Oz Round Table
The Oz Round Table boards => The Round Table => Topic started by: *CountessA* on June 14, 2009, 07:21:53 PM
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I bought a number of games (Scarabeo) from an Italian seller. Postage was 75 euros. (I would estimate the total weight of the seven games to be under 5kg. The cost is high, but not unduly. I think it was a fair postage charge.)
They arrived, but - now get this - they were not packaged in a box. They were not packaged with cardboard around them. They were not packaged in anything, in fact, except for having a thin layer of black plastic wrapped and taped around the seven games.
No surprise, I suppose, that the two games on the outside were damaged - irretrievably squashed and ripped. They're certainly not fit to give as NEW GAMES to the people for whom I bought them. The price of each game was a little under 30 euros.
When I messaged the seller to let him know that the games had arrived but two were damaged, and that considering that the damage was due to lack of packaging I suggested a partial refund in respect of the two damaged games, his reply was that he wasn't able to give a refund unless the games were returned.
No mention of the return postage being paid.
(This, by the way, would be almost $70 for registered airmail, for the two games concerned.)
No mention of "Yes, we'll refund the cost of the games and the postage once we've received the two games". No mention of "We're sorry about the lack of packaging" or "We're sorry about the damage". He literally said "purtroppo possiamo solo sostituirli previa restituzione di quelli danneggiati. grazie di tutto". He's suggesting he can replace the two damaged ones after the two damaged ones are returned to him. Fine - I'd be very happy with that, as long as I'm not out almost $70 in returning the two damaged games to him.
So far, my last reply was to say of course I could return the two games, but I'd expect to be reimbursed for the postage, and wouldn't it be easier if he accepted the photo evidence and gave a partial refund?
Any other suggestions about the best way for me to handle this? No reply as yet from the seller...
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Hi Countess
Nuke him !!
:wine:
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OK, bad joke...
Please don't be tough with him, until you have got what you think is fair....
Then nuke him !! Again !!
:wine:
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Hi Countessa. I hope you used PayPal.
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I would attempt to go down that path Countess explain thats its not worth either of you paying $70 postage and by sending a photo you are providing proof and If I were the seller i would offer partial refund , I am not sure how it works with Aust Post with international stuff but have you approached them re the damage ?
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Italy sucks. Didn't they lose a war or sumpthin'?
Give 'em the Doll treatement:
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/Talky_Tina_NEG.jpg)
Or just go for The Big One:
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/neg-em-all-nuke.gif)
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Thanks for the replies so far.
Smee, I'd have approached AP had the games actually been packaged... but I wouldn't have a hope of any claim against AP considering the games had no packaging at all! (I've never seen anything like it. If only he'd used a piece of cardboard or bubble-wrap against the outer box - it might have stopped the damage - but there was nothing. Quite literally nothing.
So AP is out in terms of dealing with this.
Riff, buying from Italy doesn't offer many other payment methods than PayPal. But the fact that I used PayPal isn't going to help with relation to the return postage cost. PayPal are silent on this issue. If I'd paid to the seller's merchant account by card, I could have gone immediately to my card provider and initiated a chargeback. But it's not as easy to do when PayPal is the intermediary because it's no longer the seller who is considered the merchant in this case. I'd be proceeding with a chargeback against PAYPAL.
If the seller won't agree voluntarily to give me just a partial refund of those two games, I foresee nothing but problems.
A. I could open a PayPal claim. Mm-hmm. PayPal will tell me to return the damaged items to the seller. I will send back the items (well wrapped to prevent further damage) by registered airmail. Almost $70. The seller will receive the games and will either refund me the cost of the two games and hopefully that portion of the postage relevant to his having SENT the games to me, or he'll post out two more games to me. There's no guarantee at all that the $70 I paid in returning the games will be reimbursed.
B. I could initiate a chargeback with my card provider. With PayPal as the merchant, and since the seller is not refusing to abide by PayPal's terms (just taking advantage of one of the problems with those terms), I can't see PayPal co-operating, and I'm not sure how I'd stand in terms of getting a refund via a chargeback in this particular situation. I would welcome any comments from others who have been through something similar.
C. I could throw up my hands and wear the loss, which is 30 euros plus something like 22 euros for the two games' share of the postage.
In other words, I either stand to lose $70 (rely on PayPal) or $90 (do nothing). I suppose I could offer to give the two damaged games to the people for whom I bought them, and only ask them to pay me 1/4 of the original price, but even that seems silly. How could I ask someone to pay me for such a damaged item when they wanted a new game and asked me on their behalf to buy those new games?
Barny, I WILL "nuke" the seller if he does not reimburse me in some way. I'm getting a lot meaner - you may have noticed I have narrower eyes and there's a suspicious shoulder holster I wear nowadays. But... it doesn't help me re the money for the damaged games.
Tello, no, no, Italy's wonderful! I can only hope this seller takes the responsibility for his lack of packaging. If he does, I won't neg him because he'll have shown himself to be a problem-solver and fair in the long run. If he doesn't... I'll be disappointed to say the least of it.
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I would let the seller know you are prepared to open an item not as described dispute with PayPal and that you intend to send the entire package back to him. Let him know you will wait for his response regarding your suggestion of a partial refund.
He will either cave and refund because he loses the postage he paid and will have two useless games.
Or you make the claim and lose the postage.
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If he doesn't... I'll be disappointed to say the least of it.
What yer really saying is: You agree with my callous remark.
Can I say "Greaseballs, Dagos and Wops Oh my!" ???????
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Sure fire way to get a good result!
Put a few marbles in your mouth and ring the seller...tell him that your Uncle Alphonse is not happy that his favourite little neice has been gyped!
Ask him if he likes horses.... ;)
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That is SO Brando......! :applause:
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Roo, THAT is the advice of the decade! Let me practise my Mafia accent...
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Hi Countess. I really don't know if I have anything particularly constructive to add. Except that I have mixed feelings.
After putting in an attempt to encourage the seller to refund some of the money, I would then put in a dispute if he doesn't respond. Unfortunately, I suspect he will go the "please return and I will refund" line, which according to ebay/paypal rules he is allowed to. This is in place to protect sellers from unscrupulous buyers, the likes of which I have come across myself and been very grateful for this.
However, the crying shame is genuine cases like this. Unless you can sweet talk the seller into refunding your money any action you take will cost you money. In addition, he may pack the items no better the next time. *sigh* *shrug* (Hey where is Sincom??)
The only satisfaction you will get in my opinion if he is a naughty boy is to neg him and have appropriate comments to match that neg. At least you will warn others about him.
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LOL...if that fails Countess...just send the poor bugga a pic of yourself.
You are what every Italian man dreams about!
You will have him eating out of your hands.
Let's face it...as far as Paypal are concerned....they just don't cover this type of scenario....so use anything at your disposal to get the result you want.
I hope this all posts.....strange things are happening here tonight.....*insert Twilight Zone music.....
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*insert Twilight Zone music.....
Will this work for ya?
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/BLACHANDWHITE.gif)
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Tello...your pic...and a reboot seem to have done the trick! ;)
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*stares into the ever-increasing blackness of eternity*...
... What... is... your... wish...?
*shakes head* What just happened? At what have I been staring? My mind's doing Ferris wheels!
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Seen this one? It came from an auction page.....
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/0bidnow.gif)
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Sexy Harley Chick used that one for a while Tello!
I haven't seen her around for ages either? Hope all is well with her....
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(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/Thumbsup.jpg)
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Yes, Roo - like you, I haven't seen SHC for quite a while. I hope she is still doing well - I know she absolutely loved the falling Australian dollar against the US dollar, so she may not be too happy by the recent climb upwards by the AUD.
... (And thank you for the compliments!I will be sure to tell the Italian seller how beautiful I am - no really *preen preen* *files and polishes talons to a blood-red and dangerous length*)
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(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/download-9.jpg) (http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/y7865.gif)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/girls_girls_girls.jpg)
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is that an add for a burger shop ??
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SHC also had her significant OH move in too...so hopefully she is busy with other stuff..lol
And you have to remember...
God gave men a penis....and the rest of us got a brain! :pmsl:
Use your God given talents Countess~! :green:
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Countessa, if you don't find a solution to your problem here, you could try:
http://forums.ebay.com.au/forum/Buying/500000009
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I don't think anyone there can offer much more advice Riff....
Unfortunately, Countess has come across one of the huge loopholes in the system...where a seller can say.."Send it back"...and the buyer either pays a motza for return postage...or can just wave goodbye to their dollars.
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Countessa, if you don't find a solution to your problem here, you could try:
http://forums.ebay.com.au/forum/Buying/500000009
In the words of John McEnroe ..........................................
YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS !!!
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God gave men a penis....and the rest of us got a brain!
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/surprise.gif)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/mental4.jpg)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/alfredeneuman-1.jpg)
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... Yes, the problem, as Roo says, is the loophole.
Not to mention that looking for even eight seconds at the new eBay forum design triggers the beginning of a migraine for me. (This is no exaggeration.) The other piece of information I'd like is from anyone who's ever initiated a credit card chargeback against PayPal in a similar situation, knowing that unless they do, the hefty postage amount is "cactus".
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Countess, as much as many seem to accept Paypal's black snake terms and policies without question.... and seek to convince others that they have no redress (particularly Paypal itself)....you would still have a viable complaint against Paypal for full refund, via BFSO....
Just because Paypal hasn't addressed this type of scenario before (or refuse to)....doesn't mean to say that they shouldn't be addressing it in their policies under our consumer laws. The whole point of BFSO is to determine if said policy is in fact equitable to you as a consumer. If not, then they WILL more than likely recommend that Paypal refund you without you having to go to any further expense. Remember EBS? They refused them too under their so called policies but BFSO didn't agree for some odd reason...protecting consumers again? what a bunch of ratbags eh?
In effect, the seller has voided their responsibility to deliver these goods in an efficient or safe fashion but under Ebay and Paypal's deficient policies, they have no responsibility whatsoever?.
I'm assuming that given cross border issues with consumer rights, you decided to use Paypal with an expectation of consumer protection or safety?
But...now you've learned that Paypal doesn't protect you because here we have yet another loophole they can use to get out of their so called buyer protection obligations?? *Yes Really* If somewhere in their policies, it spells out this scenario specifically and warns consumers that they'll get stitched for massive OS postage costs if they are required to return an item, then I'll stand corrected, but it still wouldn't make it gospel.
Basically, Paypal as the 'go between' in my view, would have a responsibility to refund you, and seek reimbursement from the seller in Italy. This should include postage, because after all...Paypal charge a % of the postage cost included in the purchase price. It shouldn't be ALL your risk when Paypal are telling consumers they are safe using Paypal with OS purchases...CLEARLY...that isn't the case in this type of scenario and hence, it is now a KNOWN risk. If Paypal refuse to address it as a flaw in their so called buyer protection policies...then you have no choice but to take it further in my view.
I would definitely lodge an item not as described dispute with Paypal, then escalate it to their escalations personnel once it is rejected (as Paypal will surely do)...then lodge the BFSO complaint and set out the unfairness to you as a consumer of Paypal, that this hidden trap is not addressed by Paypal in promoting their payment method as the 'safest...detail your expectations of Paypal, given their PR regarding safety....'...cough, splutter, choke.
Remember, you are an Australian Consumer of Paypal, and as such your complaint is against Paypal in as much as their terms allow this type of consumer rip off to occur. That's what BFSO's job is....to examine policies of various APRA licensees and if a systemic issue arises (i.e. if numerous similar complaints are received), then BFSO are obligated to report it to ASIC. It's not a matter of just taking everything Paypal says as gospel...although some would have you believe they are the be all and end all......They're not !!!....and you can only test their dubious buyer protection by challenging it each and every time with BFSO. It's the only watchdog over the top of them and it costs them a sizeable fee when BFSO have to investigate so at least they cop it one way or another.
Remember to go and have a look at BFSO's terms of reference so your complaint matches same.
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*Ducks under Chair to avoid the usual shrapnel for daring to challenge Big Paypal*
:chair:
:spanishinq:
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:applause: Cupie. You don't think post 29 is a tad over-the-top considering that Countessa hasn't contacted PayPal or lodged a dispute as yet? Or at least hasn't said so here.
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:pmsl:
:crazy:
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Not especially Riff. From from what I can see, there seems to be a consensus that she'll have to wear the loss or return the items at her expense and then lose the postage both ways. Either Way, it looks like the consumer gets stitched.....and Riff...read again...I recommended that she DOES lodge a dispute with Paypal for the cost, but as others have said, she'll still lose the postage...that not being fair, Countess will have to seek the remainder through BFSO.....Then (as it should be) Paypal can seek reimbursement from the seller who is after all responsible for this issue in the first place. Ironically, Ebay and Paypal's policies make sure they are never actually accountable though, so it's all a bit of a farce and consumers get stitched...
:filenails:
Oh Imp...how unexpected :crazy:
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BOO HOO...
(http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss232/edgabrit/sillies/funny_1082-1.jpg)
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or return the items at her expense and then lose the postage both ways.
You seem to be under the impression Cupie, that the original postage cost would not be refunded by PayPal in the event of a claim.
No need for the BFSO to get involved at all.
It's hard to accept I know.......but PayPal is not the bad guy here......the seller did the wrong thing.
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Riff you are right to a certain extent ... yes paypal will refund the full amount including the original postage If countess can prove she has returned the items to the seller but she will still be out of pocket for the postage for the return of the items
The most logical way to sort this out as some of the items are acceptable is a partial refund from the seller once countess provides him with photo evidence of the damage. I cant see the point in either party paying another lot of postage to send damaged goods across the world !
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Couldn't agree more about the best possible outcome being a partial refund Smee and said so earlier. As far as the return postage goes, it's the same for any product you receive from any seller or business, the buyer pays. Fair minded sellers on eBay and elsewhere may refund return postage but it's not a rule.
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I don't know the in's and out's of paypal but is photo evidence acceptible to paypal ?
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No Yib, that would open up a minefield of false claims.
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I thought I'd explained my dilemma clearly... but apparently not.
I'd be out the cost of RETURN POSTAGE, which comes to around $70.
And this is the issue. How do I deal with the situation so as to encourage the seller either to agree to refund the return postage OR to give a partial refund commensurate with the two damaged items?
Cupie is perfectly correct. PayPal will not reimburse me for the cost of the return postage by airmail to Italy.
If I have to pay for the return postage of the two games to Italy, it's not really worth returning the items, is it? This is the loophole we've been discussing and which is particularly applicable in this case.
I'd be happy with one of three scenarios:
Scenario 1: Seller reimburses me partially in acknowledgement of his responsibility in failing to package the items and the resulting damage. I would be satisfied with a refund of $40 even though this won't cover the cost of the two games and their postage, but it's something. It would make me feel the seller acknowledged fault.
Scenario 2: Seller asks me to post back the two games, promising a full refund for the cost of those two games and the postage relevant to them, AS WELL as promising to refund the $70 it will cost me to post back the games. (I think this is a silly scenario, because what can the seller do with two damaged games? Furthermore, the $70 return postage is a hefty amount...)
Scenario 3: Seller asks me to post back the two games, promising a replacement for both games AND refund of the $70 return postage.
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Well Tessa ...email him what you want, give him the list below and see what he say's...translate it of course before you send it....google translator is very accurate.... Sorry I can't think of any other answer? Maybe try to speak to a live Paypal person and ask for a solution?? [ they created this monster! ]
Scenario 1: Seller reimburses me partially in acknowledgement of his responsibility in failing to package the items and the resulting damage. I would be satisfied with a refund of $40 even though this won't cover the cost of the two games and their postage, but it's something. It would make me feel the seller acknowledged fault.
Scenario 2: Seller asks me to post back the two games, promising a full refund for the cost of those two games and the postage relevant to them, AS WELL as promising to refund the $70 it will cost me to post back the games. (I think this is a silly scenario, because what can the seller do with two damaged games? Furthermore, the $70 return postage is a hefty amount...)
Scenario 3: Seller asks me to post back the two games, promising a replacement for both games AND refund of the $70 return postage.
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Countess; IMO, I would go for the part refund option, or you will be the loser in this and that's not good.
You can make a claim for a part refund through PP, it's up to the seller to agree, it would be in the best interest to but who know till you try.
Good luck with it.
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In relation to the photo being proof enough for paypal, it was in my case..??
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Thanks, Imp! That's definitely my preferred option. I hope he will agree.
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I hope so too..that is a lot of money to be out if not..
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Okay - I've been talking back and forth with the seller, and he's now agreed to give me a partial refund of 12 euros. It's not terrific, but it's a solution I am willing to accept.
But he says that he can't refund before I close the dispute so that his PayPal account will be positive. Can I get a seller to confirm that that is correct? I know that if I close the dispute, I can't re-open it if he fails to follow through. But I assume what he means is that he withdrew the Paypal money into his bank account, and that when I opened a dispute (unfortunately this seems to be the only way that I was able to get a second reply from him), his PayPal account went into the red for the amount of €270.30 (the total of the transaction).
Advice, please? Now that I've finally got him willing to refund 12 euros, I don't want to make it difficult for him, and I don't want him to feel I'm being suspicious.
Anyway, I could resort to a credit card chargeback if he does renege, but I would prefer not to.
Has anyone here been in a similar situation? Have you stuck to your guns and insisted on the refund before closing the dispute? Or have you trusted the seller to keep to his word, closed the dispute and been justified in your trust?
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Having fun with all Paypal's twists and turns yet countess? feeling damned if you do and damned if you don't?
*ducks for cover awaiting usual attack*.... :chair:
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Countess , I am not sure exactley how it works but as I understand it when you lodged a dispute with with paypal they would have sent the you and the seller a message so what he needs to do is respond to that message advising paypal of his partial refund offer they should then message you and explain the next step failing that I would contact paypal and ask for the correct procedure prior to closing dispute
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Is there such a thing as a 'Stupid baiting Post' emoticon?
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Well if there is, I'm sure you'd know about it.
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(http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss232/edgabrit/jim_carey-385.gif)
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Oh, yes, PayPal... I don't consider it a fair solution that a seller's funds should be frozen while a dispute is in progress, unless there's reason to think the seller is a scammer planning on running off with mega-funds.
Oh well...
Smee, from what the seller has said, he's willing to give me a refund, but in order to do it, he says I have to close the dispute because his PayPal account is in the red due to the dispute. I've not been in that situation, so I'd really like to hear what a few sellers have to say about this situation...
I'm inclined to say I'll close the dispute; after all, the refund in question is only going to be 12 euro, which is nothing about which to jump up and down in excitement and is a "token partial refund" rather than real compensation.
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I have never gone through this as either a buyer or seller, but I do know from reading the Ask a Member board,
that the advice given is do NOT close a dispute until you have your refund!
From what I have read -Seller should message paypal telling them of the partial refund, they should then message you,
then refund done.
If you close the dispute, there is no way you can re-open it, and seller will be laughing all the way to the hmm.....bank!?
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I have always seen members given the advice in Bellagina's post.
Do not close the dispute until either the item or, refund, is received. If you close early before you actually receive the refund:-
1) You cannot reopen the case.
2) You cannot report the seller if you found that to be necessary.
I have never had this experience. But I would not close the case, regardless of what the seller is saying.
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I would be calling Paypal for advice, Countess, before closing the dispute.
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Europe: Pffftt...
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/Skulls/skulls-2-1.gif)
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I haven't replied to the seller's offer... I feel less inclined to simply close the dispute and hope for the best.
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The situation is now resolved.
(Not entirely to my satisfaction, but it's resolved.)
The day before I'd have had to either escalate to a claim or close the dispute, I contacted the seller again and informed him that PayPal had stated very definitely that he could certainly refund me without my closing the dispute - and that this was the proper way to go about it.
(I had rung Paypal just to confirm - in case there really was some reason why the seller would be unable to refund in this instance unless I closed the dispute.)
I said I would accept his offer of 12 euros partial refund, not in that it covered my loss, but that it gave us both a partial degree of satisfaction. For me, it was really a token acknowledgement of responsibility from the seller. I stated that he had to refund me before I would close the dispute, and that I would prefer not to escalate to a claim.
The seller agreed, and sent me 12 euros. (Unfortunately, he didn't seem to follow the link I gave him, which would enable a partial refund - which would mean no fees when I accepted the payment. AAAAgh. He just sent it as a payment rather than partial refund (hence I was charged a fee). A LOT of sellers don't seem to understand how this works!)
I shrugged, and closed the dispute.
I haven't left feedback. If I did, I'd probably give a neutral. Because he did carry through with the partial refund, I consider he kept his end of the bargain and I must deem myself partially satisfied.
Thanks, everyone, for your helpful advice! I made good use of it and refused to close the dispute until being refunded. I truly appreciate all the help you've given.
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A reasonable result Countess and better than you were originally expecting.
Very sad that the seller made it so difficult for you though.
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Dredging up old threads for fashion's worth here, eh?
Suppose I do it and get me arse whooped out of principle?
A risky proposition at this point.
Later never seems to come unless it already went.
Not very efficient, am I???
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Tello, this particular problem has only just been resolved. Not 100% satisfaction, but the result is... acceptable.
And feel free to dig up some older threads. (As long as they're not so old that they've already entered the fourth stage of putrefaction.)
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That seller sounds very inexperienced!
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Tello is very inexperienced.
I know the guy personally....
What a Heap of Human carnage and folderol!!
Digging up the riteous past is futile in the world of "Instant Gratification NOW!".....
Look for the Movie, based upon the notes that never became a book. Suppose the Hanky Panky IS what it's all about???
CUE: This is a case where the man is the passive joker in an aggressive environment full of clowns
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Pssst!.........Cupie, dont mention George W Bush.
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Tello, what have I got to do with this one? or were you just cuing another joke....and was it on me? usually is...and how do I get the stains out?.....and and and what's George Bush got to do with it Poddy?...he's gone with the wind. Not more NutBush Silly Minutes? the world can't take anymore of what's 'Good For us...or is that U.S.'
What does it all mean? U.S. vs the home team.....(If you're not with us....then your against us)......the hooter sounds......and there's the kick off. Why do American Footballers wear so much padding?....do they bruise easily?
Does anyone else understand it? Do I need a Montello Babel Fish? and a Towel for spillage? *makes note to self....Don't Panic* It's only a nightmare......*lead break*
(http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp125/cueperkins/The-Nightmare.jpg)