Oz Round Table

The Oz Round Table boards => The Round Table => Topic started by: ernest_price on March 06, 2011, 10:34:08 PM

Title: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: ernest_price on March 06, 2011, 10:34:08 PM: A guy bought a $20 router from me. Older 54G one but in perfect working condition.

I could tell from the start this wasn't going to be easy. He turned up on day 11 after sale and offered $10 instead of the $20. I said no - after about 10 mins he finally handed over the $20. Started immediately saying "this isn't rubbish, is it?". "no, it's not rubbish".

So later that night around 9:30 I get the first phone call. "It doesn't work with my ADSL, fix it for me".

So on that unbounded statement I tried for about 30 mins to no avail. He had [I think] nephew with him - wanted to change every setting without knowing what every setting was. In the end they were going to call their ISP to help with settings.

Then 2 nights later I get the first text message.. "your router is faulty i want my money back". Then a little while later "you sold me rubbish if I don get back my money I will leave u negative". Then 30 mins later the classic "It is not the oz way 2 deal with people. We deal the same way like B4".

I'd been out so just got to see the 2nd message when I got back - sent a text and offered a full refund and sent off the eBay cancel transaction notice.

That 3rd text though was seen by my wife and has totally freaked her out. The guy is newly arrived here in Australia - I'm hoping english is just not one of his strengths and what he means just hasn't translated very well.

No more selling IT items here - just had a few in a row here people buying stuff they have no idea how to install.
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: tellomon on March 06, 2011, 10:41:37 PM: Struth, Mate!
Better ya should offer them a free boat ride to ease their worried scheming mind...

:keelhaul: :pirateship: :foot:
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: Liisa-Sx on March 07, 2011, 01:10:35 AM: Quote from: ernest_price on March 06, 2011, 10:34:08 PM
A guy bought a $20 router from me. Older 54G one but in perfect working condition.

I could tell from the start this wasn't going to be easy. He turned up on day 11 after sale and offered $10 instead of the $20. I said no - after about 10 mins he finally handed over the $20. Started immediately saying "this isn't rubbish, is it?". "no, it's not rubbish".

So later that night around 9:30 I get the first phone call. "It doesn't work with my ADSL, fix it for me".

So on that unbounded statement I tried for about 30 mins to no avail. He had [I think] nephew with him - wanted to change every setting without knowing what every setting was. In the end they were going to call their ISP to help with settings.

Then 2 nights later I get the first text message.. "your router is faulty i want my money back". Then a little while later "you sold me rubbish if I don get back my money I will leave u negative". Then 30 mins later the classic "It is not the oz way 2 deal with people. We deal the same way like B4".

I'd been out so just got to see the 2nd message when I got back - sent a text and offered a full refund and sent off the eBay cancel transaction notice.

That 3rd text though was seen by my wife and has totally freaked her out. The guy is newly arrived here in Australia - I'm hoping english is just not one of his strengths and what he means just hasn't translated very well.

No more selling IT items here - just had a few in a row here people buying stuff they have no idea how to install.

Ernest, I am sorry to hear you have been having difficulties,

What was he implying with Then 30 mins later the classic "It is not the oz way 2 deal with people. We deal the same way like B4". ?

You sold him a product he clearly had no knowledge about using this is NOT your fault, providing the product was as described and functioning your obligation ends right there, unless you claimed you would provide ongoign tech support which you did not, IF it was not compatible with his system again this is NOT your fault, he was the one making an informed (supposedly) purchase, he had not liaised with you prior to purchase.

To be honest he sounded a little like he was already setting up a game plan from the moment he picked the item up "Is this item rubbish" so many buyers these days like to buy an item, falsely make a claim and keep the item and receive a refund, this is obtaining goods by deception and is against the law.

Clearly either he or his nephew were altering settings they had no clue about from what you have stated.

As it was a pick up item he has no recourse whatsoever and if he continues to threaten you could advise him very swiftly that the police WILL be alerted and do so.

A negative from someone who is clearly hell bent on some sort of retribution is sadly unavoidable given that eBay will not make feedback a level playing field for both buyers and sellers, do NOT forget to block this bidder from being able to purchase anything else from you with the intent of malicious bidding to further damage your feedback score.

DO NOT refund this guy unless he returns the router in the same working order as it was when sold, (and when he does have a friend with you prefereably a large male with a dog) DO NOT kowtow to a buyers bullying tactics, he wants you to play by his rules, now he must play by yours (and the law) for a refund, he does NOT get to keep/scam and item and receive a refund.

Lastly do NOT let fear of a "new arrival" colour your judgement, explain that in 'Oz' we do things with integrity.

Please keep us posted on the outcome.
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: *Brum6y* on March 07, 2011, 11:40:56 AM: One more word of caution I could add...

If you have someone hell bent on playing games, you might want to be careful if they try pushing for a response that will give them grounds for a complaint.

Let me give an example....

When I was doing some work on LPG conversions, the place had a board with keys for all the vehicles. This was located within the workshop area and, as such, is out of bounds to customers. One day I turned around to see a guy going through the keys, so I asked him what he was doing. He said he was looking for his keys. I informed him he was not allowed in the workshop and if he wanted his keys he should ask at reception, because I had no idea who he was or which keys were his.

He then started getting fired up and the boss came down and took over. The boss knew exactly what had happened because he overheard the start of the conversation, but this guy was going on about the inference that he was being called a thief. Now no-one called him a thief, but both I and then the boss tried to explain the security issue.

He started getting agitated, so I moved away to leave the boss to it - but he kept pushing and pushing ... then it suddenly dawned on me what he could be trying to do....

I'm certain he was trying to get someone - anyone - to make some statement that he could grab as a racist slur, so he could make them 'pay' for daring to 'challenge' him. Fishing for a response so he could play 'the victim'. Such an objective certainly fit the illogical extremes of his reaction.

He didn't get one.
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: *CountessA* on March 07, 2011, 12:10:38 PM: Hello, Ernest - it's good to see you again!

Hmm. You're right - from the start, this man was behaving improperly, as you've said. If he hadn't arranged (and asked for) an agreed-upon delay of 11 days, he was behaving without consideration. There are buyers on eBay who do behave like this, and they either don't understand it's not correct behaviour, or they don't care.

Secondly, again as you've said, he tried to negotiate the price after the sale. Again, bad behaviour.

As soon as he started with the "This isn't rubbish" rubbish, I think I'd have said, "I can see you're not really happy to go ahead with the purchase, so perhaps your best course would be to go through a cancellation."

But you were nice enough to go ahead with the sale. (You deserve a sainthood for this niceness.)

You then mention he began to use you as an unpaid tech support person. It wasn't your responsibility to "fix it" for him, when it's clear that the man had no idea what he was doing settings-wise and that this was not an issue with the router as such. Very difficult situation - you end up in the soup no matter what you do!

Then the messages... What IS it with people that they behave so rudely? A barrage of text messages within such a short period of time can certainly come across as harassment.

(Like you, I'm hoping that the man's English is just not good enough to speak politely.)

If he wants a refund (for a $20 router), well, it's annoying but you could see it coming, I suppose. Even though you did nothing wrong, one can almost always not deal with people like that, people so determined to blame you for their own lack of knowledge and with such rudeness.

I think - I hate to say it - but I think you'll be getting a negative from him no matter what. You can try to avoid it by giving him a refund, but in all fairness you deserve to have the router returned. But that's not the most important point...

The important point is that third message: "It is not the oz way 2 deal with people. We deal the same way like B4".

Who's "we"? What does he mean by "deal"? What does he mean by "B4"?

It's not an explicit threat, and I suppose it could mean he wants to be treated fairly as in bygone days... but because of his poor English and the use of text-speech, it does imply something other than that.

I think I'd see what happens with the offer to cancel the transaction and the offered full refund. If you receive any more rude communications from him after that, it would indicate possible ongoing problems, and at that time you could contact the police.

At this stage, I think it's a very rude and offensive man rather than a man who's going to go gunning for you.

But if you have ANY real concerns based on his attitude and body language when he was picking up the item from you, please don't take any risks. It's better to risk looking a bit foolish than a lot dead.
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: low-enghooi on March 07, 2011, 12:37:45 PM: "It is not the oz way 2 to deal with people. We deal the same way like B4 before".

Second sentence - "We" refer to the buyer. I think he is trying to say that is the way he speak to other seller and they (sellers) treat him nicely. This time he is not treated in the same nice way and he get confused. He probably think whatever he say people should treat him nicely (oz way).

Arr. If he is new arrival, ... Is he a Chinese man?

That is how I read it if it is important to understand what he meant here.
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: bnwt on March 07, 2011, 01:06:13 PM: can I suggest all future communication with this buyer is done via eBay messages

in the event he does leave negative feedback eBay will review the communication between you and he

I'd suggest you send him a message mentioning the text messages he sent you etc

in the worse case you always use this http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/policies/defamation.html (the hidden link)

if you follow the instructions eBay are obliged by Australian Law to remove the negative feedback
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: *Brum6y* on March 07, 2011, 01:08:18 PM: Yes, Low ... understanding what is actually meant is vitally important - so any contributions on that score would be welcome.

I understand that when expressing yourself via a language in which you are not fluent, translating words can be difficult enough, but the grammatical structures can be a mystery. Add to that parochial and colloquial variants and the exercise of understanding someone correctly - especially in a situation like this where the precise feelings of the other party aren't clear - is a challenge.

I'm certain the Countessa would have first hand experience on that...!
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: low-enghooi on March 07, 2011, 03:24:17 PM: Quote from: *Brum6y* on March 07, 2011, 01:08:18 PM
I understand that when expressing yourself via a language in which you are not fluent, translating words can be difficult enough, but the grammatical structures can be a mystery. Add to that parochial and colloquial variants and the exercise of understanding someone correctly - especially in a situation like this where the precise feelings of the other party aren't clear - is a challenge.

I understand. It is like when I speak Mandarin to people from China/Taiwan they think my grammar is wrong. (But why is their Mandarin considered proper Mandarin and our Mandarin is not? Anyway that is another big topic. ;D) At time it can be (very) difficult to communicate with people who speak mainly one language.

I won't be too concerned about personal safety if I received those text messages. Frustrated, definitely yes. Is it a surprise to me? No.

I have seen so, so many complete IT dumb who pretend they know everything single thing about IT and when things doesn't work (of course it doesn't) they blame on me. When you help them solve all their problem, they think they are smart.

The way to compensate yourself is to include all your cost (and not tell them upfront or they will not pay) when selling anything to them.

Take the $20 router as example. I will sell it for $200 and that includes tech support fees. The best thing is of course, don't sell cheap IT device. You can never get it right.
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: ernest_price on March 07, 2011, 07:57:15 PM: It's finally over.

I suggested that we meet to refund/return at a nice midway point. He said why would I want such a piece of rubbish back - "just give me my refund". I mentioned to him that I can meet him at my work or nearby. There's a nice police station just round the corner from my work so I suggested we meet out the front. Suddenly the router works. I even got a nice text message saying thank you for all the help.

Either the way I set up the meeting worked - or nephew "IT-god" changed the right settings as I instructed him to do.

Taking all your advice and I'm completely out of the cheap IT market now :)
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: *CountessA* on March 07, 2011, 08:08:28 PM: Excellent result!

Sometimes it can be like :deadhorse: to get, as you say, "IT gods" to follow simple instructions... and sometimes even the slightest whiff of a hint of :gaol: can be a wonderful incentive to get such a "piece of rubbish" working.
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: *Brum6y* on March 07, 2011, 09:08:01 PM: I, too, was thinking he may have put the words "work" and "police station" together (in some unimaginable way) that changed his mind .......
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: lacey on March 08, 2011, 11:52:15 AM: No doubt he wanted both, Router and a refund.

I second that Tessa :deadhorse:
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: ernest_price on March 19, 2011, 09:28:36 AM: Just found out that this isn't the first time this guy has done this and I wasn't his last. Thought I'd try and do the right thing and contacted his latest 'victim'. I could tell by the wording of the green dot that things weren't good. The newest seller basically thanked me for contacting him [which was nice] and said the guy was a complete nutter and the seller was also concerned for his safety [deja vu time].

Time to go to eBay on this one and get this guy removed.

Any tips on how/who to go to in eBay?
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: *Brum6y* on March 19, 2011, 03:04:15 PM: I reckon you will be hard pushed to get eBay to act.

I would like to think the Police would be a better direction, especially since this guy seems to have a strong reaction to the thought of them getting involved (like many bullies - cowardly at heart) - but I don't know what they could do. Perhaps ask them.

If you have threatening emails, keep them. If you don't have any tangible evidence, I think it will be difficult.
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: *CountessA* on March 19, 2011, 03:26:27 PM: To contact eBay:

PayPal / eBay Australia Lawyers: Gadens Lawyers Sydney Pty Limited (ACN 100 963 308), Level 16 Skygarden Bldg., 77 Castlereagh Street, Sydney NSW 2000 DX 364 Sydney, Australia. Phone: 61 2 9931 4999. Fax: 61 2 9931 4888. Chief Operating Officer, Sydney Offices: Ian Dardis, Eidardis@nsw.gadens.com.au. Chairman, Sydney Offices: Ian Clarke, iclarke@nsw.gadens.com.au

exec.relations@ebay.com (eBay Executive Relations)
matthewb@ebay.com ( Matthew J. Bannick, President, eBay International)
government_relations@ebay.com (eBay Government Relations Department)
billcobb@ebay.com (President, eBay North America)
csme@ebay.com (Office of the eBay President)
pierre@ebay.com (Pierre Omidyar, eBay Chairman)
ulieberman@ebay.com (Usher Lieberman, Senior Manager Corporate Communications)
jcanfield@ebay.com (John Canfield, Sr. Director Trust & Safety Policy Management)

Contact them all with cc to your lawyer, to an email addressed to the police in your state, etc. It may be an idea to contact a national newspaper and talk to someone there about disturbing harassing behaviour you have encountered, and ask if they're interested in a story on the vulnerabilities of dealing on eBay. Even if you don't get a definite yes, GET THE EMAIL ADDRESS of the reporter with whom you speak, and cc them as well.
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: lacey on March 19, 2011, 08:35:23 PM: A friend of mine sold one of those generator things her son bought to pump water out of the pool, in case of bushfire.

Anyway the son died about 3 years ago and about 2 months ago, my friend sold the generator. last week the man rang her grandson (he was the one who sold it for her) and said the generator didn't work and would cost $300 to get it fixed. my friend told the grandson to ask the man for the receipt after he gets it fixed.

I said maybe she should say to return the generator and give him his money back or when he takes it to get fixed, she should get a copy of the quote and ring the repairer herself to make sure it's getting fixed.

This guy is trying to have the generator and get his money back.
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: ernest_price on March 20, 2011, 10:33:27 AM: I think it's also a lack of understanding about the auction process. There is no warranty [usually] with an auction.

If the item worked the day the buyer received it, as described, if it breaks 2 months later there is no warranty. Same as if it works but the buyer is unable to get it to work due to lack of ability, that's the buyer's problem.

It's part of the deal - buyer buys cheaper [usually], buyer takes the chance. Surely that's one of the reasons the buyer went to eBay in the first place - to get it chepear than full retail with warranty.

As low-enghooi sort of said above - here's the item for $20 at auction. If you want tech support that's an additional cost -which is why you go to retail and pay $100 for the item for item + tech support + warranty.
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: *CountessA* on March 20, 2011, 03:33:26 PM: Exactly, Ernest.

Unfortunately, the whole "get it cheaper online" idea has bred a new perception in the online buying generation.

At first, a lot of people were hesitant to buy online for a number of reasons:

  no warranty;
  no technical support;
  no try-it-on-before-you-buy (with clothes, jewellery, perfume, etc.);
  concerns about fraudulent items;
  as-is being explicitly understood to be a condition of auction purchases;
  waiting instead of receiving item instantly.

Some - primarily those who were already the buy-it-through-the-Trading-Post-or-local-paper sort - embraced online purchasing for second-hand, rare, collectible items, or for items not available locally. Gradually some sellers saw that it could take off as a way of selling without the overheads of a real shop, and the consequently lower prices attracted some purchasers.

Gradually more and more people bought online, seeing the lower prices as making it worth the risk. This was especially the case as eBay and PayPal moved to offer buyers "protection" if the item was not as described or didn't arrive.

(IMPORTANT NOTE: There is a problem with this: it encourages an idea that you as an online purchaser are entitled to the same protections as a shop purchase - i.e., warranty, technical support, right to report and return frauds, ignoring the "as-is" EXPLICITLY defined in Australian Consumer Protection law, and of course RECEIVING THE ITEM VIRTUALLY INSTANTLY.)

Online sellers are more and more under pressure of sending purchased items almost before the purchase is made. Granted, we all like having our orders filled asap, but unrealistic ideas about supply time are prolific in the online buying community. In my view, if you buy online, one of the drawbacks is the delay in receiving what you've purchased. That's a given. That's how it is. It might be 2 weeks, it might be 4, it might be months. None of us have any control over that transit time. I take that into account when deciding whether or not I'll buy something online.

I didn't mention one point in my "IMPORTANT NOTE" sentence: try-it-on-before-you-buy. You'd have thought that people buying things online would realise that's an implicit and unavoidable drawback to buying something advertised online - you can't try on the dress; you can't spray on the perfume; you can't try the jewellery against your skin; you can't pick up the book, flip through the pages to see whether or not you like the writing style, see that it's in perfect undented condition, is the right edition, etc.; you can't see the list of performers in a DVD if the listing or item information doesn't include it. You CAN listen to a sample of a track if you're buying a music CD and IF there ARE sample tracks to listen to, but if for instance you want to listen to the bit on track 19 3 minutes in, to see whether you like the way the singer performs a particular section of a song, you can't! The sample, if there is one, is arbitrary, and it usually includes the first 30 or 60 seconds of a piece, not a section from the middle.

But... and here's the problem... one of the huge benefits of buying from a shop, staffed with well-informed people who can give expert advice and make expert and informed recommendations, which can also allow you the huge advantage of physically seeing, touching, holding, etc., the item in question, is now being assumed as a right for the online purchase.

Of course, there's a problem. If I'm buying a dress from an online seller, I can't actually try it on before I buy. But I could buy from an eBay seller (new or second-hand) and claim "significantly not as described" and threaten a negative if I can't return the dress with full postage refund both ways as well as item refund - assuming the dress just doesn't look any good on me.

By doing that, I'm claiming the advantage of a real shop, for the price of an item bought from an online seller. I'm trying to have my cake and eat it.

Ditto with buying a book. I might be in the mood for buying a few books for a holiday coming up. But being a scungy non-real-bookshop-buyer (let's assume this for a moment, even though I'm not!), I'm not going to perform the tricky task of browsing online for some books that I might like. No - I'll go and visit a real bookshop, browse through the books, pick up the books, flip through them, decide which ones attract me, take note of the book information, and go away and buy from an online bookshop so that I give myself every sort of advantage.

It sounds attractive - and buyers claim that all a shop has to do to convert their browsing into a sale is to have prices at the same level as an online bookshop. That, of course, is intrinsically not able to happen, quite irrespective of the GST hoo-ha. (Running costs of the shop, supply cost of the books from Australian distributors, etc.) The buyer knows that, so by demanding price-matching that literally cannot happen, they're creating an excuse haven for their buying practices.

In my opinion - and this might sound harsh - either I do my searching and browsing and buying ENTIRELY online (with all the risks involved, and the different methods of online browsing from the browsing in a real shop), or I buy from the shop through whose stock I'm browsing. I believe very strongly that it's disingenuous and dishonest to use a real shop as a browsing and try-on facility for an online purchase.
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: low-enghooi on March 21, 2011, 01:34:15 AM: I only can talk from my personal experience.

Years ago when I started collecting coins. I thought buying from online website like ebay is crazy idea. How am I supposed to know what I get is real and as described? What is the guarantee?

So I turned to real dealer running real (con) business. These dealer offers me absolutely fantastic customer service. They say only the nice things that I want to listen. They offer me unconditional return policy. BUT, when you don't know what you are doing, what is the meaning of unconditional return policy? It means you get conned faster!

I don't know about the behavior of people who only buy books from online seller. I have no problem buying coins from online shop provided I know the type of coins I am buying. I DO HAVE problem buying coins from a real shop because I don't trust fantastic customer service. I don't trust unconditional return policy. If the dealer is selling good coins and I get to see it myself, what is the point of return policy?

Warranty, technical support, try-it-before-you-buy, fraudulent item, instant delivery, what not, is a problem BOTH in online and offline (real shop) business. All these stupid thing cost money. If you, as a buyer, wanted all these "luxurious" features you have to pay for it. When people ask for these things, they are transferring the risk to the shop owner, and who is buying the bill here? Do you think if there is enough request online seller can't cater all these things? The answer is of course, NO.

So here there is a choice. You can go to a real shop and yet you are conned (try coin shop.) You can buy from online seller and you get genuine wonderful deal.

Talking about instant delivery, I thought there is such thing as courier service. I thought FedEx is not bad. DHL, UPS, and what not. Who is paying the bill?
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: ernest_price on April 20, 2011, 08:20:13 AM: Back with the finale.

eBay wouldn't do anything. Not interested at all. Also refused to go anywhere on the related issue with another seller because of the need for privacy. I couldn't even give them the info. Refused to listen.

The other seller had given the classic green dot but with red dot wording - that's been removed - unfortunately in this case as there is nothing there to warn sellers.

So they've effectiely given him a licence to do it again. Arghhh!
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: *CountessA* on April 20, 2011, 09:07:57 AM: Getting eBay to act against bad buyers is - I believe - as difficult as one of the Labours of Hercules.

I'm sorry you had no luck, Ernest. Once again, a buyer who knows how to abuse the process is left to perpetrate his evil.
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: *FluffyDuckee* on April 20, 2011, 09:11:23 AM: I'm sorry you couldn't get the satisfaction of having Ebay deal with this guy as he should have been dealt with. It is sad these people get away with so much. It's why they continue to be able to do it.

Seems to happen more and more these days.
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: *CountessA* on April 20, 2011, 09:19:41 AM: I've heard many sellers complain about the inability to leave negative feedback when a buyer has truly behaved badly.

Of course, nobody wants the tit-for-tat scenario that used to prevail a few years ago, with bad sellers simply retaliating with negative feedback after they were hit with deserved negs themselves.

But I do strongly believe that removing the ability from sellers to give deserved negs to buyers ENTIRELY has bred a sense of invincible arrogance in buyers. They know they can dish out red dots and insulting comments, as long as they stay just within the eBay rules. They know the rules well enough to be able to act INSTANTLY if a seller tries to give them a negative comment with a positive dot - they report it, have the neg removed, and chuckle heartlessly to themselves for having got the seller a "demerit point" from eBay. They're often more informed about the convolutions of eBay's rules than are sellers, because they use eBay as a way of scoring points over others and exercising their nastiness (ego-related meanness) whereas the sellers just want to run a business.

It's all of that which is a background to the situation when it comes to a buyer who's not just nasty, but criminal.

The criminally inclined buyer knows he/she is enabled on eBay, with everything geared towards protecting the buyer. Claiming non-arrival or SNAD, with the threat of negs held over unfortunate sellers' heads, puts the buyer in a position of unholy power.
Title: Re: Police or eBay first - undecided but concerned
Post by: *Brum6y* on April 20, 2011, 02:52:07 PM: Quote from: *Countessa* on April 20, 2011, 09:19:41 AM

Of course, nobody wants the tit-for-tat scenario that used to prevail a few years ago, with bad sellers simply retaliating with negative feedback after they were hit with deserved negs themselves.

Au contraire!

Personally, I would embrace that situation with a passion!

Why?

(1) First and foremost, it gave nasty sellers the ability to shoot themselves in the foot - and blow it right off sometimes.

The rating given a member reflects the nature of the author more than it does the recipient. A simple example of this is to take a seller you know well and look at the feedback they receive. That seller is quite likely going to be very consistent in how they deal with their customers, but the range of feedback they receive can vary from a one word acknowledgement to rapturous praise. If you go a step further and check out feedback left for other sellers by any given buyer, it will usually be seen that they are fairly consistent and you will get a 'feel' for their style.

This analysis works just as well for sellers - especially when they had the power to give out red and grey dots. Those non-green dots were often VERY revealing!

(2) Undeserved Negs were often very easy to spot (especially retaliatory ones) - by simply going one or two levels deeper into the feedback layers. Buyers caned by an aggressive seller need not fear being put at a disadvantage in subsequent sales with other sellers. Those later sellers will have had experience in assessing the people they deal with - and if a buyer scores an out-of-character neg given by a previous seller who demonstrates 'ratbag' attitudes, they shouldn't be too worried.

(3) Negs on buyers have next to no impact - other than the psychological anxiety of the 'blemish' on their record. They aren't affected in any buying activities and once they make a purchase, the seller is obliged to proceed with the sale. If there are any difficulties along the way, in most cases, the seller will soon be able to work out what they are up against.

So, yes, I am all in favour of 'bringing back the biff'. Those negs left by a seller shone like beacons - and their mutilated feet were so easy to see, but now they have been 'protected from themselves' - so spotting a true nutter is more difficult than it used to be.....

... which means, as far as a buyer is concerned, it is LESS safe to do business on eBay.