Oz Round Table
The Oz Round Table boards => The Round Table => Topic started by: *wheels* on December 04, 2009, 08:32:50 PM
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I know I've asked this question before but it never ceases to amaze me how long it takes before some sellers are made NARU. At least with our latest seller we paid with PayPal so we'll get a refund. This seller has over 128,000 feedback but everything seems to have fallen apart over the last couple of weeks - 812 Negs THIS MONTH! Feedback percentage is down to 96.9% and falling fast.
I suppose at least with the seller not being made NARU the listings are still visible to all the poor buyers who are hoping to get refunds. And the buyers can still leave Negs!
http://feedback.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=outpost_media_deals&ftab=AllFeedback
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Dropshipper?
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another dropshipper that lists before they get the goods ....
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Yes, exactly, giving the word "Powerseller" a bad name.
No wonder I tend on the whole to avoid them - unless the feedback indicates definitely that it's not a dropshipper.
What befuddles me is that the bad feedback is clearly going back a long way. How can a seller convince people to buy with this sort of bad record? And - Wheels, with you, I wonder just what it would take for this seller to be NARUd by eBay. Look at the pattern of negatives. It goes back more than 6 months.
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How can a seller convince people to buy with this sort of bad record?
I'm guessing it was the cheapest price for that particular book, and not a lot listed on eBay. My youngest son purchased it and he's usually pretty good at checking feedback first. He was buying it on behalf of a friend so I've looked around and found the same book today from emporiumbooks.com.au for the same price delivered.
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give him a darn good seeing to Mum !!!
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Smee, I can't be too mean to him, he spent an hour or so crawling around under the house today moving a cable for me. All 6ft4 of him in less than a foot high space.
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ok .... suitabley punished then !
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Not suitably punished Smee. You do realise I'm an advocate for keelhauling for all offenses, no matter how trivial don't you?
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Interesting question...... How many negs V how much in fees payable! Reminds me of another powerseller in times past!
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Interesting question...... How many negs V how much in fees payable! Reminds me of another powerseller in times past!
And Which power seller would that be ?.....LOL...don't answer that...LOL...how are ya r 38 ....
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Blardy marvellous Yib! Just home from work, thankfully.
And as regards the powerseller..... well, there was the holiday mob, then there was the fella who fled back to China.... EB..... SB..... nup, can't remember! ;D There was also a bloke who sold motor bike parts in very recent times.
Moral to the story....... AVOID POWERSELLERS! The small business always seems to be the more reliable bet in my experience.
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Maybe he's dead.. Neg is now over 1000
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What I find even more amazing is, the amount of people willing to take a chance to buy off him with feedback that bad.
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And yet, he's still holding 96.7% feedback!
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Do ebay have a cut off point like say 90 - 95%. After that you are O.U.T.?
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lacey - there are no further items for sale..... and there is some positive feedbaack coming back - although it appears to be only on the more expensive purchases. Ebay have been known in the past to allow a seller to 'trade out' of trouble. Could be why they are still not NARU. The current feedback percentage remains the same as it was for 800 negs.
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The seller currently has no auctions or items for sale in his store ... if ebay were to Naru him now it would serve absolutley no purpose other than to make it hard for people who have paid to either get their item or get a refund ... They have obviously restricted his account so that he cant list anything else until this drama has been sorted out ...it would appear that he is a drop shipper and lists items that he is expecting to arrive but not actiually in his possession ... always a dangerous thing to do but also silly for buyers to part with their money up front if he actually says in his listings that they are pre order
would you give myers your money up front if you went to buy something from them and they said out of stock for 2 weeks ? No you wouldnt if you went back in 2 weeks and they had item in stock you would pay then ....
often at this time of year container ships get held up and this ultimatley creates a back log a customs waiting for freight to be cleared , I would suggest that this seller would be working closely with his power seller ebay account manager or whatever they call them trying to restrict the damage ... and hope that the container arrives and /or clears soon so he can ship the freight and then try and convince the buyers to remove the negs when the items arrive .. so he may just be able to save his business ... but its high time ebay put a stop to this type of trading its far to risky and has been the cause of a lot of heartache for buyers
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Ok, so not looking good for seller but still up there trying.
i wouldn't go near him. Too risky.
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aha r2d2 you snuck in front of me , it took me that long to type my post whilst on the phone ... but yeah what you said
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I don't think Oztion allow this type of selling on their site and i can understand why. I hope for the sellers sake it gets sorted although, like someone said it's been going on for a year or maybe even longer. ;D
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not to this extent Lacey it hasnt , prior to this month he had a % of about 97 still not flash but not disgraceful ......
and Oztion do allow it ....see listing policy 5
http://www.oztion.com.au/content/0012005/help/Sell/listingpolicies.aspx
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I don't think there is any mention of pre-sales in this seller's listings. And some mug buyer even paid extra for express shipping and is still waiting for their book! Knew something was wrong when we received no reply to emails and went to open a PayPal dispute and PayPal immediately moved it to a claim. No further response yet from seller or PayPal.
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ok ... he is a very naughty boy then .... and as soon as all these buyers have been reimbursed somehow then he should be NARUD and Boondah'd severley !!!
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You are right smee. I stand corrected. I was remembering an article in the forums a very long time ago and people were stating back then that sellers couldn't dropship. I never bothered to check that myself as I wasn't a seller and wasn't buying either. ;D
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I dont know if it would be such a big problem on oztion but still has the same potential problems just not on such a big scale I would imagine ?
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I'm not sure. I only buy off sellers who have the product on hand. If I see mention that it's coming from overseas I pass it by.
I do remeber that people were complaining about it though. ;D
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I only buy off sellers who have the product on hand. If I see mention that it's coming from overseas I pass it by.
A very good idea in my opinion Lacey ... its only inviting trouble if you buy before the seller has it in his hot little hand
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I think buyers need to be aware, very aware, of the dangers of buying from sellers like this.
1. He hasn't stated that he's drop-shipping. Big no-no.
2. Drop-shipping and asking for pre-payment is foolish in my opinion. If I discovered that I'd paid in full for something that wasn't even in the seller's possession, I'd immediately contact my card provider. Forget about PayPal's slow 1-2 month "investigation".
3. This whole drop-shipping concept needs to be re-evaluated, again in my opinion. I think eBay not only needs to change its policy concerning drop-shipping, but to enforce it without exception. No special bikkies for "special sellers". No trading out of a financial mudpool.
Suggestion: by all means pay 10% of the purchase price up-front from a registered business, on the understanding that this amount is refundable if the item doesn't arrive. Do not pay the full amount until it's in stock and ready to be sent.
I don't mind paying the full amount on something from a b&m store whom I trust, if it's a costly item and needs to be specially ordered in, as long as my consumer rights are protected fully. But on eBay, it's like falling through the rabbit-hole and ending up in Blunderland.
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Countessa, I agree about drop-shipping. It can be very risky for both buyers and sellers.
Still no word from PayPal re a refund from this seller.
Also, you will find there is very little difference between buying from a dodgy online seller or a B&M store. If a B&M business collapses or if the owner suddenly shuts up shop and does a runner with your money any customers who have prepaid for orders will be the last in the long line of recipients if any funds are ever recovered. An example is Kleenmaid earlier this year - they were still taking orders, and payments, the day before all the stores were closed permanently.
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Ive just had another look and negatives are still flowing in, amongst some positives , it appears as though some are getting refunds at this stage , but the MAIN complaint appears to be that there has been NO communication . So if this throbber is a dropshipper and container is stuck on wharf or something why wouldnt he try to at least salvage some good faith by messaaging the customers advising them of the story .... alternatively if he is a shonk and done a runner or perhaps something serious has happened and the poor sod is in hospital or passed away or something once again why hasnt his power sellers a/c manger or eBay (who are obviously aware of a situation) at least sent a generic message out to all his buyers advising that they are aware there is a problem and that they have taken control of the accoumt ie no more sales and advise also what action is being taken to rectify ..ie freight due for release on 16th december or we are attempting to recover funds from this shonk or whatever ?????
All people want when they are out of pocket is to be kept informed and reassured that some action is happening in regard to getting their goods to them or a possible refund ... just saying nothing only inflames the situation IMO
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All people want when they are out of pocket is to be kept informed and reassured that some action is happening in regard to getting their goods to them or a possible refund ... just saying nothing only inflames the situation IMO
And... isn't that the truth! Nothing worse than simply not knowing. Interestingly, the seller has received just over two pages of positive feedback so far - just for today. Others speak of delays of 6 weeks or more. If the refunds are from Paypal - this will probably complicate matters further, if in fact the seller is attempting to make good his / her commitments.
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Well they won't be getting a positive from us as we have already purchased the same book from another site and it is on it's way, should be here tomorrow. No communication whatsoever from the seller and deadline for them to respond to our dispute is 14th Dec.
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Not that I condone this seller, but I wonder if he has been relying on eBay's messaging system for communication...?
I was talking to someone last weekend and they told me of a few situations where messages had NOT gone through.
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i have experienced that a lot brumby and checked with customers to prove it happened
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they filter a lot of messages and sometimes the filters fail emails that should have gone through
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Not that I condone this seller, but I wonder if he has been relying on eBay's messaging system for communication...?
I was talking to someone last weekend and they told me of a few situations where messages had NOT gone through.
He could also put an anouncement of his me page ... I dont think he is trying that hard ...
....... and another strong message being sent about the dangers of Pre sale or dropshippers .....
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do you think many people know to actually look on the "me" page smee? I wonder about that, i dont much, they can be good tho for that
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Still no communication from the seller. It is now one month since paid and time for a neg. Some of the feedback that has been left recently was from buyers who purchased at start of November - and they left positive feedback!
Update from the seller posted on their website:
http://www.whiteelephantmedia.com/
some extracts ..
eBay/PayPal unjustifiably shut down our accounts without any notice whatsoever. We are trying to ascertain the reason for this other than what they considered was "increased fraud risk". We want to point out that White Elephant Media has been in business for nearly 6 years and was one of eBay’s largest sellers. We had outstanding customer service ratings. We were a real brick and mortar business with numerous employees, and a large monthly volume. The point is we weren’t a fly by night business, and actually had met with eBay/PayPal personnel on our premises as part of the "fraud risk assessment" program. Nothing had changed in our business. In short we are completely perplexed why we are in this position.
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Our PayPal/eBay account was closed November 18, 2009, after selling successfully on eBay for almost 6 years. Several weeks ago, we were asked by PayPal to give them a “deposit” so we could keep accepting PayPal payments. (And if you sell or buy on eBay, you know you have to use PayPal). At first PayPal asked for us to pay $212k into this deposit account. They expected it to be funded in about 3 months. On November 13th, 2009 PayPal decided to increase the amount they wanted from us. Basically, in order for us to keep selling like we have been for years, PayPal increased the amount they needed in our “deposit” account to $600k. (Many eBay sellers are facing this type of problem).
They closed our account after we indicated it would be impossible to come up with $600,000 in about 6 weeks during the holidays. Why they wanted more than a half a million dollars and when it would be repaid if ever was exceptionally nebulous and never explained to us. 48 hours after we were locked out of our account, there was well over $230k in the account. That is the money we use to pay for our merchandise and postage. We were denied access to it and therefore we are unable to operate.
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sorry to hear that wheels hope it wasnt too much
here is latest neg for them, maybe do a google as they suggest (if you have not already)
Google their name for reason, filling claim now, they SUCK
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this one got a positive...
Sex Tips from a Dominatrix-New Book
was this the one you ordered wheelsy? lol
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350278531758
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Thanks Gr8, see link to their website above ^^
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:lol:
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very interesting, but these guys were getting huge numbers of negs 3 months ago well before november
Our PayPal/eBay account was closed November 18, 2009, after selling successfully on eBay for almost 6 years. Several weeks ago, we were asked by PayPal to give them a “deposit” so we could keep accepting PayPal payments. (And if you sell or buy on eBay, you know you have to use PayPal). At first PayPal asked for us to pay $212k into this deposit account. They expected it to be funded in about 3 months. On November 13th, 2009 PayPal decided to increase the amount they wanted from us. Basically, in order for us to keep selling like we have been for years, PayPal increased the amount they needed in our “deposit” account to $600k. (Many eBay sellers are facing this type of problem).
you can see though how ebay cant claim they are just a venue, they are running the show really when they have such sway over a seller but this ones far from perfect by the look and easy to blame ebay/paypal too
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hubby will be glad it didnt arrive wheels lol....
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so basically the sller funds the "paypal" guarantee and in these big cases you wonder just how much paypal/ebay ever have to put in of their own money dontcha?
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http://www.paypalwarning.com/paypal_sucks (http://www.paypalwarning.com/paypal_sucks)
http://www.paypalsucks.com/ (http://www.paypalsucks.com/)
http://knaddison.com/opinions/why-i-hate-paypal-why-paypal-sucks (http://knaddison.com/opinions/why-i-hate-paypal-why-paypal-sucks)
http://www.paypalsucks.net/ (http://www.paypalsucks.net/)
Google: PayPal sucks!
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very interesting, but these guys were getting huge numbers of negs 3 months ago well before november
Our PayPal/eBay account was closed November 18, 2009, after selling successfully on eBay for almost 6 years. Several weeks ago, we were asked by PayPal to give them a “deposit” so we could keep accepting PayPal payments. (And if you sell or buy on eBay, you know you have to use PayPal). At first PayPal asked for us to pay $212k into this deposit account. They expected it to be funded in about 3 months. On November 13th, 2009 PayPal decided to increase the amount they wanted from us. Basically, in order for us to keep selling like we have been for years, PayPal increased the amount they needed in our “deposit” account to $600k. (Many eBay sellers are facing this type of problem).
you can see though how ebay cant claim they are just a venue, they are running the show really when they have such sway over a seller but this ones far from perfect by the look and easy to blame ebay/paypal too
Only a venue...... so the venue is now exerting strong arm tactics against sellers in an effort to cover their own arse! This example seems dreadfully rough to me, actually - immoral. I see another argument brewing about the compulsory offering of paypal here is Aus.
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so basically the sller funds the "paypal" guarantee and in these big cases you wonder just how much paypal/ebay ever have to put in of their own money dontcha?
GR8 I have never heard of any one person ever ever ever being covered by Paypal out of Paypal's pocket. I have heard of buyers having the money they paid refunded to them, but that is not Paypal's money, it is sale money refunded and therefore bankrolled by the seller.
I have heard talk of Paypal offering seller protection. But I have never heard of a case where this was actually tested and the result in the positive for the seller. Even proving an item sent via post and registered doesn't actually call upon Paypal to stand with the seller. If an item is registered, then a minimum of $100 insurance is automatically allocated and I would think even there, Paypal would make AUS Post pay the insurance out.
As I said I have never actually heard of a seller who had a claim made against them of say, item not received, then they provided proof of delivery and then Paypal, (bless their cotton socks) actually refunds in favour of the seller. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, just saying I have never heard of one single case. Ever. Never.
Is there anyone out there that has?
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Yes fluffy.... I have. But talk about a battle over nearly three months!
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Get BNWT to tell the story of his battle with PayPal re an allegedly damaged wallet.
BNWT did not take PayPal's decision lying down. No - it was off to the Ombudsman to submit a claim against PayPal, and the claim was successful.
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Finally, an email from the seller ..
Outpost Media Deal Update
December 9, 2009
Listen, I am really sorry for this very delinquent email. Our accounts (White Elephant Media, Outpost Media Deals, Mediamusement and Moon Base Media) were closed November 18th by eBay we have been locked out of our PayPal account, too. Today at 3:32 PM we finally received over 85,000 email addresses that have accumulated since then that we did not have access to. We're sorry, we had to get some special programming done by a third party company to just get your email address, we don't have the actual message. And we're having to use another third party company to send you this update.
Anyhow, the short version is we are officially out of business. We are not going to be able to ship. EBay/PayPal seized over a quarter of million dollars of our money and it is available for you to get a refund. You can process your refund through their resolution center.
We don't have the product to ship in house, nor do we have available funds to refund any payments. For a more thorough explanation please go to our website at http://www.whiteelephantmedia.com
Also, I want to point out we have had to lay off almost everyone, over 20 workers. We don't have anyone available to answer your questions or respond to emails. Again we apologize. I know we have terrible feedback right now, but Ebay shut us down without reason, and we had great feedback before they took this action. We were in our 6th year of business, with more than half a million positive feedbacks across our four user IDs.
If EBay/PayPal has ever closed a business of yours or someone you know, please let us know. There is a definite pattern. Please email us at ebay@whiteelephantmedia.com and put "VICTIM" as the subject line.
Additionally, many of you made payments since November 18th and some of you are still being billed by EBay/PayPal. DO NOT PAY THEM - We don't know who is collecting that money but it isn't us. We don't have any product on site to ship. No payment should have been processed after Nov. 18th - period! Other EBay sellers have had similar problems as early as 2006; for whatever reason EBay has refused to change this policy see linked article - http://www.auctionbytes.com/cab/abn/y06/m10/i06/s03
If you did pay after Nov 18th, please contact us at ebay@whiteelephantmedia.com and put "PAID AFTER 18TH" as the subject line.
Finally, thank you for your years of support. We know this has been a terrible experience for our customers. This has been a horrible experience for all customers, employees and suppliers. We had everything invested in this company and it was going great, even in this terrible economy. We still don't understand EBay's position.
Good luck, we are doing everything we can to try and see everyone gets paid back. eBay/PayPal has a quarter million dollars of our money we can't access, so please don't hesitate to file a claim and get your money back.
If PayPal refuses or fails to pay you back please contact us at ebay@whiteelephantmedia.com and put "NO PAYPAL REFUND" as the subject line and tell us know what they said.
Sincerely,
White Elephant Media
and related brands: Outpost Media Deals, Mediamusement and Moon Base Media
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I can understand that White Elephant Media feels aggrieved.
I can understand the devastation resulting from being unable to trade anymore.
However, they've been disingenuous with their perception of feedback having been great, and everything in the garden being lovely prior to the demand by PayPal for this large amount of money. :hummingbird:
They have behaved like BAD powersellers in the past; their feedback consistently has included what I consider a significant number of extremely dissatisfied customers for whom the transaction was not a delight. Judging by the feedback in the past, White Elephant Media have been selling goods they don't have in stock - they've been drop-shipping, in other words, and not even stating that in their listings.
That's not admirable behaviour in a seller. However, no doubt White Elephant Media considers they were doing pretty darned well because the negatives were swallowed up mostly by the positives. They've been inculcated within the eBay feedback society to think that this is more than adequate.
I don't think they WERE doing well. Outside eBay, consumer expectations and merchant responsibilities have to exist in the real world, which means consumer legislation as per the TPA. The number of very dissatisfied customers who'd make a complaint through THOSE channels, the real world channels, would force an investigation, and then White Elephant Media would have understood that they were not performing as required.
They should NOT have been selling items they did not have in stock.
They should NOT have been ignoring the symptoms of extreme unhappiness from so many customers.
They should NOT have gone merrily on their way, skirting from one disaster to another.
They should NOT now be thinking it is all eBay's fault.
eBay bears a significant amount of blame, though.
1. Demanding "a quarter of a million dollars" from a seller is really outrageous. I've read the justifications put forward by PayPal for this latest behaviour, and it's simply beyond belief. Businesses already operating within a very tight profit margin don't have the large percentage of the total items sold amount available as liquid funds. Outrageous, outrageous, outrageous.
2. Creating a seller culture in which drop-shipping by Powersellers is tacitly winked at is out of order. eBay must bear a great deal of blame for enabling sellers to take advantage of this winking.
3. Creating a seller culture in which lots of negatives are simply swallowed up by the large number of positives is creating a false sense of satisfaction and reliability. A great many Powersellers are floating their boat on the lake of eBay's magic numbers, and ignoring the real world expectations and requirements for customer satisfaction and protection. NOT GOOD ENOUGH... but it wouldn't be happening if eBay didn't allow it. And worse still, allowing it makes it a market edge which sellers may well feel they must take, lest they become undercut badly by their competitors. It's like seeing men thrown into an arena, told that one must tear off the other's head, because only one will be allowed to make it out alive. Who is the real killer? The bloodied winner of the arena or the brutish savages who roared in approval as they watched the "game" and put them there?
4. Allowing sellers who are insolvent or are indicating insolvency or where insolvency or inability to continue trading may be suspected is appalling behaviour on the part of eBay. SOMEONE in eBay must bear the responsibility for either failing to notice the signs, or ignoring the signs in favour of giving the seller another chance. If eBay gives Powersellers extended chances when suspicions should justly be raised, I would expect eBay to bear the full responsibility for protecting any buyer's purchase from that seller - and I don't mean just through PayPal, either!
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I just checked the seller's shipping details on the item we paid for. There is NO mention that it is a pre-order.
copied from the listing:
GREAT TITLES - FAST SHIPPING!
Outpost Media Deals offers a wide selection of music, movies and video games. All at great prices and with fast shipping. If you love entertainment as much as we do you'll love our selection and service!
100% Factory Sealed Brand New
Our titles are brand new and unopened in their original packaging. We've negotiated with major licensed US manufacturers, distributors and studios to get the best deals delivered to you in the shortest time. These are the same titles you'd find in major retail stores, but at lower prices. Buy with us and save!
Please contact our customer support at help@outpostmediadeals.com
SHIPPING INFORMATION
* You will receive a total of 4 emails about your order's progress.
* Orders usually ship 2-5 business days after payment clears.
* 90% of all domestic orders arrive within 10 days. 99% arrive within 21 days.
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And our order included extra payment for express shipping.
I'm sending an email to PayPal to question why it's taking so long to get a refund (I'm not holding my breath for an answer). If they are holding funds from the seller why aren't buyers getting their money back? Our sale was on 10th November.
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Wheels, give them a call and tell them you think this has gone on long enough, and that the seller has definitely confirmed that the goods won't be supplied. What further investigation is needed?
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An update, seller is now NARU.
No word from PayPal, seller had until yesterday to respond., case still says "Awaiting other party's response".
PayPal customer service pfft! :vent:
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frustrating wheels as in VERY hopefully the credit card thing will be faster for you rather than wait for preypal? it sucks to take that long if as the sellers says paypal have over $250,000 of their money most likely earning high interest in the overnight money markets for paypal, each day would be worth quite a bit in interest so the longer they stuff about the more they make, it sucks and shows the weakness of the system once naru the whole thing is through paypal with no contact or recourse with seller to resolve and they (ebay) are just a venue? i dont think so...
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there was an announced set of changes on ebay aust re paypal claims will shortly be through ebay as in 2010, i will dig it out and post it here soon
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PayPal update:
We have concluded our investigation into your case and have decided in your favour.
We were able to recover $XXX USD, and this amount has been credited to you. Please allow five business days for this adjustment to be posted.
If you are due any additional funds, we will make our best effort to recover the balance from the seller.
If the seller's account has insufficient funds to complete the refund owed to you, please be assured that we will take appropriate action against the seller's account, which may include limitation of the seller's account privileges.
"limitation of the seller's account" - bit late I think!
(PayPal refund received today)
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Did you receive the full amount, Wheels?
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Yes ;D
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That's a relief. It almost sounds as though PayPal wouldn't have refunded you the full amount if it had to come from PayPal rather than the seller - which of course is something that buyers relying on PayPal would usually not expect, since PayPal is touted as being full protection.
So far, PayPal seem to be refunding fully on this sort of claim...