I'd like to do some selling but I'm scared of Paypal's 'discretion'

[frangi]

Hi, thought I should open a new thread for my second query, which is about Paypal

I'd like to sell some items. They're taking up valuable space. 

Most (but not all) are pick-up sized items.  We've sold via pick-up before without problems.
However, the last time we sold anything, we were able to stipulate that payment should be
via Direct Deposit or Cash on collection.  If we sell now though, we'd be required to accept
Paypal if that's how the buyer wished to pay.

I've read about buyers lodging false charge-back claims with Paypal after they've picked up the item.
We're not prepared to be scammed that way, which is why we haven't listed items for sale.

Advice on Ebay advises we should make a note of the buyer's licence plate number and even run off
a copy of the buyer's actual licence or other recent document containing the buyer's address, plus
their 'phone number/s, etc.  Ebay advice also advises to obtain the buyer's signature on a dated
invoice. 

But to what avail ?  If the buyer lodges a false claim-back though Paypal and is successful, is ebay
suggesting we should physically challenge the buyer at their address ?  That's not the kind of thing we do. 
Anyway, it could be very dangerous to attend a buyer's physical address -- they might beat us up ! 
And they'd know where we live and could retaliate violently.  What if we weren't home and they harmed
members of our family, or even our home itself ?  In an extreme instance, couldn't such a scenario include
serious bodily harm or even murder ?

I've sought reassurance in Paypal's fine print, but the word 'discretion' disconcerts me a great deal.

It appears everything is at the mercy of Paypal's 'discretion'.  For example, Paypal may or may not overturn
 a false claim-back .. at its discretion.  And if I sell a postable item and the buyer falsely claims they've not
received it -- again, Paypal might or might not withdraw the payment from my account and return it to the buyer
 (or even freeze my account)  at its discretion.

Nowhere within Paypal's fine print, am I able to find cast-iron assurance that my interests (and reputation) as a
seller will be safeguarded by Paypal.  It seems to me that the Paypal 'guarantee' is open to interpretation .. at Paypal's
'discretion'. 

I don't feel safe using Paypal.  Is there anyone here who can persuade me it's safe to use Paypal ?

[*CountessA*]

This is one of the major drawbacks for PayPal!

You're obliged to offer PayPal, of course - and you cannot say "PayPal not accepted" for a pickup item. And you're absolutely correct - this leaves you completely vulnerable if the buyer decides to defraud you. It's even possible that the buyer picks up the item, is happy, then two weeks later damages the item, tries to get a refund from the seller who refuses (rightly so), and then thinks angrily, "Well, I can claim that I never received the item, and I WILL get my refund". That scenario is a realistic possibility.

You've got a couple of choices.

1. Have you thought about listing on Trading Post? The site is http://www.tradingpost.com.au. You're not forced to offer PayPal there. It's also free to list at this stage, so unless you actually sell the item, there is no cost involved.

2. You might try listing on Oztion. I don't know whether the market's big enough, but I believe that too is free to list, and again - no forced PayPal there.

3. If you really need to list on eBay to reach the market, that puts you in a very nasty cleft stick. You could try the following: It's in the way you word it, I think.

Rather than say "Pickup is not available for PayPal", just say: "Postage by trackable courier MANDATORY for PayPal. Buyer must choose courier postage option at checkout if paying by PayPal."

Shaneoz has confirmed that the seller can state that registered post is mandatory for buyers using PayPal, and the trackable courier issue is simply the same issue with a slightly different face (the pickup face).

Good luck, Frangi - the whole "pickup" scenario has become a bit of a nightmare with the enforced PayPal option on eBay.

[frangi]

I'm very grateful for your response and advice, Countessa, thank you 

For a moment there, I was terrified the moment you mentioned the alternative venues such as Oztion
and Trading Post.  I cringed in anticipation of harsh warnings and abuse from ebay.

Then I remembered this is a free and open forum where such matters may be discussed honestly. 
What a relief and pleasure it is to be able to do so.

I'm going to investigate the alternative auction venues ( Oztion and Trading Post ) and to consider your
suggestions, thank you again.

Wondering also if there exist other venues so far not mentioned and if it would be of benefit to Oz Round Table
members and browsers of this site if a discussion thread were dedicated to the various alternative venues, pros
and cons, etc. ?

Thank you again 

[*CountessA*]

A discussion about various online auction and selling alternative venues would be very welcome. eBay has cornered the marketplace, of course, but some of its policies may actually be offsetting the previous potential marketplace (number of potential buyers) which was the main reason for listing on eBay.

[brumbymg]

Frangi - this is one of the things I like about this place...


OZtion,
                Trading Post,
                                          Grays Online,
                   Etsy,
Amazon

... and not a slap to fear!! (Takes a bit of getting used to I must admit)

oh yes ... and eBay, of course.

*ducks for cover*

[*CountessA*]

Greetings: this is a slap-free board.

(Not totally, of course. There are obnoxious behaviours which would result in banning... but that has nothing to do with mentioning other auction venues!)

[qualitycateringco]

Hi Frangi,

I have a system for pickups that bypasses Paypal.  I have a printed receipt in duplicate that I require the recipient to sign. The footnote  states simply:
Thank you for shopping with QualityCatering
Item has been collected  and inspected by

signature

print name

ID verified

[/sub][/i]

There is no buyer that would question signing for an item.  We do it every day.  There is also no buyer who would falsely claim an Item Not Received, when their signature and licence no. is on a receipt. Paypal would be the least of their worries when the police came a-knocking.

I believe a Not As Described dispute would also fail, given that the buyer had acknowledged inspecting the item.

[cueperkins]

For a moment there, I was terrified the moment you mentioned the alternative venues such as Oztion
and Trading Post.  I cringed in anticipation of harsh warnings and abuse from ebay..

This is where Moderators are 'Moderate'.....   Who could be scared of cupie?

I'd be also interested in finding out as many venues as possible myself, to buy/sell and collect again...seems the hobby collectors have been priced out, and Paypal'd out.  I chose not to use Paypal and as a result I can't sell collectibles on Ebay after nearly 8 years, without conforming to Paypal's unreasonable terms.   That's not my idea of consumer choice I'm afraid.

[frangi]

Gee, i love this Oz Round Table forum   

Helpful advice, humour, wisdom, experience, comradeship .... everything I cannot find on ebay any longer


Thank you, Qualitycatering -- what you've suggested is a great idea !  Maybe it could be immortalized somewhere in the Oz Round Table, once everything's sorted out ?  

Like you, Cupie, I've so far refused to surrender to Paypal.  But we need the garage and will have to get rid of a number of large items.  So far, we've been giving them away by placing them in a corner of the community basement.  They go fast !  For instance, a dozen large agaves in pots which I'd reared since babyhood, plus eight very large and spectacular Yukkas in pots went in less than half an hour.  And it's pretty damn vexing (if I were the type to care, lol) when they turn up in pride of place in the front yard of nasty neighbours, lol.  Ummm.  But I can't give my daughter's furniture away.  Well I could, but would never hear the end of it.  And as ebay's still the most useful venue from that perspective, I think I'll have to bite the bullet soon and .... groan ... submit to Paypal.  Don't hate me.  Now at least, with Quality's advice, I'll feel a lot more confident.  Will try to sell them on Oztion first, of course.  But we have to get use of the garage again, very soon.

[Did647]

^^^ Great isn't it. 

[ernest_price]

I also pondered the issue as I had a lot of 'pickup only' items to sell over the last 4 months. In the end I just sucked it up, put them up for eBay auction and all went well. I think it was around 15 auctions that ended up being pickup, 12 were PayPal and I had 15/15 go great [as they always have].

While I know there *have* been PayPal problems, fundamentally most sales still go well - I'm not sure that much has changed, but we [including me] seem so much more scared to sell than we used to be say 2 years ago.

[*CountessA*]

Hello, Ernest.

Someone else mentioned that their listings stated a maximum deposit amount of ... 5%? 10% ... could be paid on the item before pickup.

And some sellers have mentioned they simply won't list pickup items any longer.

Yes, there's a perception of vulnerability, which isn't good.

Surely eBay could find a solution to this...? In the meantime, sellers will establish their own methods to work out the best way for themselves.

[ernest_price]

That perception of vulnerability is quite right - when I noted above that I 'pondered' when it came time to sell the last 50 items I've had [of which 15 or so were pickup] I actually thought about taking photos of the person accepting the pickup item, photos of their car and taking photos of items [if they weren't registered post] going in the post box etc. Scary crazy stuff when I think about it now.

Yet what had *really* changed since 12 months earlier when I was a happy eBay seller and buyer with no cares?

In the end I just said to myself "why bother", listed them all and sat back and let it all happen

[Did647]

^^^^ I had a bit of a vulnerable thing happening as well. Then realised that nearly all my Ebay transactions have gone just fine. Had a couple of NPBs, but that is probably to be expected! I do try to take care though!!

I have never had anyone ask to pay by paypal on a pick up. I have had the opposite , people asking if it was alright to pay cash on pickup. Had to think hard about that ... NOT

Perhaps people think they have to pay before they pickup. ? I now have cash on pickup on my listings. 

[*CountessA*]

Not long before the AU RT was closed, there was an interesting thread started by a buyer who was a tad annoyed with the seller who requested cash on pickup. The buyer posted along the lines of "No way am I going to pay by cash. eBay don't allow it."

She was surprised to learn that it wasn't the case! Both people who love using PayPal and people who don't love using PayPal offered similar advice - which is that PayPal for pickup items is not the recommended thing. But if the buyer pays anyway by PayPal, the seller's options are limited... and there are buyers who've paid by PayPal, had the Paypal payment refunded immediately with a nice explanation, and become offended - proceeding to report the seller as a non-performing seller.

And that is manifestly not right. Not for a pick-up item!

[Lady Rose]

I have had a paypal dispute taken out against me in the last couple of days,
THE STORY,
Newbie buys ring 12th April, buys another 13th April, pays the 16th April by paypal.
I posted the 16th which was a thursday by Registered . QLD to VIC
20th April newbie send email wheres my ring if you are not going to send it I want my money back, you said you posted on the 12th, WTF.
I replied how could I post on the 12th when you won the first ring on the evening of the 12th, Newbie emails back yeah that right I did pay. WTF
Saturday 25th I get a paypal dispute against me, paypal freezes $227.00. WTF
I go through the process tell then it was sent by Registered post  etc.
I email Newbie check the post office, no answer.
I check the post office today and parcel is waiting for her, been there since Friday.
I fax all off to Paypal and also email newbie.
NOTE I also put Newbie on Blocked bidders list.
I must also add that when she bought the first ring she left feed back straight away not to me but to Paypal LOL

[*CountessA*]

That's bizarre!

Did your buyer think that PayPal was reading your feedback?

And did your buyer apologise for the implicit accusation and hasty dispute?

[Lady Rose]

Hi Countessa have not heard from the buyer and dont think I will, just hope I get my money released.
I think they may be young, sem to have the money, but perhaps should not be on ebay.

[Primaryaim]

Lady Rose, you absolutely should not have had to go through all that hassle and angst. The pressure to chase up a parcel that was not even missing just because buyers are now empowered to make zealous demands and place financial turmoil on sellers who have been erroneously tarred with the 'dishonest' brush is completely out of control.

I cannot bring myself to sell again and cop this nonsense. I loved my buyers before paypal became so prominent and they appreciated me, everyone was happy. Now I think I would get hassled like you have been and it is not worth raised blood pressure. Paypal is bad for my health

[cueperkins]

Paypal is bad for my health

Hear hear Prim !!  Take two bank deposits and get some rest.