Oz Round Table

The Oz Round Table boards => The Round Table => Topic started by: Liisa-Sx on July 10, 2009, 01:17:53 PM

Title: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: Liisa-Sx on July 10, 2009, 01:17:53 PM
read and weep, it seems this sort of fraudulent behaviour is still occuring, when is ebay going to put some checks in place to assure that all contact details are correct, the poor woman is getting no help either, yes it is naive of many to believe the "dont pay by paypal bank deposit only" on large ticket items, this needs addressing.

http://forums.ebay.com.au/topic/Community-Spirit/Not-On-Ebay/600119847 (http://forums.ebay.com.au/topic/Community-Spirit/Not-On-Ebay/600119847)
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *CountessA* on July 10, 2009, 02:52:26 PM
Lisa, is it at all possible for you to copy the thread here within the quotation marks to indicate it's quoting what that thread says?

Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: RiffRaff on July 10, 2009, 05:08:58 PM
Hi Liisa. In this case I don't think all the varification in the world would have prevented this persons problem. The seller is a business operator and has provided a legitimate phone number. They offer credit card facilities and PayPal. I think this is more a case of a seller unable to deliver the goods in a reasonable time frame or they simply don't have the funds to supply the goods.

One can only hope that the buyer followed eBays advice and used PayPal.
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: Liisa-Sx on July 10, 2009, 06:25:25 PM
Quote from: RiffRaff on July 10, 2009, 05:08:58 PM
Hi Liisa. In this case I don't think all the varification in the world would have prevented this persons problem. The seller is a business operator and has provided a legitimate phone number. They offer credit card facilities and PayPal. I think this is more a case of a seller unable to deliver the goods in a reasonable time frame or they simply don't have the funds to supply the goods.

One can only hope that the buyer followed eBays advice and used PayPal.

I agree in the OP's case Riffy but this one-



"I have had no communication from them and no reponse to emails at this stage.

I did pull details and tried to ring and got a bit of a shock. I don't think the details are correct and if they are she sure works at a strange place. The answering service greeted me with "Welcome to the Meet, Meet Conference call. Please enter you conference access number"

Hmmmmm. Should I be thinking she works in a strange place or that she has provided false details?"


I should have been clearer lol, I mean these sellers that sell very expensive goods, that refuse paypal, dupe some poor buyer into paying DD, and have false contact details.

And all the help the OP, naive as she may be got was -

"OP-you sent $800 to a seller with no feedback.

ohh dear"

the old format Ebay boards would have been full of help for naive purchasers in this predicament. recently I have seen a surge of similar complaints IE: Buyer makes purchase pays for item via DD as seller refuses PP, buyer never hears another thing, pulls details and they are all fake, one woman rang the number they gave as a registered phone for that particular ID and got a hairdressing salon.

I just have a gut feeling that some unscrupulous sellers know ther eis less help available on the boards now, and take advantage of it among other things.

I also did a search on people stating "No paypal please" etc in their listings and they are growing in alarming numbers.
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: RiffRaff on July 10, 2009, 06:51:22 PM
Liisa., I think that person should be directed to the eBay 'Buying' help board, rather than posting it on CS. They may indeed already have posted their problem on a help board. That person is an experienced poster.

On the other "No paypal please" issue. I think you will find in most cases it's more to do with paying fees than skipping off with the buyers money. If a seller is going to scam someone, it makes no difference to the scammer if the money comes to them through PayPal or a bank account. Both payment options are equally traceable by the police.

The difference is that one will refund the buyer and the other won't.

Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: tellomon on July 10, 2009, 08:42:11 PM
read and weep,

I got the 'read' thing "Down". It's the 'weep' thang that's got ME down..
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *CountessA* on July 10, 2009, 09:01:08 PM
I am truly sorry - I can't really comment without knowing the OP's post and the details, and I dare not risk reading the thread unless I want a migraine.

I could TRY clicking onto the link and just hitting "View Source"...
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: Golden Silence on July 11, 2009, 09:19:13 AM
Here you go Countess...

(The OP hasn't been back as yet since the original post)


Quote
I bid, won, paid for the scooter, noq the ebayer is not listed on ebay anymore. however, i got there online store, and phone number. tried to ring them, and it is just an answering machine.

how am i able to get through to them.

i paid for a brand new scooter from gwheels_com_au

Responses:

1.
Quote
how did you pay for it and how long ago?
 
 
2.
Quote
I see you have left Negative Feedback already. Did you pay via Paypal?
 

3.
Quote
A seller with no feedback must always be checked out when selling an expensive items, "pull" the sellers details and telephone now.
The seller mentioned using PayPal but had this:

"If making payment via paypal please allow 1 week extra for funds to clear" That is suspect.

"Postage and handling $99.00" what does that mean (for a scooter) with no other information.

The grammar and spelling was poor, another reason to check, where $800 is involved.

How did you pay?
 
4.
Quote
I didn't spend nearly as much as you tienslola but I am chasing a seller.

I have had no communication from them and no reponse to emails at this stage.

I did pull details and tried to ring and got a bit of a shock. I don't think the details are correct and if they are she sure works at a strange place. The answering service greeted me with "Welcome to the Meet, Meet Conference call. Please enter you conference access number"

Hmmmmm. Should I be thinking she works in a strange place or that she has provided false details?


5.
Quote
OP-you sent $800 to a seller with no feedback. 

ohh dear 

 
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *CountessA* on July 11, 2009, 12:02:18 PM
1. The transaction occurred on 17th June.
2. We don't know how soon the buyer paid after the auction ended.
3. We do know the buyer joined eBay on 17th June. We have no information about whether he/she had previously been an eBayer under a different name, so we must assume on the basis of the evidence that this was his/her first transaction on eBay.
4. The buyer left negative feedback on 10th July, 3 weeks after the purchase.
5. The buyer said she contacted the seller through their online website. I assume he/she means www.gwheels.com.au. There is a 1800 number listed on that website.
6. Assuming that the eBay seller and the gwheels.com.au seller are the same (not a stretch by any means! I'd accept it as a given), the buyer must not have read this:
Quote
Please allow up to 3-4 weeks for delivery of your items.
We apologise for any inconvenience, we are working to improve this.
- link (http://www.gwheels.com.au/store/index.php?route=information/information&information_id=6)
And on the eBay listing, the seller states "Will usually post within 10 business days of receiving cleared payment". This indicates to me that buyers from this seller should not expect fast delivery, and that all in all, it's probably best to expect delivery between 3-4 weeks, just as the seller's website states.

It hasn't been four weeks. It's only just gone three weeks from the time the bidding ended (and we don't know whether the buyer paid a few days later, which would make the time even shorter). The buyer may well have given a negative too quickly, but I see this transaction as a recipe for disaster, since both the buyer and the seller are new to eBay. The seller has been registered on eBay since 23 May 2009. Link (http://myworld.ebay.com.au/gwheels_com_au/).
7. The buyer says the seller isn't on eBay anymore. That is not the case. The seller is not NARU. The buyer is mistaken when he/she says the seller is "noq [sic] listed on eBay anymore".
8. It seems that the buyer didn't realise he/she could obtain the contact details for a seller through requesting the seller's details from eBay via this page (http://shop.ebay.com.au/ebayadvsearch/__W0QQ_advZ1QQ_dmdZ1QQ_ipgZ50QQ_sofindtypeZ9QQ_sopZ1?_rdc=1).
9. The seller hasn't mentioned the method of payment, but this is presumably a registered business (see below - I have to admit I can't locate the seller's ABN but this is mitigated by the fact that the seller accepts AMEX, since Amex acceptance is only available to businesses) able to accept payment by credit card (Visa, MasterCard AND Amex). PayPal is offered both on the website and on eBay. The very fact that the seller has a merchant account able to accept Amex indicates to me that this is not a shonky fly-by-night seller.
10. Whether or not the buyer paid using PayPal is irrelevant in this instance. Absolutely and positively irrelevant. This purchase was NOT COVERED by the PayPal Protection Policy. I thought this was well-known - scooters do not fall under the PayPal Protection Policy and are not eligible for any protection from PayPal. Scooters are considered vehicles and fall under VPP (Vehicle Purchase Protection) (http://pages.ebay.com.au/motors/Vehicle_Purchase_Protection.html).
11. If the buyer has not made any attempt to contact the seller via the contact details provided by eBay, the buyer can't proceed with a claim. However, let's assume the buyer does now try to do so, having "pulled" the seller's contact details as per the link in my point 8 above. If the buyer is not able to find a resolution to the problem after doing this, he/she can lodge a claim - link (http://pages.ebay.com.au/motors/VPP_claims_procedure.html).
12. I'm not sure the purchase is actually eligible, though. This is because the scooter may not have been in Australia at the time of the purchase. (It's only a suspicion, not a certainty, though. I base my concern on the delay mentioned by the seller. 3-4 weeks for delivery suggests drop-shipping to me. And unfortunately, "If the car is located overseas and the seller promises to ship it to you, it will not be covered by Vehicle Purchase Protection". If this concern is not borne out, the buyer is fortunate.
13. The VPP makes it clear the buyer's acted much too hastily, though. A claim is considered upon "the Seller's failure to deliver the Eligible Vehicle to You (where You have paid the Purchase Price for the Eligible Vehicle to the Seller) after the expiration of a period of 14 days following the Delivery Date". It hasn't been 14 days after the delivery date. In the case of non-delivery, the buyer has 90 DAYS AFTER THE TRANSACTION in which to lodge the claim.
14. If the buyer paid using credit card, the buyer needs to initiate a chargeback by his/her credit card provider. "If You paid for the Eligible Vehicle using a credit card You must have already contacted your credit card issuer and sought reimbursement from the issuer before making a claim under the Master Policy. Where your credit card issuer provides a buyer protection program, You will be required to provide proof to Marsh that You have sought reimbursement from your credit card issuer and that your claim was denied by the credit card issuer before making a claim under the Master Policy."
15. One problem that I see from the buyer's swiftness in issuing a negative is that the seller now has a -1 feedback. This means that the seller cannot sell on eBay, really. It's not that there's something physically stopping him from selling, but the fact is that the VPP does not cover purchases where the seller has a feedback of less than zero. The buyer has effectively destroyed the seller's ability to sell through eBay, which is a shame if the seller isn't dodgy. I am a little concerned that I can't find the seller's ABN. It's not listed on the seller's website, and it doesn't appear with the business.gov.au site. It could be that it's such a recently issued ABN that it doesn't yet appear there. It is worth the buyer contacting business.gov.au to find out.

In essence, I think the buyer took quite a risk. Being a new eBayer and buying from a new eBayer - could be an awful mess, as this has turned out to be. However, the buyer also acted hastily and without using the resources eBay makes available - i.e., getting the seller's contact details.

I hope the situation doesn't deteriorate. I think the buyer has not given the seller long enough to deliver. I wouldn't have bought under those delivery conditions, nor would I ever buy a vehicle through eBay (especially sight unseen!), but it's too late to cry over spilt petrol now. I would advise the buyer to

1. get in touch with the seller using the contact details available through eBay, and hopefully have a courteous conversation to find out what is happening,
2. if the contact details are false, immediately proceed to initiate a chargeback if payment was via credit card,
3. if payment was not via credit card, initiate a claim via VPP once it's 2 weeks past the delivery date and no scooter has arrived,
4. contact Fair Trading and discuss with them the correct procedure if it turns out that the business does not have an ABN.

If the scooter arrives within the anticipated timeframe, the buyer should contact eBay to remove the negative since it impacts on the seller's ability to sell. If the seller is dodgy, all bets are off, of course, and the negative would be deserved. I think it's too hasty a negative, myself.

But definitely... the buyer should try to resolve this with the seller, and if the scooter doesn't arrive, as long as the buyer has evidence of payment (by cheque, by money order, by bank deposit or transfer, by PayPal, by credit card), there is the chance of being reimbursed. The highest chance for reimbursement is if the buyer paid by credit card. If the buyer paid by any other method, he/she should be aware that the VPP does not cover the first $200 (AUD) of the purchase.
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *CountessA* on July 11, 2009, 02:44:02 PM
By the way, Golden Silence, thank you very much for copying and pasting the thread!

And Liisa, thank you for posting this. It worries me that new buyers are not aware that they're not covered by PayPal when they buy scooters, and that they're equally not aware that they will never receive the reimbursement of the first two hundred dollars if they're eligible for reimbursement under the VPP. This ought to be spelled out unambiguously so that the buyer is fully informed before going ahead with the purchase.

It's information that I believe needs to be highly accessible. Buyers should not need to click several links and download a pdf file of the terms and conditions. It should be "in your face" information.

It's worrying.
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: Golden Silence on July 11, 2009, 04:25:55 PM
You're welcome Countessa  :)
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *CountessA* on July 11, 2009, 06:16:05 PM
Cupie, I do not think the seller is a shonk. We can certainly check, just to be on the safe side, but I do think the buyer, through inexperience, reacted too quickly. (I also think the buyer was unbelievably naïve in buying from a seller without any feedback! This is a very new seller on eBay, and indications are that the seller only recently became a merchant. The seller's website hasn't been up long.)

Re AMEX - yes, you have to be an Australian business to be able to accept AMEX cards. The fees are quite high. (I don't accept AMEX myself, but I did look into it.) American Express will require "a copy of your Business Name Registration or Australian Company number certificate" as well as a number of other forms of identification - to wit:


          What are the application criteria?

Your business (eg. corporation, partnership or sole proprietor) should be based in Australia. If you are a travel agent, you must have a valid Travel Agent Licence.

In all, if the seller truly does accept Amex as stated their website and their eBay listings, there is no reason at this stage (based upon a buyer who - well, who I think acted too quickly) to think the seller is dodgy.

Mind you, I do have qualms about the delivery time. Were I buying from this seller, I'd be asking them before purchasing whether the scooters are in Australia, or whether they're being shipped from overseas. I do suspect they are drop-shipping but aren't aware that they have GOT TO STATE in their eBay listing that they are drop-shipping.
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: cueperkins on July 11, 2009, 06:56:42 PM
Who knows...I'll bet all those EBS victims tried to reassure themselves as they waited, tapping fingers on desk, wondering ......

I admit I haven't checked it out....but if the Amex is in fact 'genuine'...then one assumes that at least the trader is verified stringently by someone.....by defacto of course....lmao......but I'm also assuming the Amex is advertised on their website?

...how does one check that any given websites merchant facility is real?  Is there somewhere you can look them up to see if they are in fact registered merchants? or not?
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *CountessA* on July 11, 2009, 07:03:56 PM
No, no such way of checking on whether or not a seller is a merchant. Ipso facto, if you're able to use your card to make a purchase, they must be a merchant. This is because of the whole process of being able to access someone's card - it has to go through the seller's website e-commerce facility, the payment gateway, to the card provider, receive a "success" result, send that result back through the gateway, and then to the seller's website e-commerce facility.

There wouldn't be much point in falsely claiming to be able to process a type of card payment - that process simply wouldn't happen.
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *CountessA* on July 14, 2009, 01:47:59 PM
Has anyone been in touch with the buyer (tiensola) to see whether there's been a good resolution to the problem about which he/she posted?
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *Brum6y* on July 14, 2009, 03:19:40 PM
Following relates to VISA/MasterCard - don't know if it applies to Amex, but from the little I have encountered, I've not seen anything against the idea that it could - especially with Amex marketing really pushing the way they do. (I have VISA and MasterCard accounts. Recently I have had both transferred to new accounts (new numbers - what a pain!) PLUS an Amex card for both of them - whether I wanted them or not.)

Quote
if you're able to use your card to make a purchase, they must be a merchant....it has to go through the seller's website e-commerce facility

A seller can have a merchant facility, without it being linked into an e-commerce gateway. Payment can be made via MOTO (Mail Order/Telephone Order) where numbers are keyed into the terminal or swiping the buyer's card for a pick-up sale. The twist here is that a dodgy seller could use that information to pay for something for themselves off a third party offering MOTO - and if they did so for an amount the same as the original buyer's purchase, the original buyer would not be suspicious, especially as the name on your credit card statement could be a legal entity bearing no resemblance to the name or geography of the seller from whom you purchased.

Awkward, I know, but it is one way someone could pretend to have a merchant facility.  (They might use it to pay off a lay-by for a quad bike!)


Quote
Who gets a merchant facility without proof of business registration

From my experience, anyone can get a merchant facility - but if they don't have a registered business name, it MUST be set up under their personal name.
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *CountessA* on July 14, 2009, 03:27:02 PM
Quote
A seller can have a merchant facility, without it being linked into an e-commerce gateway.
- Yes, agreed. It's only when it's an online merchant facility that it must be linked to a payment gateway.
Quote
Payment can be made via MOTO (Mail Order/Telephone Order) where numbers are keyed into the terminal or swiping the buyer's card for a pick-up sale.  The twist here is that a dodgy seller could use that information to pay for something for themselves off a third party offering MOTO - and if they did so for an amount the same as the original buyer's purchase, the original buyer would not be suspicious
- True. The seller would be an idiot to do this, though, because the buyer would find his item not arriving, and initiate a chargeback. The credit card company would investigate and find the card number had been used by a different individual with the goods being sent to a different address than the cardholder's, and the person who made the transaction would be investigated both for credit card fraud and for misuse of merchant facilities. His business account would be closed down (including his merchant account) and he'd be in the Vesuvius with the police investigating him for fraud.
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *Brum6y* on July 14, 2009, 03:39:37 PM
My MOTO example was off-the-cuff and not researched - but I'd bet you could find someone silly enough to try it.

My real points were in regard to the incorrect association of legitimacy of a business to the existance of a merchant facility.
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *Yibida* on July 14, 2009, 03:41:55 PM
Sorry off topic...brumby I have another avatar for you.... he runs!!

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *Brum6y* on July 14, 2009, 03:53:28 PM
Thanks Yib.

FYI - he's no relative. Just check the nose.
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *Yibida* on July 14, 2009, 03:54:48 PM
He could come in hand for you on the last say....LOL
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: cueperkins on July 14, 2009, 03:57:41 PM
Boys.... :scold: at least give warning first.... :hijack:

Yib...you're sparkling.....haven't been playing with Uranium again have you?
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *Yibida* on July 14, 2009, 04:03:03 PM
Quote from: *Cupie* on July 14, 2009, 03:57:41 PM
Boys.... :scold: at least give warning first.... :hijack:

Yib...you're sparkling.....haven't been playing with Uranium again have you?


Hi Cupie I did give warning...I said "Sorry off topic..."  before I started .... I'll go now and attend to my plans for world domination....
(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv277/area_51_bucket/marvin.gif)

Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *CountessA* on July 14, 2009, 04:19:27 PM
Brumby, if anyone can get a merchant facility without having an ABN, it's changed since I first applied for a merchant facility. And not for the better... Can you post me some links about that? Or PM me?
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *CountessA* on July 14, 2009, 04:28:46 PM
I will split this topic, as the subject of quantum computers is a highly fascinating one and deserves its own thread.
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *Brum6y* on July 14, 2009, 04:53:18 PM
Quote from: countessa on July 14, 2009, 04:19:27 PM
Brumby, if anyone can get a merchant facility without having an ABN, it's changed since I first applied for a merchant facility. And not for the better... Can you post me some links about that? Or PM me?

I can't remember about the ABN, since it was not me that acquired the merchant facility - but the person who did DID have one.  I am thinking it would have been required, but can't say for certain.

The discrimination between a business NAME and a business NUMBER is probably more a matter of relevant terminology.

The ABN would offer some formal record through which you could investigate.
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: cueperkins on July 14, 2009, 05:02:35 PM
Hi Brumby...the ABN is something that is not required by any business until they get to $75,000.00 per annum turnover...in the interim...a business name yields a BRN or Business Registration Number......I was asking whether that suffices for a merchant facility as a stand alone verification...you have to give your name, address and DOB to register a business, so it might be possible.  Again who knows?

If they don't even require a BRN....then what?...interesting to look into
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *CountessA* on July 14, 2009, 05:28:24 PM
Amex require either a Business Name Registration or Australian Company number certificate. Other supporting information is required.

To accept Visa and MasterCard, I had to supply my ABN, various forms of ID, etc., etc., to my bank who set up the business account and enabled my acceptance of those two cards.

I'd have had to pay additional costs to accept Amex and Diners Club, and for what I do, it's not worth it.

The conclusion about these merchant accounts is... someone with a merchant account, set up to accept credit cards such as Visa and MasterCard, will have had to supply a copy of the business name registration, the company number, etc. They will also have had to supply various proofs of ID.

It's not impossible for a company planning to defraud people to have all of this in place, but it would need to be a major fraud with a huge payoff to justify the trouble. It would be harder to pull off in Australia than in America or Russia or a great many other counties with different banking laws, consumer protection, checks and balances, and so on.
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *Brum6y* on July 14, 2009, 06:02:21 PM
A business name registration is not necessary for a Visa/MasterCard merchant facility.

Without a registered business name you can still have a facility - but it must be under your own name.

If you want your merchant facility under a business name, then you must have the name registered.  Having the name of your business on your ABN registration does NOT count, it must be a separate registration of the business name itself. 

Only registration of a business name gives you any form of protection for the name itself - unless, of course, it is also used as a trade mark - in which case other provisions come into play.  (If we want to get further into this - we'd better suit up!  However, would it be a good or bad idea to set up something in the FAQ section about business startup issues?)
Title: Re: This is still going on When will Ebay be held accountable for fraudsters?
Post by: *CountessA* on July 14, 2009, 06:07:06 PM
Excellent idea, Brumby. This is clearly a thorny bramblebush with a lot of different requirements depending on circumstances, and it seems to be fast-changing too.