IS PAYMATE IN BED WITH PAYPAL?

[Rebel*1*]

A friend of mine visited recently and was telling me that he'd decided to have an online ebay garage sale now that Paypal is not a mandatory option.  He believed, as many do, that he could simply join Paymate and start selling, but after having gone through their membership process, he got to a screen that he printed down and showed me. 

It said specifically:

"*Ebay sellers must have a Feedback Count (AS A SELLER) of at least 10 in the last 6 months, with a Positive Feedback rating of at least 98% for PROVISIONAL APPROVAL"

This applies to new and returning ebay sellers, who are both expected to get 10 recent seller feedbacks before Paymate will even consider letting them offer their now 'elite' Paypal flavoured payment system. 

He called Paymate and put to them that the only way to get a current feedback rating as a seller under these terms was to Join Paypal.  There being NO OTHER WAY,he could possibly sell on ebay in the first place without offering one or the other. 

As my friend and I agreed (as mere consumers),  if it were a matter of verification, then neither he nor I would have an objection to an Aust Post 100 Pt ID Verification.  The same process banks use to verify their account holders in house.   

So I rang Paymate and told them I was a long standing member of Ebay, years in fact, and that I'd stopped selling only two years ago because of the imposition of Paypal as a mandatory option (as many others did).

I  asked why I or anyone else would be required to join Paypal (a so called 'competitor') simply to gain access to Paymate as an alternative?

The Paymate rep, denied that this is what their 'Minimum Requirements' actually stated, and claimed no collusion on Paymates part, with Ebay or Paypal over it.  (but then again, the guy volunteered that defense as if it was part of a script). So I got the impression that many other people had raised the same allegation.   

The person I spoke to, kept insisting that there were other payment methods (i.e. merchant facility), through which I could get the feedback needed, and which I pointed out to him repeatedly, was not available to anyone other than merchants, dohhh.  So, logically there was only one other way to get the required feedback = being forced to join Paypal. Checkmate !  It is what it is.

I asked Paymate, why they offered no alternative provision for membership by way of Aust Post 100pt ID check.  I was advised that Paymate would consider this only if I sent the ID information directly to them. 

However, even then, they would not guarantee approval of an account on that basis because it wasn't one of their policies??  Craziness.

So I rang ACCC, and although they agreed, it smacks of 'third line forcing' in terms of how it looks, and the practical outcome of such a pre-requisite, it isn't apparently. 

Paymate, don't specifically state that you have to join Paypal to get the feedback required to use Paymate.  Even though that's the only way you can get the required feedback to meet their minimum requirements?.  LOL Convenient right. 

If Paymate and Paypal haven't concocted this little sweetheart deal, then what would be Paymate's reasoning for pushing all new and returning sellers directly back to Paypal?  Seems to me to gain access to one, you have to first join the other, even if it doesn't say that specifically.  That's the outcome.  So Why bother? 

It seems that anyone who stopped selling because of POOPAL being imposed over their choice and access two years ago, will be nonetheless met with this same requirement by defacto.   So nothing's changed.  It's still Paypal first or nothing.

Ebay have managed to pervert that option too with their usual misuse of market power and anti-competitive conduct. Same shite, different way?

This is just my consumer opinion, and I'm happy for someone to prove me wrong.  i.e. demonstrate how to avoid having to join Paypal just to offer Paymate as a so called alternative? and if that's not possible, then explain how that doesn't resemble third line forcing or anti competitive conduct in practice?     Not in bed together? 
 

[*Brum6y*]

Is there anything that limits the sales history of a seller to eBay sales?

Would 10 sales via OZtion, for example, satisfy them?

[Rebel*1*]

I'm not sure, but I'm betting NOT (in terms of that being enough).    Try ringing them and putting that to them.  At least they're easier to get hold of than Poopal from what I've heard about the latter.

 It's just more 'conditional' ebay bullshit as far as I can see.  What possible reason could Paymate have for pushing everyone to their so called 'opposition'?  Another Yahoo type deal? Just "Buy Off' the competition?  Not unlikely for ebay.  Just part of their 'predatory' business model.  

[bnwt]

further to eBay's so called Safer Payment Options

because I believed that the announcement that sellers could now offer credit cards as a payment option was illusory I wrote a letter to Ina Steiner of Auctionbytes. I explained that no bank was prepared to give any sellers online merchant facilities when eBay did not have the proper payment gateways in place

she contacted eBay Australia and today I was rung by none other then Daniel Feiler

he explained that it was correct that eBay did not have online payment gateways but a seller could sign up to a third party check-out (approved by eBay)(Vendio, Auctiva etc) and they could process the payment but the seller would still need to have online merchant facilities provided by a bank ... so two lots of fees per transaction as well as two annual fees, two joining fees etc

I mentioned to him that got the impression banks saw eBay in a very unfavourable light and from speaking with them thought it unlikely they would give me merchant facilities, he seemed aware of this and also mentioned that the banks would want sellers to have a large monthly turnover

so while eBay may claim that sellers can now offer merchant credit cards as a "safe" payment option they know in reality that the probability of sellers actually doing it is EXTREMELY unlikely


why am I not surprised

[*wheels*]

bnwt, just shows how influential Ina Steiner and Auctionbytes is.

Have you looked at eWay at all? I haven't checked their costs but I've seen ads for their creditcard payment gateway.

[Rebel*1*]

why am I not surprised?  lmao.  Yes bnwt.  I'm not surprised either.  Ebay are just making it LOOK like there are 'alternatives', but failing to provide the minimum requirements for banks to even consider it?  Unbelievably typical.  Not predatory?  So Merchant facilities are also a Kingsize spin ?  What payment options?  Paypal?  

This is the very essence of misuse of market power.  bnwt.  Is there ANY WAY, I can convince you to make a similar complaint to ACCC.  Please?  Just cc your email to auctionbytes.  They rely on public enquiries to form the basis of any reasonable investigation of TPA breaches like this.

You might remember that when they first imposed Poopal, the checkout was so IN YOUR FACE, with bank deposit a tiny dot at the bottom, that many of us sent screen shots and complained big time to RBA and ACCC, who therefore kept monitoring Ebay for misuse of market power.  

If Merchant Facility is as equally hard to access as Paymate, then it certainly is deterring fair competition.  Get up em !!!  You are a small business person being dominated.  Fight back I dare ya.  LOL  Make the complaint official with ACCC and ask them why Ebay is preventing you from easily accessing merchant facility as a legitimate alternative by not installing the minimum requirements that banks insist on??

[*Brum6y*]

(Skip back a couple of posts...)

One thought is that Paymate simply wanted to set some standard when it came to eBay sellers (when you consider some of the sellers out there, that isn't an unreasonable approach) and just put up a minimum they could get away with. The real-life consequences of which just didn't get thought through.

Dumb - definitely - but we've all seen businesses make dumb decisions.  My recent favourite is OZtion whacking on listing fees for the sellers that were going to bring traffic - before thay had the traffic to sustain them.

Then again, Paymate may have thought it through and still stuck to their guns as a risk management move, with the thinking that getting the required points up on the board was 'not their problem'.  Again, no collusion, but just as onerous.


But I will admit, I cannot eliminate the possibility of the 'deal' you suggest.

[Rebel*1*]

Brumby there are always 'what ifs' but at the end of the day, if Paymate wanted to stand alone and hold 'seller's accountable in the real world for any chargebacks where it counts, all they had to do was implement 100 pt. ID verification via Aust Post and provide a contract that holds the seller (fully verified by objective means as banks do), responsible and accountable.  End of story.  

I don't have to join a competitor organisation to be eligible for a credit card, bank account or merchant facility with a bank.  They verify my Identity 'in house', and they abide by Australian Laws in terms of confidentiality and privacy.  Paypal and Paymate live on another planet.  oh sorry, I meant in another country.

Being a member of paypal does not automatically guarantee that a seller is reliable or accountable, particularly when Paypal rely on the de-facto verification of banks, whom they refuse to give access to their marketplace.  The only way to hold anyone accountable is to verify their TRUE identity and that's why banks have this minimum requirement via ID check.  The law requires that in every direction as a minimum requirement for any recourse.  

This whole thing stinks.

[bnwt]

wheels

eWay have no eBay gateway

apparently they did speak sometime earlier in the year but nothing has come of it

[bnwt]

rebel

yeap already spoke with the ACCC .. they said it was not really anything to do with them but did make notes and suggested I call ASIC

ASIC said much the same thing and suggested I call the ACCC

[*Brum6y*]

Ah - the bureaucratic runaround.

Some things never change......

[*Brum6y*]

... but to be fair, I suppose that eBay and Paypal have such expertise dancing around the edges of the law, that it makes it difficult for definitive action to be taken...


... until, of course, the public (that is served by these departments) demands it!

[Rebel*1*]

I know it always seems like a runaround and don't kid yourself that I didn't pose the same question to ACCC.  What came of that is that present law does NOT cover it under TPA and soon that will be replaced with a broader legislation.  What they suggested to me is that CONSUMERS GENERALLY need to campaign for an E-Commerce Ombudsman generally with their respective Pollies.  Great idea I think.  E-Commerce is the biggest cowboy wild west in creation.  It's about time it was regulated.

[*wheels*]

wheels

eWay have no eBay gateway

apparently they did speak sometime earlier in the year but nothing has come of it

Could you sign up with eWay and accept creditcard payments for eBay sales by phone? I've seen lots of listings where the sellers accept payment that way. I assume they have a full merchant facility, probably through a B & M store. Wouldn't you be able to do the same thing using eWay and you mark sales as 'paid' in the same way as you would with payment by bank deposit.

[*Brum6y*]

I have a niggling feeling that eBay would want a concrete link to a Merchant Facility.

If I take what you are saying correctly, you could run with bank deposit or money orders behind the scenes, since they wouldn't be able to see what you were actually doing ... and that would fall foul of what I see is the benefit to buyers - that they have a choice of a payment method that facilitates the 'charge-back' concept.

[*wheels*]

No Brumby, some sellers have always offered Credit Card as a payment method option.

eg. this seller where we bought a dog kennel
item # 230467272560

Payment was made over the phone by credit card.

[Rebel*1*]

But no payment gateway access on Ebay itself so all alternative payment methods get EQUAL standing including Paymate?  If they are all apparently equal in the name of competition then all this runaround shouldn't be needed.

If all three are acceptable then all three need to be in checkout.   The fact that they'll still give Bank Deposit an 'unsafe' rating has nothing to do with the safety of that payment method.  It directly relates to the honesty 'or not' of ebay sellers and the non existent accountability they currently enjoy devoid of something as basic as ' ID verification'

[*Brum6y*]

No Brumby, some sellers have always offered Credit Card as a payment method option.

eg. this seller where we bought a dog kennel
item # 230467272560

Payment was made over the phone by credit card.

Yes, but they have been forced to offer Paypal over the last couple of years.  THAT would be the channel that would satisfy the 'powers that be' that a verifiable facility that allowed for charge back was available to buyers - and that buyers had the option to take it up, if they were uncomfortable about the risks with the seller.  The fact that the seller offered another payment option that allowed for this was a benefit to the buyer - but is not one that eBay could verify.

So if the seller were to NOT have Paypal, Paymate nor an integrated Merchant Facility, then eBay could not be assured that the seller actually provided an equivalent Merchant Facility via Mail Order/Telephone Order type procedures.

Ensuring the availability of a 'charge-back' -able option is what I see as the kernal of the change.

[Liisa-Sx]

Paypal are not silly, they permitted Paymate to come on board knowing full well that due to the costs and Policies with a Paymate transaction, especially as Paymate were given restrictions and had to impliment new policy and then NOT integrating a feasable buyer/seller protection to be included on Ebay that they would be no threat to PayPal.

"Following highly publicised criticism and investigation by the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission (ACCC), eBay Australia’s Accepted Payment Policy will be revised as of July 14th 2010.
eBay say that due to the changes the “ACCC has decided to discontinue its current inquiries into eBay’s payment policies. However, this does not restrict the ACCC from reviewing the effects of eBay or PayPal’s conduct in Australia if it raises competition concerns in the future”. IF they can get eBays thumbprint off their forehead.

Moving forward in Australia many sellers will still be obliged to offer PayPal, but for those with either a Paymate account or who have their own merchant credit card facility the compulsion to offer PayPal will cease. Really? and How do we do that with the same level of protection?

It does open the interesting question – do buyers *really* prefer PayPal? Will sellers continue to offer PayPal as an alternative payment method alongside Paymate or credit cards and if they don’t will it put off customers from purchasing from their listings? In fact dare I go so far as to say "some" buyers would Prefer we use Paymate for obvious reasons......Kaching! I can hear them now "Show ME The Money"

So this isn't a concern? Have the ACCC started doing the horizontal with Ebay?

Has anyone wondered why Paymate HAD to drop shared fees for Ebay use, or why as a "preferred payment option" it has NO buyer or seller protection policy?

Ebay/Paypal cooked up this little scheme to appease the ACCC, once again deftly pulling the wool over their eyes, it is not feasable to use PayMate, PayPal is already a minefield for PayPal facilitated fraud in the guise of Thieving buyers and fraudulent chargebacks and they give us an option that has NO protection period, none..nada.

As someone else so aptly stated:
"The Ebay “announcement” was so vague that no sensible person or business can even begin to evaluate the usefulness of even pre-registering for who knows what terms of service, Paymate may be a wonderful company to deal with but one has to question whether that is true when they let themselves be introduced in such a way by eBay.

Compounding this is the almost invisible terms and procedures from Paymate itself many of which you wont find out till you sign up and the BS foisted apon us hand over fist by PayPal.

The announcement is typical eBay non-informative (the details, when determined will kill you) by eBay MBAs (Master Bs Artist)"

Bank chargebacks are only possible if the payment is funded by a credit or Visa debit card.
Only a percentage of Paypal payments are card funded, all Paymate payments are so sellers are at an even higher risk of fraud..

Paymates own site states.....
NOTE that eBay.com.au does not offer a Buyer Protection Program for payments via Paymate.

Paymate have not changed their buyer claims, its still 2 per year and still at a charge of $50.

Ebay is CLEARLY discouraging the use of Paymate on it’s site.

Their ONLY intention was getting around anti-competition laws, which they did with terrifying ease.

Nice one Paypal, they 'think' we are all idiots.

If that is not steering then what is?


PS: And why was a legitimate Q and A on the ebay forums instigated BY Dilip Rao (Paymate CEO) Whipped off the forums before you could say "Paypal" ???

[Liisa-Sx]

By the way, I found this on the US forums it was dated AFTER the post by Dilip was pulled on Ebay.au:

Hi eBayer's,

Thanks for making us welcome! This is not the appropriate forum for us to discuss Paymate services, so I regret I cannot respond to your queries or comments any further.

We appreciate the opportunity extended to us by eBay and will continue to work closely with them to make our services useful to the eBay membership.

Watch out for our own Paymate Community forum planned for later this quarter, (because we are gagged by PayPal?) where we can debate items of interest to our clients and partners.

Happy trading in 2010!

Dilip Rao
Founder & President

To which someone replied:

"Well if this isn't the "right" forum for answering our questions regarding this particular service offered thru the ebay system, then what is the appropriate time & place?

And the intial question asked is still unanswered! Nuf said. So no one will find out until ebay says they find out."
www.paymate.com

[Rebel*1*]

Compounding this is the almost invisible terms and procedures from Paymate itself many of which you wont find out till you sign up and the BS foisted apon us hand over fist by PayPal.

Yes Liisa, it was the fact that my friend didn't find out about the pseudo third line forcing by way of the minimum requirement notation, until he'd finished the registration process.  It was only then that he realised just what a farce it all was.   ACCC WAS interested in that aspect.   It's misleading.  Had he seen that on the very first page, in fact the home page, he said he would never have bothered applying.  As I said above, all Paymate are now, is a Paypal flavoured clone.  

I'm going to go through their information pages and see how deeply that 'minimum requirement' is buried.  It SHOULD be on the Paymate home page IN GREAT BIG WRITING, to warn all potential customers not to bother giving Paymate their personal membership info, but to join Paypal instead or use the nearest exit.  Or words to that effect, as long as they don't actually say what it is they're doing to mislead consumers, all is well with the world apparently.  

I'm going to call ACCC again today and let them know about the Merchant Facility farce as well.  I'll read them that media comment i.e.  “ACCC has decided to discontinue its current inquiries into eBay’s payment policies. However, this does not restrict the ACCC from reviewing the effects of eBay or PayPal’s conduct in Australia if it raises competition concerns in the future”.  Moving forward in Australia many sellers will still be obliged to offer PayPal, but for those with either a Paymate account or who have their own merchant credit card facility the compulsion to offer PayPal will cease.

Realistically, it's all lip service as usual.   What competition has this preserved or promoted?  Paymate is now in bed with Paypal, and Merchant facilities won't touch Ebay without a formal and 'secure' checkout process.    Have I got that right bnwt?  Ebay are not providing the 'minimum requirements' for Merchant Facility to be used safely? i.e via secure checkout?

[Liisa-Sx]

Compounding this is the almost invisible terms and procedures from Paymate itself many of which you wont find out till you sign up and the BS foisted apon us hand over fist by PayPal.

Yes Liisa, it was the fact that my friend didn't find out about the pseudo third line forcing by way of the minimum requirement notation, until he'd finished the registration process.  It was only then that he realised just what a farce it all was.   ACCC WAS interested in that aspect.   It's misleading.  Had he seen that on the very first page, in fact the home page, he said he would never have bothered applying.  As I said above, all Paymate are now, is a Paypal flavoured clone.  

I'm going to go through their information pages and see how deeply that 'minimum requirement' is buried.  It SHOULD be on the Paymate home page IN GREAT BIG WRITING, to warn all potential customers not to bother giving Paymate their personal membership info, but to join Paypal instead or use the nearest exit.  Or words to that effect, as long as they don't actually say what it is they're doing to mislead consumers, all is well with the world apparently.  

I'm going to call ACCC again today and let them know about the Merchant Facility farce as well.  I'll read them that media comment i.e.  “ACCC has decided to discontinue its current inquiries into eBay’s payment policies. However, this does not restrict the ACCC from reviewing the effects of eBay or PayPal’s conduct in Australia if it raises competition concerns in the future”.  Moving forward in Australia many sellers will still be obliged to offer PayPal, but for those with either a Paymate account or who have their own merchant credit card facility the compulsion to offer PayPal will cease.

Realistically, it's all lip service as usual.   What competition has this preserved or promoted?  Paymate is now in bed with Paypal, and Merchant facilities won't touch Ebay without a formal and 'secure' checkout process.    Have I got that right bnwt?  Ebay are not providing the 'minimum requirements' for Merchant Facility to be used safely? i.e via secure checkout?

Rebel, when you do contact the ACCC point out to them that PayPal IS indeed steering by NOT permitting any seller protection with Paymate and that for most sellers it is NOT a viable payment alternative period, Paymate have been given restrictions and they charge a $50 FEE for any dispute limited to twice a year, and NOTE that eBay.com.au does not offer a Buyer Protection Program for payments via Paymate.

Thus making Paymate a NON starter and steering everyone right back to PayPal.

[Rebel*1*]

What they were being monitored for previously, was 'misuse of market power' and anti competitive conduct.  i.e. deterring consumers from using other payment methods, which we all witnessed them do in real time.    I see nothing different in this latest round of wag the dog ebay style. 

The outcome is that sellers and consumers are STILL not able to choose between 1 of 3 payment methods, because Ebay have ensured that access is completely obstructed, and overcomplicated with anything other than Paypal.  Doesn't that look like they're deterring consumers from using other payment methods?  Again?  In fact they are also essentially preventing Sellers from offering it via their obstruction, and in that regard they are deterring businesses from engaging in competitive conduct. 

In all common sense, if Ebay wanted to turn their flagging marketplace around, all they'd have to do is to provide an 'opt in' buyer protection scheme, where buyers themselves, tick a box in checkout and pay 50 cents per $100.00 of coverage when using payment methods other than Poopal.  The seller would add that to their invoice to the buyer, and Ebay would include it in the sellers fees. 

something like the following: 

1) Verify the identity of all sellers via Aust Post 100 point ID check for the purpose of accountability in any dispute. = increased buyer confidence in terms of recourse.
2) Implement a buyer protection programme for all buyers using payment methods other than paypal.  i.e. b/deposit or Paymate
3) Ensure that all sellers offering other payment methods are registered for the scheme under their REAL identities. Just like filling out an insurance policy application for anything else (Insurance companies don't cover anonymous people).
4) Install an 'opt in' buyer protection link in Checkout so buyers can elect how much coverage they feel they may need for each purchase.  i.e. 50 cents per $100.00 coverage.  This is not unlike paying registration and insurance when sending a parcel through Aust Post.  The buyer pays for the protection, not the seller.

5) Seller to include insurance cost in buyer invoice, and Ebay to include those fees in the sellers invoice.  In this way, Ebay and the Seller are the ones offering the insurance coverage mutually to buyers using those payment methods.  Sellers who don't wish to be part of the scheme, can keep offering Paypal only if they choose.

The only purpose in having sellers register under the scheme, (as verified individuals or businesses) is to legitimise any coverage.  As I said, Insurance companies don't cover anonymous people or events.  As Above, Aust Post have the very same insurance scheme that they offer to buyers using their service.  Nothing different here.

I believe that if Ebay did something like this, many buyers and sellers (long since disillusioned) might consider returning.   Ebay was once such an easy place to list things.  I was helping a friend the other night try to negotiate the selling process now, and we were just stunned at how complicated it has all become.  We gave up. 

[Liisa-Sx]

Sorry, second last line of my post should read"does not offer a Seller protection program" not buyer...they do offer buyer protection at Great risk to sellers, PayPal does however do thourough checks and ensure payment is made done and dusted before telling the seller that the payment has been made, unlike paypal who does NOT.

Having said this, I think Paymate will see a Huge incease in chargebacks and item not recieved disputes, and poor sellers will have NO recourse...none..unless you pay up, and only twice per annum.

[*wheels*]

I think Paymate will see a Huge incease in chargebacks and item not recieved disputes, and poor sellers will have NO recourse...none..unless you pay up, and only twice per annum.

Liisa, why would there be a huge increase in chargebacks and INR disputes if PayMate make it harder to lodge a claim than PayPal? PayMate charges the buyer $50 to lodge the claim, not the seller. Or have I read it wrong?

[*wheels*]

http://www.paymate.com/cms/index.php/buyers/buyer-protection

Paymate offers a Buyer Protection Program only for purchases made from Paymate-approved TrustMark sellers under the following terms:
 
* Buyer must accept the terms of the Paymate TrustMark Program when making a purchase, including payment for traceable and receipted shipment;

* Refund of up to $3,000 per buyer per purchase with $50 deductible per claim for goods not received or goods substantially not as described;

* A claim must be filed with Paymate within 30 days of the initial purchase via Paymate;

* Payment must be made via Paymate and credit card under our Terms of Use with normal Paymate fees applicable;

* Purchase must be for physical goods, not services, for delivery within the approved countries listed on our website via a traceable shipment method;

* If goods are received but are not substantially as described, goods need to be returned intact to the seller at buyer's cost and provide ‘proof of shipment’ (an online-traceable shipping method). If you are unable to return the goods to the seller (e.g. no return address) then the goods need to be returned intact to Paymate at the buyer’s cost.

* A Police Report may be required at Paymate's discretion;

* After two claims in a 12-month period the buyer will not be eligible for further claims;

* Limit of $3,000 in claims against a single seller (i.e. purchases from sellers with claims in excess will no longer be protected);

* Seller must be in good standing with Paymate at the time of purchase and an approved participant in the Paymate TrustMark Program;

* You have not initiated another form of resolution processing, including a credit card chargeback or a dispute under the eBay Buyer Protection Program.

[Liisa-Sx]

Hi Wheels, I meant in terms of credit card chargebacks, the fact they have to pay $50 to file a dispute with PayMate will deter ANY buyer I assume so they will do it via their bank and bypass any protection, however having said that buers ARE covered by the Ebay Buyer protection as well, sellers get zip lol

It is another grey area that neither Ebay, paypal or paymate are actually properly disclosing anywhere.

How does the buyer protection work with paymate exactly in regards to buyers being covered by the ebay Buyer protection? Does this mean that the costly and limited procedure stated by PayPal is moot? I cannot find proper relevant info, I'll look later my personal PC has gone into meltdown and is currently in PC hospital lol and I am using the work machine so I have nothing saved here.

[*wheels*]

Liisa, there is no eBay buyer protection for PayMate payments. This is what you get when you click on the "see details" link next to Buyer Payments on a listing that offers PayMate:

Payment details / Payment method   / Buyer protection on eBay

Credit or debit card through PayPal
Accepted
Pay with PayPal and you may be protected up to $20,000. Conditions apply

Paymate
Accepted
See your credit card issuer's terms

Bank Deposit
Accepted
Not Available

[Liisa-Sx]

On the Paymate site yes, but Ebay stated "somewhere" buyers would be covered on all Ebay purchases with the same Ebay Buyer protection that PayPal offers, I wish i had th eother PC I had it bookmarked there.

Having just looked for it it's gone!!! I distinctly recall seeing the two line announcement prior to PayMate being implimented that when integrated with Ebay buyers would have Ebay seller protection!!!

Ok so now it appears Buyers have no real protection if they use paymate as well and like sellers would have to rely soley on PayMate to mediate and rectify any issues.

In my looksee just now I found this statement instead:

In an interview with iTWire , eBay Australia spokesman Daniel Feiler said: "People are less likely to end up in a dispute if they pay by PayPal than other payment methods such as bank deposits." He also said: "Paymate doesn’t have a buyer protection program; it doesn’t have a seller protection program; and unlike PayPal, there’s no ability for eBay to share the data with Paymate.",

erm... then how are they integrated into the ebay checkout?????????

Now get this bit....
"eBay say they cannot share risk data with Paymate – this is their restriction, not ours," said Mr Rao.  "We already have a capability to place payments on hold until risk elements are investigated or an escrow process initiated for funds settlement subject to buyer approval – we can easily do this via integration with eBay.

"These packages are really to some extent really marketing offers so that people feel confident using the service. The reality is you have to manage every dispute if there is one," Mr Rao told iTWire.

"We have offered a specific (buyer protection) program packaged that way on Oztion, which is a small Australian auction site. They collaborate with us and promote our service. Similarly if eBay give us access to their marketplace, we would be more than happy to provide an equivalent buyer protection program."

OK Found it!!!!
January 20, 2010

Paymate, an innovative provider of Internet payment services, announced today that buyers using the company?s service on eBay are now covered under the eBay Buyer Protection Policy.


In my opinion this is Open and blatant steering right out of the horses mouth.

[*wheels*]

Liisa,

that PayMate announcement may be for eBay.com as all payment methods are now covered by Buyer Protection

http://pages.ebay.com/coverage/index.html

[Rebel*1*]

So, as I said, If Ebay implemented an 'opt in' buyer protection program to insure purchases (similar to Aust Post's insurance scheme that consumers pay for on an 'opt in' basis), then the other payment methods including Paymate would be covered easily and cost effectively.  But then, that would make B/deposit and Paymate more attractive and we can't have that in all this 'covert' deterrence of other payment methods can we?

Ebay started all this crap with their commodification of fraud into a product called Paypal.  Prior to that, they argued that there was only a tiny problem with fraud.   All I know is that prior to Paypal, Ebay was easy to use, was flourishing with a huge diversity of sellers and goods, and a healthy level of buyers.  Since Paypal was imposed, Ebay is complicated, predatory, hostile and expensive, with a predominance of mass produced retail crap and very few collectibles.   No fun in that I'm afraid.  Did they miss the point ?

[*wheels*]

There already is an opt-in Buyer Protection program on eBay, it's called PayPal.

I think it is much more likely that eBay will extend their Buyer Protection Program to all sites rather than introducing other opt-in progams in different countries. Of course they would have to remove what they call 'unsafe' payments, ie bank deposits, as accepted payment methods as they have done in the US.

[shyer]

* After two claims in a 12-month period the buyer will not be eligible for further claims

This is for small buyers last year I spent over $100,000 on pay$pal in one account alone and got some $30,000 in refunds or adjustments in 60 disputes from 300 buys. This ratio might seem high, but if I buy perfect or mint I do NOT accept, not sent, fakes or damaged goods. USA worst in my experience. I only buy cheap stuff from china I expect to be fake from ebay.

The other problem paymate has was ebay said to paymate our rules or we look elsewhere. Some small company would have steped up . Google pay or any other real compeditor will never be allowed on eaby, unless legislated.

While others have mentioned Post insurance it is expensive it ONLY covers for loss. So if damaged of fake before or during postage too bad. Credit card chargebacks are the only real weapon the comsumer has and pay$pal and paymate know it. I predict ebay will continue to lose ITS SHARE of internet sales. UNTILL a real check of sellers done like Amazon and a REAL eye kept on buyers with to high a $ % OF CLAIMS to payments.

You can effectively avoid pay$pal as a seller, selling over $100,000 on ebay last year various accounts, my pay$pal receipts were around $10,000. And about 150 items went out registered only about 15 of those insured. I have 2 simple rules any payment method if item over $400 or buyer dodgy registered. If paypal payment used, any item over $50 registered.

Be aware that not all overseas registered mail, in or out has P$P accepted tracking.

[*smee*]

actually Aust Post compensates for loss or damage upto $50 for unregisterd parcels , $100 for registered or upto insured value for registerd with extra insurance

[shyer]

Hi smee,

From here,

http://auspost.com.au/statutorydocuments/generalpostalservices/frame.htm

Proof of Damage

14.1 A Claimant for damage to an article must provide to Australia Post the damaged article, the wrappings in which the article was carried and delivered together with sufficient evidence to permit Australia Post to reasonably determine that:

14.1.1 the article ; was in Australia Post's reasonable opinion adequately packed and

14.1.2 the damage occurred during the carriage of the article by Australia Post or any subsequent authorised carrier of the article

What this means when a clain is lodged is EVEN packed in a steel container with 50mm of packing a vintage metal part was damaged and steel container needed to have been hit with a slrge hammer or larger to cause damage metal container had. Plus force to damage part.

Claim refused as item "was in Australia Post's reasonable opinion INadequately packed"

[*smee*]

I personally have made a succesful claim against Aust Post for damage for an item that was posted in an Aust Post post pack .....

but you are entitled to your opinion

never the less Aust Posts compensation policy should not enter into a discussion of Paymate versus Paypal as I am sure Aust Post dont give a tinkers cuss as to how the item was paid for ! IMO

[Rebel*1*]

In all my time selling & buying on ebay prior to Poolpal only, I had five successful claims against Aust Post for broken or MIA parcels.  They just send a Money Order in the mail.

You have to understand their claims process, and how to argue the usual crap they'll first feed you to avoid liability.  Not getting a receipt for regular post is a typical mistake most sellers make.  You can ask for a receipt and/or other 'proof of postage' because AP require claimants to prove postage. 

Hence, they must provide a receipt for the purpose of proving postage if requested. All a seller has to do is ask.  I always did, and then got the PO owner to sign the back with the recipients full name and address.  I've never lost a claim for a regular post item AP 'misplaced' whilst in their possession.

And as for it entering into this discussion, I said 'Aust Post like insurance program' i.e. consumer based, and opted into by the consumer if they pay for it)   Nothing to do with AP literally, just that they have a similar 'opt in' coverage, so it's possible for insurance companies to devise a similar consumer based coverage on Ebay.

Who do you think covers the compensation and insurance for AP?  I think AP are self insurers so they do it 'in house', but no doubt underwritten by a major insurance company.  I used it as an example of the 'type' of scheme it was, not what AP do with it.

[Rebel*1*]

Oh, and one of the those claims for damages was a doozy.  I listed an antique desk hutch with pigeon holes under a mtre long (only just), and made out of wood you'd have to take an axe to, in order to make any impression i.e. Oak.  Anyway, I packed it first with Foam sheets, then bubble wrap, and then finally corrugated cardboard on the outside with lots of tape.  It was solid as a rock. 

When it arrived at it's destination in WA however, AP had managed to literally smash one side panel of it, which had both the buyer and I gobsmacked, given it's construction and the packaging.  They would have literally had to have run over it, or smashed it full force with something really heavy. 

The buyer hadn't totally unpacked it yet, as the carton itself was damaged on delivery so she opened the damaged end only, and then she emailed me luckily.  I told her to leave it as is, and take it to her local PO for immediate inspection.  Also to send me photographs.  I lodged a successful claim against AP, because obviously, as I said, you would have needed an axe to make a dent in this thing.  AP had to agree, Lucking it had been registered and insured, so the buyer got a full refund. 

It doesn't always follow that breakages won't be covered.  It depends on the circumstances as above.

[Liisa-Sx]

Liisa,

that PayMate announcement may be for eBay.com as all payment methods are now covered by Buyer Protection

http://pages.ebay.com/coverage/index.html

Wheels yes, Ebay.com doe shave buyer protection on all Ebay sales and as such paymate transactions over there are covered with the buyer protection, however that same announcement WAS on ebay.au at one point then it went poof.

Curiously why are we not afforded the same level of protection, why is ebay deliberately and purposely steering buyers and sellers away from payMate because of a tight fisted deal they made, why can ebay continue to get away with it all?

Enquiring minds want to know lol.
Sadly it is like asking "how long is a piece of string".

[Rebel*1*]

I've been thinking about why ACCC are being unhelpful in all of this.  It isn't unlike their response to the many thousands of us who complained about the Stage 1 mandatory Paypal option being imposed.  There was nothing they could do under their legislation at the time.   We had to bombard ACCC and various Pollies with 'public complaints' to get them to at least monitor the issue.   Two years later, Ebay were forced to include other payment methods and 'choice' over those payment methods to appease ACCC.   There had to be a reason why ACCC encouraged them to finally open up competition, but realistically, they haven't have they?    So are they misleading the ACCC as well as the public?  Looks like pure lip service.

All we can do once again, is keep making 'public complaints' to ACCC and Craig Emerson (who took over from Bowen)

The Hon Dr Craig Emerson MP
Title: Minister for Competition Policy and Consumer Affairs; Minister for Small Business, Independent Contractors and the Service Economy; Minister Assisting the Finance Minister on Deregulation.

Party: Australian Labor Party

Parliament House Contact
PO Box 6022
House of Representatives
Parliament House
Canberra ACT 2600

Tel: (02) 6277 7450
Fax: (02) 6273 9395

Online: Contact Form
http://www.aph.gov.au/house/members/memfeedback.asp?id=83V

Electorate Office Contact
Woodridge Office:
Location:
Logan Central Plaza
Wembley Road
Woodridge Qld 4114

Postal Address:
PO Box 349
Woodridge Qld 4114

Tel: (07) 3299 5910
Fax: (07) 3208 8744

[Rebel*1*]

This saga continues.  The same friend of mine has tried to figure out the ins and outs of Paypal, but I simply can't help him out on how to use it or safeguard himself.  He has a few questions that maybe someone will be kind enough to address:  

He is only joining paypal until he gets 10 feedback and then intends to resign his account and use Paymate as his second payment preference.  On that basis, he wants as little to do with Paypal as possible in terms of debit authorities etc.  

He has found out so far that he can add funds to the Paypal account with a card that will cost him around $5.00 purchased from various retailers.  Not sure if that applies here or in the US.   But he believes that if he sells something with that payment method, the money will be in the account and he won't have to worry about adding funds.  Can anyone confirm if he's able to simply Join Paypal without putting funds in his paypal account first, and if he does, are these cards he's talking about available in this country?

In the meantime, he doesn't want to give Paypal his bank or credit card details or a debit authority, if he's going to resign the account 10 f/backs later.  Is he able to join paypal without giving them access to a bank or credit card account?  

If so, when he wants to withdraw any funds that end up in that Paypal account, can he simply nominate a bank account they can transfer those funds to when he cancels the account?  He is hoping that most buyers will use bank deposit in the first 10 f/backs and then he can ditch Paypal without ever having to deal with them.   But if by chance, money ends up in Paypal, under these circumstances, can he withdraw the amount when he kills the account?  

One last question I've been tapped on the shoulder over.  Is it OK now to pass on paypal fees to consumers ?  He said he was looking on ebay recently and saw several sellers saying that in their listings i.e. that they charge a fee for the use of paypal.  Is that OK now?

We have already lamented the total unfairness of having to join Paypal in the first place, just to get access to the competition as an alternative.  But realistically, he just needs to find a way to get around this 'third line forcing' and get on with it.  

[Rebel*1*]

Hang on, one more.  The use of an email address in the Paypal system worries this mate of mine.  He has opened a clean account with his ISP for the sole purpose of using for Paypal & then Paymate, but is using another Email as his Ebay contact email.  Is that going to be a problem?  i.e. does the ebay email addie have to be the same as the Paypal addie? or can you use  separate email accounts so the spam isn't going to the same account.  

He has advised that when he signed up a new account the other day just with Ebay, he instantly started getting spam emails, including 5 dodgy Paypal emails.  Problem is, he hadn't even joined paypal yet.    

He's a bit concerned over why or how these fraudulent emails happened to show up within days after joining ebay?.   So he doesn't want to use the same email for his Paypal or Paymate membership as he uses for Ebay itself.  Is that possible?

[*Brum6y*]

While I'm no disciple for eBay or Paypal, they aren't necessarily the cause of spam showing up so soon.

You have to remember that, long before an email addy was put into eBay and/or Paypal ... it was created somewhere else.  I'm not sure of harvesting methods, but I've had spam that has a list of recipients that appear to be an alphabetical subset of my ISPs email address book.

This source has nothing to do with eBay or Paypal, with the point that they hadn't even joined Paypal yet further proof of that ..... but that doesn't mean eBay or Paypal don't have their own problems in this regard.


It's no different to getting phished on 'supposed' Westpac, Suncorp, Commonwealth, St George, etc., etc., etc. banks - when you've never had an account with them.

[Rebel*1*]

Well that's one concern down, but I have a totally different ISP to him and I get the same Paypal phishing emails regularly, In spates actually.  I recall getting at least four in a matter of two days recently myself. 

Nevertheless, given that he's opened a 'clean' email account with his local ISP, can he use that one for paypal, and the current one for Ebay?  or do they have to be identical?  He hasn't had the same spam to his 'clean' email addie since opening that account.  It seems that what triggered the paypal phishing emails may have been associated with his membership with Ebay or gmail. Anyway, not sure, but he wants to use a different email for paypal/paymate, to keep the usual spam from ebay out of that account too.  Just the number of emails ebay itself sends out is enough to test the patience of any consumer.   

[shyer]

..........  

If so, when he wants to withdraw any funds that end up in that Paypal account, can he simply nominate a bank account they can transfer those funds to when he cancels the account?  He is hoping that most buyer will use bank deposit in the first 10 f/backs and then he can ditch Paypal without ever having to deal with them.   But if by chance, money ends up in Paypal, under these circumstances, can he withdraw the amount when he kills the account?  

We have already lamented the total unfairness of having to join Paypal in the first place, just to get access to the competition as an alternative.  But realistically, he just needs to find a way to get around this 'third line forcing' and get on with it.  

Without going into details and becoming long and complicated. Yes you can use debit cards to open a paypal account But those cards need to be bank issued debit card accounts . Woolwoths austraia post ect ect the list is huge are NOT accepted by P$P. Only keep card balance at amount ebay monthly fee is.

Ebay has brainwashed 90%  of buyers on ebay into using P$P.

Firstly sell 20 or so cheap(important they are cheap under $5 best) things you will not need, outgrown toys, gifts, china, hardly used shoes every house has a hundred items like that if you look carefully. Only 1/2 your buyers will leave feedback. Secondly set up an internet bank account that is internet only access all banks have them. Anyone can deposit to these accounts but they canonly withdrawn to a normal bank account , same bank is not needed.

Start P$p verification process, and P$P will make two small deposits, x cents and XX cents to that account. DO NOT tell paypal what those amounts are. They will nag for months does not matter you are now partly verified, all you need. You can now withdraw $700 per month to that account. Depending on $ you expect to collect per month you may need more accounts. The idea is to always keep near zero amounts in P$P selling accounts and partly linked bank accounts.

I would also buy 50 / 300 Cheap $1/2 items inculuding post to get feedback up first whilw setting accounts up. If you are selling in $10 bracket feedback of 50 is respected if selling in $1000 bracket 300 or more is needed.

Always have seperate paypal buying and selling accounts buying accounts funded by credit card. ANZ best commonwealth worst. Selling accounts small sum debit card only

All ebay rules are applied on the basis for what earns ebay / P$P most fees. PAyment is forced into same fee structure . It is just like a communist goverment our way or banned to slave labour camp. The only long term way to discourage P$P and ebay rules for paymate . Is to add the price of normal post into bins smae for auctions, then offer free post for bank deposit ect. and then post will be full price.

Also for expensive itms post office COD is good, for 20% deposit even accept though P$P you post item, COD is about $10 dearer than normal post buyer pays at their local PO on pickup. Post office sends you a money order, you cash MO at your local PO put cash into wallet , what sale?

[shyer]

All ebay and P$P email accounts will get spam , is a fact of life. You will need to open and use new accounts. While ebay is best with ISP goes from rebel1@bigpudgle/com  to rebel2@bigpubble.com. P$P  is better with free email ie goes from rebel1@gmail to rebel2@gmail and so on. You when listing on ebay type in your P$P email, best if different.

I always use a paypal address like rebel2000@gmail which is an email account I control at gmail but never use that email for a paypal account. That way people who pay seconds after the auction who never saw option of free post can cancel payment then no fees or currency exchange fees for anyone. As money in limbo as P$P account never opened.

[Rebel*1*]

Thanks shyer, but I'm a bit confused.  I know about as much about Paypal intricacies as my neighbour/friend does.  I would have thought that it was best to have the Paypal account with a legitimate ISP and the Ebay account with the gmail account.  I'm jut wondering if you can have the separate one or whether ebay make you use the same one. 

I'm a bit lost with the rest of your post.  Don't you have to use a legitimate email account?  lol.  Not sure I'm any the wiser.  He doesn't actually want to encourage people to use Paypal, and only intends to offer it until he gets enough feedback to use Paymate.  Strange as that seems.  So whatever happens it will be a short relationship between them.  He's hoping he escapes unscathed.  LOL. 

[*smee*]

struth ..... how to complicate a simple reply


Rebel in brief , you can have  seperate email accounts for eBay and paypal yes they do not have to be the same

Yes you will need to provide paypal with a bank account number at some point so you can withdraw the funds you do not have to deposit funds into the paypal account especially since this account ion this instance is only for receiving money not used for buying
Paypal take their fees at each transaction (money in for sales  ) so there is no monthly bill as such 

I hope this has clarified some of you initial questions

[Rebel*1*]

OK, Shyer I got the first bit, so what you're saying is that he can't really open a Paypal account, unless he opens a new account, preferably unlinked to anything else, and they do the deposit withdrawal bit.  But is that the only way?  Why should he have to give them access if he's only going to use their service to get f/back for Paymate access?  It's all a lot to get your head around.  He definitely does NOT want to give them access to any bank account he currently has.  Who would?.  

As for putting people off using Paypal, I am going to call the RBA to find out if passing on the cost of this payment system is now OK.  If so, then he can go ahead and apply a percentage surcharge over the use of that payment system.  BTW, getting feedback as a buyer, whilst good to demonstrate at least some history, doesn't qualify with Paymate.  It has to be 'seller' f/back.  sheesh.  Always strings attached with Ebay these days.

This Debit Card option I'll have to look into because it's all new to me.  After he gets his f/back he'll join paymate and if people don't want to use that or b/deposit, then they miss out.  It should be up to the seller to offer the payment systems they prefer, not those feepay dictate.  Once upon a time, when I used to sell on ebay, I only offered b/deposit and money order.  I did perfectly fine for years, even after Paypal first came in.  

[Rebel*1*]

Thanks Smee. LOL, that was much easier.   Just let me confirm, the email address for both paypal and ebay, has to be the same then?  And if so, is it better to use a legitimate ISP account or a gmail one?

Obviously he's better off considering a debit card with no fees perhaps?  Or a no fee account or something that isn't connected to anything else?  That way he can control it himself and use the same one for Paymate and bank deposit.  Perhaps a bit cleaner that way.  

It's just easier to be able to tell him to go and open a new b/account and go from there, rather than trying to join Paypal without first having set it up.  Not easy or fun anymore. that's for certain