Pick a schill a day

[bobbybigbear]

It' shill bid related Cue

I must apologise though, I guess I am making up for the frustration of never being allowed to post on RT for years.

I do feel it's important for members here to realise, these people are probably the ones that have damaged your abilitiy to exercise your rights to post on Ebay forums, as the MO is so similar, and it goes back to the early days and all the jealousy over who was top dog on RT. I mean the nightwols were hated and loved, those opposed to scambay and Dodgey, and those who were for it, most of it all stemmed from those days. The Power Sellers against those who spoke about the arrogance displayed by some, all the accusations.

And why did we fight so hard to be heard and to stay there...?

It was a far different ebay back then, you could get a bidding war on your mother in law, sales were plentiful, and I think I sold almost everything I listed, and at a higher than start price.

Now, I think it's hardly worth saving.  My motivation is simply to let newbies, and the naive, know what goes on, and give them the tools to protect themselves.

[*CountessA*]

  It's fine, Bobby (and it's Countess...!) ... It's hard not to become passionate about injustices or wrongs or problems.

But back to shill bidding... This is a question that's gnawed at me. Why is the term "shill bidding" used on eBay when, in every other context in Australia, such behaviour is referred to as proxy bidding?

[bobbybigbear]

The true meaning of Proxy Bidding are bids made on behalf of another person who cannot attend an auction.

Shill Bidding is the act of illegal bidding, ie; bidding on your own auctions to increase the final value.

Proxy is legal Shill is not.


Ebay practises proxy bidding when it ups your bid in increments to the highest bid you have offered.

[*CountessA*]

It's interesting because the terms seem to have changed in the last ten years. As a little girl, I remember my parents taking me to auctions - and proxy bidding was mentioned as an underhanded way for the auctioneer to drive up the price. If I recall correctly, it was also referred to as a vendor bid.

I don't remember ever hearing "shill bidding" mentioned until I joined eBay.

Of course "shill" itself is an old English word; the "shill" is the accomplice who acts as one part of a con designed to get people buying hastily and paying more by feigning interest in the item up for purchase. I can see how that word has become appropriated for online auction usage, and why the term "proxy bidding" has fallen virtually out of sight in that sense - because online auctions have caused that term to become redefined! Buyers are the ones performing proxy bids now - based upon the online auction model (which derives from a Vickrey auction). It would be too confusing were the term "proxy bidding" used in the older sense now.

[Philip.Cohen]

As bobbybigbear has already explained, “proxy” bidding and “shill” bidding are two different things.

“Proxy” bidding is the automatic placing of bids by the system as necessary up to the maximum set by the bidder, exactly the same as an auctioneer would exercise an “absentee” bid at a “traditional” form of auction.

Bidding by the auctioneer on behalf of the vendor that is disclosed as such may be lawful in some circumstances because there is no intention to defraud; there is no false representation that there is other interest in the item when there may not be any; the vendor is simply saying that he won’t sell for less.

“Shill” bidding is undisclosed bidding on behalf of the vendor with the intention of artificially raising the price.

The first one is OK, the second one may be OK, the last is a false representation and is fraud and is unlawful.

[*CountessA*]

Hello, Philip - welcome here.

As I said in my above post, the terms seem to have altered slightly in meaning as a result of the internet and online auctions such as eBay. The proxy bidding term usage that I remember from live auctions were in respect of undisclosed vendor bids (as WELL as permissible and legal bids on behalf of either the vendor or a buyer who couldn't be present at the auction).

However, nowadays, you are quite right. The term "proxy bidding" no longer seems to mean that same thing but refers only to something permissible. A proxy bid can still be undisclosed in some cases - for instance, there are some items sold at auction at Christie's, but no one knows who the buyer is. The bids were by proxy and were undisclosed; however, it was conducted legally and the intention was to maintain the buyer's desire to keep his identity undisclosed, rather than to defraud through artificially driving up the price.

There never used to be a term "shill bidding" in respect of auctions. It's a very recent derivation from the word "shill".

It's probably the best term to use nowadays, given the widespread usage of it as a non-permissible and illegal pattern of bidding placed either by the buyer or by someone associated with the buyer for the purpose of driving up the price.

[Poddy]

Hello Philip,

Welome to the site, when you get the opertunity have a bit of a read, that will give you a better idea of what we are about

[*FluffyDuckee*]

Hi Phillip and welcome.   

[bobbybigbear]

Hi Phillip, an old hand but new here. Welcome.

[bobbybigbear]

This is something I write about in the book as well, and mainly deals with collectables where a known value of the goods is evident from existing sales and offline valuations.
It involves people with mutiple ID's.
Say your selling a football card, Value $200, but you want to attract bids so list at $100. Another collector bids $110 with his buying ID. He then shill bids the auction up to $500 using a couple of shill Id's.
Nobody else will bid knowing the value of the card, so it sits. Just before the close of the auction, the shill bids are withdrawn leaving the collectors buying iD being the winner at $110, $90 under value, and when he sells it on his selling ID, it's an instant $90 profit.

I have detected this on quite a few occasions when there have been complaints on the forums about bid retractions, however, ebay, again changes the rules to make it so much harder, and of course my time is limited, and you eventually give up.  I think Ebay, as it is has a sunset clause, and within 2 years will admit defeat at being able to stop scammers, and will go to an Amazon type format.  PayPal will be the core of the flagship as far as earnings, and that will take up the slack when mum & dad sellers drop out of ebay in their droves.  OZtion is all but gone, beset by technical problems that make the site so slow, glitches that see members having to relist up to 800 items because they dropped into Unsold, forums that resemble world war 3, and an Admin with no clue, and the owners, Jumbuck, who refuse to become involved in the sites affairs.  I have posted on my forums for the last few years that on line auctions will self destruct because sites refuse to initiate any worthwhile verification system.

I have also posted for a long time that the government will have to step in and issue Internet Licenses, which will register every user. It would make a lot of money for governments, and free up Police resources, because it would make scamming too risky.  You would have to have your registration licence number before you could connect with a carrier, who could blackban all known proxy servers.       The WWW needs to be cleaned up, the technology is there to do it, but the powers that be couldn't be bothered.

[Philip.Cohen]

Shill Bidding on eBay: A Case Study
 
For anyone who buys anything on eBay, a detailed case study of shill bidding and the abuse of eBay’s proxy bidding system—all exacerbated by eBay’s introduction of “hidden bidders”—plus a detailed general criticism of eBay’s “clunky” auction platform, at
http://www.auctionbytes.com/forum/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=24033

This auctionbytes post  may have been previously viewed by some, but it has over the past three months grown considerably and has developed into a general criticism of just about the whole of the mechanism of eBay’s auction platform, from the point of view of a buyer. The gist of that criticism is as follows:

Synopsis:

?   very little of the auction system security, that eBay claims to offer buyers, exists in fact;

?   contrary to their claim, eBay has no “sophisticated” nor “proactive” system in place for the detection of the criminal fraud of undisclosed vendor (“shill”) bidding and indeed appears to do nothing about such criminal activity except as a reaction to a user’s report of suspicious bidding activity;
 
?   eBay appears to have no effective matter-of-course verification of users; unscrupulous users can have as many user IDs as they may have email addresses;
 
?   many of eBay’s “rules”, concerning the retraction of bids, cancellation of auctions, etc, are nominal only and are no bar to the machinations of the unscrupulous seller;

?   as a result, eBay’s “proxy” bidding system is so open to abuse by such unscrupulous sellers that to use it, the way eBay intends it to be used, can be an invitation to pay your maximum;

?   the lack of any such effective security effectively “aids and abets” unscrupulous shill-bidding sellers to defraud naïve buyers;

?   anyone naïve enough to bid on a seller-selected “private” auction (ie, “User ID kept private”), on the balance of probability, is going to be defrauded;

?   when suspected fraud is reported, and is found by eBay to be proved to their satisfaction, eBay will conceal that fact from the victim of the fraud; this then effectively is the concealing of a crime after the fact, surely a crime in itself;

?   eBay will never acknowledge to a victim that a fraud has been perpetrated, nor indeed acknowledge that such fraud is even a problem on eBay; eBay therefore sees no reason to provide any mechanism to aid in the recovery of any monies so defrauded;

?   if eBay did have any truly sophisticated and proactive system in place for the detection and control of shill bidding, we would not now be having this debate; and

?   for those buyers (and honest sellers) who embrace eBay believing that eBay acts as an “honest broker” between buyer and seller, I can only say that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden too.

As a matter of interest my “15 minutes of fame” came about after Cade Metz of “The Register” followed up my auctionbytes case study with the following story on 10 July, at
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/10/ebay_and_shill_bidding/

The national Fairfax group (in Australia) then picked it up and on 14 July also gave eBay a serve, at
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/biz-tech/phoney-bidding-rampant-on-ebay-20090714-djsr.html

The following morning I had a call from “A Current Affair” which I declined; then ABC radio called and talked me into doing an interview (eBay got to respond with their classic disingenuousness 30 minutes later); then the “Today” show called …

The Australian Nine Network “Today” show also ran the story on 16 July, at
http://today.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=838042

Even the author’s local newspaper gave the story a run on 21 July:
http://www.theleader.com.au/news/local/news/general/bid-to-stamp-out-fakes-during-online-auctions/1572834.aspx

All the three “newspapers” invited responses from eBay. Apart from the usual pathetic, disingenuous responses reported in the above articles (that I have further responded to in the auctionbytes thread), the author is yet to receive any direct communication from eBay as to any aspect of the facts that are presented, or the conclusions that are drawn therefrom, that eBay may care to dispute.

But, of course, the real question is, will we ever be able to shame this greedy, unscrupulous, disingenuous organisation (eBay, that is) into providing the auction security for buyers that it claims to provide but that it, demonstrably, does not?

In the meantime, the journo at the Herald has expressed an interested in following up this matter of eBay’s facilitating of shill bidding with the regulatory authorities and so would anyone who notices any activity that is very probably shill bidding, please supply the auction number(s) and suspect ID(s) to the author at formset@exemail.com.au

Bear in mind that, alone, a high percentage of “Bid activity (%) with this seller” may or may not be an indicator of shill bidding: 100% of bids on only one auction with this seller, may well be meaningless. As the number of auctions of the seller that a bidder is bidding on increases the probability that it could be shill bidding also increases, regardless of the number of bids on each auction. I wonder why it is then that eBay does not supply that statistic (ie, “Items bid on with this seller”), nor do they directly identify the seller in the “30 Day Bid History” list (you have to try and figure that out yourself)? Could I be so cynical as to suggest that the information is supplied in such a clumsy format deliberately so as to make it as difficult as possible for genuine bidders to work it all out?

[Poddy]

Very interesting reading Philip.

I thank you for posting all the links in one place so people can get a better idea of what is going on.

Your work on the matter is of great value and everyone should take the time to read what you have collated

Thanks again

[tellomon]

How many shill bidders does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

***Insufficient data to formulate a response***

 

[bobbybigbear]

I wonder why it is then that eBay does not supply that statistic (ie, “Items bid on with this seller”), nor do they directly identify the seller in the “30 Day Bid History” list (you have to try and figure that out yourself)? Could I be so cynical as to suggest that the information is supplied in such a clumsy format deliberately so as to make it as difficult as possible for genuine bidders to work it all out?


That would be putting their hands in the air and saying " We are guilty ".

Every time I have tried to have my ban overturned, and have given information to a pink, the pink has disappeared and a
" New" starts.  Of course they don't, but people get sick of trying to get justice and simply resort to getting another ID, which helps ebay to say " Look how many members we have"

I remember when they made the fuss over the 5 millionth member, and I thought, what if it was one of their shill ID's.

Of course that wouldn't happen because ID's are a couple of keystrokes for staff, their is no audits to confirm anything, no system put in place where a government body can walk in and check.  If Police asked for records they could be doctored in minutes.   Just as the system is open to manipulation by members, so it is for staff.

[Poddy]

If I have the time I may even join the conversation.

I guess Riff just couldnt find the time to join the conversation, pity that.

I was so looking forward to his gems of wisdom and his 'voice of reason'

[bobbybigbear]

Every time ebay changes the rules, it aids shill bidding. In my opinion " Second Chance Offers " were introduced because so many shill bidders were getting stuck as winners, and the sellers employing the shill bidders where having to pay fees.
Ebay's own rules dictate you must go through the dispute process, which takes up to 21 days, so why would they allow sellers to circumvent this process.

Why is it that second chance offers are generally received within 24 hours....?

A lot of people who are not going to follow through on the auction, just don't reply, and yet sellers are supposed to go through the process and wait before declaring an NPB.  I understand when the seller has multiples, but every SCO I have received has been for single items, so my assumption is that it's a scam, or a shill bidder being declared the winner, and the seller has full knowledge it's a shill bid, so sends a second SCO..

If this thread keeps going, I needn't bother selling my book, they can read it here.

[Poddy]

Bobby,

Just think of all the lovely new material that you are getting to include in your book.

Perhaps Riff might even grace us with his presence and impart some of his extensive knowledge on the subject in the next day or two.

[RiffRaff]

Only too happy to oblige Poddy......as soon as I see a conversation taking place.

I read Phils' post but I can't find the part that confirms that the ID's you claim are shill ID's are in fact....shill ID's.


I did find this though:

Bear in mind that, alone, a high percentage of “Bid activity (%) with this seller” may or may not be an indicator of shill bidding: 100% of bids on only one auction with this seller, may well be meaningless.


I also note that there is no acknowlegement of the reason for the introduction of hidden bidders.

[RiffRaff]

No need to edit your posts Poddy. I'm sure this site can cope with one additional post.

[Poddy]

Riff,

So glad you found the time to join in.

Perhaps you could enlighten us on the virtues of the hidden biodder policy.

[Poddy]

Riff,

No need to edit your posts Poddy. I'm sure this site can cope with one additional post.

what ARE you on about ?

[bobbybigbear]

I'll give you a possible explanation for hidden bidders.

Many people who bid on auctions have been intimidated by fake ID's threatening all sorts of things if they don't back off bidding.
Many who have won auctions have been contacted by others wanting the details of the seller, and some of these people have complained about, long and hard.

It is a security issue, and showing bidders is a system that allows vendetta's against members, to flourish, and that's by outbidding the person under attack, everytime they bid. Through advanced search, you can check and see what any member is bidding on, so it makes it easy for the Trolls to use a fake ID to outbid their victim everytime.

This not only affects the buyer, but the seller as well, and possibly a reason for SCO.  I have opinions, but one has to be fair and put both possible scenarios.

[*cupie*]

  at Tello & Poddy...Hi Phil....nice to see you contributing your knowledge here...Shilling is a complicated issue, and one which you appear to have cracked the 'nutshell' on....Well done !!

Could I be so cynical as to suggest that the information is supplied in such a clumsy format deliberately so as to make it as difficult as possible for genuine bidders to work it all out?

Yep...you may, you have, and many agree....they do the same with statistics of fraud.....Does anyone recall when Ebay claimed fraud as being representative of a 'TINY' percentage of all transactions ?.....no Fraud on Ebay...nup...just a few unlucky punters...This was pre-paypal), and in response to a precedent study in 2006  (Going, Going Gone?)

In the same year as that precedent study.....the Police Online Auction Fraud Reporting initiative was launched by  QLD Police....In it's first year of operation to 2007 end of Financial year, 23 recidivist Ebay frauds were found responsible for half of Qld's fraud reports.....They simply kept signing up using another dodgy ID and instantly gained access to a Nation Wide Pool of potential victims...over, and over again.....Bit like shooting fish in a barrel.   (Meanwhile...Ebay like to 'Watch').  

If there were minimal fraud on Ebay as they claimed pre-paypal, I doubt that Police would have been able to justify the implementation of an Online Auction Fraud initiative specifically aimed at Ebay related fraud.......it doesn't work like that...the problem has to be demonstrably widespread for budgets to be allocated to a project like that.  These days it has expanded to include all online auction sites, because as we know..fraud flourishes in the absence of safeguards and deterrents.

Then..... they purchase Paypal....and overnight...Fraud is rife....Paypal is the only answer (at a lucrative fee)  oh....don't they call that extortion ?...I digress....and they even go so far as to accuse ACCC of placing consumers at risk of all this fraud that only a year before was almost non existent?  mmmhhhh...wag that dog ???

So we might deduce from this that Recidivist fraud is indeed as rife on Ebay as it was in 2005/6...and I believe it would be appropriate to conclude that this is the result of the laxidasical membership practices = it's easy to get away with so frauds love it.  

Registering members and cooperating with Police investigation of fraud, (in conjuction with the Police initiative and not against it) would soon make it difficult for recidivist fraud to exist....Those committing fraud under their own identity, would be responsible for that fraud in the first place, and prevented from engaging in recidivist fraud, unless they stole someone else's identity and dug themselves even further into criminal conduct...Sure there would be those who try to fluff the verification process, but they'd soon stand out from the crowd.

I think it's safe to say that Ebay have more twists and turns than a black snake in a bushfire....As for shilling in the real world.....Does anyone recall when this practice was rife in the Real Estate marketplace?    Anyone could bid on an auction at one point, but these days they have to register their identity as a bidder with the Auctioneer...or they can't bid.......Similarly...don't live auctions require a credit card on file or registration of bidders, who hold up their bidding number as they bid?....so the practice isn't acceptable in either of these industries.....Phillip...I concede, I haven't researched the actual nuances of RE and Live Auctions, but I do believe that on face value... the one glaringly obvious mitigation against shilling and consumer fraud on Ebay, would be Registration of sellers and bidders....wouldn't it?  

[Poddy]

Bobby,

I guess that your explanation could be possible, but can you see anywhere , that by doing that it would increase eBay's bottom line?

I cant imagine eBay doing ANYTHING unless they could increase their profits

In my scenario, buy introducing the hidden bidder policy their bottomline has been greatly inflated due to the shillbidding that hidden bidders allows and even encourages.

Which do you think is more likely?

[bobbybigbear]

I agree 100%, and I am convinced of it, as much as I am convinced that ebay is complicit, and pays to have shill bidding done.

I was playing devils advocate though, and in order to be fair, I put the other scenario.

You only have to look at the motivation, and money is the greatest motivator when it comes to shareholders & profits.

[RiffRaff]

That's a valid point Bobby. The hidden bidder system also eliminates fake SCO's. This was a pro-active step to combat fraud.

Poddy, you edited post 66 and made it 'less baiting' before you knew I had seen it.

[Poddy]

I ask again Riff what are you on about?

How was the post 'baiting' and what was edited out of it.

Riff, if you go about making these sorts of accusations please back them up with fact.

[RiffRaff]

Apologies Poddy, I see the baiting post is number 64. My mistake.

[bobbybigbear]

One of the hardest things to do is to put aside personal feelings and grievances over things that happen on ebay.
Personally, I am a dinosaur as far as values in life goes.  The internet is not a place where traditonal values hold true.
It has been a bitter lesson for a kid who grew up in Tiger Town, to come to the realisation that the world has changed, and that respect isn't offered until your found unworthy, these days, people seem to prejudge things, because of a bad experience.
It is true that Ebay makes changes that can suit either point of view, ie Pro ebay, or against ebay.  We are all influenced by personal experience, but there are indicators to prove ones opinion.

Ebay is profit driven and relentless in it's pursuit. It has shot itself in the foot many times, but in my experience, companies like ebay are always working towards an event several years down the track. We are never privy to their long term planning, so as watchers of ebay, we have to be reactionary by nature.  The question is for us to decide, is ebay also reactionary to current conditions, or are they visionary, and slowly implementing changes to end up with a final product that will be unveiled in a couple of years.
My scenario, if true, as far as shill bidding, will have to come to an end, too many people will look at it and decide to dig.
No harm in earning good money in the meantime, but what will we end up with, if the Amazon theory is correct, it will do away with bidding anyway, so I will stick to my theory for now.

[Poddy]

I'm sorry you find that post 'baiting'. As you know I like to hear opposing views and I know that I can rely on  an opposing view from you every time.

[bobbybigbear]

Post 64 Baiting....?

Bloody hell, I wish that's all I had to complain about. Riff, never go to OZtion, this is a tame one.

Replied by barmybee on 23-Apr-2009 19:54 (Ref 1730323) Report
OK, I'll put this very simply Lovablefashion in words even you can understand.

Leave Oztion now. We don't want you or your fakes.

Bye bye.

* Insert two-finger emoticon here*

[Poddy]

Bobby,

I, for one have backed off from bidding in the way that I used to, in the past it was bid midway through the auction and then see how many bidders i had against me and try to judge what they would go to.

These days I either go for BIN or bid at the last second if it is below what I want to pay for the item.

By the way in all the time that I have been on ebay, and after over 1,200 sales and purchases i have receives only 2 SCOs that is 0.016% of all the transactions.

So the SCO excuse just wont wash

[*cupie*]

LMAO...Poddy...I've NEVER had an SCO in 8 years of buying and selling....so how prevalent is that practice to the extent that it requires anonymity amongst members?  i.e. hidden bidders.

I think the one good thing about hidden bidders is that those trying to target you, can't establish what you're bidding on by looking at the bidders on the auction itself....these days you'd have to guess who is P***? or C***S etc.  So in that regard, trolls have less ability to target their unwarranted attacks on buyers...not sure if it does anything to protect Sellers though.

Anyway...as we all know by now...Ebay is moving away from the auction platform...There have been numerous recent articles about this very intention that ebay make no secret of...so soon the whole issue of hidden bidders and shill bidding will be a thing of the past...ebay will deal with it by phasing out auctions......that is their future intention Bobby.  

what is needed is a site to step into the auction void.....and Google seems to be one such contender...See ACCC late submission...it was a doozy....name shielded and everything...hehehe...but some clever person found a way to identify the submission using their IT skills...

[bobbybigbear]

My average is better than that. my BBB ID has less than 500 feedback, 478 I think, over all auctions sites going back to 1996, it's over 10,000 from memory, my ebay AU account received dozens of SCO's when I was actively bidding, which may confirm my suspicions of vendetta based bidding. I have never accepted an SCO, in fact I don't even reply.

I tried to get ebay to bet rid of my BBB a/c, because of the ferals, but they didn't answer, and Shane reckons they cant gaurantee nobody else won't register it if I let it go, so it can sit there for all I care. I may purchase with it, but the threats I have had from an eatery, stated they would be interfered with so ebay again loses out on fee's.

I have limited space where I reside, so for the first couple of years I would purchase a boat in winter, do it up, use it for summer, and sell it.
These morons posted that I sold stolen boats.  Why would you bother

I could make their life hell in the real world, but why bother. I have always stated though, some should be praying I don't get a terminal illness that has some time attached to it.

[Poddy]

Cupie,

You dont have to guess who the bidder is


The cryptic a***b that is allocated to a bidder is only allocated once and that is what you have fron then on regardless of how many items you bid on.

All you have to do is to have a look at at auction, note the item number and the seller,

Wait for a while until that iten gets feedback and the bidders ID is revealed, try it sometime.

then if you wanted to and had the time you could create a database of cryptic ID and the ID that they correspond to

[bobbybigbear]

Perhaps I should also mention this:

From 1996 until 2005 when I joined a site, I had never had a phishing email, never been spammed, never had one problem at all on any sites, except for a bit of baiting on ebay's RT.

The email address I used on that site is still active, but is not the one I use for ebay.

When I changed it on ebay, the spam and fishing emails continued, until I decided on a little experiment.

I announced on a forum that I had changed it.  The phishing emails stopped, but the spam from sex sites continued.

They do seem to have abated of late, but so have a few other things that were happening.

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact I am closing one of my forums on the 9th of August.


Coincidence...?    I don't think so, where there is smoke, there is an indian with a blanket sending out signals.


 

[*cupie*]

So...Poddy when it comes to the determination of some ne're do wells, all they'd need to do is set up a list of ID's they've targeted and their hidden bidder names..? is that what you're saying?

I too have periods when Spam email is out of control..but I've had the same email address for years.....and it tends to have it's peak periods......I've been told (I think by Llama) that spam is all over the net...and then again, others have said that Ebay sells our details for spamming purposes.....so many conspiracies abound, it's sometimes hard to see the forest for the trees....perhaps that's the whole point.

[Poddy]

It would appear so.

I get no more spam per year than around 20 and i have had my email addy since 1995.

But I do have a good hardware firewall

[Poddy]

ebay claim that the hidden bidder algorythem is so secure, I say BULLSHIT

it would be so easy to allocate a different cryptic ID for each auction for its duration and then another for a different auction, now that would be a far better degree of 'safety'

[Poddy]

Its a ferfy, like the PayPay securiety, ..... even Al Capone has a PayPal account, and it is legit hahaha

[*cupie*]

You Know...I think Phil may have summed this up at one or more times in the past.....but the net effect of all this shill bidding is to drastically alter bidding practices (for those in the know at least).  But what of all the newbies who haven't got a clue they're the target of a sting, imposed upon them in the name of privacy/security?  Jeese..now I've heard everything.

Those of us that have followed Phil's investigation into this, (and those who have done their own investigation) would no doubt have changed their bidding practices.  

But that's only those of us who know about it....what about all those unsuspecting bidders who haven't got a clue that this type of thing exists, and that they are being conned out of more money than they needed to spend.   I think that was what Phil was trying to alert people to...

Ive noticed lately that everything I bid on is outbid shortly after , but if shill bidding or even trolling is behind it....too bad, so sad...I don't engage in bidding wars with anyone....so I just let it go, and don't bid on the item again.

From now On, I'm gonna become a 'watcher', and last minute bidder....let's see em screw around with that eh?...lol  

[RiffRaff]

The cryptic a***b that is allocated to a bidder is only allocated once and that is what you have fron then on regardless of how many items you bid on.

It was established on the old RT board when it existed, that this is not the case. The allocated cryptic ID does change randomly.


Poddy, it's a pity Al Capone is unable to transfer his ill-gotten gains into a bank account. I think we've been here before.

[bobbybigbear]

I think it depends who you deal with on Ebay. Never had the occasion to but of Power Sellers until the end of 2005, when the boredom of being retired far too young took hold.  We decided to ply my trade around the markets, and bought saleable stock from Power Sellers. This was around the time I joined the site I mentioned, which as Hawk alluded to, was part of the embrionic vendetta.
It may or may not be related, and as for conspiracy theories, in my case, proven beyond doubt when I received an email from a person from that site stating:

" Leave the XXXXX alone and your problems will go away ".

I still think it's connected and may post out out of public view, some supporting facts.

Can someone tell me why, when I type below the level of this message box, the box itself jumps up and down, and I cannot see what I am typing, and continually have to scroll down to see. Then start typing blind again.  Is it an issue on my end, because it happens 9 times out of ten.....?


Cupie, they are trying to outlaw sniping now are they not

[bobbybigbear]

Poddy, it's a pity Al Capone is unable to transfer his ill-gotten gains into a bank account. I think we've been here before.

No but multiple accounts are allowed, and goods bought with the proceeds of a Paypal account can be sold on another online site, can be used to buy normal household expense items, presents, overseas payments to accounts which are then returned as cash deposits, quite often shared through families to avoid ATO detection.

This leaves a persons income, especially if on a Centrelink payment, all free to live on, and maintaining and unfair advantage over the needy, who are not aware of this method of cheating.

The finacial institutions are still being used to launder money, that's why ID theft is so prevalent.

[*cupie*]

Cupie, they are trying to outlaw sniping now are they not

Yeah I heard that, can't see how they can police it though...even if they had minute extra for late bidding i.e. the auction extends.....wouldn't it make any shilling that much more obvious and labour intensive?  Not sure...this is a subject that I'm not well researched on and that's why I invited Phil here to let us all know how it works. or doesn't...lol

As for me...I won't bid anymore until the end of the auction and if they police that...well...I just won't bid at all.....It's amazing...I'm in a rural location and when Ebay hit town they were going to solve all our problems with access and availability of goods....now, they're extorting most of us over it...so it's less an inconvenience, than it is a disadvantage and I view that as extortionist.....either Join Paypal or the door to e-commerce is duly slammed in the face of those with the least access to buying and selling goods.  Hey and right in the middle of a recession when that access is needed more than ever?  Heroes aren't they?  What was it Danny boy said?  Good Corporate Citizens?  oh please.

Anyway once again, we're getting off topic....we should open a Paypal debate thread actually...it's such a sore point all on it's own merit.

[*CountessA*]

Shill bidding is one of the reasons I have planned my bidding strategy. It's also due to having observed that an item with a bid on it may attract higher bids from other buyers, so that a bidding war begins. I try not to signal to other buyers that I'm interested in an item, so in general, if I am going to bid on an item, I will ONLY place a snipe bid using a free sniping service.

If I'm worried the seller might pull the item because there are no other bids in it, I might place a holding bid (minimum). That way, the seller at least knows his item is going to sell.

I always place my maximum bid using the sniping service. If I don't win, it won't be because I was playing the "stingy game".

But the issue of shill bidding has affected my willingness to bid, too. I'm prepared to be outbid by another serious bidder, or to have my bid pushed up to its maximum because another genuine bidder is also seriously interested - but I don't like having my bid pushed up because the seller wants to get a higher price through faking interest from a spurious other bidder.

By the way, I've never received a second chance offer. Could this be due to the sort of items on which I bid? Can I ask what sort of items people have bid upon to receive an SCO? Is it possibly electronic items?

[bobbybigbear]

Cue I have lived in a rural area since 2004, so I know exactly what your talking bout.

Countess, as I have stated, mainly from Power sellers, which raises suspicion given what many of us suspect about this genre of seller.

To defeat shill bidding, you need discipline, and set the price your willing to go to, regardless od any sort of bidding, and sit back and wait and see what happens.

I never bother with auctions now, I have watched them, waiting to snipe at the last minute, but since moving here, I have found ADSL almost as slow as the old dial up days, so a sniper prgramme will always defeat you.

The technology is their to defeat these programmes so ebay wouldn't have much problem getting rid of them.

[Poddy]

There was one seller I exposed a while ago who sent out second chance offers to all bidders over a certain price.

He claimed that he was selling genuine Apple Ipods, but they were fake.

He would shill bid these fakes up to a high price and then send out the SCOs

I tried to get his opperation pulled but ebay ignored it for 2 weeks or more.
He was selling around 10 a day at around $150 a time plus SCOs.

In the end all i could do was contact the bidders and alert then that they were fake and then bid on all of them at $500 each the seller was pissed but in the end eBay did close him down.

[*Yibida*]

That's a valid point Bobby. The hidden bidder system also eliminates fake SCO's. This was a pro-active step to combat fraud.

Poddy, you edited post 66 and made it 'less baiting' before you knew I had seen it.

Riff..all members have the ability to review and amend post's before they are permanent, I think every member has a 30 minute widow to do this, how many times have you thought wish I could go back into my post to change something I wasn't happy with?.. I think this one single feature is worth it's weight in gold, many potential arguments can be avoided by having this feature to be able to re-think your wording..........

[bobbybigbear]

Poddy, are you telling us that you subcribe to the theory of honest shill bidding/ auction bombing, to expose a scammer.....?

And did you perform this action with legally registered ID's traceable to you........?