Oz Round Table
The Oz Round Table boards => The Round Table => Topic started by: Bazinga on September 02, 2009, 10:13:06 AM
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Some thoughts for this thread on Ebays CS "Charged $140 for the privilege of being a Paypal victim of fraud!".
http://forums.ebay.com.au/topic/Community-Spirit/Charged-140-For/600122186&start=0
The first thing I would do is get a police report relating to the fraud.
Next I would contact both paypal and my bank demanding the return of funds and OD fees.
Failing that a complaint to the
Financial Ombudsman Service http://www.fos.org.au/centric/home_page.jsp
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A question from Holydooly How can 0-9 be safer than a-z and their variantsl
A combination of letters and numbers is safer because a common method to hack accounts is to use a dictionary attack to get passwords.
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brisneygirl Well I have had two different passwords hacked and both have been a long combination of numbers and letters. I thought they would have been sufficient.
This doesn't help when you either give your details to a fake site from a fake email OR you go to an unsafe site that has scripts to capture your usernames and pass words store in your browser.
Never let your browser store passwords for important things.
next method is a keystroke logger, again this is normally loaded from dodgy sites.
There are 2 ways to avoid these when conducting banking or important business.
The first is to have passwords stored in a text document and then use copy & paste to insert them, this can be stored on a USB drive so its not on your computer.
Second and even better if you dint want sensitive info stored on your computer or else where is to use the on screen key board, this is under START/ PROGRAMS / ACCESABILITY/ ON SCREEN KEYBOARD.
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And most important is to use a different password for every site you are registered with.
Use a different email address for paypal and only use it for paypal, the fake fake emails that come to your regular email address are easily idenified as fakes when its the wrong account they are addressed to.
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Thanks Hawk, this does need discussion...the way I look at it....correct me if I've got it wrong....someone hacked into this person's account, and took the funds...and as a result she copped overdrawn fees right?..if not, please fill in the gaps....
She should first contact her bank and notify them of the issue that exists with Paypal security and which caused the overdrawn fees in the first place.....They would no doubt be very interested, given that Paypal generally requires CC or B/account backing up their accounts etc. Banks have their own security centre, so she needs to speak to them first, and then request the removal of the fees.
Then BFSO...absolutely.....re: General complaint regarding account security..the OP should also put in their banks' reply re: how they view the security issue with Paypal and whether they'll remove the fees, if not, then include them in the complaint.
It's the bank that needs to waive the fees, and Paypal need to account for their laxidasical, idea of account security that led to the imposition of bank fees.... if neither cooperate, then both need to be reported to BFSO. But I'd report this Paypal security breach to BFSO, irrespective of whether the OP get's her money back...it's the actual security issue that BFSO need to be advised of.
I'd also then contact police, but not the local ones....Scamwatch isn't it?...I've lost most of the links I researched last year. In fact the Bank itself might be able to advise on the best way to report the fraud.
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Hawk, excellent points.
A bank customer should not be up for fees relating to an account being overdrawn through fraud. If the client has done as much as possible to minimise the fraud and avoid it from occurring, PayPal needs to be held accountable for permitting the fraud.
1. It is unlikely that the PayPal account was hacked. What is most possible is that a keylogger is on her computer, and every time she entered her password, that information was sent straight to a third party (as Hawk has stated). It's also possible (again, as Hawk has stated) that this person did inadvertently enter her password onto a phishing site.
2. To establish which are likely, the following needs to be considered:
a. When did you or anyone on your computer last visit a new site? Did you know that many sites about celebrities (popular sites) are specifically designed to lure visitors, and that merely visiting the site is enough to install a nasty on your computer? THINK... which sites have you been visiting? Is it at all possible that you've visited a popular site and become an inadvertent host to a keylogger, or trojan, or other information-gathering or malicious-information-sending malware or virus?
b. When did you or anyone on your computer download something "free" from an internet site? There is a good reason why one one should avoid "free" downloads - be very careful, because you do NOT know what else is being downloaded silently and invisibly at the same time. Again, keyloggers, trojans, virus, malwares... it can all happen without your knowing.
c. Is your anti-virus / anti-malware / anti-trojan protection up to date and does it give good protection? Run a full scan. Be suspicious rather than complacent. If your anti-virus is NOT up to date, download the latest updates and run a full scan. Also check your computer at one of several authenticated sites to see whether anything nasty crops up. If it does, and your own protection didn't pick it up, you need to think about different anti-virus protection.
d. Did you reply to any suspicious email? Did you click onto any links in any emails at all? NEVER NEVER do that... This is classic phishing scam technique.
e. Have you recently received an email alerting you to suspicious activity in your account, or telling you that your account details needed to be checked? And did you follow the links? NEVER NEVER NEVER do that - because if you did, you fell victim to a phishing scam.
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Seal of disapproval......
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/eBay%20nasty%20pix-gifs/PayPalTerrified.jpg)
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Hey! You stole that from me!
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Hey! You stole that from me!
No I didn't.. I found it on another thread, it wasn't bolted down and no one was looking so I took it !....
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a. When did you or anyone on your computer last visit a new site? Did you know that many sites about celebrities (popular sites) are specifically designed to lure visitors, and that merely visiting the site is enough to install a nasty on your computer?
The most common sites to pick up nasties from are porn and hack sites that offer pirated software or codes to make trial vesions of software into full versions.
One that few are aware of is the use of children to install nasties,
this is done by offereing kids free games to play, kids dont know the dangers involved and will happily download dozens of free games, any can contain monitoring software that records and sends info back to the hacker.
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Hey! You stole that from me!
would it be posible to stay on topic for once???
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Hey! You stole that from me!
No I didn't.. I found it on another thread, it wasn't bolted down and no one was looking so I took it !....
Right. And who posted it to that thread?
I did.
And I am looking.
You swiped it!
Confess!!!!!
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:topic:
TOPIC...
Keep Symantec's page bookmarked. The ever-growing list of computer nasties is a rude shock for those who believe it's safe on the internet without protection. The URL is http://www.symantec.com/security_response/threatexplorer/azlisting.jsp. (That's the "A" page. Click onto each letters at the top of the page to see the nasties beginning with B-, C-, etc.)
Latest risks: http://www.symantec.com/norton/security_response/threatexplorer/index.jsp
Misleading applications: http://www.symantec.com/norton/theme.jsp?themeid=mislead
Actually, it's worth my pasting that entire page across, for the benefit of everyone here. Be aware - you can be sure you're on a legitimate page, but you're anything BUT.
Misleading Applications – What you need to know
Misleading applications can sneak onto your computer as you surf the Web. Once installed, scammers use them to commit fraud and identity theft. Here’s what you need to know to guard against spyware and other misleading applications.
Introduction
Have you ever seen a strange security message pop up like an advertisement while you're surfing the web? Have you seen an unexpected balloon message appear from an unknown program on your system, telling you that you’re infected with a new threat? These are common tactics used by a type of program Symantec calls "misleading applications" and other people refer to as “Rogue Software” or “Rogue Anti-Virus”. These programs typically sneak onto their victims’ systems while they surf the web, masquerade as a normal Microsoft Windows alert, or otherwise trick people into downloading them onto their computer. Once installed, misleading applications exaggerate or make false claims about the security status or performance of your system, then promise to solve these bogus problems if you pay them.
What are misleading applications?
Misleading applications intentionally misrepresent the security status of a computer. Misleading applications attempt to convince the user that he or she must remove potentially malware or security risks (usually nonexistent or fake) from the computer. The application will hold the user hostage by refusing to allow him or her to remove or fix the phantom problems until the “required” software is purchased and installed. Misleading applications often look convincing—the programs may look like legitimate security programs and often have corresponding websites with user testimonials, lists of features, etc.
How they Attack
(http://www.symantec.com/content/en/us/home_homeoffice/images/theme/misleading/nor-misleading-apps-how-they-attack.gif)
Misleading applications typically strike people when they are surfing the web. There is not a single type of website where these applications are found, but they are more common from sites offering pirated goods and adult content, as well as blogs and forums. They can even sneak into advertisements on legitimate sites, usually through banner ads at the top of Web page. In order to get installed onto a system, a person is usually either tricked into downloading the program (thinking it’s something else) or a small program called a “Downloader” is installed by the attacker through an un-patched flaw in the person’s web browser. This is often known as a “drive-by” install.
Misleading applications often are not the first unwanted program to land on a person’s system. A Downloader, such as Trojan.Zlob or Downloader.MisleadApp, infect the system first and then download the misleading application to the computer. Once the downloaded application is installed and ready, the malware that installed it will inform the user that they are infected with a new, previously unknown threat. This can be done through a “balloon message” that appears in the lower right-hand side of the system. The misleading application will then present itself and either pretend to download or run a scan of the system.
The scan results produced by the misleading application may be entirely false or may include some real issues affecting the system, but will always exaggerate the problems on the system and refuse to fix them until the vendor is paid and a registration key is entered into the program.
Why are they dangerous?
Misleading applications, sometimes called rogue software or rogue anti-virus, trick consumers into believing a problem exists on their system. Consumers who trust the messages are tricked into purchasing bogus applications for resolution of the problems they have been duped into believing exist. Misleading applications scam consumers out of money, faking the existence of problems and failing to deliver the protection they promise. They also create a privacy risk as the victim must provide their credit card information to the scammers in order to register the misleading application and solve the supposed problems.
The victims of misleading applications have paid for software that does not work, handed their personal information to scammers, and are left with a false sense of security that leads them to potentially greater risks from more aggressive threats. Even if a person catches on to the ruse and does not pay the misleading application vendor, the programs can be notoriously difficult to remove without the proper security software.
What To Do
* Use Norton Internet Security to proactively protect from spyware and other security risks
* Configure the firewall in Norton Internet Security to block unsolicited requests for outbound communication
* Be especially cautious when clicking on pop-up advertisements—especially ads promoting system security or performance tools that look like a standard Microsoft Windows alert
* Do not accept or open suspicious error dialogs from within the browser
* Purchase security and system performance software from reputable sources
* Keep software and security patches up to date
List of Misleading applications
* Antivirus2009
* AntiVirusXP2008
* SpySheriff
* WiniGuard
* TheRegistrySentinel
* VirusRemover2008
* VirusDoctor
PLEASE... don't ever download any of these.
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Hey! You stole that from me!
No I didn't.. I found it on another thread, it wasn't bolted down and no one was looking so I took it !....
Right. And who posted it to that thread?
I did.
And I am looking.
You swiped it!
Confess!!!!!
Bring out the bamboo splinters !... I ain't spilling my gut's !....
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Might I suggest to anyone using PayPal that the purchase of a PP security key is a must. AU$7.50 is cheap for the extra peace of mind. There is also a mobile phone version.
https://www.paypal.com/au/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/Marketing_CommandDriven/securitycenter/PayPalSecurityKey-outside
This key can also be linked to your eBay account.
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Vacuumdog, thanks for that link. I didn't realise that PayPal had a security key pad. You would think they would promote it more to PayPal/eBay users. I have one for banking with the Bendigo, it was a compulsory part of registering for online banking, and I think it cost $20 at the time.
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This is from the victim:.....
Maybe you should call the Financial Ombudsman and verify those facts John, as you will find they are incorrect.
Paypal Australia is a member of the scheme and the complaints officer from the Ombudsman gave me a number for the Paypal Sydney office that does not go to their call centre. She wanted me to try there first. She also gave me a number for Comm Bank to try there.
If you go to the Ombudsman's website and search Paypal you will find an annual report for 08/09 stating there were 71 dispute cases closed for Paypal Australia during that period.
If I don't get any joy with either of those then I am to make a written complaint and the Ombudsman will decide who they will chase so that I am not out of pocket.
She also advised that if I do get my fees refunded, then the Ombudsman will essentially have nothing to investigate and I should make a complaint to ASIC about my Paypal security concerns.
And more on the victims security response:.........
I should have said the first time was in 2004 (?). I was concerned it had happened twice with Paypal when I have used other online financial services online for longer without incident.
I have checked for virus/spyware with a few different programs (I work for a software comp so have access to a few programs). But I wonder if it was a virus/spyware, why is it only paypal again? Is it the easiest target? Surely people keep more money in their financial institutions accounts than their paypal a/c, so wouldn't they be more attractive to hit?
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why is it only paypal again? Is it the easiest target?
Yup !!!!! That's the one.....They won't sign the EFT code, and if they did, they'd have to improve their security and indemnify account holders...they are the WORST in terms of security on the entire net...and yet they promote themselves as the 'safest'?....
The confusion arises because this so called safety they promote, has nothing to do with account security....(which is largely non existent).....it is all about consumer charge backs...nothing more....!!! And we've all seen how deceptive that is haven't we? Just another way to avoid cleaning up the fraud on ebay and verifying sellers....that's all Paypal is... a lucrative excuse.
Until Paypal sign the EFT code and secure their product from Identity Theft, Fraud and Data interception...they are a total liability. I guess the only time officialdom will act is when thousands of accounts are hacked into and defrauded.....then they may be reviewed by RBA and ASIC and ordered to improve their security or stop lying to consumers. Too bad it has to get to that stage before anybody acts to regulate them. AT the very least, consumers should NOT be extorted into using a payment system that is well below par when it comes to consumer safety.
I noticed one poster on that thread saying that at one time, thousands of Paypal account holders names and details had been published on the Ebay US site, and left there for hours...????...is that true?...unbelievable.
Surely people keep more money in their financial institutions accounts than their paypal a/c, so wouldn't they be more attractive to hit?
Oh...but that's what they're aiming for.....just think about it....I could sign up to Paypal using a totally separate bank account that I've opened purely for that purpose, but that wouldn't protect me. It's your IDENTITY they're after, and once they get that, what do you think they're going to do then?
Puspal DON'T indemnify you against Identity theft or data transmission....convenient eh?....well that's what you have agreed to in accepting their UA.....and that's why these new 'Unfair Consumer Contract' laws, implemented nationally, are so very important.
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Some good new's...not a perfect outcome yet but still good....
"""I had a small win today. Comm Bank refunded $70, so I am still out of pocket $70. I think I got lucky cause the telephonist I spoke to at Comm Bank also had money stolen from his a/c and rode the roundabout trying to get his fees refunded, so I think he had a lot of pity for me.
CB want Paypal to meet them halfway with the fees. Paypal are determined not to budge, so I guess I will make a formal complaint with the Ombudsman and ASIC.
Comm Bank and the Ombudsman asked if I had reported it to the police. Do you think I should?"""
""I registered at the other site yesterday but haven't been given keys to the door (awaiting approval).""...... I'm not sure what this sentence refers to?...ozrt?....Countess? thoughts?...
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I can't see a new account awaiting approval - has something gone amiss?
It's good news on the partial victory! But I agree it would be fitting for PayPal to come part of the way in addressing the issue of fees.
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I do hope that the OP of that thread still reports the security issue as well as the request for refund to the FSO....the complaint should include the fact that it was Paypal's security issue that led to the overdrawn fees. Cause=Effect....If the Paypal account hadn't been hacked, the consumer wouldn't have incurred the fee. More particularly the case if she's done everything required of her to mitigate...i.e. safe password, decent virus scanner, hasn't pressed any links in phishing emails. At the very least..Paypal should be required to investigate the hacking issue objectively and find out how it occurred...shouldn't they?
If people don't inform the FSO, they can't amass evidence of systemic issues with Paypal's security, and refer them to ASIC...If enough CONSUMERS complain, then ASIC will investigate....they also administer the EFT Code of conduct, and recommended during the Paypal only rebellion that Paypal sign the code of conduct...they declined of course. So, it isn't a new concept that Paypal should sign the EFT code, it came from the authority that administers it....sooner or later, with enough complaints, Paypal's reverse all imaginable liability 'User Agreement', may be brought into question.
The whole point of the EFT code, is to protect US, against account hacking, identity theft and fraud...(which Paypal's UA removes itself from altogether).....it also protects us against unconscionable conduct by banks and other financial institutions. Why wouldn't we all want Paypal to abide by that? Until they do, I'll never consider being a customer.
Paypal itself should be called to account, and provide this consumer with a guarantee against any future hacking attempt, or put it in writing that they won't or don't provide that level of safety. Let Paypal tell the ombudsman what they are doing to protect consumers....that would be a very short point list now wouldn't it?.
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The OP has signed up for entry here at ozroundtable but has not apparently as yet had their membership confirmed.
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Checking - that particular ID was confirmed yesterday; just double-checking that the email notification was sent correctly...?
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Hi - I am the OP from ebay's chatboard.
Thank you for the messages pointing me in this direction.
I have skimmed through this thread and seen some great advice and plan on coming back later tonight or tomorrow and reading through thoroughly (got to run now as I am supposed to be somewhere).
But before I go, I will reinforce that I plan to make formal complaints to whoever will listen. I haven't made a police report, but plan on making one as soon as I get the letter from CBA stating that even though the transactions were fraudulent, they are only going to refund half of the fees and expect paypal to refund the other $70.
I estimate I have spent 4-5hrs on the phone to various organisations trying to get this sorted. I am so fed up and feel sorry for the people that aren't as persistant and would just wear the fees. I am seriously considering trying to get some media coverage for this to highlight what can happen if you accept paypal's UA.
Another thing that is very alarming is so many people have told me about paypal horror stories similar to mine (even the telephonist at CBA had his a/c hacked(?) and money stolen).
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Hi Brisneygirl....good to see you found your way in here...and great to see that you intend to take this further...if you need help or advice feel free to ask or email...Cheers
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This board needs more girls -- and we're getting them!
:yess:
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'Natural laws have no pity.' --Robert Heinlein
Hello Ron... I see your a science fiction buff as well..
:wine:
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Yeah, I have a few movies.
(My faves are: The Thing, Maximum Overdrive, Terminator, Alien, The Island, Killdozer [very hard to find], & Ghosts of Mars.)
I swiped the quote from http://www.darwinawards.com/misc/quote.html (http://www.darwinawards.com/misc/quote.html).
Stay on topic.
Yib & I got spanked recently for messing up this thread.
Don't be next.
:evil:
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First of all a BIG HI brisney !.... we have been expecting you and have followed your case / story.... we always keep a finger on the pulse and we don't don't miss much.... please feel free to ask the members here which have been Obeyers for many years... there's not much we haven't seen, some of us are sellers also so you will get the correct answers not guesses ... I don't know how far back you go with Obey but you may remember or have heard of the great rebellion, when Obey tried unsuccessfully to make Paypus the only payment system, well most of the members here were the thorn in Obeys side, if it wasn't for the efforts of the guy's here and some still over yonder Paypus would now be the only way to pay over the dark side, you won't get slapped here for voicing your concerns as over there, once your over this episode myself and the other members hope you stick around, we don't just do Ebay subjects here... if you look around the site you will see we have a ball as well... we love a good laugh amongst each other and you won't find a friendlier bunch of people on any other site...... Welcome !
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Yeah, and stay ON topic.
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G'day Brisney girl. Welcome aboard.
:pirateship:
As Yib said, there is a lot of fun to be had on the OZ Roundtable.
:pirateshoot:
This is me in a happy mood.
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Welcome, Brisneygirl!
I'm glad to hear you're not going to take this loss without doing battle. Too many times we can stymie ourselves before even taking up the fight, and that can't help anyone. Standing on our consumer rights (which ought to protect us against fraud) is never just an individual victory. I look forward to hearing what happens next, and please let us know if you're not sure about any step in the process.
We'll probably all be chipping in with advice regardless...
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Welcome to the site Brisneygirl. :quack: :welcome!: :welcomedesk: :welcome: :kisshug:
We do have lots of fun and it's great to give and receive advice without fear.
Hope it all works out for you.
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Lots of colorful characters here, and not a one of them is **PINK**!!!!!!
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Thank you for the welcome.
I welcome any suggestions/tips you have on how I can proceed with this.
Does anyone know if there is a state police dept who has an operation/task-force aimed at cyber crime?
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Some thoughts for this thread on Ebays CS "Charged $140 for the privilege of being a Paypal victim of fraud!".
http://forums.ebay.com.au/topic/Community-Spirit/Charged-140-For/600122186&start=0
The first thing I would do is get a police report relating to the fraud.
Next I would contact both paypal and my bank demanding the return of funds and OD fees.
Failing that a complaint to the
Financial Ombudsman Service http://www.fos.org.au/centric/home_page.jsp
Getting a police report as soon as I have the documentation from CBA (should be here this week).
Have contacted paypal numerous times and they argue they are CBA's fees so there is nothing they can do about it (CBA actually advise that Paypal have covered their fees before in similar matters ?!?)
I have already sought advice from the ombudsman and will be making a complaint as soon as I have the police report.
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A question from Holydooly How can 0-9 be safer than a-z and their variantsl
A combination of letters and numbers is safer because a common method to hack accounts is to use a dictionary attack to get passwords.
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brisneygirl Well I have had two different passwords hacked and both have been a long combination of numbers and letters. I thought they would have been sufficient.
This doesn't help when you either give your details to a fake site from a fake email OR you go to an unsafe site that has scripts to capture your usernames and pass words store in your browser.
Never let your browser store passwords for important things.
next method is a keystroke logger, again this is normally loaded from dodgy sites.
There are 2 ways to avoid these when conducting banking or important business.
The first is to have passwords stored in a text document and then use copy & paste to insert them, this can be stored on a USB drive so its not on your computer.
Second and even better if you dint want sensitive info stored on your computer or else where is to use the on screen key board, this is under START/ PROGRAMS / ACCESABILITY/ ON SCREEN KEYBOARD.
My password was a long combination of letters and numbers. I have not followed a link from an email. My password was unique to paypal and not stored on my PC.
Two days prior to the fraud I made a purchase from Deal Extreme.
http://www.dealextreme.com/
Contact us:
TO: DealExtreme
Room 225-226, Block B, Focal Industrial Centre
21 Man Lok street
Hung Hom, Kowloon
Hong Kong
Funnily enough when I logged into my paypal a/c, this was one transaction:
Payment To ? ?
And parts of my paypal account were changed to some Asian language. The transactions were from Quebec, where they mainly speak French I beleive.
Anyway, I mentioned this to Paypal and was assured there wasn't a connection.....
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Hi Again Brisney...I'd be including that information in your complaint to police and also to the ombudsman. It might be a good idea to check out the seller too, so I'll let you know what we find out.
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Hawk, excellent points.
A bank customer should not be up for fees relating to an account being overdrawn through fraud. If the client has done as much as possible to minimise the fraud and avoid it from occurring, PayPal needs to be held accountable for permitting the fraud.
1. It is unlikely that the PayPal account was hacked. What is most possible is that a keylogger is on her computer, and every time she entered her password, that information was sent straight to a third party (as Hawk has stated). It's also possible (again, as Hawk has stated) that this person did inadvertently enter her password onto a phishing site.
2. To establish which are likely, the following needs to be considered:
a. When did you or anyone on your computer last visit a new site? Did you know that many sites about celebrities (popular sites) are specifically designed to lure visitors, and that merely visiting the site is enough to install a nasty on your computer? THINK... which sites have you been visiting? Is it at all possible that you've visited a popular site and become an inadvertent host to a keylogger, or trojan, or other information-gathering or malicious-information-sending malware or virus?
b. When did you or anyone on your computer download something "free" from an internet site? There is a good reason why one one should avoid "free" downloads - be very careful, because you do NOT know what else is being downloaded silently and invisibly at the same time. Again, keyloggers, trojans, virus, malwares... it can all happen without your knowing.
c. Is your anti-virus / anti-malware / anti-trojan protection up to date and does it give good protection? Run a full scan. Be suspicious rather than complacent. If your anti-virus is NOT up to date, download the latest updates and run a full scan. Also check your computer at one of several authenticated sites to see whether anything nasty crops up. If it does, and your own protection didn't pick it up, you need to think about different anti-virus protection.
d. Did you reply to any suspicious email? Did you click onto any links in any emails at all? NEVER NEVER do that... This is classic phishing scam technique.
e. Have you recently received an email alerting you to suspicious activity in your account, or telling you that your account details needed to be checked? And did you follow the links? NEVER NEVER NEVER do that - because if you did, you fell victim to a phishing scam.
1. Maybe that is true - but why paypal? They would have found log-in details to far more lucrative sources than a paypal a/c with no money. They would have gotten details to ANZ, Commbank and Commsec.
2a - I am the only person who uses my laptop. The last new site I can recall going to was Deal Extreme (see above post). I visit sites like - ninemsn, news.com.au, ebay, catchoftheday, oo.com.au, facebook etc,. They are all fairly mainstream. I don't go to celebrity sites.
2b - I can't recall downloading anything free. I have downloaded a trial version of software from their own site since, but I then purchased it and everything seems ok.
2c - I have uptodate AVG and run spybot. I regularly check and nothing untoward has come up. I also took in into work (I work for a software company) and run whatever they use and it didn't pick anything up apart from some tracking cookies that aren't nasty apparently. I actually thought we had pretty tight measures on our firewall at home, but I could be wrong (I am married to an IT person too).
2d - I don't click on links from emails. Even when I got the paypal emails to say these transactions had been made I went directly to the website and logged in.
2e - see point 2d. I rarely log into paypal directly anyway (except for when I saw these transactions come through). I only ever log in when prompted through ebay etc when in the process of making a payment. I have never had a paypal transaction not go through, or raise some suspicion of being directed to a fake site.
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Hi Again Brisney...I'd be including that information in your complaint to police and also to the ombudsman. It might be a good idea to check out the seller too, so I'll let you know what we find out.
I will mention it. I have a friend who has purchased from that site before without incident.
I should also mention that I become aware of the transactions happening after the two went through. I logged into my paypal a/c and there wasn't anything I could do. I did delete/unlink my credit card from paypal, but I couldn't do anything about the bank a/c cause there were payments pending. I actually rang ANZ (cc company) and told them these transactions were occuring and they made a note of it. I also rang Commbank and told them the same and they said 'don't worry, they won't go through' which they didn't, but she failed to mention the dishonour fees. It was midnight when the transactions were going through and paypal phone support closes at 10pm.
In retrospect I should have left the credit card linked as it is the back-up source, so had it been charged, then I am sure it would have been easier to deal with Visa then CBA and their dishonour fees.
So it feels like a real kick in the guts cause I spent nearly over 1hr on the night it happened trying to minimise the damage as best I could.
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Oh, and I do plan on venturing out of this thread soon - lol :blush:
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Oh, and I do plan on venturing out of this thread soon - lol :blush:
The Yibster and I are here for ya, anticipating your every vent, rant, rave and mood!!!! :wine:
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Oh, and I do plan on venturing out of this thread soon - lol :blush:
The Yibster and I are here for ya, anticipating your every vent, rant, rave and mood!!!! :wine:
And we're here to make sure they behave emselves !!!
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Brisney girl...we may be onto something...but...can you message me the Ebay User ID of the seller? (don't post it here...just email me via the site message system).
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Oh, and I do plan on venturing out of this thread soon - lol :blush:
The Yibster and I are here for ya, anticipating your every vent, rant, rave and mood!!!! :wine:
And we're here to make sure they behave emselves !!!
Bris...Cupies referring to Tello ... I'm the innocent one that gets blamed when Tello is off the leash and run's amuck......
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Brisneygirl, I've included contact information for the Ombudsman and for reporting online fraud to the police - in this thread (http://www.ozroundtable.com/index.php?topic=876.0).
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Brisneygirl, I've just googled your seller's name and their is almost identical question about unauthorised PayPal transactions in a forum in July. There was no answers to their question, but it sounds like a bit more than a coincidence to me. I would be making sure PayPal are aware of your suspicions.
http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?sduid=0&t=1454637
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Brisneygirl, I've just googled your seller's name and their is almost identical question about unauthorised PayPal transactions in a forum in July. There was no answers to their question, but it sounds like a bit more than a coincidence to me. I would be making sure PayPal are aware of your suspicions.
http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?sduid=0&t=1454637
Excellent work wheels !
Comment from the thread you found:....
""Greetings, Was wondering if anyone has had any fraud activity on their paypal account right after ordering something from DealExtreme? I've had two charges on my Paypal account show up on the same day (today actually) after making an order with DealExtreme about a week and a half ago. I've ordered from DX before without any probs . just can't remember if I used my Paypal account at checkout. This may be a major coincidence but I'm suspicious/paranoid/etc.""
There is much more to this fraud than meets the eye.... there could be many others that accepted what happened to them and never followed through !....
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There's a few more connections than that wheels.... another member has located several retail sites with different names, but identical addresses in Hong Kong or relationships to this seller...the plot thickens.
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And another complaint from Feb 2009 - same scenario - made a purchase, paid by PayPal, then followed by fraudulent transactions.
http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/my-grant-search-c170025.html
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The sellers name dealextreme is not registered on Ebay, so we are assuming they are using a different name there, but there are several others on Ebay that link back to dealextreme....Brisney will have to let us know the sellers name on Ebay and we'll see if anything else links up.
Great work Wheels...and also to the other member who will reveal themselves if they feel inclined...or maybe not...lol
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The connections add up - and it now seems likely that this is NOT phishing, but indeed hacking - and at the PayPal end of things.
The consistent connection to having purchased through dealextreme (under whatever name they use) can scarcely be explained as a coincidence.
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Letsee PP weasle out of this one!!!!
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It's starting to look that way Countess, i.e. if Brisney bought this direct from dealextreme, then the issue is squarely on Paypal being the target because of their laughable account security...and this is EXACTLY why I wouldn't join Paypal if they were the last payment method on earth...
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Once all the information is gathered this should be on 60 minutes !.... of course after the authorities have dealt with the guilty party / parties !.... another flaw with Paypus exposed !...
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Just some background I have found on the dealextreme business. Probably doesn't help Brisneygirl though. ;D
It was originally called fifthunit.com, run by Kai Lam & Sonny (Kyle) Chen. They split and ended the business at the start of 2007, starting up two new businesses:
Kai's site: http://kaidomain.com/
Kyle's site: http://www.dealextreme.com/
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Thanks everyone - you guys are great!!! I will try to keep digging too as I would love to have a whole load of info with me when I report this. The first transaction on my paypal a/c is actually in some Asian language. I had a strange feeling about the whole situation, but paypal were real quick to dismiss the connection - which is how I found out the transactions were supposedly from Quebec (who knows if that is even the truth though ?!?).
I bought the stuff directly from the Deal Extreme website, so this transaction has nothing to do with ebay. I just went there to vent for two reasons - 1. there are a lot of paypal users there, and 2. I needed to vent somewhere as I really couldn't believe the predicament I was in.
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Letsee PP weasle out of this one!!!!
Are talking about monman?
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I would imagine PP to stand for PayPal.
I understand that Monman has shares in eBay, and is reluctant to admit that eBay ever get things wrong. I can understand why he has this reluctance. Yes.
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Letsee PP weasle out of this one!!!!
Are talking about monman?
"Letsee PP weasle out of this one!!!!" was a post from Tello on this site...he also has an issue with paypal at the moment he's trying to resolve...
This is his thread...http://www.ozroundtable.com/index.php?topic=805.0
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I understand that Monman has shares in eBay, and is reluctant to admit that eBay ever get things wrong. I can understand why he has this reluctance. Yes.
Now who's fit to be sent to the norti corner?
Come join us, Dearie; you've earned it!
(PP=paypoo)
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Sorry - I think of Monman as Peepeed (that was the pp connection I made) and was thinking about how he is like a dog with a bone with paypal and ebay never being in the wrong. It is even my fault the bank ripped me off cause I didn't check out the other 233,567* financial institutions for lower fees.
*figure slightly exaggerated.
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Eventually there must come a time when PayPal cannot do the Pontius Pilate trick of washing their hands. Eventually someone has to say, "Er, this is our responsibility". And I'm not talking about the unfortunate members who've had to put up with customer service that's designed on the "stall and deny for as long as you can" principle.
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Oh, and I do plan on venturing out of this thread soon - lol :blush:
The Yibster and I are here for ya, anticipating your every vent, rant, rave and mood!!!! :wine:
And we're here to make sure they behave emselves !!!
Bris...Cupies referring to Tello ... I'm the innocent one that gets blamed when Tello is off the leash and run's amuck......
While I'm still in the spotlight, I gotta say: I still have a problem with Yib's post here. My counter-post was deferred to Siberia & that's fine, but I just gotta tell ya Bris: Believe half of what he says and suspect the other half as "The Gospel According to Yib"
There. I said it. I feel better now.
Carry on.
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Sorry - I think of Monman as Peepeed (that was the pp connection I made) and was thinking about how he is like a dog with a bone with paypal and ebay never being in the wrong. It is even my fault the bank ripped me off cause I didn't check out the other 233,567* financial institutions for lower fees.
*figure slightly exaggerated.
brisney.. the fault is fully and squarely Paypal's.. they are the one's that lack responsibility, I've always gotten my way with bank's in regards to unfair fee's...paypal is a totally different animal because they do not adhere to the same law's as other financial institutions... it sickens me to the stomach that they can get away with it....
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Brisney: you may have guessed by now Tello and me are sparing partners, your new here so don't think yib & tello are enemies, far from it, we were separated at birth and have recently found each other again.... the force is strong in our family... { so's the flatulence }...LOL
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I was adopted. Yib was kidnapped and forced into slavery until he found the internet. Life is good.
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Brisney: you may have guessed by now Tello and me are sparing partners, your new here so don't think yib & tello are enemies, far from it, we were separated at birth and have recently found each other again.... the force is strong in our family... { so's the flatulence }...LOL
I can vouch for the flatulence. I have heard heard on good authority, when Yib eats egg sandwiches, they cordone off the area around his desk at work....
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...TOPIC...
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Sorry countess. You can spank me if you like.... Hangs cute little ducky head..... Flutters little ducky eyelashes.....
Attempts to be good and be on topic:
Yes one has to be very careful with Paypal. I have only had one problem myself. I bought something overseas and paid via Paypal. They messed up and an item that should have cost me $54 ($60 + 10% discount) cost $90, because Paypal overdrew my bank account. I had enough funds in the bank account if combined with what I already had in Paypal... :vent:
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Sorry... not your fault Fluff, me and tello started it, countess has had her hands full with the terrible twins tonight :console:
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So shut up about it already! The hole is getting deeper.
:(
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Hi again Brisney...thanks for clarifying the way you purchased....Given Wheels' research, clearly you are not the only one experiencing this phenomenon......it's interesting though, there are two sellers on Ebay, who have direct links back to Dealextreme...and we're looking into those...there's also a Brazillian and Hong Kong site under different names but with the exact same Hong Kong Address right down to the unit number (Must be a HUGE unit).....and then there are complaints from Germany regarding this dx mob.
I'll check with the person researching that end of things and of course Admin, and find out if it's OK to start posting this info so Brisney has something even chunkier to work with. Maybe together we can join the dots.
We're starting to think this is a fairly big scam given the numerous links worldwide, back to dx, and the exact same address in Hong Kong. After all, Immigration have recently busted a massive H/Kong based credit card scam entering the country at Sydney Airport, so why should we think it isn't happening online?
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---->Board Policy Violation!<-----
**************BUMP**************
:yess:
:wine:
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We're still looking but these are the links so far....it seems that it could be a dropshipping operation worldwide...let's see what others make of this info.....
**************************************************************
2009-05-07 - http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22353748-DealExtreme-replacement-site
DealExtreme replacement site?
Are there any good alternate sites like dealextreme.com that you shop at? I ask because lately at DX there are more and more complaints on the forums about people not receiving their orders and other complaints and it looks like DX is going down the tubes.
***************************************************************
Fake Goods - Same Address as DX, but using Ebay ID.
http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:v6ygWZRkmp0J:sosfakeflash.wordpress.com/report-a-fake/+%22Room+225-226,+Block+B,+Focal+Industrial+Centre%22&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au
Andrey said
April 10, 2009 at 19:55
1. eBay item number: 260380272399
2. eBay Seller id: shall0906
3. Your eBay Buyer id: xxxxx
Fake flash seller! Real capacity of received SDHC card in 4 (!) times smaller than claimed. 2Gb instead of 8Gb.
Seller address:
WD(s8/1)
Air mail Department. AUCA
Room 225-226, Block B, Focal Industrial Centre, 21 Man Lok Street, Hung Hom, Kowloon, Hong Kong
****************************************************************
etemall: Different name, same address as DX for returns:
http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:NvO9VGArbOkJ:www.etemall.com/contact/Frequently%2520Asked%2520Questions.htm+%22Room+225-226,+Block+B,+Focal+Industrial+Centre%22,+%22EBAY%22&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au
Not satisfied with a product or shipment?
Here is a quick checklist if you are returning unused and unopened products for refunding (applicable to return type B above):
1. The items must be unused and unopened.
2. Contact us via this link, indicating you want to return a product: http://www.etemall.com
3. A customer service staff will inform you the actual shipping costs incurred (the non-refundable portion).
4. Proceed and send the returning items to the following address. Note that the returning package must be postmarked within 30 calendar days of delivery (*see above for definition of delivery date):
TO: etemall
Room 225-226, Block B, Focal Industrial Centre
21 Man Lok street
Hung Hom, Kowloon
Hong Kong
**************************************************************
HK marketplace: http://hkmarketplace.com/conditions.php
Note their address also:
* HK MARKETPLACE
* Room 225-226, Block B Focal lndustrial Centre 21 Man Lok street,
Hung Hom
Kowloon Hong Kong
**************************************************************
Portal OfertaTotal is a sales channel MP4/MP5/MP6/MP7/MP8/MP9/M10 Phones and accessories.
All products displayed on the site are sold directly from the manufacturer.
We work with the system "Drop-Ship," in which the product is shipped directly from our distribution center in Hong Kong to the address informed by the client. go on...guess where?
General Data from: DealExtreme
Room 225-226, Block B, Focal Industrial Center
21 Man Lok street
Hung Hom, Kowloon
Hong Kong
http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.ofertatotal.com.br/interna.php%3Fcod%3D13333&ei=_FCjStOAKtGSkAWW7aHqDw&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=9&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3DRoom%2B225-226,%2BBlock%2BB,%2BFocal%2BIndustrial%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D20
***************************************************************
ellen_2009 - Ebay German Seller apparently
http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://cgi.ebay.de/Macbook--13-Zoll-Akku-A1185-SONDERPREIS_W0QQitemZ180403789146QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ20090904%3FIMSfp%3DTL090904205007r31019&ei=aUajSuDxFI_6kAWO3oXbDw&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=6&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522Room%2B225-226,%2BBlock%2BB,%2BFocal%2BIndustrial%2BCentre%2522,%2B%2522EBAY%2522%26hl%3Den
And once again....Note the address:
Business Return instruction
For consumers, the following "cancellation and withdrawal episodes is" You may cancel your contract within 14 days without giving reasons in writing (eg letter, e-mail) or by returning the goods to Hong Kong as supplied. The period begins on the date of receipt of the goods and in written notice informing you of Use. The revocation period is sufficient to send the revocation or thing. The revocation must be sent to:
DealExtreme
Room 225-226, Block B, Focal Industrial Centre Room 225-226, Block B, Focal Industrial Center
A German listing translated...Seller has 91.4 % and registered as a private seller...mmmmmhhhhh!!!
****************************************************************
This looks Worldwide, and we're still looking....stand by and feel free to comment on these links to dx and add any more leads you find on this issue. Let's all be like one famous Aussie democrat and 'keep the barstards honest'.
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Thanks for that.
Here are some non-ebay ones I found;
I think someone mentioned this one earlier in the thread:
Greetings,
Was wondering if anyone has had any fraud activity on their paypal account right after ordering something from DealExtreme? I've had two charges on my Paypal account show up on the same day (today actually) after making an order with DealExtreme about a week and a half ago. I've ordered from DX before without any probs . just can't remember if I used my Paypal account at checkout.
This may be a major coincidence but I'm suspicious/paranoid/etc.
http://forums.slickdeals.net/showthread.php?sduid=0&t=1454637
Posted by: The UnDoug
Date: April 27, 2009 09:06PM
Dealextreme is the company that I had ordered from just before my credit card got "hacked". Might have had nothing to do with them, but they seemed like the likely culprit...I didn't realize prior to ordering that they were in China, and when I realized it, it made me a bit concerned.
I *did* get the items I ordered (two separate orders), but they did take quite a long time (3 or 4 weeks). The tracking info never really got updated, and still said the same thing it had for two weeks on the day that it finally arrived.
Let us know if you suddenly do end up getting the items.
http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:ePplcFAab-kJ:forums.macresource.com/read.php%3F1,719847,719847+dealextreme+paypal+fraud&cd=25&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au
Posted by: davec
Date: April 27, 2009 10:14PM
It certainly might be a coincidence, but the credit card account I use for my on-line purchases was hijacked one week after a purchase at DealExtreme. It was my first purchase from DealExtreme. Security lapses with other vendors could have led to the hijacked account, but the experience does make me hesitant about ordering from DealExtreme again.
Dave
http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:ePplcFAab-kJ:forums.macresource.com/read.php%3F1,719847,719847+dealextreme+paypal+fraud&cd=25&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au
Posted by: kj
Date: April 28, 2009 03:22PM
Same as for undoug and davec, I had credit card fraud after ordering from them. I can't see dealextreme being worth the risk. There are reputable places to buy the same stuff, for not much more, although they may be a little harder
http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:ePplcFAab-kJ:forums.macresource.com/read.php%3F1,719847,719847+dealextreme+paypal+fraud&cd=25&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au
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Hi Brisney...we'll keep looking for links on this one and post them here OK?.....It seems bizarre that there are so many worldwide entities, all leading back to this one dealer, and that dealer is attracting numerous complaints and fraud suspicions left, right and centre.
You should still put in complaints about this, because if others are suggesting the same thing, then it could be more widespread than just DX. My concern is that the safety issue is with Paypal itself, and that places so many at risk it's not funny.
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This get's better and better....Paypal is involved with Deal Extreme, in fact, they are promoting them?
PayPal launches online shopping destination with major Asian retailers
July 30, 2009 - 3:37pm | author: Petrony | News | Payment systems
PayPal launches online shopping destination with major Asian retailers
An eBay online payments subsidiary PayPal has launched Asia Mall, an online shopping store that provides cash-conscious consumers with deals and special offers. Shopping via Asia Mall customers will be able to make purchases at major online retailers in Singapore, Australia, Hong Kong, Japan and Taiwan.
Retailers will be offering a range of promotional offers to PayPal customers, from 20 percent discounts to free warranties and free cross-border delivery. Shoppers can browse through different categories on the site which includes online health and beauty store, Sasa.com, and the leading online gadget store, DealExtreme.
“Online shoppers today are looking for choice, convenience and bargains and will happily purchase from overseas retailers to satisfy these needs,” said Farhad Irani, Vice President of Asia Pacific, PayPal.
“Our Asia Mall offers Asian merchants the opportunity to connect with millions of these shoppers and drive cross-border trade for their business.”
http://www.ecommerce-journal.com/news/17136_paypal_launches_online_shopping_destination_with_major_asian_retailers?drgn=1
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I rang Qld Police to ask what is the best way to make a fraud report and apprently they don't take police reports for crimes outside of their jurisdiction (ie. Qld). Given the person was in Quebec then they weren't interested
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Brisneygirl, don't give up!
I would lodge complaints with the Banking Ombudsman, both against PayPal and your bank. If PayPal have admitted that the transactions were fraudulent then your bank should be refunding you the dishonour fees. Once you have completed the forms I would ring your bank (again) and let them know that you have lodged the complaints and ask to speak to someone with the authority to sort it out. If you don't get any satisfaction over the phone, make an appointment at your local branch, take all your paperwork and sit there until they refund your fees. Your local branch manager usually has the power to waive account fees.
http://www.fos.org.au/centric/home_page/resolving_disputes/how_to_lodge_a_dispute/how_to_lodge_a_dispute_banking_finance.jsp
https://www.bfso.org.au/ABIOWeb/ABIOWebsite.nsf/CComplaints?openform
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That doesn't surprise me...I think you should try the Fed Police, but don't forget to mention that the issue involves your paypal account being hacked after shopping with dealextreme. Your Paypal ACcount is in Australia, not in Quebec. You are not so much trying to get anything from them, because it will only be through a BFSO complaint that you'll get Paypal to refund the fees.
Your contact with Fed Police is to simply put in a 'written' complaint regarding your concerns over paypal hacking after shopping at that site, so Fed Police are aware that it could be a scam. I think Scamwatch is another site, or you can go directly to the Fed Police site.
Secondly...Have you contacted Paypal yet? If not, you need to lodge a complaint with them first.
When you lodge your complaint with Paypal, advise them of the factors that lead you to believe that your account was hacked after shopping on dealextreme (a company they actually promote?) sheesh.....no wonder they brushed off any suggestion of dealextreme being the security issue eh?. Make sure you address the various fob offs they use to blame the victim..i.e .that you didn't follow links, nobody uses your computer, account etc, etc....
Ask Paypal in your complaint for an objective investigation of how your account was hacked and where the funds went to ....advise them of your complaint to Fed police in writing. Point being, it can't just happen with no record of someone actually accessing your account and when?. At the very least, get them to confirm that your account was indeed hacked and what they intend to do about it in terms of future security. Also then set out what your bank has said, and their advice that Paypal should repay the balance of the fees.
Naturally, as I said, they'll decline to repay you and tell you that they are investigating but that they won't give you any information re: privacy...that's more bullshit....you need to demand to know whether your account with Paypal is safe, or vulnerable to further hacking...they should decline to reassure you of that too, other than some blurb about the latest security features.....you know the drill.
At that stage, you'll have what you need to lodge the FSO complaint. Your main points with that one is that Paypal don't seem to be objectively investigating how your account was hacked, and as such, you have concerns about the security of their product. Secondly, you should advise the advice and outcome your bank offered, and request the refund of the remaining $70.00.
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I should add that either way, if the Ombudsman believes you should be refunded, either your bank or Paypal will be advised of that obligation. One or the other has to refund, hence, I'm sure you'll get your money back. However, FSO, require that you attempt to resolve the issue first with paypal and doing so in writing is the only way to go.
Anyone got Paypal's current consumer complaint link for written complaints?
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Contact the Computer Crime Investigation Unit (details here (http://www.police.qld.gov.au/programs/crimePrevention/eCrime/internet/report/03/overseas.htm). Ask whether it's possible to investigate this in a wider context, since there's a lot more going on than your own situation. If it's seen as part of a widespread and large-scale fraud involving a lot of money worldwide, it may be possible to get a fraud investigation rolling...
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Thanks again for the advice, links and help - it is greatly appreciated.
I called Paypal again!! and have been given the following email address to lodge a written complaint: aucr@paypal.com
And this bit is GOLD - I asked what investigations Paypal do around individual cases of fraud and she said none, because there are so many cases. But she assured me they would cooperate with the police. Hmmm, maybe if it was paid a little more attention there might not be so much!!!!!
I was wanting to include the police report no. in the complaint to the Ombudsman, but I might just proceed and include the fact that I have contacted Qld Police.
I got a letter from CBA today stating they have refunded half of my fees and believe Paypal should cover the rest. So I now have all of the paper work from Paypal and CBA to proceed.
I will post my complaint letters here for review too (hope you don't mind).
I am going to make 60 Mins etc aware, cause even if they don't do anything this time, they will if they here the same story enough.
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Cudo's to you brisney....it's not about the money....it's the principle....
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I will post my complaint letters here for review too (hope you don't mind).
Your complaint letters - you have a perfect right to post them. (It only becomes problematic when people post private communications from others.)
You have the right attitude, Brisneygirl - gutsy, determined and not put off.
I dislike organised online fraud - it's cowardly as well as cheating. Something smells rotten in the state of DealExtreme. If there is something fraudulent going on, it needs to be uncovered.
I asked what investigations Paypal do around individual cases of fraud and she said none, because there are so many cases. But she assured me they would cooperate with the police.
- this is bizarre, isn't it? "We don't investigate cases of fraud because there are so many?" It's like a policeman not investigating a murder because blimey... there are so many...
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They cant investigate because their "invesigation team" is a figment .....all they have is a selection of generic emails which they choose from and send to the relevant party's involved and quite often they select an irrelevant email
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G'day Smee.
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hello Birdman