Author Topic: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....  (Read 39731 times)

tellomon

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #50 on: June 19, 2010, 01:20:07 AM »
I live with this crap. I listen to conservative talk radio all day, everyday.
I know a lot.

Glenn Beck is on the topic right NOW!

The socialist radicals have taken over, and there is NO LAW.
They set a fine example of how I can go off and totally throttle all the Genuine ButtHeads in town...and get away with it, and a clear conscience.
"The B@zturd Love Child of Comix & a News Organization"

*smee*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #51 on: June 19, 2010, 07:36:16 AM »
I reckon Obama and Tiger are the same bloke !!!!

Tello have you ever seen them in the same room at the same time ???

*r3830*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #52 on: June 19, 2010, 11:31:07 AM »
Geeeeeez smee..... That's a worry! Who was the girl they were with?  ;D

Liisa-Sx

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #53 on: June 20, 2010, 03:37:19 AM »
Glenn Beck is on the topic right NOW!


Glenn Beck...... hahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaa the guy is  an utter wackjob.
They said there would be cake....and there WAS!

*r3830*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2010, 05:16:02 PM »
Google runs to US over Australian filter

"Google is deeply concerned by Australia's plans to introduce a widely scoped, mandatory ISP filtering regime. We have voiced our concerns publicly and with many groups including the US State Department," Google spokesperson Lucinda Barlow told ZDNet.com.au today.



http://www.zdnet.com.au/google-runs-to-us-over-australian-filter-339302479.htm




*r3830*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #55 on: June 22, 2010, 07:22:23 PM »
'Secure your PC or lose the net'


A prominent cyber-security consultant, Alastair MacGibbon, who is a former director of the AFP's Australian High Tech Crime Centre and eBay's former security chief, has called for the proposal to be taken a step further by forcing ISPs to monitor the security of users' machines and block them from connecting if their browsers, security and operating system software are not up to standard.




http://www.smh.com.au/technology/security/secure-your-pc-or-lose-the-net-20100622-yuf5.html

As Tello would put it FLOCK EBAY - and FLOCK this MacGibbon fella as well!!

tellomon

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #56 on: June 22, 2010, 07:42:29 PM »
Glenn Beck is on the topic right NOW!


Glenn Beck...... hahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaa the guy is  an utter wackjob.

Oh yeah, well.... FLOCK YOU!
"The B@zturd Love Child of Comix & a News Organization"

*Brum6y*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #57 on: June 22, 2010, 08:36:46 PM »
'Secure your PC or lose the net'


A prominent cyber-security consultant, Alastair MacGibbon, who is a former director of the AFP's Australian High Tech Crime Centre and eBay's former security chief, has called for the proposal to be taken a step further by forcing ISPs to monitor the security of users' machines and block them from connecting if their browsers, security and operating system software are not up to standard.




http://www.smh.com.au/technology/security/secure-your-pc-or-lose-the-net-20100622-yuf5.html

As Tello would put it FLOCK EBAY - and FLOCK this MacGibbon fella as well!!

I read the article and had some fundamental issues.

Then I read the comments. The issues I had were covered - multiple times.


Except one.....


With the facilities available, why do the authorities not direct their energies into pursuing the sources of these internet problems rather than try to stitch up everyone who might be targeted?

For "privacy" reasons? As if this proposal of theirs doesn't push that boundary already.

Aside from the procedural difficulties, I can't see - as one example - why they couldn't insist that proxy servers maintain records of usage - that could be made available when tracking illegal activity, spam and the like.  Blacklist those that don't comply at the ISP level. They already do that for 'problem' sources of email.


This is like trying to make everybody wear a bullet-proof vest to safeguard against a repeat of Port Arthur.


Grabbing the wrong end of the stick in my opinion.

Liisa-Sx

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #58 on: June 24, 2010, 12:52:11 AM »
Glenn Beck is on the topic right NOW!


Glenn Beck...... hahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaa the guy is  an utter wackjob.

Oh yeah, well.... FLOCK YOU!

LOL Tello, no offense intended if your a Glen Beck fan but the guy is clinically insane, he has incited people to riot, his beliefs are right out of the Tin Foil Hat brigade, he talks racism and hate speech, but what can you expect from Fox news, anyone interested just google "glen beck crazy" LOL
They said there would be cake....and there WAS!

*r3830*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2010, 01:23:48 AM »
What's wrong with tinfoil hats????  ;D

*Brum6y*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #60 on: June 24, 2010, 01:53:46 AM »
What's wrong with tinfoil hats????  ;D

A high percentage of the **brains found underneath them.



** Yeah, I know there will be challenges to the use of that term in this context.

mandurahmum

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #61 on: June 24, 2010, 04:33:54 PM »
I actually dont mind Glenn Beck - some of his opinions are not mine - but some are

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2010, 11:56:45 PM »
Here is another real - government instituted threat to freedoms: Went very quite for a time..... but it's back now.... anyone heard of any biker massacres lately??


Police apply to ban Hells Angels

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/07/06/2946355.htm


Take the outlaw bikers hype out of this...... This legislation was written in a blanket form. It is simply a matter of inserting the name of the organisation / club in the title. Furthermore, it can be used on any group of people - Churches, Sporting Clubs..... etc... Whoever may be the flavour of the day. It represents a serious threat towards anyone in the community.

mandurahmum

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2010, 03:29:54 AM »
Hi Loco.

I dont know what its like anywhere else in Australia, but in the city (yes were are a city) I live in we dont have a problem with any type of gangs really.  Its too quiet for them.

However the coffin cheaters did have a clubhouse here for a couple of years, it was just up the road from my grandmothers, and the road has mostly elderly people on it.  Its also one of the main roads leading from the nightclubs to the rest of the city.  So there would always be a few young people (drunk/stoned) roaming the street - doing all sorts of crap.  Once the coffin cheaters moved into the street - it all stopped.  It was a huge turnaround.  My grandmother also told me that they were actually quite polite to her and most of her neighbours said the same thing, as they always said hello if they were out the front.

We also have a fabulous pub just out of town that a lot of coffin cheaters go to - and when they are there - there is less trouble.

I myself am not too keen on Bikie clubs - but over here at least - they aren't the problem



*Brum6y*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2010, 04:19:36 AM »
I think the bikies are smart enough, as the saying goes, to not to crap in their own nest...


I used to work in a place that had a bikie clubhouse in a small industrial unit four doors down the street. They had space in their forecourt for four or five cars and this space sat empty nearly all week. Since street parking was highly competitive, I sometimes could not find a place to park in the morning, so I approached the guys and asked. I was directed to the club president who was fine with me parking there - except on Fridays, when they had club meetings. I then asked about parking there Friday morning, since I could usually find a space in the street sometime during the day and he wasn't too worried - so long as I was out of the way before anyone got there.

This worked fine.  If a bikie dropped in during the week, my presence was OK.  Once I couldn't get to my car in time on a Friday and the guys had started rolling up for their meeting - so when I could get away, I dashed down to move my car. They were leaning on it, but just like you or I would - not doing any damage and when they saw me come to my car, a couple of the members apologised to me. Being a 1989 Ford Falcon, I wasn't really concerned and I just said as long as they didn't bend any panels or scratch the paintwork I wasn't worried.


Around the period the club moved out there were 3 notable events:
 - a visit from the police, who approached very quietly. Several vehicles, a couple of dozen 'tactical response' guys in full gear, a number of uniformed officers and several detectives ... but nobody was home.
 - a council order had been posted for 'unauthorised use' of the premises
 - someone had rammed a vehicle through the roller shutter and torched the place

These events had little impact on the rest of the people in the street... but while the bikies were there, there weren't any other issues.

*r3830*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2010, 04:56:53 PM »
I've respectfully borrowed this article from the United Motorcycle Council website.

http://www.unitedmotorcyclecouncil.com/


NSW Enters Dark Ages

Legal comment by Wayne Baffsky Barrister for UMCNSW

“NSW Police today announced they intend to seek a declaration against the Hells Angels Motorcycle Club (HAMC).

This is the first step in a process under the Crimes (Criminal Organisations Control) Act which culminates in obtaining ‘control orders’ against the individual members.

If Control Orders are obtained then members will be banned permanently from having any contact, of any kind, with each other, even if they are family members and even if they work together as many do. It can also mean that some members will have to resign their jobs or close their businesses and will not be able to support their families.

The United Motorcycle Council of NSW (UMC NSW) has been trying to make the public aware of the many dangers with this piece of legislation. These dangers range from the power of the Attorney-General to appoint judges and then rescind the appointment at any time, to the fact any group of two or more people could be targeted by the Act, to the real problem with the use of so-called criminal intelligence.

The use of criminal intelligence is the most dangerous part of this legislation and other legislation which contains similar provisions. When the Commissioner uses criminal intelligence in the Supreme Court the members of the HAMC and their legal representatives must not be in the court. As they are not in court they will not know what has been said and they will not be able to explain it or contradict it.

As this kind of evidence is often hearsay or hearsay upon hearsay it has no probative value. Most often this kind of evidence is just rumour or innuendo, most often from people with a bone to pick. It is the least probative of any kind of evidence. It allows the police to say absolutely anything they like without any fear of being contradicted and all the HAMC can do is hope the Supreme Court can see through the charade.

The UMC NSW opposes any criminal behaviour and would not support any group if that group were a front for organised crime. However, we will support the HAMC as they oppose this draconian piece of legislation. We will support the HAMC because it is the interests of all the people of NSW not just motorcycle clubs. And we will support the HAMC so ultimately NSW does not enter its own dark age.”[/i]

Keep in mind..... TODAY it's about bikers.... tomorrow it could be ANY group in the community!

mandurahmum

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2010, 05:10:51 PM »
I think that as with a lot of laws - it might sound ok on paper - but there aren't enough police to enforce the ones we have now.

golden

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2010, 09:22:15 PM »
Hi there Loco.

I can see where you are coming from but you are drawing an unrealistic, "long bow" there to think you could interchange a church or sporting club into the same legislation.  You could never accumulate the same amount of evidence against these organisations that the State/Federal Police, NCA, could produce against these "organised criminals"  People have quoted examples of how friendly they were, or the good they have done for their immediate vicinity.  Those examples are NOT a true example of these people, and if you think for one moment you could park in a rebels carpark with a hells angel sticker on your bumper you have an unreal knowledge of who these people are.  They do not abide by our laws, rules, or social conscience.  Attending childrens hospitals, long rides for charity, etc... serve nothing but their own purpose.  They are thugs, standover men and the worse of the worse of our citizens. 

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #68 on: July 07, 2010, 09:43:03 PM »
1. I was only directing my comments on the fact that these gangs are NOT going to trash the area they have their clubhouse in - otherwise they'd be hunted out in very short order.

2. Their attitude to the general public is, from what I can glean is mainly indifference - unless you want to interfere with anything they are doing. Rival gangs, however, are a completely different kettle of fish.

3. I don't have ANY club affiliations or stickers or any such thing on my car - to suggest that in this context is utterly idiotic and clearly missing the point I was making.

4. I have no misgivings about the nature of the activites many of these gangs are involved in - and have nothing postitive to say - other than they know better than to crap in their own nest. I am in no way disillusioned and know full well that it is an act, but one they need to abide by if they want ANYWHERE to call 'home'.

5. I am also well aware of the difference between 'bikers' and 'bikies'.


As for loco's 'long bow' - his point (as I understand it) is that the legislation is so broadly defined that there IS NO impediment to a church group (or whoever) being outlawed OTHER THAN the supporting evidence. The fact that such supporting evidence would, in all expectation, be near to impossible to obtain is their only saving grace.

*r3830*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #69 on: July 07, 2010, 09:45:45 PM »
Drawing a long bow golden? I don't agree.


When the Commissioner uses criminal intelligence in the Supreme Court the members of the HAMC and their legal representatives must not be in the court. As they are not in court they will not know what has been said and they will not be able to explain it or contradict it.

So.... how is this justice? Whatever happened be the right to address your accuser? Did you note that even legal reps aren't able to be present? Which raises the next point...

It allows the police to say absolutely anything they like without any fear of being contradicted

The Police become the judge, jury and executioner! There is no avenue to defend yourself. And an appeals process? How does one appeal a matter that is not disclosed to them in the first place..... on what grounds?

.....banned permanently from having any contact, of any kind, with each other, even if they are family members and even if they work together

New law = Family no longer allowed to be together. Legislated!



They do not abide by our laws, rules, or social conscience.


In a free country - none of us should be as over legislated as we are. Of course, our Politicians always abide by our laws don't they?


Thankyou Brum!









golden

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #70 on: July 07, 2010, 10:59:20 PM »
Hi Loco and Brumby.

Points 1, 2, 4, 5, of Brumbys post is agreed I thought?

Point 3 is NOT IDIOTIC.  If any of these people were threatened by your presence or you  were an unknown threat, you would not be allowed to continue what you were doing. They allowed you to park there? would it have been the same scenario if it was a japanese motorbike? as an example, or a sticker/affilliation with a rival, as an example.  They made the rules you abided by them and must have felt some concerns?  Just like waving to nanna is nothing more than "not shiiting in their own nest"


As for loco's 'long bow' - his point (as I understand it) is that the legislation is so broadly defined that there IS NO impediment to a church group (or whoever) being outlawed OTHER THAN the supporting evidence. The fact that such supporting evidence would, in all expectation, be near to impossible to obtain is their only saving grace.
Supporting evidence is my point???   where is this for the under 12 netball team?? or the Nuns?  Do you see them bashing people to death in airports because they don't LIKE each other?  Do they have shootouts at hotels?

Real life calls for about an hour, I will come back, and address other points, it wasn't meant as a hit and run.

golden

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #71 on: July 08, 2010, 12:17:11 AM »
The use of criminal intelligence is the most dangerous part of this legislation and other legislation which contains similar provisions. When the Commissioner uses criminal intelligence in the Supreme Court the members of the HAMC and their legal representatives must not be in the court. As they are not in court they will not know what has been said and they will not be able to explain it or contradict

NO IDEA at all why this point is made?  Of course the police aren't going to disclose their "intelligence", not only police but military as well.  Do they need to advertise in triplicate that on the 1st of next month the police will raid their heavily fortified clubhouse? or the SAS will attack the Taliban at a certain time?  Shows no understanding of surveillance, information gathering knowledge or techniques.

Or are you saying the judge they present this to is corrupt?.  I would have thought they are possibly the most learned people in the land, who have spent their life understanding and interpretting the law/constitution.  To have NO faith in them or the principles they are bound by is concerning. I thought they were independent and utterly without compromise.  They are the corner stone to our whole lWestminster legal system.

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #72 on: July 08, 2010, 12:17:33 AM »
Golden, you have gone off on a tangent here.

I approached these guys as a neutral.
I approached these guys as a neighbour.
I approached these guys with the knowledge that the property was theirs to use and that I was asking a favour of them - as a common courtesy.

If I had any qualms about some part of my presence being offensive, then I probably would have steered well clear.  My approach - or lack thereof - is just the same as if I knew the owner was possessive and paranoid who would just shut the door in my face.

I would expect a negative response from ANY occupant if I approached with some attribute that was basically offensive... but I didn't.  Why you bring up ANY issue that would be offensive to the rightful users of the property is why I called this comment idiotic, because it was totally irrelevant.

In fact, it is quite the opposite to the point I was making! These clubs can present an amiable side - especially when they wish to maintain an amount of agreeability with the neighbours of their clubhouse. THIS is what I was talking about - NOT rocking up and giving them a one fingered salute.

For Pete's sake, if you rocked up to ME when I was in a bad mood and did something as blatant as that I'd probably deck you for being an arrogant jerk.



As for the under 12 netball team, the legislation allows for them to be declared a criminal organisation .... and, if they do - you'll never be able to access the 'evidence' used to do that.

On this, we are talking PRINCIPLE. Nobody expects the under 12 netball team to be declared a 'criminal organisation' - but it is possible. IN PRINCIPLE, the law ALLOWS it.


Understand this - this is in no way diminishing the need for such a tool in the cases that have you fired up - I think ALL of us feel pretty much the same - but once created, such tools can be used for lesser situations and THIS is the concern about the law as it stands.

The tool is in place. Abuse of this tool is now comparatively easy - especially when the right of reply is removed, to allow 'uninhibited' testimony. Now you might say "That sounds reasonable" considering the nature of the people against which such things are being witnessed - but such unfettered capacity has no inherent balancing component...
... much like eBay's (now) one-sided feedback system.

The argument with this legislation is NOT with its ability to deal with those groups for whom it was crafted and justified - but for the potential of its abuse.

golden

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #73 on: July 08, 2010, 12:27:08 AM »
Yes Brumby, and thats why I said to Loco I understood where he was coming from.  I do NOT agree that the police can produce "supporting evidence" to an unbiased and independent judge to allow that.  They will never gather that evidence against a sporting team, church, etc if they are engaging in their normal day to day activities nor would they spend their budget and resources attempting to do that.

golden

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #74 on: July 08, 2010, 12:34:18 AM »
It allows the police to say absolutely anything they like without any fear of being contradicted

The Police become the judge, jury and executioner!

SENSATIONALISM!   The police are bound by the same rules of evidence as anyone else, in fact often more so,  they are not judge, jury and executioners, this is rubbish.  These people are working hard in difficult situations to protect all of us.  How many examples do you want of their absolute dissapointment at the constraints they are under.

golden

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #75 on: July 08, 2010, 12:44:05 AM »
.....banned permanently from having any contact, of any kind, with each other, even if they are family members and even if they work together

New law = Family no longer allowed to be together. Legislated!

So they set their alarm for early morning, ride single file off to work, to earn a dollar to support their law abiding family...pffftt  thats your difference between a bloke who enjoys riding a bike and a member of a bikie gang..

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #76 on: July 08, 2010, 12:52:35 AM »
As for the argument of maintaining security of intelligence gathering, I don't disagree - but the assumption here is that it must be taken as gospel. If a jaded investigator just 'knows' so and so is the truth and sets up an entrapment, but this part is omitted in the presentation of evidence, then there will not be anyone to challenge it.

As for the judiciary, I know they are bound by the law and that is something which can cause wrong verdicts.

...and if you say 'poppycock' to that statement - then sit down and read - you are about to get a lesson in the law........

Some years ago, one of my sons did a paper round on the weekends and, at the end of one Sunday morning's work, he was held up at knifepoint by two other kids. The one with the knife demanded he hand over the money - but he refused. The demand was repeated and he refused again. Then the knife wielding thief grabbed the money bag - but my son grabbed it right back. WHY? - you ask. Quite simple really ... my son knew the other kids - the one with the knife was in one of his classes at school and he had a pretty good idea of what he was like.

Anyway, he went back to the newsagent and told him what had happened. His mum and I were called and we shot straight down there to make sure he was OK. We then discussed the situation and reported it to the police.

Statements were made and charges laid.  In time, the case came up at court for the knife wielder - he had pleaded 'not guilty' - but his accomplice had pleaded 'guilty' and was awaiting sentence.

Now comes the interesting bit......

Just prior to the formal commencement of proceedings, the judge asked what the focus was on the defence - to which the answer was: 'the knife'. There was no argument about the theft, identity or anything else - just whether there was a knife involved. Robbery is bad enough, but armed robbery was a BIGGY - and this kid was up on a charge of "armed robbery in company".

So the case began - EVERYONE knew there had been a robbery and the kid who did it was the one in court - the prosecution, the defence, the judge - EVERYBODY.

Then my son gave evidence. He did quite well considering and related the story quite well, responding to counsel's questions, except for one brief event. He missed the part where the thief grabbed the money and he grabbed it back. And that was it - the case was lost. Without the thief having taken possession of the money, for however brief a period, there was no robbery. The prosecutor tried to jog his memory, but the rules of evidence are very very clear on that sort of thing - a BIG no-no.  It's called 'leading the witness'. Needless to say, the defense jumped on every hint of it and the judge warned the prosecutor.

In summation, the judge made it very clear why she came down with the 'not guilty' verdict - and I have to thank her for making it clear, although I had worked it put for myself. Interesting, too, was the fact that she was more than convinced that a knife was involved - apparently my son gave quite credible and consistent evidence on that score.

So there we have it - the guilty kid, proven to have used a knife, walks away scot free and his hapless accomplice, who basically just stood there, gets sentenced. The prosecution knew it, the defence knew it, the judge knew it - EVERYBODY knew it, but the kid walks free.

*Brum6y*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #77 on: July 08, 2010, 01:01:02 AM »
In just the same way, I can expect those who perform legal gymnastics to be able to present an angle to a judge in such a way that will force their hand in delivering the 'desired' outcome, by following the law.

I presume there is no argument as to how bizarre some decisions that get handed down are seen to be - and without the right of reply, there is no independent point of balance.

*Brum6y*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #78 on: July 08, 2010, 01:10:51 AM »
Now don't get me wrong .... I have the greatest respect for law enforcement and appreciate the job that they do. I also appreciate that there are many situations where their best efforts at bringing criminals to justice fall flat because of situations like that of my son's giving of evidence - or some smart-ass legal gymnast - and that frustrations will abound.

The concern is that there could be a temptation to 'fast path' some element of an investigation or evidence preparation in a case - and without there being some means to contain this temptation, abuse is possible.

The statements made by loco and I are no more than 'devils advocate' perspectives - but unless you can respond with more than 'self regulation will work because we're the good guys and you can trust us' you aren't making any points ... and those who fundamentally distrust authority will still have valid grounds for complaint.

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #79 on: July 08, 2010, 01:17:19 AM »
There is one further issue, too.....


And that is this: Now that there IS such a tool in place, will it be 'augmented' through 'refinements' of the legislation and/or further 'interpretation' of the law?

Is this just the thin edge of (a rather powerful) wedge?

Do we trust our politicians to not get 'adventurous' and take this law into other directions?


The truth is, while there is a place for this legislation, we must maintain vigilence to ensure it remains appropriate and used wisely.

If not, you may yet have cause to ask: "What happend to the under 12's netball team?"

golden

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #80 on: July 08, 2010, 02:11:43 AM »
Thanks for all those replies.  Aren't you just supporting my argument though??

You say your son went before a competent court.  You didn't cover the points of proof to have the alleged offender convicted, so he walked. Doesn't this show the court is not corrupt? and is bound by the rules placed before them?

To think the police and politicians are going to manipulate a judge to have an under 12 netball team declared a criminal organisation is an argument that is "out there" , I don't think the average law abiding Australian would even consider that as a threat to their freedom.

*Brum6y*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #81 on: July 08, 2010, 04:10:37 AM »
The court was not corrupt, indeed, but the fact of the matter is that, through a simple device the true course of justice was put off course - and that no matter how well the true course has been shown and admitted all round, the mechanics of the process demanded one result, but the facts known to all clearly defined the opposite.

Such are the concerns with this legislation. Once the mechanics are understood, the purpose (or spirit) of the law can be subservient to the letter of the law and, in the situation of my son's case, the true and fair outcome can be derailed by a similarly trivial device.

You may laugh at the 'under 12 netball team' example - but what you are totally missing is that the legislation ALLOWS for that to happen.  Let me put it this way - the under 12 netball team HAS NO MORE PROTECTION from this legislation than 50 gun-toting Hells Angels on a rampage. The ONLY difference is, that getting the evidence to deal with the Hells Angels will (allegedly) be easier.

This is the point being made - about the legislation itself. The legislation allows for it to happen to ANYONE.


But let's look at where it could go...

Well, we start off with the Hells Angels, since they are in the news on this very matter. Now it must be said that there has, at this time, been no judgement against them under this legislation, but for the sake of argument, let us say that they are the first group to be declared a 'criminal organisation'. Now, presuming their departure from the scene does not leave a power gap, resulting in an all-out war of the remaining gangs, with extensive collateral damage - what next? If the presumption is that the Hells Angels were the baddest of the bad - then the degree of 'badness' in our society will fall.  This means we will be more sensitive to the levels of 'bad' left behind and our tolerance will also drift down as well. If I were to equate this with noise pollution - once we stopped the freight trains, we would notice the semi-trailers - and then be complaining about them.

So, in out new 'social order' we encounter our next tier - and deal with them.

This is now purely hypothetical...:
Now we come across a true criminal family... Mum spends her days shoplifting and dad does nighttime burglary. Uncle has his dope growing out the back and takes care of a little 'protection' business. Grandpa takes care of the fencing of goods and looks after the books while grandma does a little bit of forgery and the regular con-artist outings where she is teaching her twin grand-daughters. Meanwhile the teenage sons are out stealing cars and maybe holding up the odd servo for some ready cash so they can go out on the town. It might be that they have not fallen before the strong arm of the law, because of a combination of factors - including minimising risks, keeping a low profile, having a keen awareness of their environment and a 'sixth sense' about things, a little bit of luck and a damn good lawyer on side, but their contribution to the crime scene well known by the local police.

Along comes this legislation, and the police now have a means to 'deal' with this family in a way they never had before. There is no doubt in anyone's mind (in officialdom) that they would be rendered almost ineffective by breaking them up, since there was a high degree of intra-family support for each others' 'activities'.  So they put together a case, present it and the judge agrees - so another 'criminal organisation' is declared and the family is broken up and, according to the legislation, they have no means to challenge or even be informed of the 'evidence' that has caused the decimation.


While the detail of these examples may be erroneous, the possible trend is the point I want to illustrate. The application of the legislation can become more comfortable on a lessening degree of 'badness' - and while it may not have reached the under 12 netball team, it's a lot closer than it was first passed into law.  On the 'black and white' scale, the pointer has moved down into a 'less black' area - so things are starting to become grey.  Therein lies a problem - where do the 'grey areas' change from 'black' to 'white'?

In the legislation, there is no provision for defining this.  It is purely a subjective assessment that can, and will, drift in line with the current societal norms.


However, you may shout from the rooftops that it will never get that bad - and I might be inclined to agree with you - but will I hazard a guess that our reasoning will differ.

(While I may not be accurate in assigning this point of view to you, Golden, I present it from the impression I have gleaned from what you have said. If I am patently wrong, I apologise, but I present the point as one approach...)
You may passionately declare "They're the good guys - they wouldn't do anything nasty. They will just be looking out for us and whatever they target will be deserving of that attention." My response to that would be this: If this is the approach the populace takes - blind faith - then there will be every reason for those with the power, to exercise it as they see fit. Can you imagine what politicians would do if they knew they could get away with anything? It's bad enough as it is now.

My reasoning why things will never get that bad is that there will be people watching - such as it demonstrated here in this thread - and that the powers that be will know this. They will need to be very sure of their actions because if they try and 'push the envelope' beyond what the population considers reasonable, there will be increased pressure to curb or limit these powers which could make it harder to deal with real problems in the future. The pressure will be political - since its the politicians who drive the legislative processes and the electors who drive the politicians.


As I said before, I have every respect for law enforcement, but vigilance will serve society whereas blind faith can imprison it.

golden

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #82 on: July 08, 2010, 05:15:58 AM »
We could always put it to a survey! and use the random sample accuracy calculator  :lol:


Whats tommorrow nights subject?

*r3830*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #83 on: July 08, 2010, 05:18:54 PM »
The Police become the judge, jury and executioner!

SENSATIONALISM!   Do you really think so? Try this word.... REALITY!


The police are bound by the same rules of evidence as anyone else, in fact often more so

Agreed - but on the basis of a "fair trial", this evidence is open to cross-examination. But...... under this new law, there is no opportunity for cross-examination by the defence. You state that judges work on facts and evidence presented.... without an opportunity to 'test' the evidence.... what is the judge left with? The one sided "facts and evidence" of the Police? Now that most certainly is a fair outcome for all involved! I, too used to believe that all Police Officers were fine upstanding pillars of the community.

Brum.... The devils' advocate role sees things from a different perspective. I'm not a biker - but I don't see the risk of this legislation being exclusive to unlawful groups. Were someone to decide that pedophilia placed children at risk..... and that the major offenders were priests in churches, all that would be needed was secret police intel to bring about the closure of a church, and the vilification of all its members. By the same rules, the church would have no defence - or valid appeals process.

This thing is wide open to abuse..... for any number of purposes.

*r3830*

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*smee*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #85 on: July 08, 2010, 05:43:09 PM »
ok I think Ive got it ! ..... who is going to tell the Hells Angels to change their name to the Under 12 Girls Netball team ?  and to get rid of their leathers and wear pleated skirts

*r3830*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #86 on: July 08, 2010, 06:01:09 PM »
I was doing some further reading. Just came across proposed changes to a number of acts... including Dangerous Weapons and Firearms. Interestingly, the major changes appear to be in denying access to the accused person.... by inclusion of the phrase "criminal intelligence". So much for putting the cards on the table. Eg - a complaint made by someone regarding the ownership of a firearm...... you're licence may be revoked or cancelled - and no explanation is required to be given.


http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/xref/inforce/?xref=Type%3Dact%20AND%20Year%3D2010%20AND%20no%3D40&nohits=y

mandurahmum

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2010, 06:29:31 PM »
I have no problem with that.  I dont believe any citizen needs a firearm.  The only people I want to have guns are the Police and the Armed forces, and possibly farmers.

People who belong to shooter clubs etc should not be allowed to take a weapon home - they should be locked away at the club. 

I have strong feelings on this subject, my stepfather was a police officer for over 20 years - he was shot at twice.

My Brother worked at a Commonwealth Bank that was held up and shots were fired.

Brendon Abbott held up one of the banks in Mandurah - 500 metres from where my grandmother lived.  he was armed and prepared to use it.





*r3830*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #88 on: July 08, 2010, 07:45:32 PM »
I have no problem with that.

Mandurah..... It doesn't matter what laws are introduced, they only apply to law abiding people. The crooks remain exempt in any case.

I do have a problem with the erosion of our freedoms. Although, life would probably be soooooo much easier if we all had someone to act on our behalf. Think of it - no need to think any more for yourself..... whoops, sorry - we've just withdrawn thinking, so there is nothing to think about.

Cars kill a lot of people each year. Should they be banned? How about we cancel all drivers licences - because, potentially, every driver who drinks may drive under the influence. That's called being proactive..... makes sense doesn't it.

There is precedent for such a change..... it occurred and affected all firearm owners across this country due to the illegal actions of one misguided, mentally ill person in Tasmania. But - it was a popular move!

Thank goodness for all these things at times of looming elections! I promise I won't laugh when our politicians, seeking re-election, stand and assure me that I am now safer because of their enlightened reforms.

mandurahmum

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #89 on: July 08, 2010, 08:58:58 PM »
Hi Loco - i disagree with you comparing cars to guns.  Yes cars kill a lot of people - but that is not what they are designed for.

Guns on the other hand are designed to kill or maim.  People may argue that a gun may be for protection - but unless you are prepared to pull the trigger - they offer no protection at all.

I applaud anything the government can do to stop people from having guns and ammunition.


*Ubbie Max*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #90 on: July 09, 2010, 11:22:50 AM »
Struth Mum, what are you saying? Guns never killed anyone or anything, it's the lunatic holding the firearm who does the killing.

The gun buy back was off track. All the honest responsible shooters handed in their firearms but, the crooks didn't.

Talking about censoreship, all reference to vegetables should be censored.


golden

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #92 on: July 09, 2010, 03:18:13 PM »
I'm walking away from this thread, (not other threads) , because you are arguing for argument sake.  I think you see me as a weak target.  As I understood it posters on this forum are allowed to express a view, even an opposing view.  We don't have to agree.  I don't want your leftist, civil libertarian, political propaganda pushed down my throat. To resort to calling people idiotic, an arrogant jerk, or sit down and I'll give you a lesson in law, is offensive.  Especially from a moderator.  Your arguments are ridiculous.  You are trying to tell us all that the sunday school is going to end up in Guantanamo Bay, it is ludicrous, and if you can't see that is "drawing the long bow" so be it.   You have conceded you have no trust in the police, legislators, judiciary or the constitution, I stand by my view that is concerning.  I doubt I'll enter your political threads again, but I may just agree with you next time, because I'm prepared to think for myself, express an opinion, learn and even apologise when wrong.

golden

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #93 on: July 09, 2010, 03:58:56 PM »
One last point, I always thought the "green stars" above someones avatar meant they were a moderator.  I was wrong and am mistaken.  For that I apologise. 

*Ubbie Max*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #94 on: July 09, 2010, 05:17:54 PM »
Golden. The green stars only indicate that the person is an original member. Those members with green stars have no more authority than a new member with one gold star.

On another note as a person who spent over thirty years in Law Enforcement I could make some very salient comments in relation to firearms on this thread but, I choose not to.

I respect all the differing opinions & beliefs expressed here, I don't necessarily agree with all of them but, I do respect them.


golden

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #95 on: July 09, 2010, 05:46:04 PM »
Golden. The green stars only indicate that the person is an original member. Those members with green stars have no more authority than a new member with one gold star.

On another note as a person who spent over thirty years in Law Enforcement I could make some very salient comments in relation to firearms on this thread but, I choose not to.

I respect all the differing opinions & beliefs expressed here, I don't necessarily agree with all of them but, I do respect them.



Those comments weren't directed at you Ubbie or Jane,

I'm just not going to sit here and read posts about how their politicians are going to pass unjust legislation so the police can manufacture substantial evidence aginst the u12 netbll team and go before a corrupt judge who will declare them a criminal organisation or follow the rules before him is ridiculous.  It is "out there" thats my opinion.  My opinion wasn't respected so I bit back..  

mandurahmum

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #96 on: July 09, 2010, 06:00:54 PM »
Struth Mum, what are you saying? Guns never killed anyone or anything, it's the lunatic holding the firearm who does the killing.

The gun buy back was off track. All the honest responsible shooters handed in their firearms but, the crooks didn't.

Talking about censoreship, all reference to vegetables should be censored.

Or the child that gets hold of it.

But you are kinda correct (imo) its not gun that kills - its the bullets (what a smart arse I am)

I just dont like guns.

*Ubbie Max*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #97 on: July 09, 2010, 06:02:09 PM »
Never a problem Golden, I didn't think so but, I thought I should let you know about the green stars etc.

*Ubbie Max*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #98 on: July 09, 2010, 06:05:07 PM »
Yeah, fair enough Mum. If a child gets hold of a firearm the owner should be severely punished by the law for allowing it to happen.

In NSW firearm security (in the home) is very strict.

mandurahmum

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #99 on: July 09, 2010, 06:13:38 PM »
Ubbie - its the same here - but not all owners are vigilant unfortunately.  And gun licences take into account the persons mental health when issuing the licence but there are no follow up check ups.  Like that mother in Rockhampton that shot her child - she had never had a mental health issue (according to our shonky media), but she was clearly unstable at the time she shot her child.

I remember watching Bowling for Columbine - and one of the opening shots was in a bank that offered a free gun when you opened up a bank account.  They even had a firing range in the back.  That scares the crap out of me.

I just dont like guns and never will