Buyer pulled a switcheroo on returned product.. need advice!

[surf-inside]

This is a problem that happens every 40 transactions or so..

Buyer buys a brand new electronic item from me.  Then after receiving it, states that it is broken or something else wrong with it.  So they send the item back.  The item is not the original item that I sold to them (i record serial numbers but do not always take pictures)

My distributor is really awesome, they take back the merchandise even though it wasn't the original item I purchased.

I had a buyer overseas who purchased an expensive item from me.  My distributor was out of stock so I purchased from another, and this other distributor packages differently.  The item was hard-plastic "clam shelled" meaning it didn't come in the standard box that item usually comes in but comes in cheaper, but harder to get into, packaging.  But the distributor also gives me lots of freebies so I sent the buyer this item plus a docking kit and a car charger/fm transmitter at no extra charge.

The buyer receives item and immediately notifies me there is a crack in the item. The crack is so small that it can only be seen with a magnifying glass, on the outer plastic case.  I tell the buyer to return everything, and I will issue a full refund.

Instead, buyer files a SNAD in paypal and says that I sent them a used item.  I contact them and ask them what the heck they are doing, are they trying to scam me?   They apologize, drop the dispute and return the merchandise.

Heres the problem: The item is not what I sold them.  They returned an item in a box, with a Canadian serial number, not the clam shell, and the serial numbers do not match, and they did not return the docking station and car kit that I sent also.

Then I found out that the buyer has a store.  Most of the people who scam me have a brick and mortar store.  This buyer does also.

The problem is that I cannot return this item to this other distributor because they won't take it back since it is not the same item that I purchased from them.  So the buyer has left me holding the bag and will probably owe them $300.

Not sure what my options here are at this point. As I said, I usually accept the scam and send the merchandise back to my good distributor who reimburses me and I refund the customer.  But this one is coming out of my pocket.

Not sure if I should...

1. Confront the buyer and tell them that they can't return someone else's used merchandise and keep my brand new item. Then file a dispute in Ebay.

2. Return the merchandise to the buyer (and file a dispute?)

3. File a police report, and have my local authorities request the assistance of the buyer's local constable. (dont this before)

4. Sell the item used on Ebay and eat the loss.

I noticed on Ebuster's site I cannot leave a complaint against the buyer.  I'm sure they've pulled this scam many times before.  The buyer has over 500 positive feedbacks, including mine.

Anyone have any suggestions regarding the appropriate course of action to take?

Thanks --
Mike

[square peg]

What would happen if you sent this person a very polite email saying something like, excuse me sir, but I think that you may find that you have returned the wrong item to me. I keep a record of all serial numbers of the products that I sell but the serial number of the item that you have returned to me does not match the one that I sent to you.

something like that anyway.

[surf-inside]

Well, the buyer obviously knows what they've done, it was intentional.  It happens to me often.  I usually don't sweat it because my distributor is so awesome and takes back anything I send them.  But not this one, that I purchased from.  Paypal disputes are usually always in favour of the buyer.

I'm going to have a hard time being considerate with this person.  They have basically stolen my new merchandise and returned a used and damaged item in a box that it didnt' even ship in originally!  Before the buyer returned the item I told them that in order to accept a return the serial numbers must match.  But still, they sent it back. 

My initial email to the buyer was, before I opened the package, where are the accessories I sent you?  Because the package I sent them was US 1 pound 6 ounces.  the package they returned is less than 13 ounces.  I should have refused delivery, and thought about refusing delivery at the time... I paused for a moment, knowing that they did not return all the goods because they sent a small package less than half the size of the one I shipped to them but did not suspect that they switched the item. 

Until I got home and opened the package. 

[*Brum6y*]

I doubt the buyer would respond positively - but it is at least a courteous communication giving them the opportunity to come good. This is always a good thing to do if you want to take matters further, otherwise if it goes to court and they pull the 'I didn't get a chance to sort it out because the seller was so aggressive' - or some similar rubbish. It's also a good idea because if their response to such a polite approach is to tell you where to go, then this is a clearer invitation for the seller to take a firmer stand.

As far as eBay and Paypal are concerned - all the buyer has to say is that the seller lied about serial numbers and they'll get away with it ... unless you take it to court, win the case and get an order for eBay and Paypal to sort their act out.


One idea I might suggest is to trace the serial number and find out (if you can) where the returned unit was purchased from.

Two things may come of that:
 (1) The supply chain can be demonstrated as one from which you have never purchased
and
 (2) There is the possibility the product may be traced to the buyer through that supply chain - which would be a brilliant piece of evidence if they were to be charged with fraud.


I have made this point several times in the past - that there is no way to prove who sent what. I have also put forward the suggestion that there could be some measure of protection if the postal authorities utilize x-ray imaging and link stored images to tracking numbers. It isn't a total solution, but that would have shown the different packaging and contents on this transaction.


Personally, I would like to see scammers nailed to the wall - but I appreciate there is a cost over and above the item value in time and expenses. At times, the business decision will outweigh the principle.

[square peg]

Hi surf,

I understand that you are angry at what this person has done. I am not suggesting that my approach was the right one, but I think that if you subtly let this scamster know that they have been busted, but give them a way out whilst saving face that the outcome is more likely to fall in your favour.

As it stands now, this person is obviously of loose morals, so if you attacked them (which is how they would see it) by saying "you have sent back the wrong item, you are trying to scam me" you are acknowledging that they have returned a item as per the rules, but it is only your word against theirs as to what was in that package. Their counterclaim could be that it was you who swapped the product or that you recorded the wrong serial number in the first place. - are you seeing how I am thinking? In addition, do you not only run the risk of having to refund the item, but they are likely to neg you as well.

Give them the chance to back out gracefully whilst saving face and in my opinion, it is more likely that things will work out in your favour.

[shyer]

You are scre..ed . As this is a USA to australian transaction even if you go to trouble and expense of tracing serial numbers and prove chain of distribution which court do you approach USA? expensive since you live in Australia. Any australian court will tell you any orders they make will be unenforceable in USA so more wasted time and money.

To give an example a second hand laptop seller on ebay sold me within Australia as tested to boot a $500 laptop . Item received had a battery that held zero charge ie not even could it run one second to boot on battery let alone hold boot for any time. Also the touchpad stopped boot before finished and endless loop occured. I took risk and got new battery and touchpad ( could have been a bigger problem but I took risk with time and money some $180). Started INAD.

Seller offered 1/2 of component costs and refused any labour cost. So I opted to return to sender . I sent back damaged useless parts only. I got 100% of my paypal payment back, if they had been reasonable different story.

I try to delink paypal and ebay, ie send a invoice myself from non ebay paypal account. Ebay one is more expensive. Not excepting package is not an answer, as it was available to you.

I also charge even then 10% extra for Pay$pus. I know I lose  many genuine sales with my charges. But I simply see it as P$pus is a problem FULL STOP. Genuine People who use P$pus pay for the P$pus abusers. I push post office COD after 20% deposit or post there and back plus $50 as minimum.  

[*Brum6y*]

Shyer - surf-inside is a US seller in California (using weights in pounds and ounces was an extra clue).  I presume his buyer is as well.

The buyer may be in Canada, but I'd be betting they're in the USA - so national jurisdiction isn't a problem. I don't know what local jurisdiction issues there might be - but I'd say Mike will have a good handle on that.


With a courteous message, the buyer has a chance to back out gracefully, knowing that the seller is well aware of what has happened - but they have two options.

The first is to do the right thing - which I don't think anybody is really expecting.

The second is to dig their heels in - and, in that case, they are just going to push the bullshit barrow as long and as hard as they can. People do these things quite deliberately in the belief that Paypal will roll over, force the seller to capitulate and insulate them from the repercussions. When challenged, they will shout louder and Paypal will reinforce their expectation. Once escalated to this level, then you are likely to find they will not back down, since they have 'declared their innocence' and will not want to lose face ... so they'll push you all the way to court.

Some might realise where they are headed and change their mind - but others will still go to court hoping some legal acrobat will magically win their case - not through the merits of the case, but with smoke and mirrors.


I have no predisposition in support or condemnation for either buyers or sellers. Problems do occur and reasonable people will sort them out .... but I reckon any scamming toad deserves to be nailed to the wall.

[Roo]

Surf said....

Instead, buyer files a SNAD in paypal and says that I sent them a used item.  I contact them and ask them what the heck they are doing, are they trying to scam me?   They apologize, drop the dispute and return the merchandise.[/b]

If I'm reading this right....it seems that the buyer has already dropped the dispute...so there is very little chance of them re-starting it.

So.....at the moment....unless they do a chargeback.....surf should not lose any money over this.

[Roo]

And to put the icing on the cake...he could also send this scammer a 'replacement' item....that just happens to weigh exactly the same amount as the original item.

I wonder how many pebbles it would take to make up the weight?...lol

[square peg]

roo - you're a very, very norti marsupial......

but I like how you think *insert smiley here but mine are broken so you have to imagine*

[surf-inside]

Wow first of all, thanks for all the great responses. I am going to sit on this for a couple of days, take a chill pill and calmly and rationally figure this out, with your input giving me guidance. 

You are correct, I am in California but the buyer is in the UK.  I researched the buyer and found he is also a seller, with lots of negatives that I only found through Toolhaus.  He has left feedback for other sellers "item was not as described" and other sellers left him negatives (when that was allowed) stating "SELLERS AVOID THIS BUYER!"

Doing a serial number trace is difficult, I would have to try to register the item to find out if it has already been registered.  If it has, I don't believe that I would be permitted to see who registered the product.

I researched this buyer's feedback to find out if he had purchased the same item but could not find any feedback that stated he did, but I did find postings on blog sites about music players that he has/had.  He may have purchased the product under a different ebay name.

But I know I am basically screwed.  I will have no other choice but to eventually refund.  I've considered sending a new item to him, but then he'd have two new items from me.

Yes, he did already file a SNAD right after receiving the product and then dropped it after I asked him if he was trying to scam me, or get the product for free without returning it first.  He was extremely apologetic and said he didn't know any better, but after looking at his 550+ feedback and negatives, I know he was just blowing smoke.   I don't know if he can refile a SNAD.  Some of his buyers never received their products. others said it took forever to get their items from him. 

I do know he can initiate a charge back.  I'm going to take the advice of others here and politely respond that the item he sent me was not the item I sent him, and he did not return the accessories as I had asked.  Then give him the option to send me the correct item in exchange for his used one.  Or try to get the distributor to give me back my money on the item and give him a partial refund.

I'm guessing he will file a dispute at this point.  I have worked with the police and recovered money from other buyers who filed against me in other countries.  I have a friend in the police department who does file reports for me, and then requests the assistance of the buyer's local constables to investigate.  This pressure has proven effective in the past.  But not always.

I'm still looking for his possible other alias (i now have two email addresses for the buyer) and find out if he has purchased this same item from another seller on ebay.

All i know is that he has other music players based on his postings on blog sites.  Financially, this problem is going to really hurt me.

Thanks, fine folks at Oz!
Mike

[*Brum6y*]

I understand the serial number trace might be problematic - especially with privacy laws these days.  I had wondered if making a formal complaint to the police might open some avenues for disclosure, but again, I have no idea of the rules, costs and so on...

But I can understand the 'sitting on it for a couple of days'.

Good luck.

[surf-inside]

Well using his other email address that he contact me through gave no results in google.  I discovered it was his girlfriend who made the purchase from me on Ebay.  But I went to facebook and looked up both email addresses and found both of their facebook pages.  Which then contained links to their myspace pages.

Where I found a link to his other alias on Ebay, and wow, this guy is a huge seller.  He has over 45K feedbacks and a Huge record store in the UK.  She (the buyer) works in his store.  He has quite a large ecommerce site, he is the largest seller of used records in the UK. From his ecommerce site I found a link to his alias on ebay with the 45K feedbacks and a link to his store there. 

Following the trail isn't yielding me much results.  He does complain about ebay sales and ebay fees and how he is barely making it.  This is a common theme in people who have stolen from me.  100% of the people who have scammed me are other sellers because they know how to game the system best.  And I know how to skip trace people pretty well.

I'm still searching for another alias that he uses to purchase electronics with. Finding that out will lead me to where he is selling electronics and that will be the key to unlocking the scam.  If i can find a craigslist posting (like I have in the past) or another alias selling the stolen electronics on ebay or another venue, I'll have him cornered.

Then I can confront him with the evidence and file a police report.  Knowing where he works, who his friends are, where he lives, should put pressure on him to take back the item.  There's a reason he had his girlfriend buy the item from me.  So that it could not be traced back to him.  But I'm getting there

Mike

[*CountessA*]

Issue a subtle threat, while at the same time offering him a way to back out. It seems to be assumed at this point that the buyer is a professional scammer, stocking his own "shop" with items he's scammed from others. That being the case, moral persuasions are not going to move him... but I believe that even people who practise dishonesty may take a way out if that way out offers a graceful exit from a situation that they can see might become untenable.

Dear [name]

I unfortunately must inform you that the item you have returned is not the item I have sold to you. I'm sure this is inadvertent, since I doubt you would do this deliberately! But by mistake, you've sent an item that (a) has the wrong serial number (I keep stringent records, including photos of all purchases with serial numbers against buyer addresses), and (b) doesn't include all of the extras I sent to you.

What's the best remedy for this? You've probably experienced some buyers from your own selling account doing the same thing (of course by accident). My standard procedure is to offer the buyer every possibility to remedy the situation by returning the correct item (complete with all extras), upon receipt of which I issue a refund and send back the incorrectly sent item. I find this is a better solution than assuming there has been fraud involved and have the person charged with fraud. Even though I have contacts in the UK who are excellent at solving these sorts of difficulties, I always prefer the friendlier solution.

Please do send back the correct item (complete and undamaged), and I will be more than happy to issue you with the required refund.

Yours faithfully,
[name]
cc Solly Sittor, Barrister
Sittor & Sittor

[tellomon]

Hi Surf! I dint read any of this. Perhaps we can be friends!
Are you on facebook?

[surf-inside]

Yes I am on facebook. 

I discovered another of his aliases with a store that sells video games and video game consoles with 3000 feedbacks. In all he has about 4,000 items listed on Ebay. Two facebooks accounts, 2 twitter accounts, and two myspace accounts. This is a busy guy...

but I could not find any evidence of MP3 or Audio Equipment sales or any related accessories for such.  I decided I'm going to just eat the cost, delay the refund and list the item for auction tomorrow. 

I will just chalk this up to a learning experience and insure packages to the UK going forward, as well as check the buyer's negatives to that country. 

Mike

[Centuries]

And, are you able to put a block on his sister's ID and all of his---or does he buy on other unknown IDs?

[*smee*]

hang the expense ... jump on a plane to the UK
and tap on his nose door

[square peg]

now dress me up and call me stupid naive, but would a bloke with that many items for sale really have the time to try and rip someone off for $300? I reckon you should at least send him the "I'm sorry, but you have sent me the wrong thing email" and see what he says

[*Brum6y*]

Why?.....

Why not!

Paypal makes it all too easy and Paypal UK have just made it even easier!!!


I like the way you work, Mike.  Pity you haven't found the 'missing link' - but, then, maybe that's where he is being a little more conservative.  Only selling these items in a B&M setting or just for personal use/gifts ... or some other avenue that is not represented online - so you can't find that link.  Seems a guy with that level of business would have a good idea on how to keep a low profile... on the critical points.

[surf-inside]

Square,  I considered this as well. Why would a busy, huge seller rip me off?  Because he doesn't plan to sell this, he plans to keep the new item and basically just exchanged his old item for a new one at no cost to him.  I do not believe he intends to sell item.

I have skip traced a lot of people who file INR disputes or pulled switcheroos and on on many of them I found aliases or craiglists postings where they were fending the merchandise.  One guy in canada ripped me off $460 USD and then I found the listing for my item on his local craigslist.  and other listings for lots of other merchandise.  Once he learned I was onto him, he went and deleted everything, including his facebook page. 

But Google caches pages for months, so I was able to retrieve the deleted listings and his face book page.  I found his real phone number, his cell, where he worked, who his friends were and emailed them first and asked them to pressure him into returning my money.  He turned out to be a used car salesman. He was stupid enough to put his phone number in his craistlist postings.   I surprised him when I called him at home and told him if he didn't drop the dispute that I was going to drive up there and handle this man to man, face to face.  The next day he sent back my $460 dollars.

Another guy in the UK ripped me off $460 also, for an Ipod, turns out he had a B&M GAME store.  I found, not on ebay, but on his e-commerce site, the stolen merchandise.  I filed a report with my police and sent him the case number and told him to expect a visit from the constable.  He also refunded me my money.

But this huge record seller / Game store owner in the UK,  the similarities between him and the other Game store owner are very similar.  But the other game store owner was fencing merchandise.  This new guy just seems to be replacing his old unit with mine.   I can't prove much other than he sent me back a different MP3 player.

Its aggravating.  Its always the Ipods and Mp3 players that are the targets. Or a few other electronics but mostly always Ipods and Zunes.
Its a shame.  I would love to fly to the UK and handle this man to man.  but like Brum said, the cost has to be considered.  And I've spend hours tracing this guys tracks.  On his facebook page he even discusses his purchase from me, on the day he purchased, and then made a post on the day he recieved it "I just recieved my MP3 bundle of loveliness" but then never any mention about it being damaged. 

I know what he did, he knows what he did.  Ebay and Paypal could care less what he did.  Now, this morning he emails me and says....

"I haven't received my refund yet... and I'm worried... I don't need to be worried do I?"  Well, you wouldn't have to be worried if you hadn't done something criminal, morally reprehensible. He used his girlfriends ebay account to make the purchase to avoid tainting his big powerseller accounts.  His girlfriends account already has the negs on it, but his big powerseller accounts are spotless.

I'm sure he has another alias that i Have not yet found.  But not sure if I am willing to invest more time in uncovering the dirty deed.

Mike

[surf-inside]

Why?.....

Why not!

Paypal makes it all too easy and Paypal UK have just made it even easier!!!


I like the way you work, Mike.  Pity you haven't found the 'missing link' - but, then, maybe that's where he is being a little more conservative.  Only selling these items in a B&M setting or just for personal use/gifts ... or some other avenue that is not represented online - so you can't find that link.  Seems a guy with that level of business would have a good idea on how to keep a low profile... on the critical points.

You could be right, Brum. He could be selling this out of the B&M store.  He has a huge store, and where there's music, I'm sure there are music players.

I could have an ebay friend email his online store (he does not know that i know he has two stores on ebay and two ecommerce sites) and ask if he sells MP3 players and see what his response is.

If this were a legit transaction why wouldn't he use his own account? why use his girlfriends account?  To keep his account clean, thats why.
I have not replied to his email "worrying about his refund" and even if he does dispute, I have ways of getting my money put back into my account so i can resume business uniterrupted

[shyer]

My experience on Australian P$Pus and some USA P$P is that once a dispute opened and closed is that dispute can not be reopened. This may be a UK dispute and P$P changes from week to week. I agree to wait and see, it is highly likely that P$P will not get involved in a now closed dispute.

[surf-inside]

Shyer, you may be right.  But they can open a different kind of dispute. I had that one buyer who first opened an unauthorized transaction. Then a SNAD, then finally ended up returning the product when I won both disputes.

Now I have another problem with this buyer. I refunded them their money. Now they want the return shipping costs AND the import duty taxes that they paid on the item when it was delivered.

They have not yet left me feedback.  I am going to skirt the issue for a few days until I hear back from them again.  The only thing they haven't asked for is a blank check.

What I plan to do is tell them that I refunded their money on the condition that they return all items, which they did not, and in fact, they returned a completely different item, but that I, as a good seller, honored the return and gave them a full refund.

I mean whats next? they want me to pay their rent utility bills!?

[*Brum6y*]

I wouldn't be surprised WHAT buyers want paid.....

I have another story from the seller I've mentioned in two threads in the PayPal board here - (I am relating this from memory, so I may miss some bits - but you'll get the story...)

A buyer buys a replacement screen for his laptop - straight off the listing. No questions, no communication - just bought and paid.

Screen arrives and it's the wrong size. Let's be clear here - it was EXACTLY the screen he bought, he just bought the WRONG ONE.  

He gets onto the seller and goes off about it - but the seller sends out a second screen based on the information the buyer gives him.  Well, the buyer wasn't too good at getting the right information and this second screen won't fit.

So he contacts the seller once more and demands the seller sends him the correct screen. The seller finally gets enough information to send him the right screen, but states he won't send a third until the other two are returned.

At this, the buyer goes off and (amongst other things) threatens to sue the seller for wasting his time............


It takes all kinds ..... and eBay and Paypal have the knack for bringing them out of the woodwork.