HOW TO IDENTIFY AND REPORT POSTAGE RORTING ON EBAY

[*cupie*]

After many years buying on Ebay, I have to say that Postage Rorting remains my number one pet hate...and it's so obvious as to make it blatant......so why isn't ebay doing something...or are they the reason it's getting worse?.....

For instance, I notice that since RBA declined on Paypal fees being legitimately passed onto consumers openly, sellers are resorting to recouping their costs via postage rorts.....some are more honest than others.....I won't 'out' anyone here, or report a seller until I've clarified why their postage is so high.  I've found that it usually helps to email about the postage cost and tell the seller you use Bank deposit...you'd be amazed how many reduce their listed postage cost then.....mmmmhhh!!!!  What would that indicate?...lol

Anyone else with similar examples should email the seller first and ask why they are charging such exorbitant postage....If in breach of Ebay's postage policy...then do us all a favour and report them to Ebay......here's a few examples.

    Wholesale Sterling Silver Pendants & Rings
    Current bid:   AU $6.50   
    Postage:   AU $20.00Registered

This is 10 items only, and would ship for $5.00 or less regular plus rego = $7.80 at the very most.  This seller is charging $11.20 on top of the real postage price and his listing then states: "Sorry No Postage discounts!!!"  I've emailed this one to ask how he can justify such a huge postage cost.  Can't wait to hear what the justifications are......

And this one.....

    Silver Necklace
    Starting bid:   AU $5.00   
    Postage:   AU $8.00PrePaid Parcel Post Satchels 500g

She's quoting $8.00 regular 500 gram prepaid satchel...and well, we all know there is no such bloody thing don't we.....?...meanwhile the item listed is so small as to cost no more than a few bucks to post...I know this because I sold online for 7 years.......Like since when would it cost 8.00 to post a small necklace ????????.....and since when has 500gram, prepaid satchels gone up to $8.00?....say anything......so I emailed her to ask whether it might be a mistake...stand by for the usual justifications for postage rorting to follow I'll bet....maybe not....I'll let you know what she says....I asked...

       Hi, I was going to bid on this item and then noticed the  
       postage cost....thought you may have made a
       mistake.....500gram prepaid satchels are 5.00, not 8.00...so,
       just wondering if this postage price is wrong?...Cheers.

Finally, at least one seller I found this morning is actually honest about a postage surcharge being imposed for Paypal use..... (oh, but BTW, only one necklace is actually Silver...lol....so the title is misleading to say the least)

    6 lovely silver necklaces
    Starting bid:   AU $4.99   
    Postage:   AU $8.50Registered Small

       6 lovely necklace 1} small ball one is STERLING SILVER    
       2}.blue diamonti glass stone  avon 3}large clear sliding
       diamonti 4}ballerina with clip at bottom for charms 5}clear
       plastic with flower 6}sliding heart with small diamonti  ALL
       IN GREAT CONDITION  POST FOR BANK DEPOSIT $1.10
       POST FOR PAY PAL $8.50 pickup welcome

Clearly then, this seller is prepared to mark up her postage cost by a massive $4,60 on the true cost of registered post Australia Wide, which would be $3.90 based on her B/deposit postage rate....see how that works?  I'd say she's a typical example of a seller adding Paypal Fees to the postage cost openly.....

If you find similar cases of blatant postage rorting, post them here....don't necessarily 'Out' the seller, just give an example, (As above Item, Listing price, Postage) and if it breaches Ebay policy, then it would be appropriate to report the listing and see if it's removed or amended....I've included the Ebay Excessive Postage Policy and the link to report sellers in breach of postage policies (not that it's easy to find or connected to the listing).

I found this information which seems to speak for itself as to how Easy Ebay don't make it to report listing violations...round and round and round we go....the word 'Locate' is operative here.

To report a policy violation:

   1.Locate and review the policy page that deals with the
   breach.
   2.Click the “Report” link at the bottom of the page. For example,
   see Excessive Postage and Handling policy.
   3. Enter the item number(s) of the listing that you wish to report.
   4.Click the Send button to send your message to eBay Customer
   Support.

Sound Easy?...lol....there's also a report link in each listing but conveniently it has no option for excessive posting violations that I could see....lmao....They don't want to make it easy do they?...or Ebay's Policies would have to walk the way they talk....

Here's the policy page on excessive postage and right down the bottom you'll see a 'report' link that will take you to a complaint form to report any listing you find in violation of Excessive Postage Policies..

REPORT EXCESSIVE POSTAGE RORTERS HERE:
http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/policies/listing-shipping.html

[*cupie*]

Ebay's Excessive Postage Policy
http://help.ebay.com.au/Help/Policies/Selling_-_listings/Excessive_postage

Sellers may charge reasonable postage and handling fees to cover the costs for mailing, packaging, and handling the items they are selling. eBay will rely on member reports and other resources to determine whether or not a seller’s postage, handling, packaging, and/or insurance charges are excessive, inaccurate, misleading, unreasonable or unnecessary.

eBay may also place limits on the amount of postage and handling that can be charged for flat-rate domestic postage on certain categories of items. For more information about postage and handling charge limits.

Sellers must charge only actual postage and actual packaging costs (or less) in order to be in compliance with this policy. Sellers must ensure that the details of their postage costs are accurately described in their listings and that their postage costs are not misleading in any way. Postage and handling fees must not be listed as a percentage of the final sale price. More details are set out below.

In addition to the final listing price, sellers are permitted to charge any of the following additional costs:

    * Actual Postage cost: This must be limited to the actual cost  
    (i.e. postage) for posting the item.
    * Packaging cost: This must be limited to the actual cost of
    packaging materials used for the item, such as bubble wrap,
    tape, box and mailing label and must not be excessive or
    unnecessary.
    * Handling cost: This must be limited to the reasonable
    costs for selecting and preparing the item for shipping and must
    not be excessive or unnecessary.
    * Insurance: Sellers offering insurance must only  
    charge the actual fee for insurance relating to the item (or
    less). No additional amount may be added, such as “self-
    insurance”. Sellers must only offer postal insurance provided by
    a licensed 3rd party insurance provider.

Note: Postage and Handling costs must not include storage costs, employee costs (except for the reasonable cost of selecting and preparing the item for shipping), business overhead expenses, or any other general business cost. For cross border transactions, sellers may not collect tariffs and duties. However, buyers may be responsible for actual, applicable tariffs, and duties as required by respective country laws. Violations of this policy may result in a range of actions, including:

    * Listing cancellation
    * Limits on account privileges
    * Account suspension
    * Forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings
    * Loss of PowerSeller status

 
Some Examples

Sony 2 GB Memory Stick Pro Card
BIN: AU $37.35
Postage and Handling: AU $26.99 Standard Post
Explanation: The seller states that the item will be posted “Standard Post” and not overnight or private courier company. Given the small size/weight of this item, overall postage and handling charges are inflated.

Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (2001, DVD)
BIN: AU $9.00
Postage and Handling: Not specified
Item description: Postage is AU $15.00 to anywhere in Australia
Explanation: This seller is charging domestic postage in excess of the $8 postage limit for DVDs.

New Pink Motorola L6 L 6 Unlocked Slvr GSM World Phone
BIN: AU $1.00
Postage and Handling: Free within Australia
Item description: Postage is AU $164.95 to anywhere in Australia
Explanation: This seller is charging all costs for this item in the postage price thus hiding the “true” cost for this item from buyers. Further, by stating that postage is ‘free’ but then stating a postage price in the item description, details of the postage cost are misleading and likely to confuse buyers.
Examples of Listings in Compliance:

NEW SONY ERICSSON T237 GSM UNLOCKED COLOR PHONE * FEDEX
BIN: AU $36.95
Postage: AU $18.95 Standard Flat Rate Postage for Courier Company
Explanation: The seller is posting this item via Courier Company and states the actual flat rate cost in the listing.

Creative Labs Zen Micro Photo 8GB Pink MP3 Player
BIN: AU $195
Postage: AU $11.99 Courier Company Surface Mail
Explanation: The seller is posting the item via Courier Company Surface Mail and is charging actual postage prices plus a reasonable fee.

SOLID STATE Abstract Art Painting Taylor HUGE
Painting measures 36” x 24” / canvas supported by panel
Starting bid: AU $20
Postage: AU $40 Courier Company Surface Mail
Explanation: The postage charge is greater due to the size/bulk of the item being posted
and custom crating.
Why does eBay have this policy?

This policy reduces the potential for confusion among bidders about the full cost of an item. Listings that include misleading or excessive postage fees lead to a poor buying experience and un-level the playing field by putting sellers who charge reasonable
postage charges at a disadvantage. These listings undermine the trust and legitimacy of eBay’s marketplace.

[tellomon]

You seriously think I can read all that?

Let me try the Reader's Digest version if ya got it!  

And what's "Rorting"?

[*cupie*]

Increase your attention span and rejoin the living ...

And what's "Rorting"?

You ARE kidding me right?.....

[shyer]

You can drive a train through those rules. IE free regular post for all payment methods ebay allows except paypal and within same postcode as mine. More prices for different states.

 And PAY$PAL post is by horse drawn guilded carriage to your local PO and then auspost delivers registered to you. cost now $8005. (horses only do about 50 kms a day at $200 a day wages, $100 motel food allowance, Plus horse feed ECT)1000 kms 20 days X $400. Plus PO charges $5

[tellomon]

Rorting. Not kidding.
Izzint that what pigs do in the pen?

I dunno.....

Not spamming ya this time.

[*cupie*]

  at Shyer....loved the analogy...

And PAY$PAL post is by horse drawn guilded carriage to your local PO and then auspost delivers registered to you. cost now $8005. (horses only do about 50 kms a day at $200 a day wages, $100 motel food allowance, Plus horse feed ECT)1000 kms 20 days X $400. Plus PO charges $5

Not spamming ya this time.

Ah...so you finally admit it....Troll....

A Rort is something that is set up to rip people off or take advantge of something...e.g. Politicians are often accused of rorting the system with their noses in the trough -See recent UK example...lmao....

Similar to Grifting but not quite so orchestrated....it's another form of fraud if you apply the concept of...deception or taking advantage for profit.....

[tellomon]

Is 'Rorting'.. Strine, then?

Sorry to troll yer shite!
I feel yer passion for the subject....

[tellomon]

deception or taking advantage for profit.....

Used Car Dealers!

C):-{= <" they prefer the term 'pre-owned' "<<

[*cupie*]

...lmao....this is after all, the forum for Ebay related discussions though tello...just saying..lol...nothing to do with passion, it just pisses me off that Sellers are so OTT with postage.  Anyone who bids often will tell you that if the postage is reasonable, they are more likely to bid more on the item itself, and buy multiple items...I always look at a sellers other items when they indicate that they will combine for a reasonable price.  I also bid more when I know the postage is low.  Sellers who provide reasonable postage and combine without trying to rort buyers into double or triple the real cost are an asset to ebay...those who rort postage are not.

....and...you may be right....Rorting is, I believe, an Aussie Strine Term because I've never been able to find a dictionary definition for it....but in Oz it means taking advantage of something or someone and is considered a 'rip off' by any other name.

[tellomon]

Right then.....

No need to show me the door. I know where it is.

Carry on!

[*cupie*]

Who's showing you the door?  just said, I'm talking about an ebay related issue that annoys me and no doubt many others....why so sensitive Nancy?

Used Car Dealers!

C):-{= <" they prefer the term 'pre-owned' "<<

Bit Like Real Estate Agents

'Renovators Dream'

[tellomon]

.why so sensitive Nancy?

This Thread deserves more respect than my spam posts can offer. And the guilt is enormous....

I will not trash this Thread.

C):-{= <" word "<<

[*cupie*]

....should my pocket be feeling wet round about now?.....

[tellomon]

[gr8-expectations]

Good morning Cupie, Tello and everyone,

re all the above (excluding trollos hijack attempt lol) i think as in all things balance is required. One thing many buyers never think of is the cost of time to pack and send and the actual cost of packaging, although many like me use recycled materials (in about 50% of cases but often have to buy bubblewrap, boxes, postbags etc., not cheap) but it sometimes takes time to knock them into suitable shape etc.

To me the whole emphasis is on the seller doing this, that and the other and throwing in all these things. Given that the end result and feedback and a satisfactory transaction is largely based on the buyer receiving the goods well packed and as described, I have a problem with buyers who nitpick about the tiniest cost and expect that the seller will take time out of their day to send something, trek to the po, stand in a queue and lovingly (as in my case generally) pack and send something ALL with no reward.

I think its all gotten too dog eat dog, at one end of the spectrum there are terrible sellers (prolly what cupie is talking about) who overcharge massively for postage etc and then end up many times sending standard mail because they think they can get away with it, at the other end of the spectrum are those honest sellers who really try their best and get little or no reward for all that, yeah a bit of good feedback but rarely have i ever received an email saying "oh I see the postage cost you more can I send you more money?" lol as if.

Often the good sellers get suckered into more cost for postage because they are so caring with the way they pack things, when you do a ton of listings you dont always take this into account, I sold this item recently and packed it very carefully, prolly more so than I should but it was a one off and yes it arrived there safely, but cost me around $4.00 more than I charged, yes my fault for not estimating better, arrived safely, customer was happy but at the end of the day there are many cases like that. In another case I gave a seller a hard time for their postage costs basing my thinking on being familiar with the size of the book I had bought, I was so wrong, the edition I bought was almost 2 x the size of the one I thought I knew, in that case their costs were very high plus they were in a country area, great people and did a great job, but its all a question of balance.

If sellers are forced (and they are to sell) to charge peanuts for their items, within reason buyers should not be put off by a handling charge and packing charge imo, its their life, their time they are spending packing carefully your item to make sure it gets to you safely, many of the blatant rip offs are not packing well, not registering which they charge for etc. and many other things which give the good sellers a bad name, that is regrettable.

I dont see why packing and materials should be left out of any fair equation, as long as its mentioned up front so the buyer can assess whether the item plus those costs are worth it to them, the genuine ones actually delivering the service they charge for should not be tarred with the same brush as those less scrupulous

[*cupie*]

Morning GR8...I disagree.....the sellers should be including the packing materials in their list cost and as for how much it costs to wrap items..come on.....when I was selling I was able to buy a 50metre roll of bubble wrap in a dispenser box no less for $25.00...that's only 50 cents per mtre....I always included that as part of my listing price with 5 cents for tape, which also costs me much much less bought from a packing company...they're everywhere...

As for cardboard boxes, well look around you...every shopping centre, every white goods store, hardware store, corner store....they all have surplus cardboard boxes they have to get rid of....I used to have an arrangement with my local stores for all sizes of boxes when I needed them and I simply broke them down and stored them flat....really easy to use the tape gun to retape them back together when needed and easy to store...

smart sellers minimise packing costs so they can maximise profit and provide cheaper costs to their customers.    Handling well that's another thing....but as much as many sellers throw that kind of reply back at buyers...woe is me have to wrap it, take it to post office, stand in line...boo hoo, they DON'T state all this in their actual listing and that's the whole point.....if they were honest about it...it might go something like this:  (in the case of the wholesale lot above for instance)

Wholesale Sterling Silver Pendants & Rings
    Current bid:   AU $6.50  
    Postage:   AU $20.00Registered

Actual Postage Cost:  $7.80 Registered
Packaging:                $5.60
Handling:                  $5.60
TOTAL                      $20.00.

See how that looks all transparent and above board?....lmao...it would soon expose sellers who think buyers are so stupid as to pay exorbitant handling and packing fees wouldn't it?  

Maybe Ebay needs to impose that kind of standard.  Your example was OS, so that's a wildcard at the best of times...but within Australia, it isn't hard to estimate exact postage...I did it for years and put it in the listing according to Each State....Aust Post publish a price guide from your 'local' PO region for this very purpose...anyway...in my point of view, it is up to the seller to try to keep their packing costs low, so they can pass that saving onto consumers...that's the way it all works...DJ's in Sydney for instance, don't let you get t the checkout, and then impose a 1.20 for a nice DJ's Bag, and 30 cents for tissue paper do they?...no....it's built into the price of the item....just saying

[*FluffyDuckee*]

 

Very well put GR8... it was great in fact.

It is as you say, comes down to what is fair and responsible and Ebay states this in their rules.

Fair and reasonable is a few dollars to cover costs and handling and is NOT massively out of proportion postage charges to recover perceived losses of not getting enough money for the product sold or to cover other fees such as Paypal fees or possible chargebacks.

A good example is an overseas seller selling an item for 99 cents and then charging $100 postage, when it actually costs them $10 for posting and packing.  In this case, the seller should list their item closer to the $100 mark, but they don't because they are trying to avoid Ebay listing fees. (AND FVF in this particular example)

Perhaps Ebay should introduce a set listing fee for all listings and this would go a long way to halting this practise (Are you listening to this Ebay?).

Ebay would still recover adequate fees via the Final Value Fee, as they already do.

Hi Cupie, didn't see you there, you were posting at the same time as me.  Yes, it certainly doesn't hurt to list how the posting and packaging charges are made up and would certainly make buyers feel more comfortable dealing with a seller.

[shyer]

Morning GR8...I disagree.....the sellers should be including the packing materials in their list cost and as for how much it costs to wrap items.....no....it's built into the price of the item....just saying

Cupie I live 30 kms from my PO I do offer free pickup, are my lost wages to drive to PO in working hours free? is my petrol, tyres and car services free? I lose money on postage even when it is twice Austrailas post receipt. In an Auction, I can not tell who will win auction , my pick up neighbour or 3000 KMs away wanting 5 cent post, because ebay primes buyers to expect free post.

Yes I can give my PO delivery man a $10 DVD I paid $5 form in a 55cent envelope and wear the 55 cents. I can not give him a registered, insured $1000 item. Too many buyers , think time is free and postage costs are stamps cost only.

[*cupie*]

It's not about buyers thinking a sellers time is free, but they don't expect to get slugged for every conceivable inconvenience of business Shyer.

For instance, as a BUSINESS, selling on ebay, you can tax deduct your packing costs, and then as all other businesses do, attempt to recoup them in the listing price with a 50 cent increase in listing cost...so instead of listing something for $5.00, you'd list if for $5.50.  

Similarly, you can tax deduct  petrol, wear and tear on the car and even write off the time spent taking  parcels to the PO as unpaid time against the business....thereby giving you the right to take wages against profit...anyway.......everything that goes around, comes around in business.....if you're trading legitimately that is....

If not then, rightly so, you have to stitch someone for the things that can't be tax deducted.....so perhaps that is why many justify their time and costs this way....

As I said above, DJ's purchase their packing materials and write it off on tax....they then try to recoup those expenses (as a separate initiative) by building some of that cost into the item mark up....When they have sales, obviously they don't worry because they'll be able to write off the packing costs already on tax (along with wages) and don't have to recoup it on sales items....see how that works?

I don't accept the usual argument that buyers expect sellers to bend over backwards....you sell on Ebay, and hence, going to the post office is bound to be one of the things you will have to do in order to sell successfully right?......so, why is that the buyers problem?...if you're not smart enough to tax deduct those costs, (or if not a registered trader), at least build them into your costs over a year of listings, then how can you blame the buyer.  

Further....I'm arguing also that these 'on costs'....are differentiated from 'Actual Postage Cost'....so buyers can see what any given seller charges for their time and packing vs any other given seller.  

You'd soon see how many buyers would avoid listings that had packing and handling costs like the example above on top of the actual postage cost.  I bet that if I look that seller up, I won't find a business registration anywhere...if they want to operate like a business, then why not be a legitimate one?

Nobody is saying that 'reasonable' handling costs cannot apply but it should be stated clearly in the listing.

[*cupie*]

I dont see why packing and materials should be left out of any fair equation, as long as its mentioned up front so the buyer can assess whether the item plus those costs are worth it to them, the genuine ones actually delivering the service they charge for should not be tarred with the same brush as those less scrupulous

GR8...I don't disagree with most of this statement, especially the bit where it is 'up front' in the listing...but....I don't think you can generalise your own high standard over to every other seller on Ebay and be quite so confident that some aren't just thick as two short planks.

The sellers in the first two examples are not unscrupulous (starting to hate that word by the way)......One is probably trying to recoup her paypal costs and giving buyers a reason to use b/deposit instead, but she's clearly going about it the wrong way and placing herself at risk of Ebay's wrath...the other is quoting the wrong 'actual cost' for a prepaid satchel...again in violation of listing policies...but it could just be a mistake.  I'm saying it's all over the joint for various reasons including lack of education in the case of newbies.

The one charging 20.00 is just plain rorting in my view....

Clearly if Ebay made it so sellers had to list the actual postage and handling/packing as separate costs as you've pointed out above, then perhaps the issues over postage might stop because buyers would be able to discern whether the item is worth the 'handling/packing costs'.  If they're too high, then the seller will be forced to adjust their thinking when buyers avoid them in droves...the Market sets the pace not the traders.....   It is however, one of the most disputed issues on Ebay....and the reason the excessive postage policy was brought in no doubt.

[*smee*]

you forgot these "           "

[*cupie*]

Meaning what?

[shyer]

It's not about buyers thinking a sellers time is free, but they don't expect to get slugged for every conceivable inconvenience of business Shyer.
I don't accept the usual argument that buyers expect sellers to bend over backwards....you sell on Ebay, and hence, going to the post office is bound to be one of the things you will have to do in order to sell successfully right?......so, why is that the buyers problem?...if you're not smart enough to tax deduct those costs, (or if not a registered trader), at least build them into your costs over a year of listings, then how can you blame the buyer.

A tax deduction only works if you are registered most ebay sellers are not registered. In fact ebay coerces me to stay under the $75,000 turnover per year and not be registered or lose profit. How??? Ebay insists GST is included in price, if my turnover is over $75,000 I have to register for GST. So trader who usually deals in second hand goods like me who turns over $74,999 has a $6820 net profit greater than the trader who turns over $75,001 and now submits $6820 to the ATO. Ebay does not pay GST nor does Pay$pal thus not claimable . A tax deduction is only that it is not TOTAL cost. For income tax purposes the ATO is only interested if my hobby profit is over about $10,000 per year. That is all my accountant has said I need to worry about.
So ebay is about avoiding registering and all taxes . Otherwise you need an extra 30% markup to cover taxes. Most of ebay works on under 20% markup in my observation. That is why DJs big W do not sell on ebay, they can not compete. Ebay is bargain basement and in the basement you pay for EVERYTHING using the toilet or the lift

[*cupie*]

So...you're not a registered business, but you think you can impose the costs of business onto buyers without disclosure or any semblance of respect for 'f/trading' standards?....Shyer I think you'll find that even though you are NOT registered, you are still obligated to abide by F/Trading or C/affairs guidelines in your own State ....under that type of legislation you would most definitely be considered a 'trader' with that kind of annual turnover (amongst other factors like frequency of listing and time spent trading on ebay etc)...trust me on that one and give them a ring OK?

So...just to save you the trouble... which State in Australia are you in and not only will I return to you the actual classification of what constitutes a 'business' and obligations of business under F/Trading in that state, but I'll then overlay  ATO's definition of what constitutes a 'business'.....Since it seems you have the two confused.....Oh, and ACCC also have one...

The way I see it, it's in your best interest to register as a business so you CAN tax deduct expenses.  the fact that you don't seem inclined to do that is no justification for imposing those costs onto buyers via exhorbitant postage.   Either build it into the listing price or state it unambiguously in the listing.....easy.

So ebay is about avoiding registering and all taxes

And obviously so are many of its sellers?...

[*cupie*]

ATO'S DEFINITION:  http://www.ato.gov.au/youth/content.asp?doc=/Content/66884.htm

Am I in business?            
How do I tell whether I am in business?

There is no simple answer to whether you are in business or not, it depends upon the facts in each case. However, you can use the following questions to help you determine whether your activity is actually a business:

    * Does your activity have a significant commercial purpose or
       character?
    * Do you have more than just an intention to engage in
       business?
    * Do you have a purpose of profit as well as a prospect of profit?
    * Is there repetition and regularity to your activity?
    * Is your activity carried on in a similar manner to other
       businesses in your industry?
    * Is your activity planned, organised and carried on in a
       business-like manner? (i.e. sending out invoices...lol)
    * Does your activity have characteristics of size, scale and
       permanency?
    * Would it be true to say your activity is really better described
       as a business, rather than a hobby, recreation or sporting
       activity?

Each time you answered ‘yes’ to the questions above, it increases the probability that you are in business though no one indicator is decisive, they must be considered in combination and as a whole.

More details on the link above....next f/trading definition of what constitutes a business...depends on the State though...

[shyer]

So...you're not a registered business, but you think you can impose the costs of business onto buyers without disclosure or any semblance of respect for 'f/trading' standards?....Shyer I think you'll find that even though you are NOT registered, you are still obligated to abide by F/Trading or C/affairs guidelines in your own State ....
And obviously so are many of its sellers?...

Cupie I run a business that has an accountant who if he gives me incorrect advice I can sue. Within the ACT I am NOT subject to fair trading as a private person selling nor am I obligated morally or legally to offer anthing more than my listing offers. Also if the listing is an auction I have legal advice, no consumer affairs law or fair trading laws apply to anyone business or private person.
The reality is law or not , I state my terms and charges if you do not accept do not bid, end of story. If it does not suit you, there is always the competition. I have no sympathy for people who want to change the listed terms and charges after winning. If you made a mistake bidding during the auction, I am happy to cancel your bid. But once the hammer falls the deal is done.
I would also answer no to all ATO questions except number 3 where the answer would be hopefully self funding in reality most years a loss

[*Brum6y*]

Just one point... unless I am mistaken:

The $75,000 threshhold relates to Goods and Services Tax.

It has no bearing on Income Tax.

Any legitimate income generating activity will have expenses "necessarily incurred" in the generation of that income.  These are your tax deductions.  (A gross simplification I know).


I find it quite bizarre to talk about claiming expenses against a reference of the GST registration threshhold.

[*cupie*]

Thank you Brumby, I thought the same thing...clearly Shyer has the two mixed up....

Shyer....Then what you are saying is that you are conducting a 'hobby' without intention of profit?.....but you're quite prepared to carry on as if the costs you incur are in fact part of conducting a business...lol.....Even so, Hobby or Business, do you comprehend at all that without buyers sellers are doomed?  See Oztion...lol...Those who go out of their way to provide customer service and low costs are the ones that win the race not those overcharging postage on the basis of their costs as a seller and then whining to a buyer about it in justification?....unbelievable.

BTW...in the ACT it's not unlike NSW..

Unless you are trading under your own name specifically, you must register a business name....(more than likely it's the same as NSW, in that if you trade online only you're exempted from registering)  Haven't gotten that far into ACT F/Trading site yet...., but you are definitely NOT exempted from Fair Trading legislation as a 'trader'...because basically, that's what you are doing isn't it?  Trading goods for money?

Under this publication: http://www.ors.act.gov.au/fairtrading/pdfs/Business/Guides/TraderGuide-Screen.pdf  The definition is fairly simple

A trader is someone who purchases and maintains an inventory of goods to be sold.  Really broad isn't it...lol..one size fits all...but it's the frequency of that selling they are looking at...so one off purchases and sales are not applicable...but those trading on a regular basis would be instantly classified as a 'trader'...

And you can't just blame the accountant....ignorance is no excuse under the law.......The Australian taxation system is based on self-assessment. You are expected to know and comply with all of your taxation obligations. What this means is that you are responsible for determining if the income you are earning through an activity is a hobby or a business.  If you don't comply and ATO catch you out...then look out...lol  As I said, ignorance is no excuse and the Accountant might be implicated but guess who's ultimately responsible?

From what I can find out so far, you can only earn a certain amount before a hobby is considered a business anyway..something like $7000 pa...but I'm not sure on that figure yet...still checking.

[shyer]

I find it quite bizarre to talk about claiming expenses against a reference of the GST registration threshhold.

Claiming expences only applies for a business. For a collector for example, selling part of their collection it does not apply. The point I am trying to make is that there is an income tax threshold that is quite low some $7000 to $12000 I have been advised, only levied on regular profits. While the GST threshold appears quite high and takes no notice of profit or loss.

The combination of the two and the small margin most sellers on ebay have means, large turnover or high profit sellers. Are at a Huge disadvantage to the hobby seller, even with volume purchase discounts, ebay fee reductions or lower P$P fees. Claiming expences for them are still small change.

 Postal costs and other costs are not FREE buyers have to pay or sellers sell elsewhere.

 Ebay is trying to attract the sellers who can not afford to sell on ebay in Australia.

A 3 stooges plan if I ever saw one.

[*cupie*]

I agree, but not with this...

The combination of the two and the small margin most sellers on ebay have means, large turnover or high profit sellers

There is no combination...one is income tax and the other is business turnover....too different animals....all hobby sellers have to do is stick to the income tax thresh hold and they are a hobby, but once you go over that amount it's in your interest to register and deduct.

I own my own business, but it was never online selling...that was a hobby...and I AM a collector, both as a buyer and a seller.  Since Ebay brought in Preypal, I no longer sell....pretty soon, I won't be buying much either if things get much worse.....more and more sellers these days are paypal only?...like for real?  who cares how you get paid ?...so why not offer it at least?

[gr8-expectations]

gee cupes we could retire to the south of france with all those 50 cents lol

[gr8-expectations]

i just think people can be too tight a###ed these days and yet think nothing of paying big $ for things in a retail environment where mostly they get slugged for everything and happily pay up, i think its a penny pinching mentality not to be aware of what it takes to satisfy a customer in terms of after sale service, time is the most expensive thing for a seller and to do something properly takes just that ... time not just thrown in an envelope, same with listing defects so the customer knows what they are up for before deciding and is not presented with all these surprises

the air is palpable now form sellers, they dont list the same way not as many photos many of them, not as detailed description because (mostly and this IS a generalization because some sellers still do it the old way) its not worth it anymore, not enough bidders, not enough profit, too many fees from feepay and preypal.... and have other costs in the rw gone down?

I dont think so...

[gr8-expectations]

AND aussie post has risen dramatically in terms of their costs, sometimes i am completely blwon away by what it costs to post to the us etc. and quite often now it is on a slower service than before. Many times too local australian parcels get tied up in backwaters and take ages to get there but the costs have not reduced

[motas]

Great debate all.....bit off topic but it somehow relates I think?...Installed a gas heater many moons ago and the rental on the gas Bottle was ..lets say 20 bucks...6 months later the rental was 35 bucks...12 months later ..45 bucks.

So i rings Mobil and says eh mate!.. what are you selling/profiting from, Gas or Bottle rentals, he replies the cost of the bottles is forever increasing because we have to pay to have them inspected?.blah,blah,blah..so I says ...BS wages haven,t gone up nor the price of fuel re: delivery so, i asks again.

what is your principle product?

The reply was..mate we sell gas thats the price..take it or leave it...I left it!

The point being that without the bottle they could,nt sell gas and as gas was their principle product they should price accordingly to the price of the lpg? and prosper.If the rental was,nt so high people could afford to purchase more gas etc, etc,round and round.

The pricing on bottle rentals is a company discretionary thing (much the same as postage) and in this instance proved to be a negative for this company.

Sellers have to be able to justify their costs in a rational and fair manner...to sell say a dvd at $0.99c is the luck of the lot but to then charge 15 bucks postage, locally is down right dishonest.(but I bought for .99c) nah con job!.

Some would say ..if its advertised at that, that is the price...or just don,t bid but, that does,nt make it right imo.

No fair post no no business ..it cuts both ways imho...

JC

Hi *Cupie*

[*Brum6y*]

Claiming expences only applies for a business.

That is wrong.

Expenses can be claimed against ANY income, as long as - according to the rules - those expenses are "necessarily incurred" in the generation of assessable income.  (I think that's how the ATO express it.)

A person working in an industry where it is required for them to wear particular clothing and for which they are responsible for laundering, can claim the cost of doing so (an expense) against their income.


Again, I see no reason why we are even talking about GST, threshholds or registration.

GST registration is mandatory for turnover in excess of $75,000 - but, below this, it is optional.  It has nothing to do (by definition) with whether you are "running a business" or not - thought the correlation is obvious - but rather it is dealing with a section of the taxation system that has been taken out of the realm of wholesalers and spread it across everybody.  The threshhold of $75,000 simply means that those operating at the bottom end of the spectrum don't have to deal with all the fuss and bother - unless they choose to.  After all - the maximum GST they could be dealing with is $7,500 (10%) from sales - but considering it is normal for purchases to be part of this equation, the GST paid on those comes off this figure.  As a result, the amount involved is likely to average out across the country to a level where it would cost more to administer than it would generate revenue.  Simple pragmatism.

It is also a political safety margin.


Either above or below the threshhold, registered or not - GST is irrelevant in the discussion of business definitions and expenses.

[*cupie*]

What Brumby said...lol...

Howdi Jed...I see ya made it out of the coin forum....I don't actually pay a yearly rental on my lpg gas bottles...paid it once and it just stays as a bond...I think our Gas company builds the other costs into the bottle price, which of course, has risen significantly over the years....Our village is all on bottled gas....the village across the other side of the bay has town gas....much cheaper...go figure...

[motas]

Must be a Tassy thing but we had 3 rises in 12 months anyway, forget the gas, Ya can,t sell without the post and we all know the price of postage...make big bucks in the short term or make honest..(more) bucks in the longer term.

Ya can fool some of the people ,some of the time.

or is that too simple to understand..No not you, oh honest trader!

jc

[*Brum6y*]

The cook just griped about electricity.  They don't like it - gas is the way for them...

My seller friend has a very customer friendly attitude when it comes to postage ... they combine any and all purchases from eBay, OZtion or Direct and charge $1.50 for packaging and handling for each package - whether it has 2 or 10 items in it. Postage is charged strictly at cost - and if they quoted for one rate and the package comes in at a lower rate, they refund the difference!  If it goes over, they wear it.

Their argument is so simple ... let the customer use their money to buy product.  It gives them a better feeling of value and underlines the seller's honesty, encouraging repeat business.  It also moves stock, allows better purchasing (greater frequency = quicker turnaround, better prices, greater spread of shipping costs) and thus allows for increased variety.

Not to mention the value of word-of-mouth recommendations!

[motas]

Brumby.....that is oh so sweet,. . I hope I do business with your friend.

If it were just this simple... (and it is).. via appropriate policy,e.g. ebay/paypal.

jc

seller after me own heart,god bless,um.Lol

ps: edit ...show me thy electrickery, Shine Tiny Sun...Shine!