Author Topic: Secrets of Success on eBay  (Read 89502 times)

*smee*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #200 on: November 14, 2009, 07:12:26 PM »
Hi smee,
your link worked once I signed out of ebay and I then got 19 items . My comments still stand, and the tamebay article devoted one full point to sales to search ratio and two other metrics only worked fully with sales to search ratio result maximised. That to me is, key to city of London and I always liked Adelaide .

Back to topic I did not use "DVD" in my search if I want a Toyota corolla, I do not include the words car, automobile, metal polluting coffin or horseless carridge. OK my error but if I sort by movies is that not DVD , yes in the real world , no according to don deceitfull.

Shyer I am not saying Ebay have got it right , what I am saying is that I have worked out how people search , as a seller you must think how would most buyers search the item I am selling , if you do that and include those keywords in your title you will find that your items appear in a more prominent position in their search .... Do you get this ????

shyer

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #201 on: November 14, 2009, 07:29:23 PM »
Of course its the same Countess we are using the same search engine with the same perameters (spell check) the results must be the same !!!!

No smee,

Firstly ebay admits a ramdom factor, in basic computer programing you can call a random number. Just like picking from a card deck . you can then add /multiply /take to the power of/ differentiate the equation that random number is used in. Is used for all sorts of trouble shootings or what if's.

Secondly the more people serach specific words the more the search is locked to the sales/ search ratio that suits those words. Look at your example first in list is title

"Hotel For Dogs -DVD R4 "

No - sign or R4 in search second to six last in list all had "hotel for dogs DVD" as most of title. Sales matter not words.


*FluffyDuckee*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #202 on: November 14, 2009, 07:35:02 PM »
OK, I logged into ebay as me in a new browser and placed Smee's link in the adress bar

I got a return of 19 items (sorry Shyer, but I was able to list inside ebay and whilst I was logged on)  BTW I also tested this whilst NOT being logged on prior in a different browser and got the same results as well.

I then opened another browser and logged into my account again.  I put the keywords as Smee requested the Countess do a search on:

'hotel for dogs dvd'

I placed the two screens side and by side and checked each return.  All 19 of them were exactly the same and in the same order, including the one referred to earlier at no. 17.

I then did a search on 'dvd hotel for dogs' so I changed the same key words around a bit but they were the same key words

The results this time were similiar, however I did notice a difference.  A listing previously at no. 12, suddenly shot up to no. 4.  This had had no sales and 5 copies were listed.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Hotel-For-Dogs-Blu-Ray-BLR_W0QQitemZ280410659945QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Movies_Movies_TV_Shows?hash=item4149c71c69

Interesting thing about this is that the first word I used in the search was DVD and this title does not have the word DVD in it?  

The reason?  I believe it was the category.  It is my opinion that Ebay have attributed more weight to categories when people do searches, then key words.  It should be noted that the sale state did not change when this same DVD shot from 12 to 4th position.  Only the words searched for.  

To further test this theory, I then did another search:

dvd dogs for hotel

Note I have left the more highly weighted category word, dvd as number one word, but rearranged the other words.

The results were exactly the same as the previous search on dvd hotel for dogs.

So this does prove that key words alone can cause a listing to progress up the results page and if two people search on the same keywords, the return will be the same.






:duckling:

*wheels*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #203 on: November 14, 2009, 07:51:29 PM »
Fluffy, I remember reading a thread on the US boards about Best Match working left to right. I'll see if I can find it.

*wheels*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #204 on: November 14, 2009, 08:09:31 PM »
Sorry, can't find it, maybe I didn't read it, maybe it was just the voices in my head  ;D

*smee*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #205 on: November 14, 2009, 08:18:17 PM »
Shyer, I have emailed Chris Dawson (the author of the 3 part best match tutorial)
I will try and entice Chris to come to our forum as a guest ( he is in the uk ) for a discussion on this matter , As you can see from his 3 part tute he has done extensive research into how this works and as a professional ebay seller I would expect him to do his homework as he is looking for a competative edge (although he has shared his research to help others ) .... If he agrees to come here as a visitor (I will clear it with Admin here first)  I would like to set up a dedicated thread where he can have a Q & A  session in an orderly fashion .... Would you or anyone for that matter be interested in listening to what he has to say . and heed his answers to direct questions  ??????

shyer

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #206 on: November 14, 2009, 08:20:27 PM »
Good idea smee

*smee*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #207 on: November 14, 2009, 08:24:44 PM »
ok ... so we are happy to treat the mans answers with some respect if I get him here ?

*FluffyDuckee*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #208 on: November 14, 2009, 08:24:58 PM »
Wheelie   ;D

All I have really proved below is that listings can progress up a search result on the basis of key words searched on and then changing those words around.

An interesting aside I have discovered is the return of a listing where the first word in the search is the word DVD and this is not in the title of the listing that has been still given preferencial treatment and thus progressed up the search display.  On the basis of this I put forward a theory that perhaps this was due to the category of a listing holding more weight than the key words.  This part was theory only and cannot be conclusively stated without out more testing.  So it is possible that what you are remembering is correct and it is also possible that my theory re categories is correct, but we cannot definitively say until this is tested with multiple examples.

What has been tested and proven is that key words searched on DO effect the position a listing is displayed in, but are consistant across multiple people if they search for the same thing with the same words.  Of course there are other influences, such as postage cost etc that will also effect the positioning, but once again this result will be consistant across people who input the same parameters.
:duckling:

tellomon

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #209 on: November 14, 2009, 08:28:39 PM »
ok ... so we are happy to treat the mans answers with some respect if I get him here ?

Define "respect".  :marvin: :tello:
"The B@zturd Love Child of Comix & a News Organization"

*smee*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #210 on: November 14, 2009, 08:31:03 PM »
ok ... so we are happy to treat the mans answers with some respect if I get him here ?

Define "respect".  :marvin: :tello:

Sorry Tel I cant answer that .... I've got none , I will buy some on ebay prior to the meeting date .... have you got any you wish to sell at mates rates ?

tellomon

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #211 on: November 14, 2009, 08:32:59 PM »
Nope.

Surplus Drum gear only...
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*smee*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #212 on: November 14, 2009, 08:34:39 PM »
ok will keep searchin'

tellomon

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #213 on: November 14, 2009, 08:46:23 PM »
Here's my success secret for BUYING on eBay:

I personally know my steady sellers.

I ask for and get the "Tello Deals", OFF-SITE!!!

PayPal is still used, but WTF?

F'em!
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*smee*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #214 on: November 14, 2009, 08:56:09 PM »
Here's my success secret for BUYING on eBay:

I personally know my steady sellers.

I ask for and get the "Tello Deals", OFF-SITE!!!

PayPal is still used, but WTF?

F'em!


Tel thats not a secret ..... thats smart business !!!

tellomon

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #215 on: November 14, 2009, 09:03:45 PM »
Off-eBay transactions eBay no like.

Rules. Rules?

Homey don't play them all the time.
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Philip.Cohen

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #216 on: November 14, 2009, 09:51:20 PM »
Smee is correct to a point. To get found at all in any search a seller has to use a spread of appropriate key words, in at least the item title, that a buyer is most likely to use in their search. Variations in found key words obviously will have an effect as some sort of algorithm has to be applied to decide positions in the search results list for items that may range from an exact match to a partial match. The fact is eBay’s search algorithm can only work with the string that the buyer inputs; it can’t otherwise “know” what the buyer wants.

But, I suspect that that basic search function has got nothing to do with “Worst Match” and won’t ensure you a spot at the top of the first page of the “Worst Match” search result; I suspect that there is nothing random about “Worst Match”; only if you are a seller who is selling and thereby providing revenue for eBay will you be successful in making your way up the “Worst Match” search list; I have no doubt that eBay measures the “value” of a seller’s items by the number of items sold and the resulting amount of fees the seller pays; the more fees you pay to eBay the better is your chance of climbing up the “Worst Match” search list, assuming your key words enable you to be “found” in the first place.

What other purpose can “Worst Match” have? And, if eBay thought that “Worst Match” would not be of a greater benefit to eBay than all the other parameter searches, why do you think that they would make it the default search rather than simply another option? “Worst Match” is simply another devious eBay mechanism that attempts to indirectly advantage eBay by advantaging those sellers who contribute most to eBay’s revenue. It’s got nothing to do with benefitting all buyers or sellers generally; eBay has no understanding of such a concept. “Worst Match” would appear to be simply another desperate attempt to stop the hemorrhaging of revenue and the ongoing slide into the abyss. It’s obviously doomed to fail on both counts.
“Today we’re dealing with phase two or phase three [he can’t even remember which one] of disruptive innovation. We’ve had the disruption, now we must disrupt our own disruption.”—John Donahoe (2007).

*smee*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #217 on: November 14, 2009, 10:15:03 PM »
Phil .... I think I agree ... but cant really make sense of all you are trying to say too many ""   "" etc for my liking .... but .... I think I agree ... the best match and once again like ebays terminology of best offer its not the correct wording nor by the way is "worst match"   but however thats how it is at the moment so when I am selling something I do my utmost to make sure my listing is in a prominent place in the list to my liking .... same as when I buy stuff I refine my search accordingly ... ie I immediatley weed out out listings from undesireable locations .... I am not allowed to say China here so I will not say CHINA I also narrow my search by a number of other perameters but only coz I know how .... as a seller I know the average buyer doesnt know how to trim their search or doesnt care to so when I list I use key words to the max but never cross the line to key word spamming to maximize my exposure .... that is good business

tellomon

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #218 on: November 14, 2009, 10:32:14 PM »
....but never cross the line to key word spamming to maximize my exposure .... that is good business.

Playing by The Rules.

Good boy!
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*wheels*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #219 on: November 14, 2009, 11:08:17 PM »
Smee,

I just did a search for Simply Yoga (a book and dvd set) in All Categories and Best Match puts item #330375641450 Simply Pilates in pole position! This is ahead of the actual Simply Yoga books. It is an auction listing and is the item on the page ending soonest.

Why does it even appear as a result? Is it because the category adds Yoga as a keyword to the listing?

Listed in category:   
    * Movies >
    * Movies, TV Shows >
    * DVDs >
    * Exercise, Fitness >
    * Yoga, Pilates

The only place that the word Yoga is mentioned in the listing is the Item Specifics section
Genre:  Exercise & Fitness
       Yoga

*smee*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #220 on: November 14, 2009, 11:12:41 PM »
coz pilates and yoga equate to the same thing in ebay lingo

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #221 on: November 15, 2009, 12:06:23 AM »
okay .... was liasing with Chris when @#$#$@# pc started palying up .... have half the convo saved on email but despite last transaction shows as me having responded I cant locate the response message anywhere on outlook .... not in sent ... not in drafts just @#$#@#$ gone so I hope it went to him ... will await reply and report back here ... hope its not lost in cyberspace !!

tellomon

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #222 on: November 15, 2009, 12:12:21 AM »
It may have been re-routed to Elvis.
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*smee*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #223 on: November 15, 2009, 12:15:42 AM »
yes or MJ ... but I will know when reply comes ..... E.P'S replies are covered in mayo and ketchup from burgers and M.J's replies ..... well lets not go there please  .....

tellomon

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #224 on: November 15, 2009, 12:48:05 AM »
"The B@zturd Love Child of Comix & a News Organization"

*smee*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #225 on: November 15, 2009, 12:50:38 AM »


OOOOoooooo  I see .... if that happened to me , I would have been verbally sodomised by sections of the peanut gallery !

tellomon

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #226 on: November 15, 2009, 12:57:14 AM »
*wink-wink*
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shyer

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #227 on: November 15, 2009, 10:49:28 AM »
okay .... was liasing with Chris when @#$#$@# pc started palying up
Well done smee

*smee*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #228 on: November 15, 2009, 01:26:39 PM »
For anyone who maybe interested

Chris Dawson ... The fellow who did the 3 part tutorial on tamebay linked on this thread has agreed to come to our forum as a guest one night/evening this coming  week (he is in England so it will be morning his time ) I will arrange an exact day and time with Chris and advise details over the next few days  . To keep it orderley , how I would invisage it working is we start a dedicated live Q&A thread on this topic on the arranged night , Chris has already done extensive research on this matter so should be able to give educated on the spot answers although I guess it is possible someone may throw him a curve ball that he may need a little time to research the correct answer I am not sure . Bear in mind all his research on best match has been done based on Ebay UK but I would imagine that any differences in the way it works compared to Ebay au would be subtle ... again I am not sure on this point he may well know . Also if any one is interested Chris will be writing a piece on shill bidding this Monday on Tamebay (Gawd help us I can sense some one in Brighton sands getting an errection as we speak )  
To get a feel for the man (so to speak) here are some links to Chris's profile from tamebay and Royal mail
http://tamebay.com/author/mountie

http://www.royalmail.com/portal/rm/jump1?catId=68500710&mediaId=101500767

I will keep you informed on date/time etc .... If anyone has any suggestions or input regarding this please feel free to message me today or asap before I make final arrangements regarding time and format with Chris ... Thanks

*Brum6y*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #229 on: November 15, 2009, 02:16:24 PM »
I am only theorising, but it does seem logical to include the category name(s) as part of the item's searchable keywords.

A user may be ignorant of the category structure, impatient at the time taken to step through it or just lazy ... and will put in "fifth element dvd" to search on that movie on the desired medium.

Stepping back from the micro-analytical focus, it is quite obvious from such a search query what the buyer is looking for and I have little doubt that search engine analytics clearly show including the category alongside the sellers item title is necessary.

After all, if you were a buyer and found "Fifth Element - Factory sealed - R4" in the DVD category (local, better price or whatever) through an alternate path after having committed to purchase from another source, wouldn't you be peeved?

So, although there are some aspects of "best match" with which I take issue, I believe category inclusion in the search process is not only normal, but essential to provide reasonable results from any search engine.

*CountessA*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #230 on: November 15, 2009, 02:18:21 PM »
Smee, thank you; as much as I loathe the duplicated word pro-active (after all, it really means nothing more than "active", if we're honest and strip away the corp-speak bark from it), it is tempting to use that word to describe what you've been doing.

*thinks about it*

No, let's stick with "active" and "lateral-thinking" and "Smeeish".

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #231 on: November 16, 2009, 02:04:13 AM »
Smee,

I just did a search for Simply Yoga (a book and dvd set) in All Categories and Best Match puts item #330375641450 Simply Pilates in pole position! This is ahead of the actual Simply Yoga books. It is an auction listing and is the item on the page ending soonest.

Why does it even appear as a result? Is it because the category adds Yoga as a keyword to the listing?

Listed in category:   
    * Movies >
    * Movies, TV Shows >
    * DVDs >
    * Exercise, Fitness >
    * Yoga, Pilates

The only place that the word Yoga is mentioned in the listing is the Item Specifics section
Genre:  Exercise & Fitness
       Yoga


Wheels , sorry I didnt elaborate yesterday but in the category shown below , pilates and yoga are the same so when you put either in the keyword search it will bring up both .
coz pilates and yoga equate to the same thing in ebay lingo

Listed in category: Movies > Movies, TV Shows > DVDs > Exercise, Fitness > Yoga, Pilates


Philip.Cohen

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #232 on: November 19, 2009, 05:12:38 PM »
As a matter of interest, of BeckerTimes’s 30 “Best Offer” sales between 13 and 25 October, 11 have now received feedback; 18 of them are still outstanding.

Since I started watching BeckerTime, on 13 July there have been 166 auctions. On these auctions, without winning a single auction (unless otherwise noted), the numbers of individuals who have made bids on multiple auctions are as follows:

2 auctions: 168; 3 auctions: 57; 4 auctions: 37; 5 auctions: 20; 6 auctions: 6; 7 auctions: 6; 8 auctions: 1; 9 auctions: 1; 11 auctions: 1; 12 auctions: 3; 13 auctions: 4; 14 auctions: 1; 18 auctions: 1 (won 2 auctions); 28 auctions: 1; 58 auctions: 1; 63 auctions: 1 (won 3 auctions very recently).

One of these very regular bidders, “ss(3637-3706),” between 13 July and 18 November has bid on 63 of BeckerTime’s auctions and only recently has won three auctions, the earliest on 28 October; but has not yet left any feedback.

Another regular bidder “hr(131)” has, between 14 October and 18 November, bid on 58 auctions (I think on every 99c-start auction, actually), but has not yet won a single auction, nor has his feedback count incremented!

Another regular bidder “iy(34-35)” has, between 29 July and 16 November, bid on 28 auctions, but has not yet won a single auction (not even accidentally); in that time his feedback count has incremented 1 unit!

Another regular bidder “lr(51-53)” has, between 9 October and 13 November, bid on 18 auctions, and has won two auctions; his feedback count has incremented (guess what) just two units! (Well, I suppose he could be a Rolex watch collector.)

Do I really need to go on?

Chris Dawson apparently is of the opinion that there is no “proof” here that BeckerTime, or any of the other sellers in the spreadsheet with similar bidding patterns, are outrageous, habitual shill bidders …
“Today we’re dealing with phase two or phase three [he can’t even remember which one] of disruptive innovation. We’ve had the disruption, now we must disrupt our own disruption.”—John Donahoe (2007).

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #233 on: November 19, 2009, 09:42:45 PM »
Do I really need to go on?

Well, actually you could Philip. You could show what % of those ID's bid history (between July & November) were on Beckertimes auctions. Not just the stats that favour your theory.

Philip.Cohen

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #234 on: November 20, 2009, 10:23:10 AM »
Hi Bazza,

I have made provision on the spreadsheet for those additional stats from the Bid History Details page but unfortunately it’s simply to much work to do manually. Now if some competent programmer would write a program that would collect all the relevant data then every buyer could really have some fun exposing the probable shills, or at least be warned that shills are probably about.

Bear in mind that the “% with” stat can be easily manipulated by the smart shill by placing nominal non-winning bids on other sellers’ auctions (you know, probably some of those many funny little bids that we see on many auctions).

The 30-Day Summary stats for the four very regular bidders are:

hr(131):
Total bids: 406; Items bid on: 366; Bid activity (%) with this seller: 16%  (I notice that his feedback count has just incremented to 132; in other words out of 366 items bid on in the last 30 days he has finally bought one, and not one of Mr Becker’s, apparently; an accident elsewhere possibly?)

iy(34-35):
Total bids: 26; Items bid on: 20; Bid activity (%) with this seller: 88%
 
lr(51-53):
Total bids: 75; Items bid on: 58; Bid activity (%) with this seller: 22% 

ss(3637-3706):
Total bids: 415; Items bid on: 394; Bid activity (%) with this seller: 12%

All of which simply goes to show that the information supplied by eBay on the Bid History Details page, supposedly to enable buyers to protect themselves from shill bidding sellers, will only suggest the possibility of naïve shill bidding; it will not expose the smarter “professional” shill bidder that will only be exposed by a multiple-auction analysis.

Unfortunately, it’s not possible to manually analyse all the facts that may better expose possible shill bidding and clearly eBay have no intention of doing anything truly effective that might have an adverse effect on their revenue; better to simply obscure the matter (as they have done) and claim that, anyway, shill bidding is only a very minor problem …

The ugly fact is, if you bid on an auction for anything of value and that auction starts at a “baiting” low value, then on the balance of probability you are going to be competing against a shill bidder, and if the sellers is really smart you will be competing against more than one bidder (it’s so much easier to make it look like genuine bidding if two or more shills are used: the nibbler is not nibbling at your proxy maximum, he’s simply competing with another known shill).

The relevant “facts”: are in the spreadsheet; for those buyers that are interested, an evening’s thought-provoking entertainment awaits them.
“Today we’re dealing with phase two or phase three [he can’t even remember which one] of disruptive innovation. We’ve had the disruption, now we must disrupt our own disruption.”—John Donahoe (2007).

*Brum6y*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #235 on: November 20, 2009, 11:28:58 PM »
Quote
The ugly fact is, if you bid on an auction for anything of value and that auction starts at a “baiting” low value, "then on the balance of probability you are going to be competing against a shill bidder

"on the balance of probability" ???

What evidence do you have for such an assertion?

I only ask as it is not self-evident nor obvious, yet it is the singular condition for the statement that follows.

As for the ' "baiting" low value' - I don't think it unusual for 99 cent starts on items a seller knows will sell for more.  It gets buyers to place a low bid in the hope that they will be lucky.  Once they've gotten their feet wet on that item, they are more inclined to stay with it - even if it passes (say) $10, rather than leave it and start bidding on another one of the same thing that started at $9.95.

I'm not saying that shill bidding can't look like that - it can - but on the balance of probability which is more likely - shilling, or a successful marketing ploy by a seller to attract bidders to their items...?

Philip.Cohen

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #236 on: November 21, 2009, 08:49:29 AM »
Hi Brumby,

Everyone keeps asking for “evidence”; I can only keep referring to the facts contained in the spreadsheet. You have to draw your own conclusions therefrom. Nothing is “self-evident or obvious”; even if a seller and a bidder share the same IP address that does not necessarily mean that the bidder is a shill; ultimately, more definitive “evidence” can only be supplied by a more sophisticated analysis of all aspects of the patterns of bidding; such a sophisticated analysis could produce a “scale” of the likelihood that a bidder was a shill; obviously, eBay has no intention of ever implementing such an analysis …

I can only say to you that, for me, the basis for my assertion are those facts of the patterns of bidding on such auctions that are demonstrated in the spreadsheet. From those facts, I conclude, logically I think, that the great majority of professional sellers of items of any real value who start an auction at $1 will have a mechanism for obtaining the price that they want (or the auction will be cancelled). That mechanism will be one or more common (shill) bidders bidding on the auction. If, from those same patterns of bidding displayed in the spreadsheet, you conclude otherwise, so be it.

I think your suggestion that buyers place a low bid “hoping to be lucky” is not realistic; I suspect most people have got better things to do with their time; and even if what you say was the case, why would they then bid higher? More likely all those funny little single-digit bids on items of some obvious value are shills making “no-win”” bids for the purpose of diluting their own-auction “% bids with” statistic. Bear in mind that if every pro seller has 10-20 shill IDs, he has to work hard making “non-win” bids on other sellers’ auctions so that his shill IDs don’t appear to obvious in the Bid History Details stats.

Chris Dawson suggested to me that eBay would catch shill bidders because they compare IP addresses. Chris is obviously not a shill-bidding seller; no smart “professional” shill-bidding seller would ever be silly enough to make his shill bids from his “paid” IP account. That’s what free email accounts such as Hotmail, etc, are for …
“Today we’re dealing with phase two or phase three [he can’t even remember which one] of disruptive innovation. We’ve had the disruption, now we must disrupt our own disruption.”—John Donahoe (2007).

*CountessA*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #237 on: November 21, 2009, 09:35:34 AM »
Philip, you may be confusing email addresses with IP addresses.

They are different things.
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

Bazza

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #238 on: November 21, 2009, 11:17:13 AM »
Therein lies the problem people have with Philips theories Countessa. For someone who pushes the 'shill-bidders must be named & shamed' barrow, his understanding of ebay processes are limited to those which suit the cause.

I honestly don't know why you, as the site administrator allow Philips accusations and naming ebay traders as shill-bidders, the opportunity to run the risk of legal action against you. I'm damn sure if I was one of the named traders, I'd be contacting a solicitor.

cueperkins

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #239 on: November 21, 2009, 12:03:23 PM »
I honestly don't know why you, as the site administrator allow Philips accusations and naming ebay traders as shill-bidders, the opportunity to run the risk of legal action against you. I'm damn sure if I was one of the named traders, I'd be contacting a solicitor.

Isn't it grand that we live in a democracy, where people have a right to their own opinion....which is what this is...Philips opinion.  You have the option to agree, disagree, or refrain from comment. No offense Bazza (dejavu..lol)...but this type of statement is OTT...if you have such concerns try a PM to admin...

As it is, you may not have noticed, but nobody is promoting this theory...in fact, many are disputing it, and some remain undecided.....in a democracy, that's how theories are proven or disproven.  Clearly you don't know much about the law.....Philips theory also appears on another well know chat site.....do you feel like making the same outrageous statements to the administrator of that site?.

And of course, let's not forget that his theories were also published in print, and aired on TV.....Oh my Gord....so much potential for expensive legal action, so little time.......should they all receive an email advising them of their audacity in allowing Philips 'theories' to be aired on National TV and print media ????

If you're so adamant.... you better get writing then.....oh and don't forget to warn them about their legal risk...I'm sure they'd be thrilled to be availed of free unqualified legal advice......after all, what would they know....lol

Just saying... ;D

Bazza

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #240 on: November 21, 2009, 12:15:04 PM »
Yep, I'll wait for someone with authority on this site to respond....thanks all the same.


cueperkins

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #241 on: November 21, 2009, 12:24:11 PM »
Whatever !!!....the obvious seems to escape you even with examples....but your intent in such an outrageously unqualified statement seems pretty clear to me...knock yourself out.

Bazza

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #242 on: November 21, 2009, 12:57:46 PM »
So which part of my post do you find outragous Cupie?

I don't remember Philip naming and shaming on TV as he does here??? Airing his theory, yes (which incidently, I support his right to do). But not accusing ebay traders by name??? Correct me if I'm wrong.

You seem to know a little about the law. What is defamation?


*Brum6y*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #243 on: November 21, 2009, 01:11:26 PM »
Well, I have no authority on this site - but I can offer my opinion based on my own observations.

Firstly, I have no qualms with Philip presenting his theories and acknowledge he has put a lot of time and effort into it.  Having worked so intimately with it, he most certainly will have seen more subtle indications in the data he has put together than most others and may present conclusions that escape our cursory understanding.

Secondly, the specific naming of parties is something of which I'm sure admin here are very aware - but you're not going to see that advertised.  IF there is an issue with legal risk or complaint from the named party, have no doubt appropriate and swift action will be taken.  Further, don't expect any explanations - privacy laws will preclude that.


As for the named parties, whether they consider this to be a matter for complaint can be driven by a number of factors. 
- The first of these is the nature of the accusation - shill bidding - and the concern by the seller may not be sufficient to warrant a response.
- Then there is the credibility of the source.  If that is considered weak or groundless, then the real risk of the accusations fade significantly. In these cases it is often better to ignore them, as addressing them, especially in legal action, immediately gives some legitimacy to those accusations.  This could result in more mud being thrown up and, even if completely exonerated, 'mud sticks'.
- It may also be that the accusations made do not match the prices attained.  It's all well and good to shout "Shill! Shill!", but if buyers still see a good price at the end of it all, then they are not as likely to be put off - so support for the accusations will not be forthcoming from "affected" buyers.  (This is one point about which I can see Phil getting animated - where buyers ARE getting shilled, but are still happy with the price they paid.)
- We can then look at the impact to the sellers trading.  If it hasn't suffered, they may not be bothered.  There is also the possibility that they have picked up some free advertising and, as a result, there are more people attracted to this seller that have been put off.  Alternatively, have the places where Phil has declared his theories been in the vision of his customer base?  If not, this could be another argument for letting things be.  To take action would raise this dark cloud to new heights and put the spotlight on it.

Also, since Phil has spread his voice across a fairly wide arena, if the affected parties WERE to take action - they may just target him, rather than all the places he's published on.  Phil would then have to go around and clean up - IF there were any judgement along those lines.


I welcome the opportunity for the Phil's of this world to make a noise, be civil and debate their ideas.

I don't doubt there are some curiosities that bear investigation and Phil has certainly found one.  He hasn't convinced me (yet) of the severity of the problem and I may play devil's advocate - but I would not want to shut him down.  He may be right.

*Brum6y*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #244 on: November 21, 2009, 01:15:42 PM »

What is defamation?


Step 1. In the legal sense - Whatever the accused party deems worthy of a response.

Step 2. Whatever the legal processes result in (after step 1 has been invoked)


As I said, the seller may be reaping the benefit of some free advertising.

I don't know, but it's not for us to decide "defamation".

They may be miffed, but if they do nothing, is it a legal problem for others...?

*CountessA*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #245 on: November 21, 2009, 01:22:28 PM »
The administrators' job is to step in where real risk arises - and we do. I do caution people to think carefully before "naming", and there are specific guidelines about that, but merely saying that one thinks Person A is shill-bidding is still allowable in Australia, according to Australian legislation (Wrongs Act 1958 (VIC), Defamation Act 1974 (NSW), etc.).

Bazza, your concern is appreciated. You might like to PM me if you feel any further concerns: we do our best to act according to Australian legislation and will never ignore any valid messages communicated as appropriate via the report system here.
"No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is ...a part of the maine; ...any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde"

tellomon

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #246 on: November 21, 2009, 01:22:59 PM »
"He May Be Right"
Starring Philip Cohen
as "The Inspector"


Coming soon on DVD

C):-{= <" i'll buy the box set! "<<
"The B@zturd Love Child of Comix & a News Organization"

*smee*

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #247 on: November 21, 2009, 01:25:01 PM »
is it a comedy ???

tellomon

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #248 on: November 21, 2009, 01:27:50 PM »
I do caution people to think carefully before "naming"...

C):-{= <" have you seen the abuse tello is getting here lately? "<<


is it a comedy ???

A Comedy/Horror Documentary with interactive menu and pop-up inserts.
"The B@zturd Love Child of Comix & a News Organization"

Bazza

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Re: Secrets of Success on eBay
« Reply #249 on: November 21, 2009, 01:30:39 PM »
Thankyou for your response Countessa.

LOL @ Tello.