Oz Round Table

The Oz Round Table boards => The Round Table => Topic started by: ernest_price on October 21, 2009, 11:01:26 PM

Title: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: ernest_price on October 21, 2009, 11:01:26 PM: Must be that season again when the non-payers come out of hibernation.

Getting quite a few of late and, frustratingly, all similar ethnicity, which is sad on the surface of it [is it a language issue eBay needs to resolve?], but may just be a cultural thing. All '0' feedback and all make a few purchases at once but don't make contact or pay. Easy to track them to another seller and see if that seller is having any luck. Invariably not.

At what point do you give up?

Here? Usually if no payment and then no response to my 5 day payment reminder.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *smee* on October 21, 2009, 11:11:20 PM: never give up , if it goes over the week hound them with emails etc until they at least respond with a bs story , the more sellers who bombard these dolphin waxers with reminder invoices and emails requesting payment the less likeky they are to do it again . Email them . physically post them invoices ring them do whatever a normal business would do , you will be surprised at the success rate I have had from "touching base" with bad debtors ... sure I have been told stories but I have been paid for every single transaction on Ebay expcept 1 and that was when Paypal stuffed up the transaction as per my thread from a few months ago ....
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *CountessA* on October 21, 2009, 11:30:20 PM: If a buyer doesn't respond at all within 7 days (with friendly reminders sent), I think you could mark that buyer as a problem - and proceed swiftly with a strike.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *smee* on October 21, 2009, 11:34:03 PM: the thing is you cant move swiftly with a strike for starters you have to wait 7 days b4 you can even start the process and then you have to wait another 8 days to issue a strike so all up 15 days
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *CountessA* on October 21, 2009, 11:37:46 PM: All right - a hitman is probably a faster alternative.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *Yibida* on October 21, 2009, 11:42:37 PM: Quote from: countessa on October 21, 2009, 11:37:46 PM
All right - a hitman is probably a faster alternative.
You mean HitYib don't you countess?...(http://i691.photobucket.com/albums/vv277/area_51_bucket/untitled-5.jpg)
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *smee* on October 21, 2009, 11:42:38 PM: this is what makes me laugh when some sellers (usually ill informed power sellers who think they are above the rules) state all sorts of threats to buyers whom dont pay within 3 days ... truth be known they cant do J.S. about it other than send reminder invoices or call them.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: ernest_price on October 24, 2009, 07:55:10 PM: I think I got a 4 bunger the other day [ that probably dates me a little but hey :) ].

Terms included:

MUST [as in caps] pay within 3 days [ what about working days even? ]

Will be reported as NPB after 5 days [ ouch! ]

Once Australia Post has it it's your responsibility [ ouch ouch ouch ]

No returns for any reason [ oh what - not ANY reason like it's not as described? ]

... and this from someone with over 3,500 feedback at 98.2% .
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: tinker on October 24, 2009, 09:07:06 PM: Hello.

I have had more NPBs in the last few months, it's a pain but only for a small time.

Not something I lose too much time on.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: Centuries on October 24, 2009, 11:50:34 PM: If the non paying buyers are given enough strikes does that stop them bidding? Are they permitted to bid using a newly created ID? Or are they booted out permanently?
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *smee* on October 24, 2009, 11:51:53 PM: its supposed to be 2 strikes only Centuries but they can appeal them
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *FluffyDuckee* on October 24, 2009, 11:59:26 PM: Centuries, I would think they shouldn't be officially able/supposed to bid using another ID. I am basing that on the rule that if they are NARP they shouldn't come back to ebay via another id.

However, I would think that many bidders with strikes as well as many NARP ebay users do create another ID and keep going. If identified, I think ebay would possibly deal with them if they were reported, but it would have to actually be a proven identification.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: Centuries on October 25, 2009, 12:08:30 AM: Thanks smee and fluffy.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *FluffyDuckee* on October 25, 2009, 12:11:56 AM: You're welcome Centuries.

How about a hug?

:love:
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: Centuries on October 25, 2009, 12:32:03 AM: Big hug ;D

(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae234/acaciame/HugSmiley.gif)
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *smee* on October 25, 2009, 12:34:49 AM: hey you Gals .... what about me it isnt fair !
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *FluffyDuckee* on October 25, 2009, 12:36:18 AM: ;D

OK.

:grouphug:
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: Centuries on October 25, 2009, 02:11:13 AM: big hug for smee(http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae234/acaciame/HugSmiley.gif)
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *smee* on October 25, 2009, 02:14:28 AM: thank you Fluffy......... and Centuries a big special one mmmmmmmmmmm
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: tellomon on October 25, 2009, 04:32:58 AM: :topic: :topic: :topic: :topic: :topic: :topic: :topic: :topic: :topic: :topic:

:bigcalibre: (http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae234/acaciame/HugSmiley.gif) :rifle:
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 25, 2009, 07:43:05 AM: never give up , if it goes over the week hound them with emails etc until they at least respond with a bs story , the more sellers who bombard these dolphin waxers with reminder invoices and emails requesting payment the less likeky they are to do it again . Email them . physically post them invoices ring them do whatever a normal business would do , you will be surprised at the success rate I have had from "touching base" with bad debtors ...

Sorry Smee...can't agree with this at all. Under the Law, it has been demonstrated that Ebay's contract of sale is binding on the part of the seller....i.e. a seller listed a small plane, and then refused to sell it. The buyer took him to court over it and the seller was ordered to complete the sale. Must have been a great deal...lol........

This same scenario however, would never in my view, be upheld by a court against a buyer reneging on a purchase..in fact I think you'd find that NOBODY can force a buyer to complete a sale if they believe the 'contract of sale' has been breached in any way, and that's a very grey area. Item not as described, or breach of contract in other ways (e.g. seller's conduct) will void the terms or contract of sale immediately. You have to remember, We have CONSUMER protection laws against bad traders, not TRADER protection laws against bad consumers. lol. So, who has the of law on their side?

And.....NPB's are not 'Debtors'. You have provided absolutely no product, and no service, so the buyer couldn't be considered a 'debtor'. Maybe a reneger but not a debtor.

Maybe Ernest, if this is a pattern, then block new buyers up to a certain feedback level. Ebay can't make them pay, and neither can you, so it's best to have a contingency plan to avoid those 'types' of buyers.

Frankly I blame Ebay's greed for this scenario......The only process Ebay provides sellers with to pursue NPB's and achieve a refund of their FVF, is a strike system, which automatically inflames the buyer to leave a neg against the seller. Conveniently, sellers can't leave a neg feedback for that buyer in return, so it's all just bullshit. It's basically a system that acts as a disincentive for sellers to pursue NPB's, because for the sake of getting your FVF back, you take the risk of getting an undeserved neg. Ebay know that....they don't want to make it easy for you to get back your FVF.

Basically, If ebay implemented a system that enforced suspension and even NARU for serial NPB's, then the onus would be taken off the seller, to cop it sweet in every direction or lose money.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: tellomon on October 25, 2009, 07:47:23 AM: Conveniently, sellers can't leave a neg feedback for that buyer in return, so it's all just bullshit.

That part, I understand!!!!!

:chair:
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 25, 2009, 08:14:41 AM: :rofl: :brick:
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: tellomon on October 25, 2009, 08:34:13 AM: 100

:congrats:
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: Bazza on October 25, 2009, 08:43:38 AM: The only process Ebay provides sellers with to pursue NPB's and achieve a refund of their FVF, is a strike system

What about mutual cancellation? It's a far easier and more productive way of getting your FVF back and no waiting. There will always be NPB's. Buyers do change their mind and do make mistakes so why waste time on them. Just move them on.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 25, 2009, 08:55:33 AM: I agree Bazza, though you'll note that Ebay puts a comment that it is not advisable or words to that effect don't they?

I agree....no need to get your knickers in a knot.....if you get your FVF fees back....but...what about the listing fee? Do they refund that too? or do they stitch the seller?.....at the very least, the second listing fee waiver should apply shouldn't it? i.e. they should get their 2nd round of listing fees back if it sells the second time around?

Really, that's the only thing that irritates sellers, having to pay for it...otherwise, it wouldn't be a problem would it?

Ernest, why not contact them asking if they wish to proceed...no pressure, and if they don't reply, cut your losses and explain how a mutual cancellation is done...ebay don't make the link obvious...lol...funny that.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: Bazza on October 25, 2009, 09:06:30 AM: I don't think they actively discourage it Cupie but you do go through the resolution centre, same as you would to report a NPB.

The listing fee works as if the item didn't sell so you do get the credit if the item sells second time round.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 25, 2009, 09:34:04 AM: Well, Perhaps if sellers and buyers adopted that process, a lot of angst and unnecessary negs might be avoided.

Is there a link to the process itself? i.e. mutual cancellation? Wouldn't be a bad idea to have a thread on that subject here...how to avoid disputes via mutual cancellation.

I'm not saying it should be promoted, but in 8 years membership with Ebay, I've only ever used it twice because buyers are either unfamiliar with it, or sellers don't want to reach a resolution by using it. I guess once you realise that as a seller you can't force a buyer to purchase, then the only thing left to do is recoup your losses...?

Then an NPB, will only cost you a listing fee that might be recouped on the second round.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: Bazza on October 25, 2009, 09:50:57 AM: There's some info about it here Cupie.

http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/sell/cancel-transaction-process.html
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 25, 2009, 10:32:49 AM: Thanks Bazza..
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *smee* on October 25, 2009, 10:44:16 AM: Good morning Cupie , I agree with what you are saying , however I dont believe it is possible for a buyer to make a mistake ... there are far too many key strokes required to make a bid or a buy it now for it to have been done by a cat standing on keyboard etc , plus they get all sorts of emails etc and it shows on their my ebay page etc , so I reckon they know they have bid or bought ... So I send them invoices etc and as I said I have never had a buyer who hasnt paid within the 'ebay required time' So really its horses for courses I guess ... but having said that if a buyer responded to the first invoice or any invoice or message for that matter and simply said they no longer wanted to go through with purchase I would happily mutually cancel , its the rude f#####s that get up sellers skirts , the ones who win and dont respond at all as far as I can make out and you obviously cant do a mutual cancellation if they dont respond you have to wait till the 15th day minimum after sale before you can get fvf back and relist if they dont respond.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *CountessA* on October 25, 2009, 10:45:09 AM: I have a problem with "mutual cancellation" when it gives bad buyers a let-out.

One of the measures in place with eBay to deal with non-paying bidders (and by this I mean buyers who just happily tot up a page full of purchases, or the occasional purchase every week, but have NO INTENTION of paying for it, thus wasting the seller's time, putting off legitimate bidders, and tying up the seller's money as well (even though it might be retrievable, it's temporarily unavailable). The seller is also losing the potential money in the short-term; anticipating the total being paid once the item is sold, it may be the hobby seller pays a bill which could have waited another week, counting on the payment to be able to pay for his petrol. You can see the potential problems here. And it's no good saying the seller is stupid for anticipating the money; we all function "in anticipation". People earning salaries function on the anticipation of next week's salary. Merchants anticipate that the merchant account they've set up with credit card providers will transfer the money paid by customers via those credit cards to the merchant business account. People performing on contract anticipate their payment. People paying their medical bills anticipate the Medicare refund. Especially for those on a tight income, there may be little alternative but to anticipate that a buyer will perform his end of the contract and actually PAY for the item they've agreed to buy.

Should the whole flow of fiscal anticipation grind to a halt in the case of sellers anticipating buyers to pay on eBay? No. No. NO. I very, very strongly object to this.

If every seller on eBay has to think that a sale is not a sale, that's quite a period of hiatus.

It's incredibly time-wasting to have to go after those bad buyers.

Bad buyers give many buyers a bad name.

A genuine case of the buyer having to ask the seller to allow a little extra time may end up starting from the vantage point of the seller already being mistrustful, having been "burned" many times before.

A genuine case of a payment going to a wrong bank account (one digit wrong) could be seen as a feeble excuse instead of legitimate, if sellers have to deal with bad buyers all the time who are very adept at either stalling or simply ignoring all attempts to get them to pay. Upset sellers make split-second decisions out of concern, bad experience and annoyance. This annoys legitimate buyers... and so on. Everyone becomes annoyed and touchy.

It's rude; it's unfair; it's indefensible behaviour. I have NO problem at all with a bad buyer who does this sort of thing being given an NPB strike. I think such buyers are not suited to eBay because it's unfortunately not set up in eBay to require that someone complete their purchase in a timely fashion. They think of the "you've won" notification as being a sort of "can you put that on hold for me?" request, with no obligation on their part to follow through. It's bad behaviour, and I don't blame sellers for being testy and trying to ensure timely payment. I do think some sellers don't know how to achieve this properly, and only succeed in annoying potential buyers with their unenforceable demand that a buyer pay within 3 days.

"MUTUAL CANCELLATION" is designed to be used when a buyer has a genuine reason (or the seller has a genuine reason) for not proceeding with the sale. I should say "a genuine EXTRAORDINARY" reason. It shouldn't be used when a buyer's just found a cheaper or better item elsewhere, or decides he's changed his mind, or has just spent so much on another win that he doesn't want to spend any more. Those aren't extraordinary reasons. Buyers can't be forced to follow through with purchasing, true - but why should they get away with wasting everyone's time and putting the seller into a disadvantageous position completely?

These reasons are why I believe the NPB strike is the only way to handle a non-paying bidder who doesn't have a genuine extraordinary reason for not going ahead.

Acceptable reasons would be along these lines: sudden loss of income; robbery; having died; being kidnapped without access to a computer; the seller's item is subsequently discovered to be fraudulent or in bad condition or the seller's feedback suddenly drops; the buyer has legitimate reason to suspect the seller of not offering the goods or service as described in timely fashion; the goldfish REALLY DID leap out of the fishbowl and flop about on the computer keyboard to enter the winning bid.

If the buyer's lost income or security or been robbed or had a flopping goldfish, it's up to the buyer to communicate with the seller. It's not fair to leave the seller hanging.

If the buyer's lost confidence in the seller, he should communicate with an offer of mutual cancellation on the grounds of the transaction not bearing scrutiny, to avoid potential SNAD disputes - OR report the seller to eBay if it's serious and a case of fraud.

If the buyer's been kidnapped, he should not be bidding on other items during this period. (Ditto if the buyer's been ill and put in hospital; sympathy for an ill person is natural and right, but sympathy fades like dew in the dawn if the hospitalised person has been racking up 20 other purchases in their bidding activity, since clearly the "hospitalisation" doesn't stop the person from accessing the computer and making electronic payments and even - lord help us - communicating with his sellers.)

If the buyer's died, his account will need of course to be reported to eBay if it shows signs of moribund activity. FRAUD! Someone's hacked into the deceased's account! Alert! Alert! (Genuine cases of death are different to fake assertions of death simply to get out of paying for a won item.)

Thus - legitimate and good reason for not paying should result in mutual cancellation.

Unsatisfactory non-payment without a reasonable excuse and without response should result in NPB strike.

NPB strikes given to someone who's a serial non-payer should not be lifted.

Wasting people's money and time is not fair behaviour.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: Bazza on October 25, 2009, 10:56:41 AM: In an ideal world countess, yes I would agree. The distance between online buyers and sellers creates a whole different playing field and needs to be treated as such. Online selling has it's conveniences and it's pitfalls and sellers need to take the bad with the good.

I like smees way of dealing with NPB's but I can't afford that time.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *CountessA* on October 25, 2009, 11:14:39 AM: Bazza, how long do you generally give NPBs?

There are some sellers who attract NPBs to a horrific extent, and what works for one seller probably isn't the best procedure for another.

Of course I'm speaking from a "moral outrage" point of view, which necessarily isn't based on best practice! *sheepishly admits it but crosses arms and stays on soapbox lest someone take it to stuff cakes of soap inside it*
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 25, 2009, 11:19:45 AM: Hey smee...I know what you're saying...it's annoying as hell to go to all that trouble only to have an NPB....but it's also expensive. I'm just saying when it's clear they're not going to pay, it might be best to agree to cancel the sale.

There's no doubt people bid on purpose...I don't think the old cat pressed the button excuse really washes does it?...lmao. Just saying, why get to the point where you end up with a neg because a buyer is a pratt.

And I agree with you....when a buyer doesn't respond....issuing a strike is sometimes the only option for a seller to get their FVF's back, but it shouldn't be that way Smee....you know yourself that you risk a neg for no reason because the system itself is flawed. Buyers are notoriously unreliable.....
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 25, 2009, 11:32:34 AM: Countessa I just want to reiterate that it's next to impossible to enforce Ebay's contract of sale on the buyer....I agree with Bazza....as a seller of many years, you have to cut your losses and get on with it after making at least a first attempt. I've had buyers who have been put in hospital and couldn't pay....those who were called away with work, and paid when they returned home and various other life issues that get in the way when we've made other plans. As Smee and Ernest have demonstrated previously..if you contact the buyer courteously....it may work itself out without fuss...but if you come on strong.....the buyer is likely to tell you to take a hike. I would.

Look...Let's just say you go to a retail site like Chaos music...and you go shopping there putting a whole lot of things in your shopping basket, and at the end, you decide not to go ahead with the purchase......Should Chaos be allowed to make you purchase? Would they last long if they did?

And then extending that to Ebay...I've bought items where a seller has said they'd combine for weight price and then after the auctions end, slugged with double the postage? Like, that's what I call breach of contract. In that instance, I will very much tell a seller to go take a flying leap. If they issue a strike..so what....I'm not going to be extorted into paying double the postage over a threat....and it's not entirely legal under Consumer Protection laws to threaten or extort a consumer into a purchase...just saying.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: tellomon on October 25, 2009, 11:33:05 AM: Buyers are notoriously unreliable.....

SLAM!!!!!

Sure glad I'm NOT one of those anymore!

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/eBay%20nasty%20pix-gifs/ebay_sucks-1.jpg)
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: tinker on October 25, 2009, 07:02:21 PM: you know yourself that you risk a neg for no reason because the system itself is flawed. Buyers are notoriously unreliable.....

The buyer can't leave FB at all once a NPB strike is given, which is a good thing IMO.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *CountessA* on October 25, 2009, 07:21:37 PM: Tinker, true - but it's not difficult for a buyer who knows the system to have an NPB strike lifted. (Someone I know did this to an astonishing degree. I can't give details except to say he used excuses such as "worried about dealing with seller", "just lost my job and can't pay", "tried communicating with seller who was rude", etc., etc. (or in words to that effect - not exactly the same words he used).)

Ah, sellers, think about this: if you are kind and simply give a bad buyer the opportunity for "mutual cancellation", the buyer can give you negative feedback - and it won't be removed by eBay.

He can also refuse to agree to the mutual cancellation request. If he does so, you will lose your FVF. (At least, I've heard that this is so. Can someone confirm, or correct me if I am wrong here?)

I think the whole buying and selling process on eBay has to be considered as markedly different to other purchasing, such as purchasing from a b&m shop. I know what you're saying, Cupie - and of course I agree that the sale isn't final until the goods are received and payment made. But in a b&m shop, the shop owner loses absolutely nothing if a buyer puts goods into a shopping trolley or basket, then ends up not buying them. (It might get the seller's hopes up, of course!) But an eBay seller does lose something.

1. He loses the advertising opportunity for which he's paid. The listing ends; other potential buyers outbid move on; he can't relist immediately - he has to wait until he knows that the buyer isn't going to buy, and that might take 2 weeks.
2. He loses the other interested buyers. As far as they are concerned, the item is sold.
3. He loses time (as said, it could be 2 weeks or more).

Some sellers who sell small items or are a large business are probably not affected by that to any major extent. But hobby sellers may well be affected. They're also the sort of sellers to be least able to defend themselves in a gone-wrong transaction.

Getting back to the shop analogy... I've just thought of this: the situation is more analogous, I think, to someone placing an order for a completely obscure book or something like that; something which the shop must order in specially. If the person ordering is not asked for a deposit when making the order, and tells the shop when informed the book's arrived that "Oh, I don't want it anymore", that's not fair behaviour. I've even heard of people who did have to give a deposit when ordering, and who asked for their DEPOSIT BACK when they changed their minds!

On the subject of people paying later - yes, I've heard some very lovely anecdotes about patient sellers who did finally hear from their buyers, and found that the delay was due to some sort of disaster. Remember when the bushfires and floods created so much worry, grief and upset? So many sellers, fearing that their buyers were in affected areas, tried to give the highest degree of understanding and helpfulness; ditto for buyers who showed the utmost patience and concern rather than annoyance if they felt their sellers were in some of those dangerous areas.

We all pulled together, all of Australia.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: Poddy on October 25, 2009, 07:23:43 PM: Tinker, have you overlooked the fact the a buyer can leave feedback as soon as the auction or BIN ends?

No waiting! No delay! Get your red hot neg here
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 25, 2009, 07:29:53 PM: Here's a beauty for the shoe being on the other foot....I bid on an item the other night and the auction ended, but the item went kapoof...So I emailed the seller to ask what happened to my bid....this was her reply.

Hi there,
I wasnt willing to sell the doll for this amount,so I will be
relisting it with a higher reserve.
thanks for your interest.

As a consumer....so much for the so called Ebay contract of sale? Now how do you report a non performing seller these days?
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: Bazza on October 25, 2009, 07:34:19 PM: Bazza, how long do you generally give NPBs?

5 days countess. They get a friendly reminder after two days if no contact made. then the offer to cancel on the 5th day. If no response after 7 days, the FVF is refunded. If they agree, no problem and I move on.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: tinker on October 25, 2009, 07:35:16 PM: Countessa & Poddy, yes that's very true. It's one of those things that is in the back of many seller's minds after each sale, "is this one going to be the one"

I didn't know it was so easy to have them lifted.

I'm not sure how many strikes it takes to get banned, does anyone know?
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: tinker on October 25, 2009, 07:39:13 PM: I like smees way of dealing with NPB's but I can't afford that time.

Sorry Bazza but not issuing a strike is just laziness IMO, that allows them to get away with breaking the rules. I feel we have an obligation to prevent them from going and doing it to another seller and the only way to do this is by issuing a NPB strike. IMO
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: Bazza on October 25, 2009, 08:02:06 PM: You are entitled to your opinion Tinker. If I don't receive a payment for an item, I know I need to sell it to someone else. That's what matters to me. Not giving strikes to buyers who may wish to buy from me in the future. Strikes are overated.

Laziness??? Some opinions are best kept to yourself. *shrugs*
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *CountessA* on October 25, 2009, 08:07:36 PM: Every seller will find a strategy that works best for him/herself.

I am sure that there's a great deal of thought given to the issue when a seller has to cope with it regularly, and it's partly due to the type of items being sold.

The number of strikes to get someone banned is unknown, if I recall correctly. It does take two strikes (in general or for all sellers? Not sure which) before sellers are able to block such buyers by setting their buyer preferences in my eBay.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: Poddy on October 25, 2009, 08:13:18 PM: As with all infractions and transgressions of rules and laws, if the perpetrator is allowed to go unwarned then that is a green light for them to push even further. It also signals that the infraction is an acceptable activity.

A lot of people just cant be bothered to see justice done because they consider that it takes too much effort, I blame that type of person for a big portion of the mess our society is in now in this ME, ME, ME, money driven society.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *smee* on October 25, 2009, 08:18:44 PM: I think that once a person gets 3 x npb's there should be a public stoning of them all proceeds from the selling of bags of stones to go to the sellers who have been 'bundahed'

or worse still maybe they should get sent to 'ebay classes' in Bondi

That would put a stop to their little games
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: tinker on October 25, 2009, 08:18:59 PM: *shrugs*??

OK so you're happy to let a NPBer get away with messing sellers around and wasting there time?

Do you care that others will face this person too?

The strike function is there for a reason.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: tinker on October 25, 2009, 08:20:50 PM: Quote from: smee on October 25, 2009, 08:18:44 PM
I think that once a person gets 3 x npb's there should be a public stoning of them all proceeds from the selling of bags of stones to go to the sellers who have been 'bundahed'

or worse still maybe they should get sent to 'ebay classes' in Bondi

That would put a stop to their little games

LOL!
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: Bazza on October 25, 2009, 08:21:48 PM: We are talking about buying and selling on ebay arent we?

Society's ills run a bit deeper than NPB's.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *CountessA* on October 25, 2009, 08:24:31 PM: Just a reminder to keep the discussion focused on the issue rather than making it personal... Thanks.

I strongly believe that the best way of dealing with NPBs is to issue a strike. I also strongly believe that sellers should not be stripped, whipped, tossed into a barrel of oil and another barrel full of maggoty flour, strung up, crumbed and then fried for choosing not to issue a strike. Individuals have freedom of choice.

It's a pity, because all the oil and flour I have here will go to waste, but there it is. The whole freedom of choice thing...
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 25, 2009, 08:27:26 PM: I agree bazza :drama:

So who are we covering with flour?.....I like the public stoning scenario better....it's monty pythonesque.......All I said was Jehovah
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: mandurahmum on October 25, 2009, 08:27:42 PM: I am only a buyer, so I cant imagine how frustrating it can be for sellers. I like to pay immediately and if not certainly within 48 hours.

ebay does need to do something about non paying buyers, as a lot seem to be involved in shill bidding, and they are just time wasters. I hate the thought of not winning an item that I wanted, and if it is because of a time waster then I am more annoyed.

I think two strikes and your out, more than 10 bid retractions in 6 months - your out. I have never retracted a bid, no need to for me I am careful when placing my bids. I have never not paid a seller either.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: Bazza on October 25, 2009, 08:28:47 PM: Do you care that others will face this person too?

What? So you think I should waste my time getting buyers banned from ebay? Chances are that these people have or will actually buy something on ebay. Please try to keep in mind. It's not a sale unless money has changed hands.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *smee* on October 25, 2009, 08:31:11 PM: Ok well now I am confused .... So If I shill bid my auctions and dont pay myself I have to either issue myself with a NPB strike and get publicly stoned or sent to ebondi and if I dont strike my self I end up getting dipped, stripped whipped and tossed (which sounded good up until this point) into a barrell of oil and of maggoty flour and strung up and crumbed and fried ..... hmmmmmmmm

The good thing is though my listings will progress on the best match list !!!!! yipeee !!!
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 25, 2009, 08:32:17 PM: Goody...we're back to the public stoning....in Bondi....nice place to get stoned I guess....lmao.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *CountessA* on October 25, 2009, 08:35:14 PM: I will be glad to do the stripping, whipping, coating and stoning. I'll try to use soft stones. But the fryer is on the blitz - I cannot fry anyone!

(Pythonesque? You're right. Most of my best lines are MP's, and I've simply... er... well... borrowed them - but I always put them back afterwards.)
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: mandurahmum on October 25, 2009, 08:39:40 PM: Ok well now I am confused .... So If I shill bid my auctions and dont pay myself I have to either issue myself with a NPB strike and get publicly stoned or sent to ebondi and if I dont strike my self I end up getting dipped, stripped whipped and tossed (which sounded good up until this point) into a barrell of oil and of maggoty flour and strung up and crumbed and fried ..... hmmmmmmmm

you told me you liked that sort of stuff
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: Poddy on October 25, 2009, 08:42:25 PM: but I always put them back afterwards.)

Unaltered or embellished with eloquent verbosity?
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: tellomon on October 25, 2009, 08:44:20 PM: The strike function is there for a reason.

Not as good as 2-way Feedback!

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/eBay%20nasty%20pix-gifs/Feedback/COYOTE.jpg)

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/eBay%20nasty%20pix-gifs/Feedback/neg-em-all-nuke.gif)
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: Poddy on October 25, 2009, 08:52:42 PM: And on the eighth day god created ebay

You would think that by the eighth he would have learnt from his mistakes ;D
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *CountessA* on October 25, 2009, 09:06:27 PM: It's verbose, no doubt about it. *guilty shrug*
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: Roo on October 25, 2009, 09:56:48 PM: Quote from: *Cupie* on October 25, 2009, 07:29:53 PM
Here's a beauty for the shoe being on the other foot....I bid on an item the other night and the auction ended, but the item went kapoof...So I emailed the seller to ask what happened to my bid....this was her reply.

Hi there,
I wasnt willing to sell the doll for this amount,so I will be
relisting it with a higher reserve.
thanks for your interest.

As a consumer....so much for the so called Ebay contract of sale? Now how do you report a non performing seller these days?

Cupie...when you said the listing went 'poof'!...did you mean that it was no longer visible?

If that is the case, maybe the listing was removed by Ebay? Because of an infringement perhaps?

It's just that listings are still visible after they have finished...unless Ebay remove them....no matter if the seller doesn't want to go ahead.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *CountessA* on October 25, 2009, 10:15:04 PM: Here's the page (http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/policies/seller-non-performance.html) about the conditions by which a seller on eBay must abide.

Here's the link (http://contact.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ContactUs&wftype=77ef5e1230356eb5&bcrumb=e8cea7277b0917a50ef5c3a5fdc7798a25e80c8bcc681e2d3d52735b7455cd08b39088e5dd46114728a0744710aec86d30a7622d0839be2b141fdc02831f99acc6865cce8d56e024fc6730ad0859fceb8003ea9969dce7090bb353a4b0cc233d0402be49a1839738e0af51645db56fba288ad3c163d85bd9b92224e6cb695619036d86d2b64d004e9de4671ea9d33574e7e76469268245e4e83687611cc3b0968b06b9c42bbc90f3c918ad82caa8f33d757d6d2cb821025d&subject=882ee65d77a554f7df6dd5d97be47892d6b1301f203b62a4&rcode=b4d0df7da815ca7de8c918ea5009eef2) for reporting sellers who don't abide by those conditions.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: tellomon on October 25, 2009, 10:15:24 PM: Listings aren't the only things that go poof.

:biggirlpants:

C):-{= <" tello, you ashhold! leave roo alone, on this thread..... and sack her good on the next one LOL! "<<
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *Yibida* on October 25, 2009, 10:45:48 PM: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up? => when the blood stops flowing.......... :bigcalibre: NPB
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: Bazza on October 25, 2009, 11:58:37 PM: Effective as of last Friday:

http://pages2.ebay.com.au/InsideSelling/Unpaid_Items_Process/
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *smee* on October 26, 2009, 12:04:43 AM: Thanks Bazz, interesting 4 days wait now not 7 to open dispute ... I hope they are informing buyers then that payment is expected within 4 days ??? I doubt it though
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: mandurahmum on October 26, 2009, 12:40:59 AM: that seems like a good thing
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 26, 2009, 09:36:15 AM: No roo, Ebay didn't remove it the seller did...but I don't think I can get her for non performance. I bid on her item and because she didn't get any more bids, she simply removed it herself...as above, I emailed her and asked what had happened, and she replied thus:

Hi there,
I wasnt willing to sell the doll for this amount,so I will be
relisting it with a higher reserve.
thanks for your interest.

So, in effect, she is a non performing seller, but I can't neg her...I still want to report her to Ebay because basically, you can't just pull an item because you didn't get enough for it?...but hey it's ebay....everyone whinges about buyers not paying, but what of sellers who CONSTANTLY do the dodgy on Buyers?.....?????

By all rights, she should not have been allowed to remove the listing once a bid had been registered....but it's a different ballgame when sellers decide they don't want to sell....just saying, it ain't all one sided.....some sellers are absolute pratts.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: mandurahmum on October 26, 2009, 01:03:47 PM: I have had a similar experience with a seller that I won an item off. After I won and paid (I paid straight away) I got a message the next day saying they had "lost" the item. I did not report them as a non performing seller, but I probably should have - They relisted a week later. I tried to bid on it - and I had been blocked.

Emailed ebay about it - nothing happened though
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 26, 2009, 05:46:09 PM: Here's an example of the flipside of this threads topic....

I bought an item, along with several other items which have long since been paid for and on their way.....when I tried to pay for this one however, no bank deposit details in checkout...

so, being busy, I pay for the other items, and it gets to the weekend, and no invoice from the seller, so I go about my weekend, (no point paying till Sunday cause the bank doesn't deposit it till Monday), and first thing this morning....NPB case lodged. So I email the seller to ask, how he expected me to pay when his b/details are not in checkout where any buyer expects to find them, when trying to 'PAY' ?????....All the other sellers I purchased from had those details where they should be, and where obviously a buyer can't miss them when going thru checkout...so of course, they got paid.....quickly in fact.....

This was his reply: edited for privacy reasons:

Firstly i am (Ebay sellers) brother and am helping him out whilst he is overseas. Had you would have looked and read the description instead of looking at the pretty pictures only, you would have seen the banking details there...It was also in green text so it stood out....Anyway here is a copy and paste but not in green this time. here is the auction number

Have a most lovely day.....Regards (Total Imposter).

Condescending pratt isn't he? The type that give good sellers a bad name? But even worse....It's not his account, so why is he accessing it?

Does ebay allow account holders to give access to other parties? For all I know this sellers account could be hijacked...as it is, he's got buckley's chance of threatening me with piddly strikes given the circumstances, and even less chance of getting paid at this point.....see how the other side of the coin looks just as annoying?

Would you pay this seller?
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: mandurahmum on October 26, 2009, 07:00:35 PM: My first instinct is to say No I would not pay them - how rude are they. But in reality I would pay them - I would be thinking of my feedback that I was going to leave though.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 27, 2009, 06:24:48 AM: Then you must be much more trusting than I Jane. I use Bank Deposit, not Paypal, so when it comes to paying, I have ABSOLUTELY no redress against this pratt, and Ebay make sure of it. So I'd be a fool to pay him.

You see....he's breaking the rules, being overbearing, and thinking he can threaten me with a strike. He can bend over and bite his own arse before I'll be extorted into paying someone I don't trust.

So, I emailed Trust and Safety, advised them of the unwarranted NPB case over the sellers laziness, and sent a copy of his email admitting it was not his account. He then emailed me with a 'dubious' copy of a live chat, again threatening a strike, so I told him to knock himself out...strikes can be appealed.

I will be lodging a fair trading complaint against this seller and Ebay today...on principal alone, I'm mightily pissed off that a person is trying to threaten me using someone elses account with Ebay's anti consumer NPB system enabling him to achieve this type of extortion . I only hope that Ebay issue a strike because it places them squarely in the middle of any FT complaint for enabling this suspicious seller to extort and possibly even defraud a consumer....at threat of punitive strike against that consumer? Oh yeah, I can see FT upholding that....NOT !!

I DON'T generally leave neg feedback ...something about the feedback system makes me feel as though it is Ebay's way of wasting our time..... I'd prefer it if the feedback system from buyers added up against the seller in Ebay's records and that THEY did something to make sure the seller lifts their game..puts their b/deposit details in checkout, and refrains from using someone elses account...it's not my job to police frauds and shonks...it's theirs.

Now this would be an obvious occasion in which the seller could easily alleviate himself from this strife, by offering mutual cancellation...
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 28, 2009, 10:14:04 AM: Update from Ebay...I get an email this morning, acknowledging my advice that the seller is not in charge of his own account etc, and the fact that the bank details were not in Checkout etc....the usual dribble about privacy....and then quite unbelievably, they advise me to keep negotiating with this seller?...So, here's how I replied...

First of all, Ebay should provide a way to reply to emails from ebay....It's clear to me that there is no reply function because you simply don't want to deal with customer service and potential fraud issues. Secondly, are you people unable to comprehend your own site rules? You acknowledge that the seller in this case is allowing someone else to use his account, and yet you are advising me to keep discussing resolution with this imposter?..The account holder is breaching the UA allowing someone else access...obviously with Ebay's blessing? Any Contract of Sale that might have existed is long since voided by the sellers conduct, and you have the hide to advise me to complete the purchase?

Well, I tell ya what...when Ebay decide to protect all consumers equally, no matter what payment system they choose, then I might take the risk of being ripped off yet again, by one of your anonymous unverified shonk sellers...OK?

If a punitive strike is issued against my account when you are aware that this seller is dubious, (and equally that no redress or protection is offered to consumers of other payment systems), I will most definitely report you to fair trading and ACCC in that order.

It's no wonder consumers get so frustrated with your ad hoc idea of consumer safety and customer service, both are non existent.....and please...don't offend me further by advising me to join Paypal...I won't until they sign the EFT code and amend their UA.....

The issue is that Ebay DON'T protect consumers on their site if they use any other payment method. Attempting to coerce consumers into payment of an item, when you clearly know you'll provide me with NO REDRESS when I get ripped off, is downright unconscionable !!

You should be ashamed of yourselves...issue a strike, I couldn't care less if this is how Ebay treats long standing consumers.

I used to sell, now I don't...that's YOUR FAULT...you discriminate against anyone who prefers an Australian Payment method...that's obvious...I used to buy, but these days why bother, my choice of payment method automatically places me at risk of Ebay's shonky anonymous sellers?....unbelievable. GET THIS STRAIGHT...I WON'T BE PAYING THIS SELLER.

See how it's a different set of circumstances when the shoe is on the other foot? How many of you would pay this seller with bank deposit? Why should Bank Deposit customers be constantly placed at risk because of their 'choice' of payment system?.....

I suggested during the rebellion and afterwards that if Ebay offered a buyer protection program for other payment methods (as they do in the US) up to $250 for instance, then all consumers would be protected to that extent. Even to charge 50 cents to 1.00 on each purchase to pay for that insurance would make sense. By not providing at least this level of protection, Ebay is actually shooting itself in the foot. I'd spend more than I do, if I knew I had protection...without protection, I don't usually spend more than 50.00....can't take the risk. See how that works? Not everyone loves Paypal. I'd prefer Paymate, but I can't use it on ebay can I????...no...!!! Their greed will be their undoing eventually.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *smee* on October 28, 2009, 10:42:41 AM: Good morning Cupie , I suggest you stop pussyfooting around with this one and get serious ....

Im really going to put paypals protection policy to the test , as is all the go now I am going to buy something off myself (appenntly that helps with your best match) I am going to pay myself by paypal and post to my self via Aust post , then I am going to tell Paypal that seller smee never posted to buyer smee and start a paypal shitfight between seller and buyer eventually paypal will have to refund one of the Smee's , in the interim I will also lodge a lost item claim with Aust post , if all goes well its a win win win situation for Smee , I end up getting paid by Paypal , I end up getting paid by Aust Post , I still have the item , I get my fvf refunded I can relist and get a refund on insertion fees if it sells the next time and also the item rockets up the listing page and on top of all that the real bonus is potential customers that have their eyes glued to my listings 24 hours a day with falsely think my items are moving quickly and will they rush in and buy off me and pay more than they otherwise would have ... I cant believe I havent thought of this before its a licence to print money ....

And do you know whats really sad .... some people would actually believe its possible ...

***modified ... I added this bit later so on topic***
Seller Smee will then issue buyer Smee with a npb on another Item I bought from myself (but Didnt pay) and then buyer Smee with attempt to get the npb removed and see how easy it is to get what is a warranted npb strike removed
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 28, 2009, 10:54:37 AM: So what's that got to do with a dodgy seller threatening an NPB strike? as opposed to a good seller, wrestling over whether and when they should issue a strike?...... Wrong thread I think...
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *smee* on October 28, 2009, 11:08:41 AM: yeah your right sorry I will modify post so its strickly on topic
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 28, 2009, 11:17:04 AM: Not at all, it was quite humourous, made me laugh......just think the continuation of that particular saga has little to do with this one...
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *smee* on October 28, 2009, 11:20:57 AM: no it doesnt , not one little bit , I will try to not let it happen again , in fact I shall ask a mod to remove the post to the Sin bin

Are you able to this Cupie or do I need to message admin ?
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *CountessA* on October 28, 2009, 11:38:45 AM: It's not sinful enough to go to the Sin Bin.

I'm still waiting for two books to arrive from Germany. It's been over two months. Without communication from one of the sellers in response to my request for a tracking number, it doesn't give me a great deal of confidence.

When it comes to paying for things, I believe in the old adage, "You want it, you pay for it." I can count on one hand the number of times it's taken me more than 12 hours to pay for something won at auction online.

What's the rationale with buyers who do take a little longer to pay? I can understand it when someone is bidding on another item (or more than 1 other item), and wants to combine postage - but in other cases, I'm not exactly sure why people would delay.

These are the possibilities that make sense:

1. It's the weekend and the buyer will be paying by bank deposit. Perfectly understandable; you can't go to the bank and pay when the bank's closed.
2. The buyer is bidding on other items being sold by the same seller, and wishes to have combined postage (offered by the seller).
3. The buyer has just had his credit card stolen and his account emptied. The bank will be refunding him but he's temporarily in the midden.
4. The buyer has had an unexpected LARGE bill, and needs a bit of time to juggle financially.
5. The buyer is paying by cheque or money order, and the vagaries of the mail may mean a bit of a delay.

It would make sense for the buyer to communicate with the seller in most of those cases, wouldn't it?

If the delay is not for any of those reasons (communicated to the seller if the delay will be more than 3 days), why would a buyer delay? Are there other reasons I haven't envisaged?
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *Yibida* on October 28, 2009, 11:43:00 AM: Ah favoritism eh?...if it was me and tello we'd be in the sin bin at the blink of an eye...ok.. so thats the way it is ?...mmmmmm..I'm gunna Neg someone ! :)
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *smee* on October 28, 2009, 11:59:55 AM: that appears to be a fair assesment Countess of reasons why a buyer wouldnt pay promptly .... these are the ones that I was refering to way back up there ^^^^^^ when I said I bombard them with reminder invoices etc , I as a seller have no problems if a buyer messaged me before bidding or even after winning item with a story whether it be true or untrue as to why they cant pay straight away and is it ok to pay in 5 days or 7 days or 10 days or whatever , I dont care if they pay off a $1 week until settled as long as they have the decentcy to keep me informed and once and arrangement is agreed to they honour that committment or again communicate ... this is how I dealt with bad debtors or slow payers in my real business life too ... if you are fair and reasonable you are more likely to get your money that not and after all that is the aim of the game to get paid ..... this is why I have never not be paid for an item ....
its all about communication , communication , communication .... by using this tool you can resolve a lot of issues in life ....

to nbp or not to nbp that is the question !

disclaimer : the views in this post are not neccessarily the views of this forum and any similarity to real life situation or any deceased person is purely coincidental ... it is however a tried and proven practise
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 28, 2009, 12:12:41 PM: It's the weekend and the buyer will be paying by bank deposit. Perfectly understandable; you can't go to the bank and pay when the bank's closed.

Similar limitation with b/deposit online.... if you don't pay for an item by Friday, possibly even Thursday midnight, the payment won't download till Monday....the bank obviously sends it on a weekend holiday to the short term money market.....When it's not the same bank, it can vary from 24 - 48 hours even during the week.

Other things that delay payment of course, is when a seller can't be bothered to ensure buyers have bank deposit details....in fact at one point, the majority of my purchases I had to email sellers to get the details.....most couldn't understand why they weren't in checkout? mmmmmhhhh!!! Ebay strikes again?

If you use Paypal, sure it's in your face, and instant (not that it seems they pay sellers very quickly with the e-cheques fiasco for instance)...another glitch that probably earned a lot of buyers NPB cases ???.

Yet another, is when your online bank is not available. I got delayed paying bills recently because of the security code feature being made mandatory.....they automatically sent it to a mobile I don't own anymore. By the time I figured it all out, it was two days on and the bank then reinstated my secret questions etc, till a security key was received.....shite happens.....

Then there's newbies.....unfamiliar with the ground rules that sellers seem to think are set in stone.....At least smee...you bother to email your buyers and ask....a lot of sellers don't...and some are downright pushy and rude.

BTW....people are not debtors until a service or product has been provided....just saying.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *smee* on October 28, 2009, 12:36:49 PM: BTW....people are not debtors until a service or product has been provided....just saying.

I fully understand that Cupie .... I do have an IQ higher than 7 ... despite the fact that I might not always come across that way ......
My use of the term bad debtor was to draw a comparision only ....
by bidding or clicking on buy it now or whatever the buyer has 'pledged' (is that the right word ? anyway Im sure you know what I mean) to pay so I see no reason why I shouldnt send them reminders etc if they havent followed through ....
A similar example being I rang telethon and pledged a donation of $1000 , I didnt send payment straight away they hadnt provided me with a product or a service but they sent me an invoice ,
I then had my accident and was hospialised this invoice got buried and I forgot about it and for sometime never paid the grand , I eventually got a notice from a debt collector ..... I did pay in the end but they certainly treated it as a debt rightfully or wrongfully (legally)and so did I because I made a comitment to donate .. you see life is not always about what is legally binding and what isnt sometimes it just comes down to what is correct morally
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 28, 2009, 12:52:02 PM: Smee, I don't think you can compare the two....one is a pledge the other involves a contract of sale....and when it comes to enforcing that on buyers, it's not the same thing. A contract of sale can be arguably voided, if the seller behaves in an unconscionable or unreasonable manner for instance.

In the example I'm dealing with, the seller fits that bill.

Every other seller I've dealt with lately had their details in checkout...I've had about 15 purchases lately, and only one idiot seller....not bad statistics in the long run is it? Recently though I had five sellers completely forget to register parcels, and for bank deposit customers that's just downright lazy...they know the risk for instance?....No paypal chargeback?...I had to email each and every one of them and chase up the rego fee?...real fun for consumers I don't think.

Also, if I'm debating an issue with you, or happen to make a comment that is in opposition to your beliefs or experience, I'm not implying anything about your IQ...OK?...we're just discussing an issue...both of us have different experiences with the same thing....as I said, most sellers I deal with are fine....I often include feedback stating 'Paid via b/deposit, reliable seller, AAA+++). In fact that's pretty standard for me.....B/deposit customers want to know a seller has been reliable with that payment method previously....in effect I'm doing them a favour leaving that feedback aren't I?.....B/deposit customers are an endangered consumer species on eBay. = E-Commerce Russian Roulette.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *smee* on October 28, 2009, 01:04:06 PM: Cupie , I agree with what you are saying about your particular seller , and you have every right not to pay under these circumstances ... at least you have communicated with him ........I am talking about sending reminders etc to a bidder who point blank refuses to touch base and let a seller know one way or the other whether they are going through with the purchase or not ... as I expained earlier in the thread up until this weeks changes of policy a seller had to wait at total of 15 days prior to issuing an nbp anyway so you might as well use this time wisely and send a few reminders or ring them or whatever and hopefully you get paid ( it has worked 100% of the time for me I have never ever had a non paying bidder) ... as said that is the ultimate aim to get paid and send item ....

Mind you I am sure the day will come when I dont get paid .... but I like to minimise the risk
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 28, 2009, 01:22:10 PM: I agree they're painful, but in that case, I'd have a two strike rule...email once to enquire, email the second time asking them to do a mutual cancellation, and instructing them how it's done...If there's still no response..then strike away.......Smee, some things on ebay are painfully time consuming to find and/or understand and buyers can't be expected to have read everything..particuarly newbies....so if a seller makes it easier to resolve, that's gotta be closer to a better outcome than wasting time on idiots.

At least in the mutual cancellation scenario, you can recoup fvf and relist, hopefully selling the second time around.....???

Let me ask though....If you've tried everything to recoup the fvf via mutual cancellation, Ebay don't really give you any other choice than to issue a strike, if for nothing else than to recoup losses?.

Can a buyer issued with a strike, leave feedback under any circumstances? If not, then it's perfectly justifiable for sellers to issue a strike with no communication or response from the buyer, but it's not reasonable if the buyer has been communicating as I have done...... If a buyer can leave feedback after a strike has been issued, then it really would make a seller think twice. In that case it would be a disincentive to issue a strike.

I'm not as up to date on that side of things any more......Things have changed a lot on ebay in two years since I stopped selling..it isn't what it used to be...way more complicated and stressful these days....What could they have been thinking....???. Innovative Disruption they call it..??
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *smee* on October 28, 2009, 01:36:18 PM: Cupie why would I offer a mutual cancellation ? as far as I know the buyer wants the item and is going to pay ! He hasnt given me any indication to the contrary other than to not pay within in a few days ... so why would I take the negative approach and assume they arnt going to ... no....I look for a way to finalise the transaction in my financial favour ... and its worked every time ( do I need to fabricate some spread sheets and tell lies to get believed on this or what ? )
...Cupie no seller wants to issue a NPB strike .... they want to be paid .... lets face it if buyer bid on on some thing then just do the right thing and pay or email the seller and advise that you dont want it now for whatever reason and none of the above thread would be an issue ... just dont not do anything .... Please !

I am not talking about instances like the one you have quoted where you had every intention of paying and the transaction has gone pear shaped for a number of reasons... I am talking about the stock standard run of the mill transactions ....
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *CountessA* on October 28, 2009, 01:43:08 PM: What sellers hate:

... a buyer who wins an item, doesn't pay within 4 days, doesn't communicate with the seller, doesn't respond to a reminder invoice, doesn't respond to a second reminder invoice, doesn't respond to a third reminder invoice, answers and identifies himself BUT hangs up when seller has obtained contact details, pretends to gabble a foreign language when called again, says in fake bad English, "He not here, go away, wrong number" when called a third time...

At what stage do you say that enough is enough and that, no matter how patient you are, the buyer is not going to pay?
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 28, 2009, 02:14:18 PM: Whatever !!!!! doesn't matter what I say Smee...

At what stage do you say that enough is enough and that, no matter how patient you are, the buyer is not going to pay?

And at what stage do you realise that Ebay's contract of sale over buyers, doesn't hold water in the real world? Any number of things can void a contract of sale.....

At what point does a seller realise that they are partially issuing a strike to recoup FVF and otherwise, they'd probably just relist and get on with it?....Why so 'bash the bad buyer'???? The contract of sale means nothing the very second a 'trader' (under FT definitions), breaches that contract...and that's a grey area...

And if you think a seller has any legal right to enforce Ebay's laughable contact of sale......try it I dare ya...lol...take a buyer on with Fair Trading for not paying...hey...good luck with that.

But if you issue a strike and that same buyer reports you to FT? because their ebay account was suspended?....well, that's gonna be a whole different kettle of fish, particularly if the seller threatens those strikes in order to achieve payment and the buyer can prove it - not nice...lol

Again I reiterate...most sellers only issue a strike to recoup costs. and that's Ebay's charming little system. Why can't they simply credit for NPB's? No money is collected by the seller...ebay know their COS can't be enforced...it's all just bullshit. Try looking at the cause before blaming the victim.

Anyway, I'm out of this debate...
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *smee* on October 28, 2009, 02:32:44 PM: At what stage do you say that enough is enough and that, no matter how patient you are, the buyer is not going to pay?

at day 15 .... that is the earliest you can say that unless the buyer has advised you earlier that they dont wnt to proceed ... this is my point and is fact !

And if you think a seller has any legal right to enforce Ebay's laughable contact of sale......try it I dare ya...lol...take a buyer on with Fair Trading for not paying...hey...good luck with that.

But if you issue a strike and that same buyer reports you to FT? because their ebay account was suspended?....well, that's gonna be a whole different kettle of fish, particularly if the seller threatens those strikes in order to achieve payment and the buyer can prove it - not nice...lol

Again I reiterate...most sellers only issue a strike to recoup costs. and that's Ebay's charming little system. Why can't they simply credit for NPB's? No money is collected by the seller...ebay know their COS can't be enforced...it's all just bullshit. Try looking at the cause before blaming the victim.

none of this applies because of the way I approach my buyers I have never not been paid ... my other point !
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 28, 2009, 02:39:26 PM: Smee, the way you operate your business has nothing to do with how sellers generally on ebay operate theirs....some are idiots....OK?
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *smee* on October 28, 2009, 02:40:31 PM: yes Cupie agreed ... 100%
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 28, 2009, 02:41:58 PM: Finally...
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: *Brum6y* on October 28, 2009, 02:58:25 PM: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?

This, and several dozen other questions, will be answered differently by different sellers for different reasons. Horses for courses, as it has been said.

Each seller has their own priorities in running their business - some personal, some commercial, some legislative, some relevant to the market in which they operate and some because of eBay's and Paypal's modus operandi. Those priorities can be influenced by fear, hope, experience, the global financial crisis, mail strikes and a host of other factors that only each seller, operating in their own arena, can fully respond to with instinctive immediacy. (Explaining such decisions to someone unfamiliar with the nuances of the seller's situation can be onerous. It could even be said: "For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not, no explanation is possible.")

I know a couple of sellers. One is particularly focussed on building and maintaining a brilliant reputation. They are patient with slow payers, they combine postage on multiple purchases and will even refund every cent of excess postage if something was quoted at one rate and, when packaged for the post, came in 5g under and could be posted more cheaply.

They are not interested in 'keeping the bastard buyers honest' per se, but rather on building their business and protecting their reputation for being fair and honest. They are very sensitive to feedback and have worked hard to look after their customers.

I have not questioned them about the specific reasons for some of their apparent priorities, but from my observation, issuing a NPB strike would be made on the basis of impact to their business - reputation, cash flow, etc. - more than cracking a dimwit buyer over the skull because they deserve it.
Title: Re: NPB's - when do YOU give up?
Post by: cueperkins on October 28, 2009, 03:03:45 PM: Exactly..... :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

and some sellers are still idiots !!!

NPB strikes were the last resort for me as a seller, and most of the time, I just tried to cancel to recoup costs if all else was lost...Ebay's system to recoup those costs at the very least.,.,...don't make it any easier....it forces sellers to be punitive to buyers, thereby affecting their reputation, just to recoup fvf...the system itself is flawed I reckon...Ebay never lose......but that's just my observation. Sellers will get around it or deal with it, in their own way, according to their own ethics.