing, he asked me if I was serious.....no word of a lie....lol....his question quite rightly was...would you indemnify any other entity and then give them access to your bank accounts?.....the answer to that question is....NO !...the conclusion therefore is obvious when it comes to protecting oneself from much bigger and more serious fraud.......looking over your shoulder is not paranoid, it's about being aware of your limitations and your liabilities...such is life.
Ignorance will be no excuse if Paypal account holders are seriously defrauded via those links to CC's and bank accounts..lol...I truly hope that doesn't happen, but basically, with the sophistication of fraud these days and no obligation under EFT for Paypal to do a thing.....the outcome is almost inevitable.
Thankfully in all their wisdom Bowen's office has ensured that Unfair consumer contract laws are uniform and nation wide, so arguing Ebay or Paypal's unconscionable user agreement won't be quite so hard in the future.
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Jeez...there's a serious discussion going on here & I have no cause to interfer. Sorry if I did. Not sorry if I didn't.
eBay is BIG bizniss. Members are a BIGGGER deal than that.
I'm off this thread.
Fair Dinkum?
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Hooroo then !!
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Seriously..I'm outta here.
Better times can be had on my crappy little threads.
Or not.
.......
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Paypal can't access bank accounts.
I have never had a issue with anything you are stating, for me it is the safest option right now. You must of had something terrible happen?
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hooroo goodbye
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1. hooroo 82 up, 25 down love it hate it
An aussie way of saying "goodbye"
Hooroo stinky poo.
by Anf Mar 12, 2004 share this
2. hooroo 24 thumbs up love it hate it
Hooroo is a distinctively Australian way of saying “goodbye”.
The "truly wondrous fantasmagorically splendiferously magickal word hooroo" (credited to someone's Uncle Wally) echoes two likely sources.
It's a bit of a joyous exclamation, as in "Hooroo! hooroo!
hooray!" (Darby O'Gill), and it's also something of an owl's hoot, as in "the proper hooroo, hooroo" (The Sword in the Stone).
?
"For my part, I do believe I should go quite insane, were I to live in {a} Land where people wandered around screaming, 'HOOROO' at one- another". said Werewolfy"
--
Wacky Ozzies. What can Westerners expect from a former Prison Continent?
---->Choccy!<----
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Tello...NOT all Aussies talk like this.
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Hey Tello, have you ever considered back packing in the red centre?
Personal thoughts..I think Tello would revel in that option. His style...demenour..and just all round popularity would see him welcomed into any outback community in this country.
He may have to shout the bar in some locations to be really accepted...but that's no biggy... ;)
Back to topic though....and I have been thinking about this little girl that got away with defrauding the Ebay comunity.
I am an advocate for Ebay starting up their own user verification..and this case seems to back me up.
The banks verify the user...no doubt about that...BUT! When Paypal or Ebay use the banking system to piggy back on their system..they neglect to verify AGE!
Kids these days can open a whole plethora of accounts with the banks...and they may have their age recorded with those banks.
But Paypal or Ebay don't actually verify those details.
To be honest...they don't actually verify anything!...except that the person has a bank account with that bank.
I'm savvy enough to even open a bank account in my cat's name....and then proceed to open an Ebay account and start selling under my cat's name.
Who will stop me? Not Ebay for sure... :(
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Tello...NOT all Aussies talk like this.
Not all Aussies like me, either.
So special. How do I do this? Why do you allow it?
Big "Hmmmm" on that one, me thinks...
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G'day Roo. Does your cat have 100 points of ID ? ;D
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Hey Tello, have you ever considered back packing in the red centre?
Don't be going all 'secret code' on me now.
Speak Canuck or forsake me on all that sideline chatter.... LOL!
Didn't I say I am outta here? Stop tricking me already!!!
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Who doesn't like you, Tello? Haven't you got an obsessed fanclub thing going on here? They're all slavering for you!
If you ever drop in to Australia, I'll even buy you a wicked little drink with an umbrella in it.
Tello...NOT all Aussies talk like this.
- Well, yes, true; there are many different standards and types of usage in Australia. For that matter, I don't know any other Australian who speaks as I do. It's one of the exciting wonders of Australian English. I had a lot of fun creating the "Strine" version of the disgruntled seller's Terms of Sale - English very different to that which I usually use. But it's so vivid and expressive!
I agree Countess, the rules need to be made hole proof, and continually updated with every new scam that arrives...vigilance is the key, caution, not paranoia. Don't you agree?
Absolutely true, Imp. Unfortunately I have dealt with people who are truly paranoid - one individual (whose identity I will protect for reasons of privacy) who was convinced she was followed everywhere, and that strangers entered her apartment while she was gone, just to move things around... She left notes all over the toilet saying, "Leave me alone!" "Go away!" and so on. But in terms of vigilance and caution, we all shift our levels of acceptable risk by different levers, and who is to say whose level is the wiser?
By the way, I love the term "hole proof" in that context. Very evocative.
Roo, I will be on the lookout for a seller called "Roos_Cat". *keeps eyes peeled*
And I reiterate - what is the problem with verifying sellers? Why not verify them? It would certainly help to prevent scams.
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OK, ya called me onnit!
America sucks!
I've been suffering it for 51 years now.
No diss on OZ; my bad; No disrespect, but my info can't be all that wrong.
Sorry. I hate being partially Human.
If I visit Oz, can I crash on yer sofa?
It'll cost me extra if I bring my own....
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Who doesn't like you, Tello? Haven't you got an obsessed fanclub thing going on here? They're all slavering for you!
Didn't that already happen when The Beatles invaded America?
If you ever drop in to Australia, I'll even buy you a wicked little drink with an umbrella in it.
I'll pay extra if I can substitute the umbrella for a Swamp Cooler!
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Cupie, why do you choose insult over conversation?
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Tello...if you ever get down to our fair Island..you are assured of least one comfy couch to crash on.
I'm working on cleaning out the back room and moving a bed into there though..so your lodgings would be quite comfy... :)
I have a Barbie on the verandah...so would expect you to at least do a bit of cooking some nights....only fair I think...lol
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Cupie and Roo: I can charter a seafaring vessal. EM me on yer precise location.
I'll be arriving as unregistered cargo, rather than a passenger.
If yer serious, I'm curious. And I have housekeeping skills!!!
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Tello...just do the Captain Cook and you should end up on the East Coast of Oz....Roo is south of the border.......I think !!!...hehehehe We're smack dab in the middle.
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Wow..THAT'S perfectly vague.
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Now, if you take the first left at the big tree-stump shaped like an 8-fingered cat-burglar, and keep going until you reach the paddock where sixteen black wombats are performing a high-wire trapeze act, then go left again, you will not reach my place.
*wicked grin*
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Well..not vague to Aussies...Captain Cook discovered Australia...or so he claimed....hehehehe....there were other cultures before him, but only Britain could colonise the place = bring on the purpose made class criminals otherwise known as convicts...lol...whatever.
Aim for the East coast of Australia....but then the West coast is pretty special too...and come to think of it so is the the Great Southern lands through SA...and the rugged north west...you're right..just aim for Australia and call or email somebody. One of us will come and get ya.
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Knock it off tess. You know I hafta break thru the Time-Space Continuum in order to arrive down under in one piece.
It's a journey no man should endure alone without XM Radio, and a bag o' reefer.....
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One of us will come and get ya.
Fuggit! I'll just crashland in the middle and hail a cab.
Gimmer yer phone numbers. Ya better answer when I call, cuz I hear it's winter there. Homey don't play that freezie game....
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I was with you all through the space-time continuum thing, but you lost me when you got to xm radio. So I googled it.
Over 170 channels? Well, holy handgrenade of Antioch... that's impressive...
(I only have one question. I have two ears. I could theoretically listen to two stations at once. But how can I manage 170?)
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Gord.....Yibida must be teleporting him down under...prepare for tello download
:beammeupscotty: :drummer:
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But how can I manage 170?)
Start at channel 165.
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prepare for tello download
Don't count on it. I'm feeling kindof Viral lately....
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"How to get to Australia and visit the OzRT crowd".
Step 1: Take a leisurely cruise to this amazing continent. :titanic:
Step 2: Discover that the ship's sinking and you end up on a desert island. :ebali:
Step 3: Catch some of the local wildlife and hang on while they lift you up, up, up, with more secure flying than Qantas. :pigsfly:
Step 4: Try to convince the flying pigs to land; discover they have no landing gear and you're obliged to bail out over the Great Nullabor. :parachute:
Step 5: Send out a message on your drums, saying "Hey, dudes! I'm here. When are one of you lot going to pick me up?" :drum:
Step 6: Await the elegant transportation that will arrive to take you to your destination. :cycle:
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One of us will come and get ya.
Fuggit! I'll just crashland in the middle and hail a cab.
Gimmer yer phone numbers. Ya better answer when I call, cuz I hear it's winter there. Homey don't play that freezie game....
More like hail a truck on the Nullabor...lol...no cabs....nothing actually. But I have to say if you've ever stood on the top of the Great Australian Bite...and looked down.....you know you're standing on the edge of Australia...amazing place...desert for miles and then sheer drop the the ocean...Great White Sharks live there...run away...run away...but the water in places like Denmark and Esperance in WA are crystal clear and magic....anyway....just remembering how great this country is. And the Kimberleys is now under threat of mining....unbelievable to consider if you've ever been there. *sigh*
:shark:
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I can get better mileage hitchhiking in Santa's Sleigh.
Yeah, I'll be right there in no time.
Not!
;D
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How about if you Blokes and Blokettes just EM me a bleeding map, with arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each destination is????
I mean...I'm just sitting here on the Group W Bench....
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Imp how far in Australia have you actually traveled? Around any of it? Have you lived anywhere but in a CBD type setting? How is it you think you can vouch for the way Aussies speak? Iv'e been around Austrralia twice over 4 years, spending time everywhere I worked and traveled..... so how do you feel so confident speaking for the many Australians who do happen to speak like this...in fact Tello...we have a whole family of kangaroos that do actually hop down our roads. In some parts of Australia that isn't a tall tale...but then...some of us live or have lived in those regions of Australia.
Excuse ME!!! I did not say all Aussies do not speak like that, I said not all Aussies DO...I AM Australian, I happen to be Aboriginal, I have been INTO Australia, I have worked in many places and lived in the bush, I have been everywhere but Tassie, like you really care.... Unreal!!!!!
Honestly, I am staggered....
There is so much I want to say right now, I am really quite offended.
Hi lurkers!!! exhibit A.
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Break it up!
No squabbles on my watch!
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Disagreement doesn't have to be Hiroshima.
Tello, when you decide to head this way, I'll send you a map.
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Don't discount this offer Tello....us Aussie folk are pretty reliable and do deliver.
Just imagine it.....all you have to do is get your sorry ass over to this continant..then you get free board and lodgings from a few different folk....we may even feed you now and then..lol
I'm in the suburbs of melbourne.....and could introduce you to my old mate Kanga while you are here...he would totally warp your mind...lol
A leisurly afternoon dining with the countess would be on the cards...and a few other peeps in the region too....
Don't say we never offered.... ;)
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Countess, If you are bothering to READ these posts you will understand why I don't bother to post much here anymore. To be so attacked over a simple statement, which everyone here is entitled to make without fear of correction, makes this site unpleasant.
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hardly a disagreement, rather an attack on an Innocent statement...how very ordinary.
see yas.
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Don't say we never offered....
Do you take PayPal?
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Disagreement doesn't have to be Hiroshima.
So what passes as insult on this site?
Offensive is offensive.
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I'm slow on the uptake: is Primula dissing somebody here? If so: why? No sofa?
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If the disagreement leads to a number of members being made uncomfortable, I can and will step in to moderate. I prefer not to do that, because I want to rely on the members being ADULTS, acting like adults, able to interact like adults. Not all of you are friends, and that's obvious. But I'm doing you the courtesy of giving you the freedom to express yourselves like rational adults. Rational adults don't always like each other and don't always agree with each other. But they SHOULD be able to co-operate.
For those who tend to rub each other the wrong way, why not try emailing each other to sort out the problems? Or just agree to disagree.
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(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/Train%20Wrecks/5913.jpg)
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All I can say..is....get your big girls panties on and deal with it! :biggirlpants:
No one will ever agree 100% with what others post on forums...but you have to make allowances for the fact that what one person sees as humerous...others may not.
Be open minded...try to actually see where the other person is coming from....sit back and think for a while before condeming a poster.
I have never reported a poster for a differing opinion...because I feel that all our opinions are worth listening to and taking into account when a decision needs to be made.
Chill out!
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No Tello you dont have the hat to be able to do that, and an umbrella just wont hack what it takes LMAO
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If Oz is gonna be a ruff neighbourhood, I ain't going.
Sort it out for me, Mates.
Either way, I'm an adult. (I just can't proove it...)
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If the disagreement leads to a number of members being made uncomfortable, I can and will step in to moderate.
Time to step up to the plate then Countessa.
There's a big difference between a disagreement over an issue and an outright insult. You have seen both on this thread.
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Thank you, Riff, for your input. Please feel free to email me if you'd like to talk.
For now, in this thread, I would like to see co-operation or agreement to disagree.
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(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/South%20Park/Kenny.gif)
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Cue, I know you have been waiting to 'get rid' of me from your site...
Be my guest!!
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(http://s691.photobucket.com/albums/vv277/area_51_bucket/th_funny_cat_pictures_14.jpg) I been lurking...LOL
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Hi IMP, just joined in, how ya going.... and all the regulars.. carpets done!... time to chill out..
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Hello my lubbly Yibby *wink*
I have been better, lets just say, I have a Cue virus... *a chooo*
I'm out here, I know when I'm not wanted nor respected...
BARK!
Gettin a good rep this joint... pffft!
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Cue, I know you have been waiting to 'get rid' of me from your site...
Who?
Not me!
I'm on ice.
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/Drums%20-Small%20Black/Drums%20-%20BIGGEST/IMG_6418.jpg)
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I haven''t seen any insults! This thread has been nothing more than a few people just expressing their thoughts and views.
I can deal with that,,,,,and I hope that others can do the same thing.
Reading between the lines is OK when you are faced with a shonky seller....but most people here just talk from the heart
I'm afraid I am lost on this train of thought.. :huh:
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I'm afraid I am lost on this train of thought..
Ditto. I didn't use a monkey wrench here....
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/Train%20Wrecks/TrainWreck.jpg)
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Hello my lubbly Yibby *wink*
I have been better, lets just say, I have a Cue virus... *a chooo*
I'm out here, I know when I'm not wanted nor respected...
BARK!
Gettin a good rep this joint... pffft!
Well IMP.. believe it or not I have these days too.. [ hard to believe I know ! ] I have developed a leather neck over the years on the many forums I frequent.. you just have to take the good with the bad I suppose, If I was offended and said I'll never go there again I wouldn't have any forums left!... forums are like jobs... no matter where you work there's away's one person who will rub you the wrong way..trust me on this one I'm very close LOLOL, I've had more jobs than I care to remember.. and more people I care not to remember either, I hate to see unrest on forums, that's why I go all silent when I see one coming, you have to step away from the keyboard and take a deep breath and assess your next move, or go to another thread that's more fun, Tello's thread's will get you kacking ! LOL... well that's my $1.50's worth... [ how's mi offer going to steam clean your leather's BTY... ]
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Tello's thread's will get you kacking ! LOL...
Thx for the Promo!
Nice touch....
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Tello my man..been following you today [ read stalking ] you have some good advise for us... just not sure how to decipher it ? ...must be a code book around here somewhere.. what's on the agender for tonight...any bootscootin shin dig's in town? LOL... just screwing with ya !..lighten up..good to see you made OZ your second home...gunna start your fan club soon..$2000 to join up and ya get a free Tello heffer on heat badge....
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Love your train wreck Tello..it's like the story of my life! :green:
Imp...stand back,,,and review.
I do it now and then..because sometimes I say what comes out and realise that it may have sounded a bit iffy to those that aren't into the topic.
I get a funny feeling that you are not wanting to deal with this though...and any excuse to lob out of here is an easy option....So be it...if that is the case.
I do tend to respect people that will stand up and be counted..even if they seem to be outnumbered.
But..I do need to see the story...so I can make my own decisions.
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a bit iffy to those that aren't into the topic.
We lost the topic long ago. Ain't anarchy grand?
New pix:
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/ODD%20Stuff/badneighborBush.jpg)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/ODD%20Stuff/neverGetToWork.jpg)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/ODD%20Stuff/fuk-mi.jpg)
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I get a funny feeling that you are not wanting to deal with this though...and any excuse to lob out of here is an easy option....So be it...if that is the case.
I'm here..just don't need to explain my life, where I have lived, etc, just because I know not all Aussies say hooroo...WTF???
I mean, I'm being slagged at and now being told "any opportunity to bolt" Roo, I'm pissed off, Cue first slagged Tello off and then me, I mean, what is the go??? but it is not the first time and will continue...
Just because I don't want to sit here and have more crap flicked at me does not mean I am gutless, I just don't feel I need this sort of shite in my life, simple really..let me say it isn't the only time and it is NOT all visible here..because I stood with Riff when he posted in another thread, I am now on the hit list, and no doubt linked to Babs, Bruce, Donna, Osama and Hitler....
I have simply had enough.
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Cue first slagged Tello off
Lost me on this one. Who's 'Cue'? Whad they do to me? How does "slagged" feel?
Call me numpty, but why the angst & dissent?
Oh...I know: The Human Condition.
C):-{= <" aint that a bear to wrestle to the cleaners? "<<
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But IMP...does this mean I don't get to clean your leathers?.... :(
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you have some good advise for us... just not sure how to decipher it ?
What?
Looking for answers from me?
They come individually wrapped & some assembly is required.
I haggle.
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/ODD%20Stuff/morale.jpg)
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OMG, I started this thread this morning to seek opinions on the claims made in the news article, not to open the proverbial
(http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr342/wheels2spin/can-o-worms.gif)
From the 142 responses here, I'm still not sure what is Correct and what is Not, but this is how I see it so far.
from the article:
eBay spokesman Daniel Feiler said the fact that sellers had to register with Paypal and provide bank account details ensured sellers provided proof of identification to the site. Not Correct, apparently any Joe Blow can create an eBay ID with a fake name and start selling and hope that some buyers get sucked in
It was up to parents to ensure children were properly monitored when using online sites and users needed to protect themselves by using suggested safe payment methods such as Paypal, he said. Totally agree
But Ms Eason said she was following eBay's suggested payment steps after the girl first refused payment by Paypal and then demanded payment by direct deposit. "I did everything eBay suggested I do to protect myself but eBay have completely abrogated themselves of any responsibility on this," Ms Eason said. Not correct, if a seller refuses PayPal, run!
"I don't understand how eBay allowed a 14-year-old girl to register and sell that many items that she did not own. "I don't understand how eBay can allow people to supply inaccurate contact details, have no age check and take no responsibility for providing the medium for these fraudulent trades to take place." Because eBay has NO verification process
Mr Feiler said a system of providing 100 points of identification for registration as demanded by some sites would not stop online fraud. It may not stop online fraud, but it could go a long way towards reducing fraud
"The best way to eliminate problems is to monitor activity," he said. "Normally we can spot when there is trouble and we can shut it down and often we alert the police because we know what is normal activity." Past history shows that eBay rely on members to discover and report fraud and DO NOT alert the police
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But IMP...does this mean I don't get to clean your leathers?.... :(
Meet ya out back after the show *wink*
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Back on topic!
Sweet!
Now this:
I am now on the hit list, and no doubt linked to Babs, Bruce, Donna, Osama and Hitler....
2 in a row...I'm slow on the uptake. Who's being a butthead here? And Why?
I thot all the scuttlebutt-mongers were to be detained at the cybergates of this domain.
Just asking.
Cheers
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/ODD%20Stuff/morale.jpg)
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But IMP...does this mean I don't get to clean your leathers?.... :(
Meet ya out back after the show *wink*
(http://s691.photobucket.com/albums/vv277/area_51_bucket/th_hubbahubba.gif)
OOP's I'm doing it again....guess I'll have to do it twice!...clean it I mean,,,
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Run Tello Run !!!.... it's turdzilla !
(http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2008/08/turdzilla.jpg)
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Really Tello this trash should be on your thread ......
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Really Tello this trash should be on your thread ......
Let's put it there. I'm still in the dark on the sore-spots here. Hope they heal quickly!
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/ODD%20Stuff/sign-manpanic.gif)
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Wheelie,
Not Correct, apparently any Joe Blow can create an eBay ID with a fake name and start selling and hope that some buyers get sucked in
Yes you are right, I demonstrated on another thread that there is in existance a legitimate PayPal account in the name of Alphonce Capone, that account is NOT linked to any bank account what so ever.
If you like I can again post the proof
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So, what would be the point of having a PayPal account that is not linked to a bank account when it comes to selling and ripping people off on eBay?
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Riff,
Ebay use a PayPal account to verify an eBay account and selling fees can be paid from a PayPal account.
Am i correct so far?
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I'm not sure how you pay seller fees without linking the PayPal account to a bank account or credit card?
eBay requires that a PayPal account is linked to an eBay selling account.
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Riff that is quite simple you can transfer funds between one PayPal account and another.
Am I Correct so far?
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Yes, but if Al Capone ever wants to withdraw funds from any PayPal account, one of them has to be linked to a verified bank account. Incidently, this is why, when a PayPal account reaches a certain level of funds turnover, PayPal are required by Australian anti money laundering laws to verify the idendity of the account holder (regardless of linked bank accounts).
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Riff what sort of safety measures are in place in this senario?
Al Capone sells non existant goods to the tune of say $5,000.
He then buys good to the value of $5,000 immediatly.
Hasn't he now go $5,000 worth of ill gotten gains?
eBay and PayPal has made it easy for him dont you think?
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But poddy, if the goods are paid for via PayPal, the buyers are covered by PayPal buyer protection. So it then becomes PayPals problem, not the buyers.
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Paypal holds funds for 21day for new accounts. until the goods are received by the buyers and sometimes for weeks after. The same for old account that have been reactivated after a long break.
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Riff,
I disagree, by the time Al Capones buyers have relized that they have been ripped off there are no funds in Mr. Capones account so those buyers miss out.
Mr. Capone's seller is ok because he has been paid, Mr. Capone is happy because he has ended up with $5,000 worth of stuff.
Now what if Mr. capone has a whole gang doing the same thing?
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Silly question but ebay has certified ebay trainers..is there such a thing as a paypal qualified trainer ?....I have always wondered....
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Poddy. PayPal will pay out the claim from a buyer regardless of the funds in the sellers account. Please show evidence to that they do not.
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I was waiting for you.... :( had to clean my own leather off.....
I dont think there is Yib???
Would be a good idea though, I wonder if it is in the ebay training stuff?
Col..is you here????
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I frequently read on the eBay U.S. boards about PP not living up to their charter.
Here's one now:
http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Seller-Central/I-Just-Got/520131126 (http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Seller-Central/I-Just-Got/520131126)
You decide what's up widdat!!!
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/ODD%20Stuff/cannabals.jpg)
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Guys, if Mr Carpone is trying to re-use the money he just got in his new shonky account he will need to wait till the buyers get their goods from him and are happy, paypal will hold the money, he can't use it....!!!
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I was waiting for you.... :( had to clean my own leather off.....
I dont think there is Yib???
Would be a good idea though, I wonder if it is in the ebay training stuff?
Col..is you here????
You must have been reading my mind IMP !...I must ask Col if paypal was a subject as part of the course?...[ btw I had to get the carpet cleaner back to safeway so it will have to be a hands on job now....LOL ]
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Tello, we have a separate seller protection policy in Aus, which will protect the seller provided they have proof of postage. It does pay out.
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to be a hands on job now....LOL
Warm water, okies??
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Easy done.
(http://i673.photobucket.com/albums/vv95/ozrt/PPRefund.jpg)
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Tello, we have a separate seller protection policy in Aus, which will protect the seller provided they have proof of postage. It does pay out.
OK.
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Can't read that poddy.
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to be a hands on job now....LOL
Warm water, okies??
Some hand cream would be nice....jasmine scented of course... :green:
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Imp,
Are you saying thay if I opened up a new seller account and sold an item I would not get paid until 21 days later and perhaps weeks after that ?
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It says:-
We were able to recover $60.68 AUD from the seller and processed a refund to you. -$84.00 AUD
$60.68 was all that was in the sellers account
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Was it your transaction poddy? Was it appealed? What did PayPal tell you?
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via paypal yes...it happened to a friend of mine, I investigated it for her the sale was for $1,400 she had to wait for over a mth for the money to be relied by paypal, the buyer had to tell paypal he was happy, even then it was 1 week longer...paypal told her it was safety measure to prevent fly by nighters...
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Hi Poddy
Where did you get that info (GIF) from? And how old is it?
The Paypal protection policy was changed when they disbanded Ebay Buyer Protection some 2 years ago. Also, the policies in Australia are completely different to those in the USA, where they have far lower levels of cover.
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Yes it was questioned and the answere was that what was recoverable was refunded and that no further correspondance will be entered into. Full stop.
Imp, I will put what you have stated to the test tomorrow and report back
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Ok, be interesting if they do it to you too...she was really pissed about it because she needed the money, the buyer told paypal and still they held the money...she called then three time to let it go..
She was cross at them but understood why when I told her that in the past some shonkies had ripped people off.
I have seen a few members talking about it on ebay.
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Llama that is less than 2 years old, and I am sure I can round up plenty more where the 'PayPal Protection' fails to live up to what it claims.
But mainly I am trying to illustrate that eBay/PayPay ID verification leaves a lot to be desired, in fact there is NO verification process what so ever.
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Imp,
If that person had it done to them thay wouldnt it apply to ALL people?
Or is there discrimination between sellers?
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Poddy. Before or after the 17th June 2008? That's the date the current policy started.
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Test case: has anyone here had an experience with an eBay seller who failed to supply, and when you opened a claim in PayPal, the result was that PayPal informed you that the seller only had x amount (partial refund, in other words) while also informing you that the claim was processed under the Buyer Protection Policy?
I've certainly heard of cases where the buyer was informed that only x amount could be recovered, but invariably from what I've heard this was when the claims were processed under the "Buyer Complaint Policy" (the wrong policy applied). When told by the buyer that this was the wrong policy, eventually the buyers received a full refund. However, I do stress "eventually". I know of several instances where the buyers had to be extremely insistent. In one instance, the person mentioned having to shout and get upset on the phone to PayPal, because calm reason got her nowhere. In another instance, repeated requests to speak to a supervisor were denied. The buyers did eventually get through to someone in PayPal who acknowledged that the wrong policy had been applied, and full refunds were issued.
Now, on the subject of bank transfers... the proper course would be to pursue the fraudulent business through the Small Claims Tribunal, but that presents difficulties in the instance of the teenage girl. But read through this (http://www.paclii.org/fj/legis/num_act/sctd1991226/) - interestingly, minors may be a party to, and bound by, proceedings in a Tribunal as though they are of full age and capacity.
This appears to explain the partial refund mentioned in the article.
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Llama that is less than 2 years old, and I am sure I can round up plenty more where the 'PayPal Protection' fails to live up to what it claims.
But mainly I am trying to illustrate that eBay/PayPay ID verification leaves a lot to be desired, in fact there is NO verification process what so ever.
Poddy I dont wish to buy in on the debate as I dont know enough about the ins and outs of paypal to make a valuable contribution but I opened my paypal account in January this year and they verified my account
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Smee, I think what Poddy means by verification (certainly what I would mean by verification) is establishing your bona fides via a 100-point verification as is done in banks. That is, you'd provide proof of identity by things like birth certificate, driver's licence, Medicare card, credit card, telephone bill marked to you at your address, and so on.
PayPal perform their "verification" by depositing two small amounts into your bank account, and you then use those numbers to affirm that the bank account is yours by entering them as though they're a code into your PayPal account.
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I still do not see the difference between verification via a valid bank account and PayPal initiated varification. Both require 100 point ID. You can't withdraw funds from a non bank varified PayPal account so where is the problem?
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Yes Contessa that is wha i mean by verification, an ID verification.
Paypal on the other hand only verify if a credit card exists, that is the sole extent of the PayPal verification process.
You can go into any post office and buy a 'Gift Credit Card' it is good for 6 months I think, you can spend the cotents of the card except for $1.50 and still have a VALID Credit Card number. which can then be used as 'verification' by PayPal.
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As I said earlier Riff The funds could be used to purchase saleable goods which would then be sold legitamately.
Goods is Money
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Poddy. Before or after the 17th June 2008? That's the date the current policy started. ???
You may be able to link that type of credit card to a PayPal account for varification but it won't enable you to withdraw funds.
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No, the problem is more complicated than that, and it's why I'm against this piggy-backing verification process.
A very major issue is that Australian PayPal account holders are not obliged to specify an Australian bank. That immediately means the requirement for verification is different to that which you might suppose.
Secondarily, there are situations in which someone who is not the main account holder (or even an account holder) has access to the account. This sometimes occurs with marital couples, for instance. It ought not to occur, but undoubtedly it does.
There are more instances, but I want mostly to point out that when one is, for instance, applying for a new Medicare card, it's not enough to prove that your bank account is yours. You have to go through the 100-point verification system. When applying for a business account with a bank, you're obliged to go through the 100-point verification system, even if you have another account with a bank.
Why are the standards of verification required by PayPal any less?
It's not fair, reasonable or right to rely on second-hand verification that may be out of date with regard to a number of issues very pertinent to being a seller. These include providing proof of address.
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Riff you keep saying this
PayPal . Both require 100 point ID.
Paypal DO NOT 'initiated varification' especially not of the type you keep saying they do
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As I said earlier Riff The funds could be used to purchase saleable goods which would then be sold legitamately.
Goods is Money
Yes but the buyers are covered by PayPal buyer protection.
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Paypal DO NOT 'initiated varification' especially not of the type you keep saying they do
It does when accounts reach a certain level of transaction frequency or value. I have been through this process.
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Riff have you not read the many clauses that state that any refund is at the descression of PayPal?
NOWHERE does it state that you are entitled to a full refund regardless of the circumstances
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I see what you mean, Riff - you're looking at this from the point of view of buyer protection in the long run rather than preventing fraud in the first case, I think.
That explains it! *nod* I'm definitely looking at this in terms of prevention. I find it's much easier to hang on my funds than recover them after something's gone wrong.
In my first year of uni, I worked part-time at a certain place - very large informational body. There were many corporate types there. Who'd have dreamed that, while attending a meeting, my purse would be stolen from my bag in a situation from which only a high-level executive could have been the culprit?
Strong suspicion amounting to certainty sadly didn't amount to evidence, and my money wasn't recovered. But that same executive was suspected by others for similar instances of petty theft, and he was later discovered in a highly compromising position by senior staff (a difference infraction, requiring another staff member if you understand me). I never got my money back, but I did see him "encouraged" to resign.
If I'd had some way of protecting my money from the theft in the first place, obviously it would have been better than trying to get it back afterwards.
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And up until that stage it does not, what is the amount and frequency levels Riff?
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NOWHERE does it state that you are entitled to a full refund regardless of the circumstances Poddy, since the new buyer protection started in June last year, buyers funds are returned regardless of the funds available in the sellers account. I have never seen anything to the contrary.
Countess it is obviously cheaper in the long run for eBay/PayPal to process claims than to prevent some of the fraud. Either way though, it works in the buyers favour.
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# Amounts that you may receive under PayPal’s Buyer Protection Policy.
IMPORTANT: For purchases made on www.ebay.com.au there is a maximum discretionary payment amount of $20,000.00 AUD.
PayPal is not obliged to pay any amount at all, or if it does decide to make a payment, to pay the maximum amount set out – you may, at PayPal's discretion, receive a payment which is less than the maximum of $20,000.00 AUD, but PayPal will not pay more than the maximum discretionary amount.
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(http://s691.photobucket.com/albums/vv277/area_51_bucket/th_funny_cat_pictures_14.jpg).... must be the longest epic thread ever... I'm gunna submit it for the Guinness book of record's !
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Hi Ya Yibi :)
Who got the last word?
I was otherwise occupied this evening
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Yes, poddy. That is from the policy however those discretionary payments are made. It would make no sense at all for PayPal to deny claims using their discretionary powers. Imagine the bad publicity.
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I see so they have included a redundant phrase in their policy.
Why would it be included if it was never going to be called on?
That it is a major loophole that the entire PayPal organization can fit through.
Its like going to the bank and depositing an amount and the teller says to you 'we will give you back your money if we feel like it but we dont have to and can't be legaly held responsible to do so.
Would you feel comfortable with that ?
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Like Riff mentioned, I have also hit the limit on transactions on one of my Paypal accounts - it is a non-verified Personal one that I use for accepting non-CC payments on. That account doesn't have either a Bank Account OR a Credit Card attached to it.
What I used to do was transfer $ from my selling accounts, then use that other account to purchase stuff, just like Poddy described. My limit was $5K, which means that is the level of activity that Paypal will endure before locking the account down.
Whether Paypal requires verification or identification is pretty much irrelevant, because they are the ones accpting that risk. Whilst there are clauses in the Paypal policies to allow them an "out" from paying, I have not seen documented evidence that a legitimate claim has been denied.
So, as Riff says, it doesn't really matter if Paypal chooses to verify sellers or not - the Buyer is protected.
And that works in reverse too - if a Buyer fraudulantly claims non-delivery against a seller, the seller is protected (providing that they have proof of shipment). It is irrelevant whether the buyer was verified or not, Paypal is the one who wears the loss if they cannot track the guilty party down.
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Like Al Capone, I have some other "anonymous" PP accounts - all you need is a Gmail address to open one.
Note that you cannot become a seller on eBay without verifying yourself in some way or another. So, that means a Credit Card or Bank Account, or nominating a VERIFIED Paypal Account. All those methods require 100 point identification to open, so there is little point requiring the exact same verification again.
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Its like going to the bank and depositing an amount and the teller says to you 'we will give you back your money if we feel like it but we dont have to and can't be legaly held responsible to do so.
Would you feel comfortable with that ?
That is EXACTLY what is actually the case in banking. This came up when the Global Crisis first arose - and the way I understand it the banks DO NOT guarantee that you will get your money back if they fold.
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I'd say, simply because they can. It would be extremely foolish to use it unless they were in financial strife, which wouldn't appear to be the case. If you owned PayPal poddy and you were told that you could include a discretionary clause to be on the safe side, would you include it? I would.
Last post.
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Countess it is obviously cheaper in the long run for eBay/PayPal to process claims than to prevent some of the fraud. Either way though, it works in the buyers favour.
I can see your point of view. I can't really agree, though. I am still out by the cost of 2 games + the postage... or at the very least, I'd be out $70. (This of course isn't because of fraud... but it illustrates the problems that might occur when people HAVE been defrauded and are required to post back the item in question.)
There are others who have experienced worse situations. Think of the frustration of being defrauded - it can be an incredibly exhausting experience. The defrauded buyer sometimes has to jump through hoops to receive the refund. Not only that, but PayPal aren't exactly quick in processing claims. A month or more to be without one's funds could be disastrous. If one's laid out money for a purchase that has to be made, what is the buyer meant to do in the interim?
Much less hassle for the buyer if fraud is prevented initially.
It's also better for those who don't use PayPal.
It's better for buyers who don't want the stress.
I also worry that PayPal are not obliged to refund buyers in the cases we've been discussing. They have been doing so, but that isn't a guarantee they will continue to do so. The very fact that a get-out clause with no liability assumed is written into the agreement causes me concern. Why include this clause at all if they will always refund those who meet their guidelines?
As I said earlier, it's not what PayPal's practice so far has been that worries me so much as what PayPal's policy allows them to do in future...
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Keep in mind that the complex 100 point ID check on Oztion hasn't stopped people from being ripped off.
Consider this... The fact that the site knows who ripped somebody off means little to stop fraud.
When you pay by DD and the person rips you off, you already KNOW where you sent the money and you already KNOW who ripped you off. That is because you know the Bank Account that you paid into.
However, that isn't worth a pinch of shite because the cops do nothing to actually persue the matter.
There is no point in requiring 100 point verification for a seller who accepts Bank Deposit. The Bank account is already verified by law, and the owner of that account is easily tracked down via the Financial Institutions, and by the Police.
There is no way in hell that Ebay or Paypal would be granted access to our private information in the same way that the Banks and Cops can. And we should thank the lord for that ;D
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OK I guess I have a challenge to spawn a PayPay account and an eBay account in the name of some outlandish no existant entity and to sell something on eBay, not to be fraudulent, but to prove a point.
If I can do that Riff and Llama will you concede the point that PayPal/eBay are not as secure as they would like everyone to believe?
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Poddy, you would be putting yourself in an invidious position.
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Keep in mind that the complex 100 point ID check on Oztion hasn't stopped people from being ripped off.
Llama, interesting - do you have some figures about how many fraudulent sellers there are on Oztion?
When you pay by DD and the person rips you off, you already KNOW where you sent the money and you already KNOW who ripped you off. That is because you know the Bank Account that you paid into.
However, that isn't worth a pinch of shite because the cops do nothing to actually persue the matter.
I agree that verification ought to go hand-in-hand with activity by police to pursue the offender in cases of fraud.
But at least with a correct address and a phone number attached to the seller, there's a degree of determent to would-be scammers who don't want to draw the attention of the police.
There is no way in hell that Ebay or Paypal would be granted access to our private information in the same way that the Banks and Cops can. And we should thank the lord for that ;D
Must agree with you there, Llama! The method mooted for verification has been focusing, I believe, on AP performing the verification. This should work well to establish identity. And PayPal or eBay have already been asking certain members for proof of identity to be faxed to them. It's not standard, but it does occur.
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Llama, interesting - do you have some figures about how many fraudulent sellers there are on Oztion?
I cannot find anything now, may have lost the links in last Hard Drive crash. So, my comment is unsubstantiated and may have to be ignored for the moment.
But at least with a correct address and a phone number attached to the seller, there's a degree of determent to would-be scammers who don't want to draw the attention of the police
Perhaps to a very minor degree, but I am not convinced that it'd make a scrap of difference. Do would-be scammers really think that the police could track them down through Oztion or Ebay, but not via the Bank Account?
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Poddy, you may be able to do this, open new accounts etc, but then take it one step further (not advisable) and rip the buyer off and I guess things would change, your ID would be looked at more closely and your experiment would end.
A criminal can open a bank account if they have the resources, they can change their identity, they can do almost anything, but use this for criminal activity and that's when things change, they will no longer be under the radar.
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Imp, I guess that eBay's 'Radar' was broken at the time of the EBS debarcle huh?
Not only was their 'Radar' broken but when other people with 'Radar' alerted them all their communication system was broken. EBS was a big 'BLIP' on many 'Radars' I think a petty Mr. Capone would not even register on eBay's 'Radar'
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Poddy, I seriously doubt that EBS were under the radar. I would think that numerous guarantees were made by EBS to eBay that the situation would be resolved and that shipments were on the way to fill those pre-paid orders. As with any business, when you have a good customer, you give them some measure of flexibility to adhere to your terms and conditions. When those conditions are not met, as with any other company, the agreement is terminated.
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And in the meantime allowing EBS to rip off even more customers.
Bit like many people hearing and reporting screams coming from a house and the authorities saying 'It's OK the occupant is a model citizen and a member of the council'
Acceptable behavior?
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Poddy, up until the time that EBS was declared insolvent, no-one had actually been ripped-off. The delivery of the goods they had paid for was delayed.
I think eBay should have stopped them trading sooner aswell but you will probably find that EBS pleaded that they needed the turnover to complete the orders. In hindsight, we can say that wasn't the best way to handle that situation but at the time, eBay had to make a decision. Shut them down in the knowledge that nobody would receive their goods or let them try to trade out of the problem.
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Riff,
You said:-
I think eBay should have stopped them trading sooner aswell but you will probably find that EBS pleaded that they needed the turnover to complete the orders. In hindsight, we can say that wasn't the best way to handle that situation but at the time, eBay had to make a decision. Shut them down in the knowledge that nobody would receive their goods or let them try to trade out of the problem.
Riff are you privy to what communication transpired betweem EBS and eBay?
Or is the above pure conjecture on your part, a guess, a fabrication?
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Notably - they (EBS) had previous form under similar circumstances. They did trade themselves out of the problem. Perhaps that was the reason for the perceived inaction.
And yes - they did offer guarantees...... of goods being delayed, stuck on the docks, refunds (by cheque and within 14 days..... that didn't eventuate)
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Allowing buyers a 45 day period to claim on PP for non-delivery means that there will definitely be a lag between when the problem starts and when Ebay/Paypal closes down the offender.
Until Paypal claims started rolling in, I doubt that there was strong financial reasons for eBay to close down EBS. But as soon as PP had to start paying out, then the alarm bells went off.
However, didn't everyone who'd paid EBS by Paypal get refunded? Or did I miss something?
And I can't see how ID verification (of any form whatsoever) could have made the slightest bit of difference to what happened with EBS?
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Or is the above pure conjecture on your part, a guess, a fabrication?
Poddy, have I said something to offend you?
Not a fabrication Poddy, just what happens in business.
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Llama,
I guess that the mountains of negative feedback, all the alerts by a lot of people were just over looked huh?
Riff,
No you have not offended me.
That question was so that I could establish if your statement held any water.
If what you said was any of those then it certainly would not.
If you were indeed privy to the communcations between EBS and eBay then your statement would be more credible
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Poddy,
You obviously do not use Paypal or eBay, I do and have not had any issues.
I like it, you don't...simple, when someone does not like something they will find fault in everything about it.
Arguing for the sake of an argument …
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(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/scream-2.gif)
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Imp,
You said:- You obviously do not use Paypal or eBay
You are very much mistaken I have used both for a number of years, I have a feedback score of 737 with 100% on one account and a feedback score of 365 with 100% on another.
With what I sell and buy it is advantagous to use PayPal because I sell worldwide and buy worldwide.
So I am at a loss why you say what you have said.
But let's not get personal and discuss the subject of the topic shall we?
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Until Paypal claims started rolling in, I doubt that there was strong financial reasons for eBay to close down EBS. But as soon as PP had to start paying out, then the alarm bells went off.
Initially, everybody, with the possible exclusion of those who came into the problem quite late... were outside PayPals terms and conditions - and no refund was payable. They then established what they believed to be a reasonable cut-off date for refunds.... which excluded some (self included) from being able to claim, due to being prior to this date.
The MD of PayPal then stated that all who had used paypal would be refunded. (now eligible for a claim again!) But then he too and fro'd on that statement - and tried to avoid honouring the obligation made.
However, didn't everyone who'd paid EBS by Paypal get refunded? Or did I miss something?
As I recall, there were two of us left. The other person had bought a quad bike for a child. Eventually, we both were refunded, the matter handled by our Australian staff here - and very well I might add.
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I've just tracked down the ABC transcript that deals with various aspects of the EBS and DDD frauds.....(DDD was a recidivist fraud) EBS in fact owed Ebay $184,000 in fees, so obviously Ebay knew something was wrong...by comparison...just try not paying your ebay account for say $20.00...you'll be shut down in a heartbeat...... http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2008/s2380759.htm BTW...Elizabeth Beal was involved in the Going Going Gone study...and she's quoting from the executive summary...so her comments are in fact qualified.
Cyber crime on the rise
Australian Broadcasting Corporation
Broadcast: 02/10/2008
Reporter: Kerry Brewster
Buying goods or services on the internet has become common practice for many Australians, but some cyber consumers have become victims to rogue sellers who fail to deliver. How common is online fraud and what are Australian authorities doing about it?
Transcript
ALI MOORE, PRESENTER: Cars, whitegoods, furniture, the Internet has it all; people are these days buying it online. It's convenient but is it safe.
There's a growing list of cyber consumers claiming to be victims of rogue sellers who fail to deliver the goods.
Police regard online fraud as a new growth industry, and popular auction sites, such as eBay are obvious targets.
How safe is it to buy online? And are services like eBay doing enough to protect buyers and sellers?
Kerry Brewster reports.
KERRY BREWSTER, REPORTER: Each day distressed eBay buyers add their voices to hundreds of complaints against a single trader.
ROBERT VANDERMEER: And I'm just looking at a screen full of it here, did not receive item, have not received item, worst eBayer ever, don't buy from this fraudster.
We've rogue sellers on there who ought not be on there and eBay are not doing enough to keep those sorts of sellers out.
DAN FEILER, EBAY SPOKESMAN: EBay takes online fraud extremely seriously. We’ve over 2,000 trust and safety personnel; they're employees who work around the clock, 24/7, trying to minimise any issue.
KERRY BREWSTER: Former BP executive Robert Vandermeer bought and sold for years on eBay without a problem.
But when a broken arm forced him inside to convalesce, his browsing led to the discovery that many others weren't so lucky.
What he's seeing here is the wreckage left by a New South Wales based iPod seller 'Daily Depot Deals', who has failed to deliver hundreds of iPods and is not responding to buyer’s complaints.
ROBERT VANDERMEER: Looks very much to me to be fraud.
KERRY BREWSTER: Of even more concern to Vandermeer is eBay's silence.
ROBERT VANDERMEER: eBay has gone to ground; they're not saying anything. So we have 200 victims, and counting, totally in the dark; they really don't know where they stand, where to go.
DAN FEILER: It's very easy from people who are looking at these things from outside without the full information, which unfortunately I am not at liberty to go into, because we do have a privacy agreement in place with all of our members.
But I can assure you we address these matters extremely proactively.
KERRY BREWSTER: While eBay maintains it's doing everything it can to prevent criminals operating on its site police have no doubt online fraud is a growth industry.
DETECTIVE SUPERINTENDENT BRIAN HAY, FRAUD & CORPORATE CRIME, QLD POLICE: Online fraud is a massive problem. It's very pervasive, it's out there, it's global.
KERRY BREWSTER: Brian Crooks is a victim of what may turn out to be the largest fraud committed on eBay in Australia. He lost more than $3,000.
BRIAN CROOKS, FRAUD VICTIM: I was looking for a quad for Brad's birthday because he really, really wanted one. And we browsed the through the Internet and we found one that fitted the bill exactly.
KERRY BREWSTER: Brisbane based ebusiness supplies, or EBS, was eBay's seventh largest seller in Australia.
To pay for the bike Brian Crooks used eBay's online payment system PayPal believing it protected him from fraud.
BRIAN CROOKS: PayPal is the only payment method that offers up to $20,000 in buyer protection.
KERRY BREWSTER: But six weeks later despite emailed assurances were EBS, there was still no bike.
BRIAN CROOKS: There's another one telling me they're going to close it. The second delivery date on the 10th of July when it didn't turn up, that's when the alarm bells to ring for me.
KERRY BREWSTER: EBS was days from liquidation. Its owner had reportedly fled to China, leaving behind around 2,000 buyers waiting in vain for performers worth more than $1 million. But was it fraud?
DETECTIVE SUPERINTENDENT BRIAN HAY: We're not experts in financial audits; we're not experts in going through companies records, it's perfectly normal that a liquidator would go in, they would wind up the assets of the company, they would look at the books, the balance sheets, if they find a problem, they then refer it to us, and that is normal business.
KERRY BREWSTER: Although PayPal set up a special compensation fund, promising refunds for all, Brian Crooks says months of frustrating correspondence with eBay and PayPal has left him feeling ripped off again.
BRIAN CROOKS: When you speak to them by the phone you're told that it'll be referred to another department, and then they keep asking you for details which you have already sent.
And then they keep asking you to file a dispute, which you've already filed, and then arbitrarily they just sent me an email to say "your dispute is now closed".
DAN FEILER: My understanding is that the vast majority of buyers were paid by PayPal. And that if buyers still haven't been paid they can still contact PayPal.
KERRY BREWSTER: So does PayPal guarantee buyer protection? The head of the ACCC has already warned eBay and its subsidiary PayPal that he's watching how they promote their buyer protection policy.
GRAEME SAMUEL, ACCC: If those terms and conditions are, for example, set out in small print, which people don't read or can't read or can't understand, then there's a prospect of consumers being confused to the point of being misled or deceived.
KERRY BREWSTER: In the EBS wash up it emerged eBay was in fact its largest creditor, owed a massive $184,000 in listing fees.
(To Dan Feiler) The 184,000 from EBS would have rung a few alarms?
DAN FEILER: We acted very, very promptly on this. We followed our due process, which I outlined earlier. And I think this... the amount we are owed really speaks more to the volume of listings that the seller had rather than the time frame.
KERRY BREWSTER: But Robert Vandermeer argues eBay must have known EBS was in financial trouble for months while continuing to extend credit to the ailing company
ROBERT VANDERMEER: EBS is their seventh largest seller, with sales of $2, 3, $4 million a year perhaps, then eBay profits quite well from the commissions on those sales.
So it's in their interest to prop up a seller and keep them selling, both from a reputation perspective and from a purely financial perspective.
KERRY BREWSTER: Whether the EBS debacle is revealed as fraud or not, the scandal led to calls for tougher regulations of the online marketplace.
ELIZABETH BEAL, FORMER DIRECTOR, COMMUNICATIONS LAW CENTRE: I don't think there's any real motivation for eBay to stop fraud. They still benefit from fraudulent sellers because they still collect the fees.
KERRY BREWSTER: Elizabeth Beal oversaw a report into the rights of online consumers. Almost half of the eBay users she surveyed had experienced a bad purchase, with most buyers unable to find the seller or get a response from eBay.
ELIZABETH BEAL: eBay have an obligation to provide a safe system and operate in a way that prevents negligence, if they are benefitting from the transactions taking place. So in our view there are legal obligations on eBay that have not been fully tested.
KERRY BREWSTER: And what about that iPod seller Robert Vandermeer has been tracking. The same seller traded on eBay before; different name, but same story.
In the 60 days before he was deregistered in 2007, the complaints flooded in.
ROBERT VANDERMEER: This person hasn't changed their ways, and eBay has allowed them to re-establish and repeat the exercise.
DETECTIVE SUPERINTENDENT BRIAN HAY: Within minutes of getting that skimmed data they can clean out the accounts.
KERRY BREWSTER: According to police most online fraudsters are repeat offenders.
ELIZABETH BEAL: If eBay made it more difficult for persons to sell goods online without providing proper verification of who they were, then there would be less likely that rogues would enter the space.
KERRY BREWSTER: Why don't you conduct something like 100 point ID check?
DAN FEILER: Well, once again, in this day and age, when people can create all sorts of identities, that's not going to help. It's the activity that people do online that is the best indication.
KERRY BREWSTER: Watch this online space. If the US experience is anything to go buy, online fraud will grow as e commerce expands.
Brian Crooks bought a second quad bike for his beloved grandson; this time around he paid on pick up.
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Ahhh HAAA - that's right, I remember you now r3830.
I wonder if the EBS things is why there is now an automatic warning message on all items in the ebay "Items Won" list that are more than about 30 days old. It says something like "Don't miss the opoortunity to make a claim on Paypal within 45 days" or some such.
Bloody presale is a minefield at the best of times - I kind-of understand why PP has the clauses that they do, but it doesn't help the consumers who trust that the vendor is telling the truth. I assume that in the case of EBS, that PP refunds would have been instant for those who claimed within 45 days of payment?
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Cupie,
It's sad to read this again. Reminds me of the efforts of "Wobbit the Bwuce", who went to sooo much trouble on behalf of all of us. Ebay barred him from the site shortly after this matter had resolved itself.
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Saint_Llama.... have a problem with the 'Saint' part of this name. Not the same Llama that I too remember? Wasn't sure whether I should ask or not. ;D
This matter remains - like PTSD, when you see it again. We all learned much from the exercise..... and your efforts, along with so many others were priceless in the outcome. Haven't forgotten that!!!
Bloody presale is a minefield at the best of times
That is absolutely correct - but didn't know of the pitfalls at the time. I believed that we would be protected - as the adds on TV said regarding $20K buyer protection. Fortunately, in the end, we were.
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Hey you Posters!
I ain't got nuddin to do widdit...but I gotta tell ya:
Ain't none of yous-is posting in color, ah, heh-hehhhh....
Kudos to Bo Diddley/Signifying Blues
http://www.last.fm/music/Bo+Diddley/Signifying+Blues/Signifying+Blues (http://www.last.fm/music/Bo+Diddley/Signifying+Blues/Signifying+Blues)
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John Stewart (RIP) Wuz da man! Go the folk singers!
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r3830,
Fortunately, in the end, we were.
Do you think that would have been the case without the mamoth effort but in by so called 'Paypal Antagonists', you know those people who gave of their time, effort, resources and yes money freely, just to see justice done.
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Yes r3830...there were a number of casualties picked off for being altruistic.
And no Llama, the victims of the EBS debacle were still waiting right up until a few days before the ABC story in October, and as if by magic, they were contacted by Paypal and offered refunds...even though they'd been declined previously...I can find the news stories on that too...it wasn't instant, because Paypal had already determined that they wouldn't be reimbursing consumers frm the outset...everything past that was aimed at forcing them to reconsider.....so the answer was no from the beginning....As I said, many were refunded within days of the ABC feature going to air.....spooky eh?
That's why DAnny boy was so confident when he said' oh, I thought they'd all been reimbursed.....lol....maybe so by then, but they didn't make it easy by any stretch of the imagination...and...if a class action had been taken out against Paypal/Ebay...they would have lost in the real world....no doubt the Ombudsman provided valuable insight to Paypal in this regard by overturning many of their declinations
The actual administrators SV Partners I think, were inundated with claims from consumers out of pocket....I'm just having a look to see if any resolution came out of it....If I find something I'll post it...
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Tello,
I am disapointed :( you didnt mention Warren Zevon ( also RIP ) shame on you dude
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Tello,
I am disapointed :( you didnt mention Warren Zevon shame on you dude
Oh, shame on me.
That's Rich!
High 4. Something's broken.
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In fact Warren was true to his words in the song 'I'll sleep when I'm dead'
I hope he is haveing a peaceful sleep
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:huh:
If it's so evil and so easy to missuse, so easy to hack into, so bad etc, why use it?
ahhh..got me miffed..
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Fortunately, in the end, we were.
Do you think that would have been the case without the mamoth effort but in by so called 'Paypal Antagonists', you know those people who gave of their time, effort, resources and yes money freely, just to see justice done.
G'day Poddy :)
I was gearing up to fight my own battle when this occurred. A search on google identified another poster on Ebay who was talking about EBS, and hence, I discovered the forums.... specifically, the RT. There, I discovered many others who were in the same boat.... didn't know really what to do.... didn't know that many others were affected. But the help provided, the empathy from these people, the advice from people who I'd never met which was offered freely.... I couldn't believe it!
In answer to your question...... the positive outcome would have been far more difficult - would in all probability have not occurred and we would probably have walked away with nothing. Brian Crooks is a nice fellow - he would have lost $3000 if not for the people on RT. Strangely, the first PayPal intervention occurred from a young lady, PayPal_Amanda, who contacted me directly on the forum.
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The actual administrators SV Partners I think, were inundated with claims from consumers out of pocket....I'm just having a look to see if any resolution came out of it....If I find something I'll post it...
No wonder. Didn't a lot of people pay via Bank deposit?
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Brian Crooks is a nice fellow
This has got me thinking.
It's a Stunner, or an OxyMoron Alert.
My money is on "Both"!!
sorry, I couldn't resist.
It'll never happen again. Except on my thread.
Or not.
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/catsandbarsi.gif)
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My money is on "Both"!!
Tello - You're a shocker!!!
Crooks by name - not by nature ;D
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There was a strong community effort to try to help those involved in the EBS debâcle. It was terrific to see.
r3830, you might remember the unsainted Llama - same person. (Llama, post your Groucho Marx image here to prove it!)
There were a number of problems involved in the EBS situation. First of all - and this boggles the mind, really - no one was eligible to be refunded under PayPal's terms. At all.
But the reason for this is a very misleading discrepancy between eBay's and PayPal's policy with regard to pre-sale items. I have to agree with Llama that "presale is a minefield at the best of times". The discrepancy is that eBay's policy stated 30 day supply had to be a term of sale in order for consumers to be protected, and PayPal's policy stated 20 day supply. Even though some people had started submitting complaints within the 45 day period, they were informed they were not eligible for a refund.
This seemed at the time (and continues to seem) unconscionable to me. eBay allowed a very misleading thing to happen. Consumers were deceived by contradictory information. I also feel that eBay facilitated the EBS debâcle. Several of you have mentioned very valid points about businesses allowing suppliers to continue trading - but I think the application of it to EBS is only partially justified. Unless eBay were willing to step into the gap and take the full fall of EBS's failure to supply to the consumers who had already fully paid EBS, I find myself asking what right eBay had to put those consumers into the position of fall guy. By giving EBS that leeway, knowing the HUGE debt EBS owed eBay, eBay acted poorly.
That's my perception - that it was eBay who should have born the responsibility. Instead, eBay denied responsibility and shoved it off onto PayPal, thus shifting the focus away from eBay's failure to act and onto "who paid by PayPal and opened a claim within 45 days?" I think it's a different situation; I think it needed to focus on eBay's actions. Ah well, it's largely done with, although I believe some consumers are still awaiting resolution.
Thank goodness that some were refunded.
But I see a pattern emerging of lack of verification and lack of checking. Remember that EBS changed ownership? The account changeover is against eBay's own policies, but eBay either didn't notice or didn't care. I'm not satisfied by either explanation; I find that once again, it makes me think eBay was culpable in failure to act.
Oh, we were talking earlier about ID verification. A great many scammers on eBay feel more enabled to commit fraud in the knowledge that they can give a false address, a false name and a false phone number. To prove that they can do this, I need go no further than to mention the many IDs which NARPed and NARUed members have created. To prove that these fake IDs can buy and sell on eBay with no one checking on them, I need go no further than to mention the many recorded instances of people who tried to get in touch with their buyers or sellers, only to find that it's a wrong number and that the address given leads nowhere.
Of course ID verification won't stop all scammers. But it will undoubtedly stop some.
The teenage girl who was the subject of the opening post here is an example of someone found by the bank account into which money was deposited. I wonder whether she simply didn't realise that she could be found through that. I wish I could talk to her... find out what was going on in her mind...
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Good afternoon Countess, :)
Remember that EBS changed ownership? The account changeover is against eBay's own policies, but eBay either didn't notice or didn't care.
That part was intriguing. As I recall, one partner passed his share over for the princely sum of $1. I remember a thread questioning whether 'powerseller' status could be purchased, resulting from this change. The rules as I recall stated as you mention above - and had to be earned. Obviously not the case with EBS, as trading continued on from the point of change until the failure occurred. Perhaps Ebay didn't care - EBS was, at the time, the sixth biggest PS in the country.
I also had a problem with Paypal being clobbered with this problem. ie: Ebay accepted the EBS adds that compromised Paypal's rules - (the disparity between 20 & 45 days) and yet, Paypal was expected to cover the loss. But then - Ebay owns PayPal.
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I also feel that eBay facilitated the EBS debâcle. Several of you have mentioned very valid points about businesses allowing suppliers to continue trading - but I think the application of it to EBS is only partially justified. Unless eBay were willing to step into the gap and take the full fall of EBS's failure to supply to the consumers who had already fully paid EBS, I find myself asking what right eBay had to put those consumers into the position of fall guy. By giving EBS that leeway, knowing the HUGE debt EBS owed eBay, eBay acted poorly.
Hi Countess....my enquiries with ASIC at the time, confirmed that it is in fact illegal to trade whilst apparently insolvent......So, if Ebay did in fact allow EBS the opportunity to trade with suspicions of insolvency, then it's not entirely responsible is it? But they'd know, as I now know that as a third party, they can't be implicated or held responsible in this type of scenario because the Corporations Act just doesn't cover third party facilitation of insolvent trading.... (which is not to say they shouldn't be made accountable) After all, EBS owed them $185,000 as well, and obviously they wanted their money back...too bad if consumers were placed at risk and ripped off whilst they had a bet each way and let EBS trade on.
I think ASIC will have had a very good look into this issue, given that it seems to have been a very sophisticated sting operation, set up to look bonafide, and yet, with devious intentions, and fully facilitated by Ebay in its reach and impact on a Nation Wide pool of victims...how else could EBS have defrauded so many without having access to such a platform? Of course Ebay is complicit but our laws are inadequate at this stage and as I said, Ebay know that. The DPP , can only really go after the Directors of the Company, not the venue that turned a blind eye.
When you consider this scenario, and the fact that Feiler runs around saying that Ebay is a 'Good Corporate Citizen'? well, what can you say...lol
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In my opinion, this country is at least 10 years if not more behind the times... we have had the internet for so long now and seen every scam and fraud imaginable... yet our laws are so antiquated... the decision / law makers need to sit down and rewrite the book regarding the internet and protection for Australian users... it's been long over due... but I guess someone in government would actually have to work...we couldn't have that could we?... just a bunch of fat cows fleecing our our taxes with nothing to show for it...politicians disgust me.
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WOW Yibi,
The pollys on Earth are exactly the same as where you come from!!!!!
Maybe Pollys are supetbeings that are plotting Universal Supremacy
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No...Poddy...not the vogons....quick grab your towel.
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WOW Yibi,
The pollys on Earth are exactly the same as where you come from!!!!!
Maybe Pollys are supetbeings that are plotting Universal Supremacy
Yes Poddy.....through rectile probing trying to get back to where they come from....
Oh look !... there's one now look over his house...
(http://s691.photobucket.com/albums/vv277/area_51_bucket/th_headsupdsw.jpg)
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Ah Yes Yib.....I recognise this condition...
Cranial Rectal Inversion Syndrome, and it doesn't just afflict Pollies
By the Way, Hitchhikers Guide was written in the 50's and the term Vogon...is NoGov when spelled backwards....so there you have it....grab your towels and remember 'Don't Panic'
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Dont you have to drink copious amounts of beer and consume a lot of peanuts as well ?
Maybe you can just put on a hat and try to look and act intelligent, that way you might be safe.
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Saint_Llama.... have a problem with the 'Saint' part of this name. Not the same Llama that I too remember? Wasn't sure whether I should ask or not. ;D
I became a saint when I came here... there was talk that all the saints of RT would come marching in ;D
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r3830, you might remember the unsainted Llama - same person. (Llama, post your Groucho Marx image here to prove it!)
But, But... I only use that when I am incognito...
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AHHHH - Now That's the Llama I remember. Love the ear tags! :llamabanana:
Great to see you Saint Llama!
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Without a doubt, that's one of the funniest pictures I've seen on eBay forums. I laughed when I first saw it; I still laugh every time I see it.
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I almost instantly got a slap for that Groucho one!
Hello llama-spit,
Recently we became aware that your eBay registered account was involved in the
following activity:
Encouraging others to violate eBay policies or the eBay User Agreement. For
clarification of this policy, please visit this page:
http://forums.ebay.com.au/thread.jspa?threadID=100076615&tstart=0
which is not permitted at eBay.
This is a copy of your post:
llama-spit (16 ) View Listings | Report 16-08-08 23:02 EST 162 of 169
countessalmirena (111 ) View Listings | Report 16-08-08 22:42 EST 156 of 163
Llama-spit, for your next assignment I would like you to set up a bank account with
false ID. You may use a false moustache if you wish.
(http://i35.tinypic.com/ou1cv6.jpg)
OK - I have everything ready now...
(http://i26.tinypic.com/2zxy3ya.jpg)
And ShaneOz ignored the appeal :(
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I remember that post !.... you got slapped for that !?... no humor those ebay Bots... LOL
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"My name is not Allan Packer" :roflmao:
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They just don't understand our humour, do they?
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Yibi, there were a whole host of us getting slapped silly for even just posting a smiley face and nothing else.
But some say that they were deserved because they violated eBay policy.
Oh well !!!
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Yibi, there were a whole host of us getting slapped silly for even just posting a smiley face and nothing else.
But some say that they were deserved because they violated eBay policy.
Oh well !!!
I've had a good run lately... posted a few smilies and no salp's errr or slap's either!..... pushin the envelope me think's!
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(http://images3.cafepress.com/product/62002833v5_350x350_Front.jpg) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/hitchhikers/gallery/images/340/zaphod2.jpg)
I love Kurt Vonnegut, I recall reading everything I could get my hands on that he had written many many years ago..... and remember....
(http://www.tildemark.com/images/dont-panic.jpg)
and always remember the meaning of life is ...(http://blog.dv4.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/42-300x253.gif)
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The actual administrators SV Partners I think, were inundated with claims from consumers out of pocket....I'm just having a look to see if any resolution came out of it....If I find something I'll post it...
No wonder. Didn't a lot of people pay via Bank deposit?
Just getting back to the thread topic.....and without a reasoned debate turning into the usual subjective argument....I think the comment above misses the point........
Ebay were negligent to all consumers in the EBS fraud, in even allowing it to happen, and even more so once it became a KNOWN risk. Nevertheless, after EBS, there was DDD, LI and then CS....... It's not a matter of feeling like they're in the wrong..... under consumer protection laws, and tested in the right arena, they WOULD have been found to have been negligent in their duty of care...they profit from it, so they are responsible to ensure their marketplace is safe, irrespective of payment method...it's simple really. And this is supported by statements made by more learned in the field of consumer protection. I'm simply agreeing with those statements.
You might recall on the ABC transcript the following:
ELIZABETH BEAL:eBay have an obligation to provide a safe system and operate in a way that prevents negligence,if they are benefiting from the transactions taking place. So in our view there are legal obligations on eBay that have not been fully tested
This was their 'legal' view....and the recommendations made by that precedent study (Going, Going, Gone) addressed mitigation strategies, and consumer redress strategies on a qualified, National basis. I tend to trust published data over supposition and I definitely don't subscribe to the 'blame the victim mentality' that seems to be fostered by statements such as the above. It demonstrates no sympathy whatsoever for victims of injustice.
The law doesn't support this view, not even the TPA supports this view, and you may note in regard to the Paypal victims in particular, that Graeme Samuel had this to say.
The head of the ACCC has already warned eBay and its subsidiary PayPal that he's watching how they promote their buyer protection policy.
GRAEME SAMUEL, ACCC: If those terms and conditions are, for example, set out in small print, which people don't read or can't read or can't understand, then there's a prospect of consumers being confused to the point of being misled or deceived.
That's just an example..i.e. small print...it also applies to ambiguity that may cause confusion, or omissions that may cause a consumer to be misled.
So whether it's Paypal, or whether it's Bank Deposit, Ebay had a duty of care to protect ALL consumers from this dodgy trader and also plenty of opportunity, but they didn't bother. The fraud originates from the seller, not the payment method.... but as Elizabeth Beal noted:
I don't think there's any real motivation for eBay to stop fraud. They still benefit from fraudulent sellers because they still collect the fees.
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(http://www.tildemark.com/images/dont-panic.jpg)
and always remember the meaning of life is ...(http://blog.dv4.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/42-300x253.gif)
But......what was the question?
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But......what was the question?
The question was....
What is the meaning of life, the universe and everything ??
:wine:
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I'm hungry.
Tonight is Zombie Night in The House of Tello.
Free parking. No cover charge.
Open till sunrise, Nevada Coast Time.
Come as you are.
(Why is 42 a special number? I don't get it!
Woe! I don't read these boards anyway, so that's ON me, sorry....)