... has introduced a system of masked bidding aliases that serves no purpose other than to further lessen the transparency of the auction bidding process for the purpose of further obscuring such criminal activity
I have had a few very annoying experiences when the IDs were first hidden. I discovered (after two auctions, and during another) that a family member was bidding on the same items. Grrr!
I don't mind my ID being hidden during an auction but it takes the fun out of things.And can cause some mix ups.
"We're working now on a new system to beta test in early 2010. If all goes well, we'll launch it shortly thereafter."
That has me wondering as well, brumby. Will they stop buyers telling a seller the bank details are not coming up and prevent buyers asking for said details??...Now I am being paranoid !!
Brumby, You make the mistake of believing anything that eBay says;
Brumby, You make the mistake of believing anything that eBay says;Now there's a fascinating take on my post.
Phil, Phil, Phil..... You have not paid much attention to what I actually said, have you?
<edited 10:08>
lmao....you do realise you just said all that to a computer numpty?....hehehehe....I'll have to get that translated first...like where or what is the PC Print Screen Key?...lolCue, you can do all this with the programs that are already in XP pro......
it may be better to “print” the active window to PDF; that way you get the whole document; PDFs can then be saved as bitmaps and further edited if necessary.
aha....and I'll know how to do that right after someone gives me step by step instructions......lmao....numpty alert....stand clear
Exactly....
I make the assumption that for you to believe that there was any degree of validity, to any of those reasons that you gave, you must have actually believed some statement that eBay has made
I make the assumption that for you to believe that there was any degree of validity, to any of those reasons that you gave, you must have actually believed some statement that eBay has made
Q.E.D.
When a buyer clicks on a sellers feedback 'number', they are taken to the 'feedback as a seller' page.
A shill is an associate of a person selling goods or services or a political group, who pretends no association to the seller/group and assumes the air of an enthusiastic customer. The intention of the shill is, using crowd psychology, to encourage others unaware of the set-up to purchase said goods or services or support the political group's ideological claims. Shills are often employed by confidence artists. The term plant is also used.
Shilling is illegal in many circumstances and in many jurisdictions[1] because of the frequently fraudulent and damaging character of their actions. However, if a shill does not place uninformed parties at a risk of loss, but merely generates "buzz", the shill's actions may be legal. For example, a person planted in an audience to laugh and applaud when desired (see claque), or to participate in on-stage activities as a "random member of the audience", is a type of legal shill.
There's not much on ebay I can't buy elsewhere. As you found with your item.
Can I make it any simpler: sellers who use the private listing device are, more likely than not, shill bidders.
a few small semantic changes phil and we have a peace accord with brumbs.....
BTW....What a strange performance. Meaning?
An over-the-top reaction Cupie. It's a discussion forum isn't it........with rules. You know, rules that members are supposed to adhere to.
Seems like anything goes here hey?
That might make Bazza [removed] happy
And people complain about eBay moderation.
Exactly right Yibida.
You see nothing wrong with the comment?
Anyway, a vendor bid is no different to a reserve price. A vendor bid pushes the price of an item to a point that the seller is willing to part with the item. Exactly the same as a reserve.
... drive the price to a point the seller is willing to accept.
No-one is going to argue that shill-bidding is unlawful.Agreed
Morally wrong...that's debatable.Not for me. With many things in this world that aren't unlawful but are morally wrong, it would seem to me that in raising the bar, legislatively, there is a corresponding increase in what is considered morally wrong. You say shill bidding is unlawful, so how can it be anything other than morally wrong? Mind you, that is an objective view on morality.
Bringing the laws of the land into the arguement doesn't wash with me.So you are advocating illegal conduct...? Can I take your car without your permission, then?
I live in the real world where profit and loss mean survival,I live there too. I also play the game by the rules. I seem to survive. I know one or two others that seem to do the same or a lot better than me. I don't have a flash car or a 60" flat panel TV, but I can still get from A to B and watch a DVD.
where shill bidding is used as a competitive edge
and where reserves don't exist within the largest on-line marketplace in Australia (with few exceptions).Now THIS I will agree on. EBay have changed the playing field and I am no fan of removing options, such as this.
We can talk all we like about the law,... and it still remains the law: relevant and definitive.
but it's real and it happens.The same can be said for fraud, embezzlement, murder, robbery, assault, rape, drink driving, speeding, parking in a clearway, streaking, shill bidding, product misrepresentation, mailing plutonium, destruction of (someone else's) property, evading tax, drive an unregistered vehicle on a public thoroughfare, being a traitor, libel and slander as well as shill bidding.
I feel the moderation is minimal to avoid personal dig's as per the user agreement of this site
I'm not a button pusher yibida. We'll see if the moderators want to uphold the UA of the site.
Brumby. I take on board what you have written. My views are based on the outcome of an auction, shilled or reserved.
BTW....I'm not a seller. I simply understand why shilling occurs.
"We are now in court over some of these matters and have investigations under way in
several States in relation to allegations of dummy bidding and misleading valuations.
The Commission considers all vendor bidding to be misleading unless fully disclosed
both at the start of the auction and at the time of the bid. An undisclosed vendor bid
has no more intention of purchasing a property than a tree or gnome.
In some jurisdictions, such disclosure is not yet mandatory, and in others, there are
limitations to a maximum of one vendor bid. The Commission is simply standing
firm on the need for open and transparent processes that are not likely to mislead.
For however much real estate professionals may like to believe otherwise, consumers
do not necessarily understand the terminology used at auctions or have the ability to
readily discern between truth and deceit. It is important that the Commission reminds
all real estate professionals that the provisions of the Trade Practices Act are
unchanged by any regulatory debate going on at State or Territory level.
The Commission has also made it very clear that vendors may be at risk of action
under the Act if they knowingly allow dummy bids or other deceptive practices to be
engaged in by vendors’ agents when offering their properties for sale.
We have recently seen a marked change in behaviour by real estate agents regarding
dummy bids. This is very pleasing and is a positive outcome for consumers.
The reaction from real estate agents and their associations across Australia has been
strong and continued Commission monitoring will ensure that changed behaviour is
not temporary.
Change in behaviour by industry has benefits for consumers and the industry itself
whose reputation can only be enhanced by fair and ethical behaviour."
"The good news is that the dummy bidding laws may be the best in Australia. Auctioneers will be required to "announce all vendor bids". The Real Estate Institute of Victoria yesterday described this as "unfair". The institute wants "undisclosed" vendor bids to be allowed. However, it seems the government has realised that an "undisclosed vendor bid" and a "dummy bid" are the same.
Dummy bidding is an essential component of auctions. It is like a spark plug to an engine. After all, how do you have an auction with only one bidder? Agents need dummy bidders in order to fool both sellers and buyers into believing there are more bidders. Now that they will have announce their dummy bids, they don't like it.
Continuing with its blatant and shameless hypocrisy yesterday, the Institute President said, "Property sellers have rights too." Yes, they sure do; and the government is finally doing something meaningful to protect their rights. It is denying agents the right to give false quotes and the right to fool them with dummy bidding.
There is no better proof that these new laws are good for consumers than the Real Estate Institute's confession yesterday that it was "disappointed" the Government did not accept the Institute's "preferred option". The Government will not allow the agents who cheat consumers to set the laws.
Consumers can be thankful that agents who have been cheating them for years may soon find it harder to cheat. The proposed new laws are a huge improvement on the status quo."
Dummy bidding
One real estate practice that has achieved a great deal of media attention is that of “dummy bidding”
which refers to bidding at an auction by those who have no genuine intention to buy. The real estate
industry at large would distinguish this from vendor bidding whereby the vendor bids either on their
own behalf or though an auctioneer or agent up to but not including a preset reserve selling price.
Such bidding by an auctioneer on behalf of a vendor has been described colloquially as the “pulling of
bids”. Most in the industry would agree that dummy bidding at auctions is misleading and that it
should be specifically prohibited. However views regarding vendor bids are more equivocal. Many in
the industry would argue that vendor bidding creates momentum in auctions and that the vendor bid
equates to the vendor’s counter offer in a private treaty negotiation. As such vendors should not be
placed in a worse position in auction sales than they enjoy in private treaty sales negotiations.
However others recognise that many auctions especially in the recent buoyant market, may only
attract one genuine bidder and that the reserve is flexible and often adjusted during the course of an
auction. Prospective buyers may be effectively bidding against themselves and where a reserve is set
unrealistically high (ie over the agent’s estimated market value), the vendor may bid over an
estimated market value of the property (Reed et al 2002).
Most states have considered that while it can be accepted that the vendor bid has a valid role in
protecting the vendor’s right to negotiate the best deal possible on their property, to the extent that
any such undisclosed bid achieves this by misleading bidders, reform is warranted for consumer
protection. Thus as a minimum there should be a requirement for vendor bids to be disclosed and
recorded as vendor bids. The number of such permitted bids has varied but most jurisdictions have of
late sought the registration of all bidders, the recording of bids including vendor bids and the
recording of an agreed reserve price.
NSW has recently enacted legislation requiring all bidders to register and that auctioneers only take
bids from registered bidders who are identified by displaying a number assigned on registration. Bids
are to be recorded in a bidders record with reference to that identifying number. Vendors are
restricted to one bid only on their behalf provided the auction conditions notify that the seller or
auctioneer reserves the right to bid and the auctioneer identifies the bid as taken by or on behalf of
the vendor or auctioneer.6 In Queensland auctioneers are required to use their best endeavours to
register all bidders.7
Amendments have recently been passed to Victorian legislation specifically prohibiting the making and
accepting of dummy bids and undisclosed vendor bids. All vendor bids are to be made via the
auctioneer and the auctioneer will be required to declare the bid as a vendor bid by using the words
“vendor bid”. If a property is passed in and the highest bid was a vendor bid, agents will be precluded
from stating the amount of the highest bid without also stating that the bid was a vendor bid. 8
Property suctions in the ACT are also to be changed significantly by a recently introduced bill which
will prohibit dummy bidding and restrict the number of vendor bids to only one 9. It is also proposed
to introduce a requirement for bidders to register similar to the requirements introduced in NSW. If
the Bill is passed the regulations are expected to start in July 2004.
In SA it can be argued that dummy bidding by agents is prohibited already under the Fair Trading Act,
which provides that it is an offence to make a misleading representation in relation to the price
payable for land. However it has been determined that a more specific prohibition against dummy
bidding is required for certainty. Under new proposed legislation for 2004 it will be an offence for any
person to make or procure a dummy bid as well as for an auctioneer to knowingly take or procure a
dummy bid. These changes will require amendment to the Land Agents Act 1994 (for agents &
auctioneers) and the Land and Business (Sale and Conveyancing) Act 1995 for members of public.
Bidders will be required to register and auctioneers will be required to identify all bids with reference
to the bidders registration number, which is to be clearly displayed. One bid only is to be permitted on
behalf of the vendor, which is to be clearly identified as a vendor bid. The agent/sales representative
is to be required to record the agreed reserve and document any changes to the reserve, in writing
prior to commencement of the auction. The agent/sales representative is to be required to make and
keep a record of all bids made at auction, and identify which bids were vendor bids. Agent are to be
required to retain the register of bidders, record of bids and documentation evidencing the reserve for
a reasonable period of time to facilitate the later scrutiny of the auction process.
BTW....What a strange performance. Meaning?
An over-the-top reaction Cupie. It's a discussion forum isn't it........with rules. You know, rules that members are supposed to adhere to.
Seems like anything goes here hey?
That might make Bazza [removed] happy
And people complain about eBay moderation.
Countess this throws up the question to me if an ebay auction is listed from victoria. I bid in Queensland for a friend in New Zealand. Item auctioned is being posted from Singapore . And ebay servers are in California while ebay bills seller from switzerland.
What country or state law applies?
"Silver-tongued" - to be skilled with words; flattering; adept and eloquent.