Author Topic: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....  (Read 39733 times)

*r3830*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #100 on: July 09, 2010, 07:11:20 PM »
You are trying to tell us all that the sunday school is going to end up in Guantanamo Bay, it is ludicrous, and if you can't see that is "drawing the long bow" so be it.   You have conceded you have no trust in the police, legislators, judiciary or the constitution, I stand by my view that is concerning.  I doubt I'll enter your political threads again, but I may just agree with you next time, because I'm prepared to think for myself, express an opinion, learn and even apologise when wrong.

You are trying to tell us all that the sunday school is going to end up in Guantanamo Bay

And.... that could well be right..... I believe Guantanamo Bay is coming to Australia in the near future.

You have conceded you have no trust in the police, legislators, judiciary or the constitution

Have I missed something? Conceded no trust in the Police? Now, where was it mentioned that I have no trust in ALL Police? I believe I stated that once I believed ALL police to be pillars of the community. I now know that to be different..... as I work between the Police and the judiciary.... so my perspective is quite probably very different to yours. Where you mention legislators..... aren't these people politicians? Politicians are placed by votes aren't they? And the constitution..... if you are unable to see the threats that presently exist to a number of articles of our constitution...... internet filtering (censorship) being quite a topical example at the moment... "for we are young and free   legislated. Perhaps for the benefit of clarification.... trust is tempered by caution.

However - ANYONE is free to air their thoughts here, and while the discussions may become quite active, it's not about stifling anyone else's views, opinions or thoughts. If ANYONE wishes to participate they are welcome. But just a suggestion..... this is a chat forum. While we may express differing views - there is no value in taking these things personally...... nor is there any intent to do so.

mandurahmum

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #101 on: July 10, 2010, 12:35:24 AM »
No way would we ever have a Guantanamo Bay here - we dont like the fact that the US does, and we are not happy that it is still operating.  Gitmo is a big ugly boil on the backside of the US of A.  We treat our Prisoners so much more humane than that - We dont do waterboarding or other methods of torture.  And if we did I would not be a Proud Australian - I would be a disgusted Australian - as would many others here I think.

I like our country the way it is, and if the government want to introduce laws to help keep this country the wonderful place it is to live in - then I say go ahead - Please do.  Because I know that no only will they have to convince the oppostition that its a good idea - they will have to convince us.  Because most of us know how to contact their local Mp by email, and tell them what we think. 

I dont think most law abiding citizens have anything to worry about.  WE dont care if there is a filter that stops Child Porn being accessed - we want it.  I dont care if I cant access websites that encourage Jihad or how to build a weapon.  I dont care if I cant access a meth amphedimine recipe.  In fact if the government can do this - then I say well done.

The government is also not doing this overnight - they have left plenty of time for public consultation - so its not like they were trying to hide behind the goal posts

When they get it wrong - its up to us to tell them - so they can review and change the situation.  They do it all the time.












*Brum6y*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #102 on: July 10, 2010, 01:58:26 AM »
Golden, I do appreciate what you are saying about how ludicrous it would be having the under 12 netball team declared a 'criminal organisation'.

When presented as an open statement, the normal expectation is of a group of innocent pre-teen girls whose worst traits would be pulling hair or tripping opponents.

This is simply making black and white comparisons based on the stereotypical view of a familiar sports group.

But what if the circumstances were not so clear... nor so innocent?

Step back to my 'criminal family' scenario - and let us examine the twin granddaughters, who just happen to be members of the under 12 netball team.....

With such a delightfully innocent group of girls getting together on a regular basis, the 'criminal family' has arranged for 2 other girls (from families of drug customers) to be members of the same team. Very simply - the granddaughters turn up at training or matches with their 'team coordinated' sports bags carrying a couple of kilos of uncle's crop inside and the 'customers' players simply pick up the "wrong" bag to take delivery.

Would this under 12's netball team be a candidate for being declared a 'criminal organisation'?  Under the legislation as it stands, the answer cannot be 'No'.

Now... let us further suppose that all this is 'common knowledge' to the local police and a sting operation is set up to nab them - but the "criminal family's" sixth sense replaces the normal merchandise with a kilo of a different kind of hemp, that is only good for weaving an 'earth friendly' carry bag. The sting operation goes off flawlessly ... all the photos, recordings, observations, notes, research falls into place, but the key piece of evidence - the drug haul - is anything but. Weeks of work gone down the tubes ... all for want of a bit of 'weed' in the right place.  The temptation to cut a corner here would be very real - and all you would need is for one person who knew the system well enough to know how cut that corner and jaded enough to be motivated in doing it and the course of 'justice' is directed down a path it has no right to travel.

While pretty well all people working in law enforcement will experience these frustrations and temptations from time to time, I do believe the vast majority will not succumb - but you only need one person in the right place at the right time to make a diabolical difference.

...and under this legislation there will be no knowledge of the details of the case, no defence, no cross-examination nor, indeed, any opportunity to view, let alone challenge, the evidence.

Does the under 12's netball team deserve to be 'declared' under these circumstances?

Now let's take a step further back and presume the 'criminal family' has been extremely clever and have NEVER used the under 12s netball team for any actual drug distribution, but have played up this situation as a misdirection - a focus for police attention in an area right away from the real movement of drugs.

Let's say the sting goes ahead, just as before, and again nets a kilo of bag weaving hemp that gets 'substituted'.

Under this legislation, the under 12's netball team has exactly the same story from the prosecution side - with absolutely no input from the defence side.  As a result, if the case presented in any of these scenarios is adequate for the declaration of the under 12's netball team, then it will be adequate for ALL of them - since there will be no means to test the evidence.


As you can see from the scenarios I have presented, the amount of 'deliberate manufacturing of evidence' does not have to be as sensational as you make out, Golden, nor does it need a great conspiracy to be carried out - and certainly the judiciary does not need to be corrupt in any way, shape or form to hand down the decision sought ... because the whole purpose of presenting the 'evidence' in a particular way is to channel a judges thinking to the desired verdict.  By knowing what the law dictates a judge must do in this situation and that situation, the prosecution will try to present the details of a case in such a way as to pave a path  - and there will be no defence to balance those efforts.


Now I don't know whether the exact criminal scenario I have presented will be one to which the legislation under discussion would be applied in real life, but presuming it were, the two variations I described would, in a normal court of law, be dismissed.

I will also declare that I have no direct knowledge of any misbehaviour on the part of any law enforcement officer, but I can accept that there are issues from time to time on this subject.


However, if you cannot see that these situations are possible then it follows that your view is one that holds every single person working in any and all law enforcement services, totally above reproach.

I must, with respect, say that this is an extremely naive view.

*Brum6y*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #103 on: July 10, 2010, 02:27:34 AM »
No way would we ever have a Guantanamo Bay here

If we did - you would quite likely never know.  The government isn't exactly going to publish a 'guest' list and the month's movie schedule for everyday Aussies to peruse.

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I dont think most law abiding citizens have anything to worry about.  WE dont care if there is a filter that stops Child Porn being accessed - we want it.  I dont care if I cant access websites that encourage Jihad or how to build a weapon.  I dont care if I cant access a meth amphedimine recipe.

The criminals will have even less to worry about. They will get around it before the government signs off on the ad telling us that it's all up and running.

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In fact if the government can do this - then I say well done.


That's the trouble - they can't.  Those that want to get around it, will.  Just like if somebody wants to steal your car, they will.  Anti-theft devices merely make your car less attractive - not unstealable.

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The government is also not doing this overnight - they have left plenty of time for public consultation - so its not like they were trying to hide behind the goal posts


Maybe, maybe not.  One of the arts of being a politician is misdirection.  For example, they will focus your attention on two goal posts with a cross-bar making you think the game is rugby ... until they start playing with a round ball.  You then take a wider look and notice the two extra posts either side and suddenly realise its a game of International Rules - but, bad luck, you've bought your tickets - so just enjoy the game.

That's the other thing, too. Once a 'facility' has been implemented, all the hard work has been done ... and this immediately eliminates a counter argument of 'significant cost' for any further 'enhancements'.  Slightly more invasive steps can be made - each one justifiable for its 'minimal' intrusion - until you have progressed so far from the original, that the difference is incomprehensible, let alone justifiable.

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When they get it wrong - its up to us to tell them - so they can review and change the situation.  They do it all the time.


"When they get it wrong - its up to us to tell them" - that is where I see Loco coming from. Not that the idea behind the legislation is wrong - far from it - but that the nature of the legislation as it is written leaves the gates wide open for abuse.

mandurahmum

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #104 on: July 10, 2010, 03:10:15 AM »
No way would we ever have a Guantanamo Bay here

If we did - you would quite likely never know.  The government isn't exactly going to publish a 'guest' list and the month's movie schedule for everyday Aussies to peruse.

I think we would know about it - because people will talk.  A facility like this will need staff, they will need to have food brought in for them, they will need doctors etc.  And you can suggest that the Army/Airforce will do all this - but someone will notice.  I am sure that they also have to allow inspectors by Amnesty International or similar. 

Quote
I dont think most law abiding citizens have anything to worry about.  WE dont care if there is a filter that stops Child Porn being accessed - we want it.  I dont care if I cant access websites that encourage Jihad or how to build a weapon.  I dont care if I cant access a meth amphedimine recipe.

The criminals will have even less to worry about. They will get around it before the government signs off on the ad telling us that it's all up and running.

Quote


Of course they will - but for how long - eventually some will get caught, and those websites flagged.

In fact if the government can do this - then I say well done.


That's the trouble - they can't.  Those that want to get around it, will.  Just like if somebody wants to steal your car, they will.  Anti-theft devices merely make your car less attractive - not unstealable.

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But harder to steal than those with no anti theft devices

The government is also not doing this overnight - they have left plenty of time for public consultation - so its not like they were trying to hide behind the goal posts


Maybe, maybe not.  One of the arts of being a politician is misdirection.  For example, they will focus your attention on two goal posts with a cross-bar making you think the game is rugby ... until they start playing with a round ball.  You then take a wider look and notice the two extra posts either side and suddenly realise its a game of International Rules - but, bad luck, you've bought your tickets - so just enjoy the game.

That's the other thing, too. Once a 'facility' has been implemented, all the hard work has been done ... and this immediately eliminates a counter argument of 'significant cost' for any further 'enhancements'.  Slightly more invasive steps can be made - each one justifiable for its 'minimal' intrusion - until you have progressed so far from the original, that the difference is incomprehensible, let alone justifiable.

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When they get it wrong - its up to us to tell them - so they can review and change the situation.  They do it all the time.


"When they get it wrong - its up to us to tell them" - that is where I see Loco coming from. Not that the idea behind the legislation is wrong - far from it - but that the nature of the legislation as it is written leaves the gates wide open for abuse.


And like all laws - it will get tweaked all the time.

I just think that instead of going worst case scenario - lets wait and see.   I am sure that some of the contributors to this law have a good idea on how to make this work.  After all its not the Politician that does the hard work in setting things up - its the smart people that work for them.

*Brum6y*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #105 on: July 10, 2010, 03:34:00 AM »
Fair enough MM - but lets not wait become complacent either.

The 'clever' people are driven by the politicians, who will want to see their aspirations embodied in law - and since the politicians are driven by our votes, it is up to each of us to take an interest in things as they unfold - not to wait until everything is done and dusted and we turn around to find some obscene juggernaut ripping through society.

The problems are several - but, in my opinion, those of greatest concern come from areas where ignorance exists and/or hidden agendas abound.

Close behind are those areas where new areas of law are defined with no historical precedent (in law) upon which to guide the construction of legislation.  It is no secret that lawyers can, and often do, find twists and turns in law that allow them to win a case that defies cursory logic - so a brand new piece of legislation is a prime opportunity to analyse a labyrinth of possibilities and develop a variety of strategies to achieve the objectives of the protagonist ... and sometimes these can deliver outcomes which are contrary to the spirit of the law that gave rise to it.

It is as true now as it was when first uttered: "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.--  Thomas Jefferson

I also liked another quote of his that I came across:
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

That one also works on this side of the Pacific.

golden

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #106 on: July 10, 2010, 03:48:00 AM »
Good morning Loco, Brumby and MM.

I'm heading off for a few days mulesing, and am about to walk out the door.  A couple of quick thoughts....

You are fantastic people to chat with and you're the reason I like the forum.  Your posts make me think.  They make me form an opinion or say to myself, what are my beliefs on whatever the subject is. It stimulates otherwise inactive grey matter.

Brumby.  I hadn't read your other post about having some dramas.  Poor timing on my behalf.  Don't let whatever comes out of my clap trap distract you from your tasks at hand.  I've said it before, you are a highly intelligent person and a wealth of information on many and varied subjects.  That shines through for everyone else on the forum to see.

Anyway,  I'll close the door on the way out...   please have a great weekend.






OOOPPPSSS Nearly forgot to pack my pink OZRT S/L/L T-shirt. ;D

HellWest'nCrooked

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #107 on: July 10, 2010, 09:47:10 AM »

  Hope the job went well Goldy....
  Good morning everyone else..just wanted to say "me too, goldy" on the "stimulates otherwise inactive grey matter"....I don't get time to watch what is going on the world much but late at night I can duck in here and see what the intelligent people are up to!
  I love it.

 Westie   :ivanhoe:
Ain't no rhyme or reason
No complicated meaning

*Brum6y*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #108 on: July 10, 2010, 02:45:22 PM »
I think I have a pink one somewhere...

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*r3830*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #109 on: July 10, 2010, 04:56:07 PM »
Brum..... I LOVE THAT TSHIRT! If a message could be added to the back...... The Ten cents payable for any unkind words, snickers, or naughty words will go towards the Breast Cancer Foundation..... I, for one will proudly wear it to the Pub!

Mandura,

I went to WA (including Mandurah) in 1971 and again in 1973. It was such a wonderful place that mum and I nearly moved over there. Work was difficult to find - and the wages at that time didn't compare to Sydney. The people were friendly, and Perth itself represented to me, the biggest country town type environment I had seen. What was very evident was the WA opinion of Sydney. The people were concerned about the influence from the other side of the continent. There was talk at the time of secession and the introduction passports for entry. There was a strong belief - what happens in Sydney, will, over time, make it's way here. I haven't been to WA since that time, but I understand that there are similar problems there that afflict every state in the country. The same viewpoint describes what happens here.... due to the influences of the US. Kids wearing caps and carrying Boom boxes, and a crime rate that continues to grow.

We had a poll a while ago, on "Global Warming". The results serve to demonstrate a thought: If I may, I'll use this as an example here:

No debate needed, the science is settled. Global warming is upon us and we'd better do something quick to reduce our carbon footprint.     - 5 (17.2%)
Yes, I tend to believe what the majority of scientists and world governments are saying, that we need to take action - although in the light of recent revelations, it does need more research.                                                                                                                                    - 2 (6.9%)
I'm really not sure - If it is true, then we need to do something quickly, but if it is based on flawed science, then heads need to roll.    - 5 (17.2%)
No, I don't believe in this global warming stuff, it's being all blown out of proportion.                                                                    - 6 (20.7%)
No, global warming is all a huge con, the science is flawed and corrupt, there's something very sinister behind it all.                     - 11 (37.9%)
   
Total Voters: 28


At point 1. (17.2%) People who believe that they are being accurately informed by their government on the need of action. Without question.

At point 2. (6.9%) People who would probably have supported point 1.... had it not have been for the contradictory evidence that came from the skeptics.

At point 3. (17.2%) People who came to question the differing views of both sides of the argument. "If it is true" becomes an important concern here - but then, there will be ramifications if the people discover that they have been misled by others in positions of trust.

At point 4. (20.7%) This point may have been impacted by the predicted costs associated with the ETS - or it may have been that people had found access to greater level of information representing both sides.... particularly that not presented by the media.

At point 5. (37.9%) I was very surprised by this result. Personally, I thought this would be a minority group. There are issues of distrust in this result. That may be due to the evidence presented, the talk of an NWO, The World Bank, or, closer to home - a concern of being railroaded by our own government into something that our country and its people could little afford - based on flimsy, questionable evidence - and the need to lie by one side in order to sell its position. And the lies by the way, came from the government supported side of the fence!

Please Note: The above is only my interpretation of the data. Their is no criticism intended towards anyone as to their views - or how they cast their vote. We all think differently - and that is truly, a good thing!


This matter has been shelved until after the election. It is present government policy, that WILL be introduced if the present government is returned.
The same applies to Internet Filtering.

Insofar as telling our government that we don't like something..... the listening only appears to occur immediately prior to the pending election. All governments feel rather "bulletproof" in their first terms..... so telling them is one thing - them listening is another.

And like all laws - it will get tweaked all the time.

That's true.... but in which direction will the tweaks take it?

I just think that instead of going worst case scenario - lets wait and see.   I am sure that some of the contributors to this law have a good idea on how to make this work.  After all its not the Politician that does the hard work in setting things up - its the smart people that work for them.


I just think that instead of going worst case scenario

I'm not putting views of worst case scenario. The purpose was to warn of a potentially serious threat to people's freedoms.

lets wait and see -

The view of Switzerland, a neutral country, prior to German Occupation in WWII

Liberal: We will NEVER have a GST!       There was!                                    Labor: We will WIND BACK the GST!      They didn't!

Correct me if I'm wrong.... but wasn't an undertaking made by our government to accept a number of prisoners from Guatmo? That is what I meant by Guantanamo Bay coming here in the near future.

....its not the Politician that does the hard work in setting things up - its the smart people that work for them.

As guided by the vested interests of lobby groups - and friends of government.

And one other thing, while I think of it..... One alternative to freedom is imprisonment! Loco ;D

Liisa-Sx

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #110 on: July 10, 2010, 05:05:51 PM »
MUCH has been written about the Government's proposed "'clean feed" internet censorship regime. But it isn't until you delve into the policy's unintended consequences that some of its biggest problems come into view.

Shamefully for the Government, these consequences are entirely predictable for those with a solid grasp of how the technology works.

A growing mountain of criticism rightly targets the policy's cost, its likely performance impact, the impossibility of its meeting required reliability standards, its expense, and the fact that its compulsory nature violates a Labor Party election promise.

But further gems of controversy have attracted little attention, and deserve to be brought to light. None are particularly complicated; all are damning.

If you don't like the new censorship regime and want to get around it, you can. If internet users avail themselves of free access to what those in the networking game call an open VPN (virtual private network), their traffic would become opaque to the Government and immune from the effects of the censorship system. Accessing a VPN is as simple as installing a free browser plugin, and requires no technical knowledge.


Related Coverage

    * Filtering is not censorship, says Conroy NEWS.com.au, 13 Apr 2010
    * Banned web list to stay secret Perth Now, 29 Mar 2010
    * US slams internet filter plan Perth Now, 29 Mar 2010
    * Censorship's dangerous path Courier Mail, 19 Dec 2009
    * Filter to block offensive websites Herald Sun, 16 Dec 2009



So, where would that leave us?

To begin with, it would leave us in the same situation we were in before - with uncensored, unfiltered internet access - only several hundred million dollars poorer.  (roughly 45 million as a STARTUP) All we would have to show for the money spent on the censorship system would be the inevitable slowdown it would cause.

However, the effects of widespread VPN use run deeper than this.

Subscribers who intended to violate copyright would flock to VPN technology as the new censorship regime drew more attention to VPNs' ability to provide anonymity. In addition to "relocating" internet users - mainly to a new U.S. jurisdiction - VPNs also encrypt network traffic.

This has some profound effects on criminality and law enforcement. A natural side effect of the implementation of mandatory Government censorship would be to encourage criminals to use VPNs, because the kinds of network activity these people intend to carry out would be inhibited by the censorship system, leaving them with little alternative.

Once they were encrypting their traffic, the telecommunications interception warrants used by law enforcement would be useless. A police officer cannot do anything productive with an encrypted data stream - it holds no value as evidence. It is virtually inevitable some criminals would go free for lack of evidence against them once the government firewall was in place.

It would be bad enough if the Government's policy stopped at merely protecting criminals, but the Minister for Broadband, Communications and Digital Economy, Senator Stephen Conroy's proposed "clean feed" would go a step further by actually helping them find illegal material.

The minister's aim is to have every internet service provider in Australia carry out mandatory censorship using a blacklist of prohibited content supplied by the Australian Communications and Media Authority.

Blacklist a 'Yellow Pages of Evil'

The blacklist would need to be distributed to several hundred ISPs, and would be accessible to several thousand technical staff. The information security implications of this are obvious. Taking such a sensitive, secret resource and distributing it to thousands of people guarantees that the blacklist would eventually leak.

When it leaked, it would be published on the internet. If the list is even half as accurate as the minister claims it will be, the effect of that publication will be to make what has beeen dubbed "The Australian Federal Government's Yellow Pages of Evil" available to every child-exploiting abuser on the planet, directing criminals in all corners of the world to a smorgasbord of illegal content.

The Labor Government would need to explain why it thought that unknowable quantities of "collateral damage" all over the world was an acceptable price to pay for Australian internet censorship.

Of course, that somewhat alarming outcome is predicated on the trustworthiness of Senator Conroy's claim that only the most outrageously illegal material would be blocked. A diligent enquirer might wonder whether that is true.

In a Senate Estimates Committee hearing on 20 October, 2008, Senator Conroy confirmed that ACMA's existing prohibited online content list would form the basis of the mandatory "illegal material" censorship scheme. The problem is the ACMA-prohibited online content list doesn't actually restrict itself to illegal material. and don't think they wont hesitate to block OTHER sites they feel we as adults should not be viewing, illegal or NOT.

In addition to the illegal material Senator Conroy would like to ban for adults, the list also contains material the Office of Film and Literature Classification has refused to classify, but which may still be legal to possess (if not to sell, hire, exhibit, or import) in Australia, as well as material rated X18+, also R18+ material not protected by an adult verification service, and some MA15+ material. Material in these categories is mostly legal in Australia.

The ACMA-prohibited online content list also contains a class of material that hasn't been examined by the OFLC, but which, in the opinion of ACMA bureaucrats, "would be" classified into one of the categories of prohibited content.

But because the blacklist is secret, unaudited, and specifically exempted by legislation from the Freedom of Information application process, the OFLC would never get a chance to check the accuracy of these classifications - unless they downloaded the list once it was leaked. That brings us to the most pernicious of unintended consequences: nobody would know (at first) what had been banned.

Our society accepts that it is up to the courts to determine what is illegal. We do not then expect faceless public servants to be the real arbiters of an internet content blacklist. Yet Senator Conroy, who has established a remarkable track record of being wrong in this area, expects Australians simply to take his word for it when he says that "illegal material is illegal material".

IT is clear that a great many Australians disagree, despite Senator Conroy's hysterical accusations that to do so is to endorse child pornography. In a nation that has enjoyed uncensored access to online services (including those that predate the internet) for over three decades without ill effect, imposing a national censorship regime such as the one proposed by Senator Conroy is a radical act requiring radical justification.

We are over a year into this debate, and still none of these concerns has been addressed. It time for the Labor Government to abandon this policy. To the Government I ask: "Please, won't somebody think of the adults?"

As a side note: The "clean feed" is in fact opposed by interpol for the exact reason that it makes child pornographers harder to catch.

Just to put this in context, Google and Microsoft search engine Bing logged the trillionth-that is a one followed by 12 zeros-web page address in 2008. One trillion unique addresses, with several billion added every day. Google conservatively estimates that they have logged about 0.004 per cent of the five million terabytes of data on the net. This thing is already vast and I think the proposition that you could take a list, even with a classification scheme as vague as ours-this ‘refused classification' bracket-and somehow plug everything that would be deemed to be refused classification is quite ABSURD.
They said there would be cake....and there WAS!

*r3830*

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #111 on: July 10, 2010, 05:22:19 PM »
Really good to see you Liisa, and thankyou for clarifying this 'thing'.

Our society accepts that it is up to the courts to determine what is illegal. We do not then expect faceless public servants to be the real arbiters of an internet content blacklist. Yet Senator Conroy, who has established a remarkable track record of being wrong in this area, expects Australians simply to take his word for it when he says that "illegal material is illegal material".

Now aren't there some parallels there - that being government expectations on people to simply take their word on matters.... all matters!

mandurahmum

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #112 on: July 10, 2010, 06:21:55 PM »
Loco - boy has Mandurah changed since you were here lol.  It is still beautiful, and the people here are still very friendly.  (well we do tend to call tourists, terrorists but in a semi joking way).

I do think some Waussies are a little weary of the eastern states - only because for years we were the "money maker" for the country - yet we missed out on our share of the wealth.  I know I certainly am very upset with the federal government - for allowing uranium to be mined here - you see we dont want that.  And although it cant be shipped out of any of our ports at the moment - we expect that to change - without our input.

And now the federal government has given the greenlight to an oil rig platform at Margaret River - now I dont know anyone that even knew it was being considered.  And I for one - am spitting chips. 

It sometimes feels like our opinions dont matter to the federal government - as long as our state keeps the rest of the country afloat.

I have a thread on the fountain about the margaret river platform - its a link to a letter to julia - I hope everyone has a look and sends her a letter.  For those that dont know Margaret River - its a lovely spot - beautiful beaches - great surf - great wine and delish chocolate.

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #113 on: July 10, 2010, 09:01:28 PM »
Mandura,

Are you telling me that the town is no longer on tankwater.... and they've dropped the bounty payable on swallows? Goodness! Things have changed!

It sometimes feels like our opinions dont matter to the federal government - as long as our state keeps the rest of the country afloat.
 
Yes - I can completely understand that thought! Were it not for the Iron Ore out of WA - The global crisis would have clobbered us much harder.... right across the country. Were the people over there happy with the Gillard outcome on the Mining Tax?

I have a thread on the fountain about the margaret river platform - its a link to a letter to julia

I'm going to find that one.... and offer support towards it! Thanks for the advice on it. Haven't seen the news in quite some time.

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #114 on: July 10, 2010, 11:54:20 PM »
Loco - We have Alcoa near us - so lot of mining jobs in this town, and a lot of flyins flyouts too working up North or Boddington Gold Mine (mmmm gold).

No one I talked to really cared - we think the mining companies dont care about us as a community either.  Lead dust escaping into the town of Esperance - when they were supposed to build a smelter - but didn't - and they knew for a very long time.  Thank goodness for the birds dying - or this matter would have been swept under the rug.

Building a Nickel Mine near Ravensthorpe then closing it down - after the townspeople invest in businesses to support the extra workers, because BHp had promised they were going to be there a long time - but shut overnight.

We have let the Mining Industry get away with so much over here - most of us are sick of them.  They make killer profits over here - yet they dont really do anything extra to give back to us.  Just look at who are the richest people in Australia - mining entrepreneurs, and most of them make money in WA. 

We knew that mining would not really suffer - they are making too much money to split.  I think a lot of us are wondering why it is now only applying to some minerals - why not gold - why not uranium - why not all of them.

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #115 on: July 17, 2010, 09:40:17 PM »
Back to topic.... briefly. I received this link earlier today. Id does make interesting watching. I don't know the presenter too well - but I'd imaging Tello does. See what you think!

Internet Censorship Alert! Alex Jones exposes agenda to 'blacklist' dissenting sites


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG--42sjAvA&feature=related

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #116 on: July 18, 2010, 02:10:21 AM »
Don't know who this guy is, but he's an Aussie with the same message.


How to fight internet censorship in Australia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXSvzvQC5v0

Warning - he uses the 'F' word twice ... but 'appropriately' (if it ever really is...)

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #117 on: July 18, 2010, 03:00:23 AM »
Don't know who this guy is, but he's an Aussie with the same message.


How to fight internet censorship in Australia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXSvzvQC5v0

Warning - he uses the 'F' word twice ... but 'appropriately' (if it ever really is...)

This guy is legendary - some of his stuff is so funny

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #118 on: July 18, 2010, 04:51:10 PM »
Interesting reading.
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/tags/no-clean-feed/

Add your name to the already 127,414 others that are opposed to the "clean feed".
http://www.getup.org.au/campaign/SaveTheNet/442

Partners on this campaign to save the net:

    * Amnesty International Australia
    * Australian Lawyers Alliance
    * Australian Network for Art and Technology
    * Civil Liberties Australia
    * Human Rights Coalition
    * Human Rights Council of Australia
    * Human Rights Law Resource Centre
    * Libertus.net
    * National Arts and Cultural Alliance
    * Media, Entertainment and Arts Alliance
    * Public Interest Law Clearing House
    * Somebody Think of the Children (ironic)

This level of Government censorship is a serious threat to our democratic values, read the facts below:

What is the scope of the prohibited material?

The Government has proposed a two-tiered system. The first tier will be mandatory for all
internet users in Australia, and will block a range of "prohibited" material. The second tier will be
available to families who wish to limit access to a broader range of content.

The Minister for Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy, Senator Stephen
Conroy has suggested that the mandatory filter should block access to "prohibited" material,
as defined by the Broadcasting Services Act 1992

In essence this would block anyinformation categorised X-18 rated by ACMA

Also being considered for inclusion on the blacklist however, are gambling sites (the suggestion of Senator Xenophon) and all
pornography (the suggestion of Senator Fielding).

It is easy to see how the blacklist can
quickly become a greylist – a process made even more dangerous by the fact that ACMA"s
secret list of prohibited material is not subject to oversight, appeal, or review.
It"s worth noting that the banned material – material "refused classification" by ACMA is legal
to view and own, it is just not legal to distribute.

The debate around this internet filter should not be stifled by accusing those that challenge
the scheme of an interest in access to child pornography. The scope of the mandatory filter is
far broader than child pornography alone.

Will the filter accidentally block legitimate material?

Yes. In addition to the broad range of content that will be intentionally blocked under the
scheme, trials conducted by the Austraian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA) in
July 2008 show that an I4SP level filter will accidentally block huge numbers of legitimate
sites.
The best technologies tested accidentally block one in 50 sites; the worst, one in 12
sites.


The Senate Standing Committee on Environment, Communications and the Arts, Estimates, 20 October 2008 (Canberra):
Sen. Conroy: […] I trust you are not suggesting that people should have access to child pornography.
Sen. Ludlam: No. That is why I was interested in asking about the law enforcement side of it as well.
Sen. Conroy: No, we are working both angles at it. We are just trying to use technology to enforce the existing laws.
Sen. Ludlam: I am just wondering if I can put these questions to you without being accused of being pro child pornography.

Will the filter be effective in blocking material that the Government deems inappropriate?

The protection of our children is vitally important and we must ensure that they are not exposed to inappropriate material on the internet. But the filter technologies tested so far will only affect one third of internet traffic, because they do not apply to peer file sharing networksor email. In fact, users can very easily avoid these filters entirely using VPNs, proxies or anonymising software.
Do other western democracies have a similar scheme?
Senator Conroy has said that a number of western democracies already have a similar scheme in place. In fact, as Senator Conroy later admitted, no western democracy in the world has introduced mandatory server-level filtering. In countries where it has beenintroduced – countries such as Saudi Arabia, China and Iran – the schemes have not effectively done the job for which they were designed. In each of these countries, the filter can
avoided. No country in the world goes as far as dynamically analysing web traffic in real time, as Australia is proposing.

Evidence from Saudi Arabia suggests that the central filtering system currently blocks a list ofmore than 12 million addresses, slowing internet access by as much as half, with up to 10 percent  of prohibited sites still getting through.

Will the internet become more expensive?

The scheme makes it mandatory for ISPs to provide internet filtering. The government has set aside $44 million over four years, but in 2004 a Government-commissioned report found that the cost of mandatory ISP level filtering would cost around $45 million in the first year, and $33 million every year after that. Because the filter will involve technical and administrative costs for ISP, these costs will be likely be passed on to consumers. Additionally, while larger ISPs may be able to absorb some of these costs, smaller ISPs (who exert competitive pressure on prices) are at serious risk of becoming financially unviable if such a scheme is introduced

Will the proposed scheme slow down the internet?

The last round of testing found some internet filters will make the internet up to 87% slower, which is bad for access to information, and terrible for e-commerce. The Government has invested over $40 billion in the development of a national high-speed fibreoptic broadband
initiative – an initiative that will be undermined by this ISP-level filter.

What measures can be taken to protect our children from inappropriate internet content while avoiding the worst features of the ISP-level filter?

The previous Government spent $84.8 million on a scheme to provide free PC-based filtering to all Australian families. This scheme is far superior to the ISP-based filtering proposed by the Government.

• It allows parents to track and monitor their child"s access to the internet, and thus intervene concerning harmful content that couldn"t be picked up by an ISP filter;
• It won"t slow down the internet or interfere with online commerce;
• It will cost less to run, as no additional outlay is required, and there will be no burden to consumers or small businesses.

We believe taxpayer funds would be better spent educating parents about this existing PCbased filter.

Importantly, we should also be making sure that the Australian Federal Police's Online Child Sexual Exploitation Team has the resources needed to reduce child exploitation/abuse on the internet; many reports indicated these police taskforces are drastically underfunded...........

They said there would be cake....and there WAS!

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #119 on: July 20, 2010, 08:27:42 PM »
Maybe its just the approach that's wrong.... let's get this thing in with some emotive blackmail..... that'll do it!

The comments are worth a read as well.

Jessi Slaughter and the 4chan trolls - the case for censoring the internet

http://www.news.com.au/technology/jessi-slaughter-and-the-4chan-trolls-the-case-for-censoring-the-internet/story-e6frfro0-1225894369199

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #120 on: July 21, 2010, 04:55:48 AM »
Maybe its just the approach that's wrong.... let's get this thing in with some emotive blackmail..... that'll do it!

The comments are worth a read as well.

Jessi Slaughter and the 4chan trolls - the case for censoring the internet

http://www.news.com.au/technology/jessi-slaughter-and-the-4chan-trolls-the-case-for-censoring-the-internet/story-e6frfro0-1225894369199

A point in case Loco lol, Politicians will use every inane excuse in the book to promote their "15 minutes of fame" I mean what is a bandwagon if you can't jump on it right? It is absolutely ludicrous to assume an internet filter which would take the average low knowledge user a maximum of 1 minute to circumnavigate would be of any use whatsoever.

So which is it? A filter to stop and block (LOL) Pr0n sites and child exploitation sites as per their announcement OR a filter to prevent IM's, MSN, Twitter Facebook, Utube etc (we all know that is impossible and there would be public outrage if they tried.

Already due to filters and laws in place we cannot access certain sites/videos etc, I am sure some of you have at one time seen the message 'sorry you are not able to due this content from your region', I know I have and it was only a comedy routine.

This is how DANGEROUS to civil liberty and rights these sort of Bills are, already (and it has not even been implimented) it has gone from a "innapropriate site" filter to a severe infringement on our rights, anyone seeing a scary pattern emerging? what next

NO internet unless you have a certificate stateing you have permission to use it for research purposes only...utterly ridiculous.

Anyone who advocates such a thing should think long and hard, apathy does no one any favors.

Scare tactics used against the uninformed and uneducated will always work..right?...right? Politicians KNOW this, they reap votes from people that do not understand and who are spoon fed Spin and half truths, they are simply a means to an end and politicians LOVE them.

Regarding 4chan targetting this girl....4chan have long been known to actively seek out ways of being controversial....by ..any...means, once again this highlights the lack of PARENTING NOT the need for a filter..

Protecting children from the internet and society in general is called Parenting, I'll say it again.. PARENTING, the government is NOT a babysitter.

They said there would be cake....and there WAS!

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #121 on: July 21, 2010, 09:15:55 AM »
This is how DANGEROUS to civil liberty and rights these sort of Bills are....... what next


What next? Well, I'll offer some thoughts on that - just my opinion of course....

Recently there was a rather interesting discussion on the 'rights to associate' - as legislated by the "Criminal Organisations Act". It was initially sold to the community under the guise of 'Anti-Biker' legislation..... which in real and simple terms.... it isn't. But... the fear factor played was a good one - people are frightened by bikers - so a large percentage of the population said "Great - lets have it, that'll keep us safe - and get these rogues off the street!" The next organisation added to the title.... well, it could be anyone! (My preference would be the ALP..... but that's just me!)

So, under this thing are limitations on where one can work, who they cannot associate with.... which equals both family and friends, how one may attire themselves.... etc - all on the basis of withheld information that the accused has no access to. Did I mention the right to a fair trial - including the right to challenge the accuser?

OUTCOME = PUSH THESE ORGANISATIONS UNDERGROUND! At least, government can pat each other on the back for a job well done!


Internet filtering seems intent on limiting the availability of information and thus, communication - between people - or across the world. What a wonderful tool for any government, introducing changes that they do not want discussed. It's a pity that this wasn't introduced earlier - as we'd now have a Carbon Tax (ETS) inplace, and people suffering additionally under this burden. When the negative information finally did manage to get out..... no government would be about to withdraw or review a newly introduced tax.  And.... many organisations saw this as a real money spinner. The costs associated with an ETS had already been factored into the charges that the population were going to have to pay - well prior to the event. How wonderful is the use of the word terrorism in making the public see the benefits offered by their government! Fear strikes again!

It seems that the new government policy is to micro manage everything that each of us do. Under these circumstances - peoples' rights are a burden that only serve to get in the road. Simple solution = to remove these rights.

As mentioned earlier.... the above is just my take on what is happening. Time will tell!

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #122 on: July 23, 2010, 01:36:29 PM »
I pinched this item from the Election Thread. Many thanks bnwt!

And people ask me why I feel it difficult to trust politicians!

No Minister: 90% of web snoop document censored to stop 'premature unnecessary debate'



http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/no-minister-90-of-web-snoop-document-censored-to-stop--premature-unnecessary-debate-20100722-10mxo.html?autostart=1

Liisa-Sx

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #123 on: July 23, 2010, 05:54:55 PM »
I opened the pdf of the actual documents and it is unbelievable, even with reading between the many heavy lines obscured with black marker is frightening enough.
They said there would be cake....and there WAS!

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #124 on: July 23, 2010, 05:57:58 PM »
G'day Liisa..... Can you believe it! These people are OUR elected representatives. And they speak of special interest groups! 


.......to stop 'premature unnecessary debate' Therein lies the reason to censor the net..... to stop ANY debate!

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #125 on: July 23, 2010, 08:10:13 PM »
And..... Along Similar Lines....

Web snooping policy shrouded in secrecy

The federal government is hiding controversial plans to force ISPs to store internet activity of all Australian internet users - regardless of whether they have been suspected of wrongdoing - for law-enforcement agencies to access.

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/web-snooping-policy-shrouded-in-secrecy-20100617-yi1u.html

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #126 on: July 23, 2010, 08:42:11 PM »
"The Attorney-General's Department has been holding consultations with industry about implementing a "data retention regime", similar to that adopted by the European Union after terrorist attacks several years ago."

What are the experiences/concerns from those in the EU?

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #127 on: August 05, 2010, 11:20:02 PM »
Why The Filter Won’t Work, A Technical Story

Excellent article. Very interesting read. The expense of setting up such a filter must be immense and knowing it is so unworkable and hence will ultimately fail, makes it all the more infuriating when you think of all the worthwhile things our tax payer’s dollars could be spend on instead.
  Simon Reidy July 14, 2010 at 1:28 PM

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2010/07/why-the-filter-wont-work-a-technical-story/

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #128 on: August 12, 2010, 08:15:04 PM »
A look at Obama's Internet kill switch plan


Now if the President wanted to extend this cyber emergency beyond 4 months, then he would need to get a form of congressional approval to do so, but you can see the concern here.  Private businessmen being told that their business can be shutdown by the President on his own for 4 months, then be possibly extended?

http://www.helium.com/items/1876554-a-look-at-obamas-internet-kill-switch-plan

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #129 on: August 13, 2010, 03:10:01 PM »
Sorry...
"The B@zturd Love Child of Comix & a News Organization"

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Re: Internet Censorship - Another Threat To Our Freedoms Looms....
« Reply #130 on: August 13, 2010, 03:13:33 PM »
thats ok cupcake
no need to apologise