Oz Round Table

The Oz Round Table boards => The Round Table => Topic started by: ernest_price on July 16, 2009, 08:36:43 AM

Title: Pick a schill a day
Post by: ernest_price on July 16, 2009, 08:36:43 AM

One of my daughters and I were looking for 2 camera related items. Very very different items, mind you.

I find my item. It's on a 10 day auction with 5 days gone. No bids. Excellent. Up at some crazy early time so thought I'd break my golden rule and just bid the start price. Within 15 minutes there was a counter bid. Hmmm. That's a classic schill. Hmmm. No bids for 5 days then suddenly someone bids 15 mins after I bid. Leave new higher bidder to buy it. Show to daughter later that day - she reckons I'm a special for a second chance offer within 30 mins of auction ending. Says so with the biggest grin EVER on her face.  ;D

While she's looking at my item, she sees the seller has what she's looking for. So to test it out she pops in a bid, also for an item that's been going for quite a while with no bids. Within 30 mins she is outbid. Pops around to see me with now the newest biggest ever grin.  ;D  Reckons she's also going to get a second chance offer.

So - I do the right thing and we bet morning tea on the result :) Neither of us upped our bids.

Last night was the auction end for both items.

We both got second chance offers within 15 mins of auction end.  :applause:

The scary thing? I like to think I can pick a schill from the stats pretty easily with my background at work. But this one was just about as far away from a schill bidder history as I could find. There were 29 different sellers they had bid with over the last month. 152 bids and only 9 with this seller. Only 6 items won.

It used to be so easy to pick a schill with people's real ID's. Now it's very confusing. The buyer history on my daughter's outbidder was very similar but not the same person. Nearly as though there was faked info popped around the real bidder info. Think I need a tin foil hat at this point. :)

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 16, 2009, 09:04:05 AM

Hi Ernie....does anyone remember Philip from the old rt?  He was dead set against shill bidders and he appeared on the Today show this morning re: Shill bidding on Ebay.....now that's commitment.   Good on him !!

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: ernest_price on July 16, 2009, 09:25:51 AM

Yup. I posted his SMH article a few days ago on the eBay and media reports thread.

Mind you, must be careful ... maybe, just maybe, my daughter and I just had someone randomly outbid us very soon after we placed our bid then both randomly withdraw from the auction and let our seller know within 15 mins of auction end. Nice polite buyers, which is what I'd expect on eBay in Australia!

A part of me says "don't get involved" with the logical conclusion/ugliness of the bidder history bit.

Then again, based on what I've seen over the years in the financial services industry, plus the amazing stuff that happened to cause the GFC why would I be surprised.

ernest_price adjusts tin foil hat.

 

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 16, 2009, 09:41:41 AM

No need to be careful on this topic Ernie...it's a published article we're discussing...cat's out of the bag, and this is just consumer opinion.  Philip makes a very strong case though and quite amazingly...I just went over to ebay and couldn't access the News forums...they don't seem to be visible.....think it might have something to do with the News story?  

No doubt we all recall how they regulated shilling in the RE industry?  And the traditional auction industry?  All bidders must be verified before they can bid right?  ...it's called a 'deterrent'.  mmmmhhh!!!!!  interesting concept eh?

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 16, 2009, 09:46:52 AM

Just figured out why I can't see the Ebay news forums....doh...not signed in.....so...one thing for sure...Ebay don't want the public to know how unhappy their sellers are.....the 'secret society'.....in Ebay space...nobody sees you scream.....lmao

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: tellomon on July 16, 2009, 10:22:21 AM

Quote from: *Cupie* on July 16, 2009, 09:46:52 AM

Just figured out why I can't see the Ebay news forums....doh...not signed in.....so...one thing for sure...Ebay don't want the public to know how unhappy their sellers are.....the 'secret society'.....in Ebay space...nobody sees you scream.....lmao

From the eBay.com boards over the past 1 1/2 years, I have loads of copies on the topic of CENSORSHIP.
Good reading about bad action.

I need to find a publisher. I can't do anything......

Here's random sample:

ebay and free speech stonemanoz   (205  ) View Listings  | Report Nov-01-07 17:15 PDT Clearly ebay does not believe in free speech,because if you criticize it in anyway you're penalised.Yet it allows members to criticize others via feedback given whether you're a buyer or seller,along with allowing abusive emails to be sent between  members,if you complain it comes up with dozens of excuses,asks you for more and more information which you give  them,and a new person responds each time you give them the info they want so you have to keep repeating yourself.It's thier  way of cheating you.Then if you go to the discussion boards for help,they can penalise you again if they don't like anything's  that said - clearly they can't handle the truth!This leaves ebay users with nowhere to go.Is it any wonder people are leaving  ebay in droves?and then thier profits are reduced.Ebay is no longer the user friendly site it once was,it's new found level of  arrogance seems to know no bounds.It needs to go back to the old days of say 4/5 years ago,ebay is a business afterall and  while all businesses operate to make a profit,if a business continues to put profit way ahead of people,the business will soon  suffer.Come on ebay treat people as you'd like to be treated,go back to the old ways.  What's New See what's  new,  cool  and,  soon  on eBay! Get  fast  answers  to  questions  in the  Answer  Center!  Help Now!

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *barny* on July 16, 2009, 11:00:10 AM

G'Day Ernie,

I had a similar "second chance offer" not too long ago, and I too was sure it was shilling... But, upon further examination I was able to establish that the seller had multiple identical items, even though his item description used the word "rare"..

Maybe your seller had more than one... Maybe ??????

 :wine:

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: ernest_price on July 16, 2009, 11:18:01 AM

:) More than one, on multiple items for auction. Maybe :) And both times a higher bid came in within X minutes of the first bid. Maybe :)

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 16, 2009, 11:23:15 AM

Barny, I don't pretend to know much about shill bidding but the very fact that it's all anonymous gives rise to the possibility and instills fear into bidders that it might be.....even you thought you'd been shilled at first.....that's the problem... removing any possibility of shilling is a better way to go..Proactive mitigation...not a new concept by any means.  

As I said in the RE and traditional auction marketplace, it has been addressed in no uncertain terms....all bidders must be verified as being genuine.....at one time in RE...shill bidders would attend an auction to bid up the price....now they must register before the auction and anyone shilling is stitched with the contract of sale or breach of contract...one or the other.   Great deterrent....stopped shilling in the RE industry overnight.

Shilling is not a new concept, and if it's possible, some people will push the envelope.  I have a simple rule...I bid only what I'm prepared to pay and after that I don't bid anymore.... if I'm outbid....that's the end of it....other items I just watch till the end before deciding to bid.....

Curiously...on a number of items I've bid on over the past 6 months (and didn't win) several have shown up again in new listings shortly after the auction ended....this makes me suspicious, and thankful that I didn't bid more.  Needless to say I don't bid on the item a second time....

It could be quite innocent, but the fact that it raises a concern about shilling can't be ignored either.  Where there's a loophole certain individuals will use it to deceive the unsuspecting = human nature.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: ernest_price on July 16, 2009, 12:07:47 PM

I should add, before someone raises it, that the flipside of the whole deal here is if I'm prepared to pay say $100 for something and I can get it delivered to my door for that then I should be happy, irrespective of:

• schill
• high dropship postage
• any other annoyance that may or may not be in the spirit/adherence to agreements etc of eBay sales
• any manipulation of data or reasons for not making all sales transparent that eBay engage in

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: tellomon on July 16, 2009, 01:26:01 PM

= human nature.

Ain't that the specific load o' crap that we don't need.

--->Philosophically speaking, of course....<-----

C):-{=  <" ooops. the "P" word... "<<

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bnwt on July 16, 2009, 01:38:36 PM

The Today Story

eBay scam


video presentation

http://today.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=838042

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: tellomon on July 16, 2009, 02:14:05 PM

Heavy!

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/Thread%20Stuff/thumbs-up.jpg)

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: imperfect on July 16, 2009, 07:02:21 PM

(http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss232/edgabrit/funny_pay_attention.jpg)

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: tellomon on July 16, 2009, 08:19:10 PM

Quote from: Imp on July 16, 2009, 07:02:21 PM

(http://i579.photobucket.com/albums/ss232/edgabrit/funny_pay_attention.jpg)

I am so BOOTLEGGING this pic, that I can't believe that it came from hereabouts locally & became a National scourge  (This used to be a nice 'hood....) and the top Brass are throwing a shindig TONIGHT at all the usual locations.....

( Tello: "Beware of strange offerings!")

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: ernest_price on July 23, 2009, 07:46:34 AM

As a follow on - I just bid on another of that original seller's items. They actually have some good stuff.  ;D

Sure enough, 5 days gone on the auction and no bids. Within 10 mins of me putting a bid on I get outbid. My daughter decided to do the same, again (gee I wonder where she gets her evil streak from??) and like clockwork she bid on a cheap item and it took 40 mins for the outbid to happen.

Once again, the person/s who outbid us both had very very similar info, but just not identical. Again, more like some identical core data with some faked data popped aropund it so it's not obvious it's the same person. Tin foil hat time again, again, again.

No bets with my daughter this time. Second chance offers are 100-1 on.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: mandurahmum on July 24, 2009, 09:06:42 PM

Shill bidding is rampant in the coins and bullion section - we try and warn people on that discussion board, as ebay does not seem to do anything about it.

I cant tell you the amount of reports I have made since our moderator left, and normally nothing is done, even though the evidence is clear for all to see. 

We have one at the moment that apparently ebay have found no evidence of shill bidding even though I reported that the "buyer" seems to bid on all the sellers items, and has a lot of bid retractions and has 100% bidding activity with the seller.  Interestingly the same buyer only deals with that seller. 

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *smee* on July 24, 2009, 09:08:05 PM

hi
mm

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: mandurahmum on July 24, 2009, 09:11:14 PM

Hi smee

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Bellagina on July 24, 2009, 10:20:26 PM

Apparently, ebay will only consider it shill bidding if the ids share an isp address, a last name, a phone number, or an address - so you can just ask your brother in law down the road to bid on each auction for you....
Bid  / buy  history has nothing to do with it!

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: ernest_price on July 24, 2009, 10:39:39 PM

No wonder eBay say it virtually doesn't exist if that's how they check it.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 24, 2009, 11:04:03 PM

I have a section devoted to Shill bidding in my book. It details the rise of " Certain members of Scambay ", and how eBay has changed it's policy to aid shill bidding. It also details how each manipulation of the auctions system is designed to enhance the act of shill bidding, and hides the identity of those who do it for a living.

In my opinion, ebay, who's US staff were found guilty in court of registering shilling id's and using for the practice, outsourced this profitable arm of it's business.
The site many of us suspect of winning the contract to operate this, is a US registered company, and upon investigation, found it to be a Wholesale Beauty and Cosmetic Company in California US.  In an attempt to get the details of the Directors, for a trace, I reported it to the members on one of my forums.

Within a few days, the Domain was moved to another registrant company and they were paid to hide ownership details.

With domain registrations you can pay around $110 US, to have your details hidden and whois will only show the registrant holders name.


We had to end the research there and then because a company trace of US records showed it was merely a dot com company.  I can only assume that ebay would have to pay payments to this site I mention and what better way to do it.
I also believe this site probably operates live world, in conjunction with ebay, which would explain why many of us have to rely on a forum like this, having been banned from ebay's boards.  It would explain how this site gets it's information, while pretending to hate ebay.  I assume such a site would come in very handy for peeps to go and air their suspicions.

I would suggest rather than look at who a site like this would name as crooks etc; look at who they don't name.  You would probably notice that those that everyone used to see, as being habitual shill bidders, never get a mention.

Now you would also think that some power sellers would pay for such a site to use their shill bidding services because it can never be traced back to them.

The people who own the site would be very skilled at registering ID's through proxy servers, using details from people they have purchased from and who have been added to their data base.

No company in the history of the internet can claim to having one quarter of a countries population as it's members, yet ebay does.  It is my opinion that ebays membership is less than 1.5 million genuine members.

As this is just my opinion, and not an accusation, I would welcome others opinions on whether my opinion has merit.

A shill bid of just $5.00 per sale on Ebay, amounts to millions per week in FVF's so you can see why such as joint venture would be worthwhile.  You could perhaps also see why some of the players in that game would want to keep cleansing the forums of anyone who remotely hints at whats going on, or who they think may be trouble in the future.  Especially those who joined the rebellion.

You could also see why some of those people would join a site like OZtion to screw the site, gain as many details as possible, because quite simply, those I have encountered on a site like this would be, are multi lingual, which would lead me to assume that this is a world wide event.


OK, I'll go and take my pills now ;D

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: ernest_price on July 25, 2009, 09:23:55 AM

... and here's me thinking I was radical suggesting that hidden bidder ID's just appeared to be faked up data around real schiller data to make it look less schilly :) Are those the red or the blue pills bobby?  ;D

Where's Phil Cohen when we need him?  :hearnoevil:

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 25, 2009, 09:46:23 AM

350226109170

Have a look at l***a and 8****b
they are working together

350226109139

Have a look at l***a

Same seller, same bidder

I have been watching that seller for a while, countless reports have been sent over the last 3-4 months and guess what the result has been ??


ZERO

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 25, 2009, 09:53:04 AM

310153766153

I helped them get stuck with this one hehehehehe
Have a look at 3****s

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: RiffRaff on July 25, 2009, 10:11:56 AM

Quote from: Poddy on July 25, 2009, 09:46:23 AM

350226109170

Have a look at l***a and 8****b
they are working together

350226109139

Have a look at l***a

Same seller, same bidder

I have been watching that seller for a while, countless reports have been sent over the last 3-4 months and guess what the result has been ??


ZERO

There is nothing in those bid histories to indicate shill bidding.

Result = ZERO

No surprise there.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 25, 2009, 10:34:25 AM

Riff,

To coin one of your phrases

'Even blind Freddy' can see that there is shilling going on in just those 3 instances.

If you had have read the rest of what was in my post you may have gathered that those 3 events are not just isolated cases.

I have been watching that seller for a while, countless reports have been sent over the last 3-4 months

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: RiffRaff on July 25, 2009, 10:45:54 AM

Poddy, you have posted a number of item numbers and a number of bidding ID's that show no indication of shill bidding. It is not possible to say with any degree of certainty that the seller involved is a shill bidder. It's an allegation that cannot be backed-up.

'Blind Freddy' has nothing to look at and I'm sure the seller would thank you for raising your concerns here.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 25, 2009, 11:07:18 AM

Where's Phil Cohen when we need him?

Hi Ernie...why not invite Phillip over here to join in the discussion?  I'm sure we'll get some ACCURATE debate on the subject then...and Bobby and He can compare notes......but be warned..the apologists don't like him much either....I remember when the usual suspects (not the p/seller crew) went after him mercilessly just for having an opinion on the subject.....there might have been something they didn't like about being compared to children in a sand box.....funny, I thought it was a most accurate description at the time, based  on the conduct being displayed by these so called 'grown ups'???...lmao....personally I found him to be a very intelligent bloke....at least he backs up his assertions with fact, not assumption and that's always a good start in any debate....don't ya think?

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: RiffRaff on July 25, 2009, 11:20:58 AM

personally I found him to be a very intelligent bloke....at least he backs up his assertions with fact,

Phil is no wiser on this subject than any other eBayer that knows how to pick an obvious shill. Phil dismisses the reason for the hidden bidder system as some form of conspiracy theory. Nice bloke and well intentioned but none the wiser.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 25, 2009, 11:30:14 AM

Well, I'm sure he'll be able to debate that point himself...I just invited him over here to take part in the debate......I'm sure you'll be able to point out to him where his research is mistaken.....I tend to consider both sides of an argument before assuming inaccuracy, and given Phils' research on this specific subject over 12 months that I can recall, I'm sure he'll have some illuminating information to share.  

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: RiffRaff on July 25, 2009, 11:32:18 AM

Been there, done that.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 25, 2009, 11:53:35 AM

Well, I'm sure you won't mind if we explore the subject further then?

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: RiffRaff on July 25, 2009, 12:01:44 PM

If I have the time I may even join the conversation.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 25, 2009, 12:13:42 PM

Has anyone noticed that the sky is actually a shade of pink, and the moon is made out of marshmellow.

The deep purple fish flying against the pink background is a wonderful sight dont you think?

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: primaryaim on July 25, 2009, 12:31:10 PM

It matters not how many 'experts' discuss this, what matters is that it is becoming difficult for ordinary eBay members to bid and buy without the fear of fraud. Frankly, if there needs to be a ‘discussion by experts’ on how to pick it, does that not reflect on how unfair the system is to ordinary members who just log on occasionally to buy?

On a day to day basis some members are out there in real life bidding on items and not even realising they are being shilled, some realise they are being shilled but say "Oh well, I did not pay more than the bid price I was prepared to pay" but that is not the point, there should not be such an easy process which allows any seller to shill.

Once members realise shilling does happen, their ability to decide if they are being cheated is based on their experience. Most new members would not have a clue and my opinion is they should be more protected by eBay's methods of operation.

A member should NOT have to have a degree in 'shilling' in order to bid on any eBay item. Full stop. The hidden bidders system has seemingly made shilling more frequent and harder to pick unless you have plenty of time on your hands. We should not have to spend 10 minutes checking out various 'leads' in an auction’s bids before we can decide whether to place a bid.

If I joined today and found I had to spend that amount of time to ensure the seller was honest I would just log out and not bother again.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *CountessA* on July 25, 2009, 12:33:20 PM

On the subject of proxy-bidding or shill-bidding (US term for the same thing - the first time I heard that term being used was on the old RT on AU eBay's forums), I think most people who have some experience bidding on certain proxy-bidding-prone items on eBay can see it happening, but because of the superficial way in which eBay investigates the complaints (I'm sorry, but "superficial" it is, in my judgement, being based primarily upon IP rather than upon algorithms that calculate bidding activity, bidding retraction, etc.), it rarely results in eBay admitting that a certain case is indeed shill-bidding.

That means eBay's figures on shill-bidding are low, because eBay's parameters for discerning shill-bidding are insufficient.

Of course there are some buyers on eBay who mistake the normal process of bidding in some auctions as being shill-bidding. They're misled by a) hidden bidders, b) maximum bids and c) snipe bids.

That still doesn't mean proxy-bidding/shill-bidding doesn't occur. You know, I can feel some sympathy for sellers who do resort to shill-bidding, especially if they are hobby sellers who are alarmed when they see an item worth much more than it's received in bidding sitting there, likely to sell at 99 cents - and also for business sellers whose profit margin is very narrow and who run their business on a model that has to include minimising their listing fees and making sure that items do not regularly sell for under a certain price.

Trying to drive up the price artificially, though, is a bad practice. I know most of the eBay members will say that the sellers concerned should begin the listing at a price at which they'd be happy to sell.

But with some items not gaining the bids unless they're begun at 99 cents, I can understand why sellers are frustrated.

However, bottom line - eBay's policies forbid the placing of proxy bids by sellers and/or members' accounts associated with the sellers' accounts, who are bidding merely in order to drive up the price. It's against eBay policy - but I honestly do not think eBay are actually discouraging the practice in any realistic way.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 25, 2009, 12:47:22 PM

Shill bidding detection based on IP addresses can never be detected because of the use of proxy servers. These alter your IP addie making it untraceable, and therefore leaving any investigator with suspicion and no proof.

The only way you will prove it is by seizing computers and checking hard drives.

IF you have a site where people go to report such fraud, and the site was a front for scammers, what better way to find out if people are on to what your up to.  By deleting all threads about it on ebay, outraged people want some where to go to warn people and show off their detective work, thus warning those involved, to retire certain ID's they are using for shilling, and switch to others.  If my scenario is right, then it's ther perfect set up. I have seen many such outraged people on RT over the years, and there will be the usual subjects turn up on the thread to suggest such a site.

Hmmm I wonder what temperature AlicespringsNT is today. ;D

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: primaryaim on July 25, 2009, 12:55:08 PM

I don't feel any sympathy for sellers who feel the need to shill.  Obviously eBay is no longer for everyone who wants to sell online. If sellers now have to resort to dishonesty and fraud to sell their items, and this practice becomes approved by most because they feel sorry for them, what next?

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 25, 2009, 01:19:42 PM

Ebay itself set the rules when their staff was guilty of doing it, and thus found by a Judge.

Others copied it on a personal basis, but my 3 1/2 year investigation into it tells me it's organised.

I just started by trying to work out why people were Trolls, and following those links led to me forming the opinions I have.

Had it just been Trolls trolling, I have their names and addresses, so I would have sorted it as soon as it got too fat into it.

The problem was being able to stay in a place, without being banned, long enough to work out why, and how they did it.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Roo on July 25, 2009, 04:50:34 PM

Oh Bobby!  I told ya not to mention the Diner! :rolleyes:

And before ya get all huffy with me....I go and have a look there sometimes...but aren't connected with anyone there or even post there.

I did post once when there was a big scam going on Ebay...but that was just because I had no choice as Ebay were pulling posts so fast it would make your head spin.

I have been guilty of directing people there for help in the past....but now we have this venue, I know where I will mention next time....and there will be a next time...I feel it in my waters...lol ;D

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *CountessA* on July 25, 2009, 04:53:44 PM

I can't comment on the Diner - I've never posted there.

Roo... as with most things I suppose we expect the worst but hope for the best. There hasn't been much news about major frauds of late, but I'm worried that people might just swallow their own losses and not comment on them if eBay doesn't encourage that in the forums.

It could be that a major fraud is already in progress but it hasn't hit the news.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Roo on July 25, 2009, 05:01:59 PM

Countessa....I have no doubt there have been a few major frauds happening since the new, whiz bang, forums opened. :(

In the time it takes a page to load there these days....they can delete any thread that even smells like it's a bit off....and no one would be the wiser.

Time to get a new tin hat again I'm afraid..... :tinfoilhat:

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 25, 2009, 06:30:53 PM

Hi Roo,  

If you remember rightly Roo....(say that three times fast)...the 6 major frauds of 2008, only got anyone's attention because victims of those scams were googling and finding the old RT....now, all they can do is go to the forums...get slapped for their effort, and give up no doubt...with any luck they'll find this site...It was much easier to uncover a scam in the days of the old RT....but it seems that these days...it's so much easier to cover it up than mitigate it I guess....typical though.  Just slap everyone who says anything remotely negative about ebay.

All the smaller frauds probably go unnoticed because it costs more to pursue it than to let it go....that study called Going, Going Gone....details all of this back in 2006....now it's even worse.......and more widespread...they talk about the 'smaller' frauds that occur frequently as well as the major ones......it's time Ebay verified sellers so they can be traced easily by police....they don't help our police force...they don't have to because they hide in another jurisdiction...

Still gutless....they could do the right thing, but they choose not to....it's the American way of doing business monopoly style....no care, no responsibility...

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Roo on July 25, 2009, 07:19:09 PM

Cupie..couldn't agree with you more...all your points are very valid and I put my hand up as one that would love to see proper verification on Ebay.

Bobby....I have had my share of wannabe auction bombers.

I sell on Oztion...not much these days as I work full time and I just don't have the time nor the energy to give it my all.

I did have a rather nice conversation with an Oztion employee one night at about 2 in the morning...lol

I gave him links to Ebay posts where some folk were 'discussing' my items for sale.  He has taken note of it all and has assured me that I only have to contact admin there if I feel a bidder is a bit suss and they will back me 100%.

Can't ask more than that... ;D

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 25, 2009, 07:51:27 PM

I gave Oztion a miss some time ago...let's not go into it....depends on who you are over there as Bobby has worked out....it's almost a total clone of everything that's bad about Ebay, right down to the forum trolling.....

As for Ebay...it's a nightmare these days... 'Extreme Shopping'....bit like Russian Roulette online......who's got the gun....lol......the last 6 purchase I've made....four sellers decided to simply forget to register the parcels.....I use DD....so what gives them the right to place my purchase at double the risk I'm already taking, in trusting them to trade fairly or responsibly in the first place?  

No doubt if I used Paypal, they'd be demanding that I register?  See how laxidasical the whole thing is?......no standard required or aspired to.....just sloth and apathy...... then I won something the other night and the seller was de-registered by the next day...what's the bloody point....it's all too stressful these days....nothing friendly about it....If I'd paid for the item, I'd be out of pocket for that amount because Ebay won't even reply to someone who's trying to trace a NARU seller holding onto your money...just a joke...you'd think at least they'd lock the bloody checkout when they NARU someone....der !!

While Ebay sit on their hands and 'watch' like a Guinness add of times gone by (Don't worry it's only a nightmare)...then it will keep escalating out of control  Apathy, Fraud & thuggery flourish in the absence of standards, safeguards & deterrents of which Ebay have none........!!!

The absent landlord.....just pay the rent, the slumlord doesn't care if the roof is caving in on your head.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *CountessA* on July 25, 2009, 08:02:04 PM

You know... one of the major problems of the internet is also one of its major features of attraction for some: its anonymity.

Of course when a criminal charge is laid, that anonymity evaporates like dew upon a cobweb. But in the main, particularly because legislation has been slow in catching up with technology, there IS a lot of anonymity online. Some people use that anonymity to behave extremely badly.

It's not only with shill bidding that we see this, but with all sorts of behaviour hidden behind a mask.

I don't like seeing people harassed or intimidated; I don't like cyber bullying; I don't like people abusing others' trust; I don't like hacking or trying to upload malicious code or sending anonymous emails. Honesty is something I value, and the sad thing is that once I see reason to doubt someone's honesty, my trust is gone. I think most of us feel the same way.

If we find ourselves suspicious of proxy bidding on eBay, it taints the whole experience for us, doesn't it? I said earlier I felt some sympathy for sellers who are involved in proxy bidding, but that doesn't mean I condone their actions. I feel for their situation, but it's not an excuse.

Particularly it's not an excuse when the shill bidding is going on with BUSINESS sellers who are not on the breadline, so to speak. They're not after survival or trying not to let a precious heirloom go for peanuts. They're after increased profit in a practice that actually invalidates the whole auction process.

After all, if one is looking for a BIN price, that's one thing. But to enter into a bidding process online, one has to trust the mechanism that will prevent one's highest bid being reached unless other genuine bidders force the price up. If we can't trust that mechanism to do this, why bother bidding at all? Why not just look for a Buy It Now item?

Llama, Llama, we need your lucid explanation of the eBay auction process again!

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 25, 2009, 08:38:15 PM

Hey guys....... :hijack: :drama: :hijack:

Hey Ubbrd.....I think it's time for.......:keelhaul:   :yess:

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 25, 2009, 08:53:45 PM

:hijack: :hijack: :hijack: :hijack: :hijack: :hijack: :hijack: :hijack: :hijack: :hijack: :hijack: :hijack: :hijack: :hijack: :hijack: :hijack:

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *CountessA* on July 25, 2009, 09:00:22 PM

I've split this topic and moved the relevant threads to the fountain. That will help the threads to stay focused and give you room to explore that topic.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 25, 2009, 09:06:26 PM

It' shill bid related Cue ;D

I must apologise though, I guess I am making up for the frustration of never being allowed to post on RT for years.

I do feel it's important for members here to realise, these people are probably the ones that have damaged your abilitiy to exercise your rights to post on Ebay forums, as the MO is so similar, and it goes back to the early days and all the jealousy over who was top dog on RT. I mean the nightwols were hated and loved, those opposed to scambay and Dodgey, and those who were for it, most of it all stemmed from those days. The Power Sellers against those who spoke about the arrogance displayed by some, all the accusations.

And why did we fight so hard to be heard and to stay there...?

It was a far different ebay back then, you could get a bidding war on your mother in law, sales were plentiful, and I think I sold almost everything I listed, and at a higher than start price.

Now, I think it's hardly worth saving.  My motivation is simply to let newbies, and the naive, know what goes on, and give them the tools to protect themselves.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *CountessA* on July 25, 2009, 09:11:05 PM

 :choc: It's fine, Bobby (and it's Countess...!) ... It's hard not to become passionate about injustices or wrongs or problems.

But back to shill bidding... This is a question that's gnawed at me. Why is the term "shill bidding" used on eBay when, in every other context in Australia, such behaviour is referred to as proxy bidding?

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 25, 2009, 09:16:17 PM

The true meaning of Proxy Bidding are bids made on behalf of another person who cannot attend an auction.

Shill Bidding is the act of illegal bidding, ie; bidding on your own auctions to increase the final value.

Proxy is legal Shill is not.


Ebay practises proxy bidding when it ups your bid in increments to the highest bid you have offered.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *CountessA* on July 25, 2009, 09:30:21 PM

It's interesting because the terms seem to have changed in the last ten years. As a little girl, I remember my parents taking me to auctions - and proxy bidding was mentioned as an underhanded way for the auctioneer to drive up the price. If I recall correctly, it was also referred to as a vendor bid.

I don't remember ever hearing "shill bidding" mentioned until I joined eBay.

Of course "shill" itself is an old English word; the "shill" is the accomplice who acts as one part of a con designed to get people buying hastily and paying more by feigning interest in the item up for purchase. I can see how that word has become appropriated for online auction usage, and why the term "proxy bidding" has fallen virtually out of sight in that sense - because online auctions have caused that term to become redefined! Buyers are the ones performing proxy bids now - based upon the online auction model (which derives from a Vickrey auction). It would be too confusing were the term "proxy bidding" used in the older sense now.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Philip.Cohen on July 25, 2009, 09:55:10 PM

As bobbybigbear has already explained, “proxy” bidding and “shill” bidding are two different things.

“Proxy” bidding is the automatic placing of bids by the system as necessary up to the maximum set by the bidder, exactly the same as an auctioneer would exercise an “absentee” bid at a “traditional” form of auction.

Bidding by the auctioneer on behalf of the vendor that is disclosed as such may be lawful in some circumstances because there is no intention to defraud; there is no false representation that there is other interest in the item when there may not be any; the vendor is simply saying that he won’t sell for less.

“Shill” bidding is undisclosed bidding on behalf of the vendor with the intention of artificially raising the price.

The first one is OK, the second one may be OK, the last is a false representation and is fraud and is unlawful.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *CountessA* on July 25, 2009, 10:07:37 PM

Hello, Philip - welcome here.

As I said in my above post, the terms seem to have altered slightly in meaning as a result of the internet and online auctions such as eBay. The proxy bidding term usage that I remember from live auctions were in respect of undisclosed vendor bids (as WELL as permissible and legal bids on behalf of either the vendor or a buyer who couldn't be present at the auction).

However, nowadays, you are quite right. The term "proxy bidding" no longer seems to mean that same thing but refers only to something permissible. A proxy bid can still be undisclosed in some cases - for instance, there are some items sold at auction at Christie's, but no one knows who the buyer is. The bids were by proxy and were undisclosed; however, it was conducted legally and the intention was to maintain the buyer's desire to keep his identity undisclosed, rather than to defraud through artificially driving up the price.

There never used to be a term "shill bidding" in respect of auctions. It's a very recent derivation from the word "shill".

It's probably the best term to use nowadays, given the widespread usage of it as a non-permissible and illegal pattern of bidding placed either by the buyer or by someone associated with the buyer for the purpose of driving up the price.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 25, 2009, 10:08:32 PM

Hello Philip,

Welome to the site, when you get the opertunity have a bit of a read, that will give you a better idea of what we are about :)

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *FluffyDuckee* on July 25, 2009, 10:10:12 PM

Hi Phillip and welcome.   :welcome!:

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 25, 2009, 10:14:00 PM

Hi Phillip, an old hand but new here. Welcome.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 25, 2009, 10:39:55 PM

This is something I write about in the book as well, and mainly deals with collectables where a known value of the goods is evident from existing sales and offline valuations.
It involves people with mutiple ID's.
Say your selling a football card, Value $200, but you want to attract bids so list at $100. Another collector bids $110 with his buying ID. He then shill bids the auction up to $500 using a couple of shill Id's.
Nobody else will bid knowing the value of the card, so it sits. Just before the close of the auction, the shill bids are withdrawn leaving the collectors buying iD being the winner at $110, $90 under value, and when he sells it on his selling ID, it's an instant $90 profit.

I have detected this on quite a few occasions when there have been complaints on the forums about bid retractions, however, ebay, again changes the rules to make it so much harder, and of course my time is limited, and you eventually give up.  I think Ebay, as it is has a sunset clause, and within 2 years will admit defeat at being able to stop scammers, and will go to an Amazon type format.  PayPal will be the core of the flagship as far as earnings, and that will take up the slack when mum & dad sellers drop out of ebay in their droves.  OZtion is all but gone, beset by technical problems that make the site so slow, glitches that see members having to relist up to 800 items because they dropped into Unsold, forums that resemble world war 3, and an Admin with no clue, and the owners, Jumbuck, who refuse to become involved in the sites affairs.  I have posted on my forums for the last few years that on line auctions will self destruct because sites refuse to initiate any worthwhile verification system.

I have also posted for a long time that the government will have to step in and issue Internet Licenses, which will register every user. It would make a lot of money for governments, and free up Police resources, because it would make scamming too risky.  You would have to have your registration licence number before you could connect with a carrier, who could blackban all known proxy servers.       The WWW needs to be cleaned up, the technology is there to do it, but the powers that be couldn't be bothered.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Philip.Cohen on July 25, 2009, 11:43:59 PM

Shill Bidding on eBay: A Case Study
 
For anyone who buys anything on eBay, a detailed case study of shill bidding and the abuse of eBay’s proxy bidding system—all exacerbated by eBay’s introduction of “hidden bidders”—plus a detailed general criticism of eBay’s “clunky” auction platform, at
http://www.auctionbytes.com/forum/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=24033

This auctionbytes post  may have been previously viewed by some, but it has over the past three months grown considerably and has developed into a general criticism of just about the whole of the mechanism of eBay’s auction platform, from the point of view of a buyer. The gist of that criticism is as follows:

Synopsis:

?   very little of the auction system security, that eBay claims to offer buyers, exists in fact;

?   contrary to their claim, eBay has no “sophisticated” nor “proactive” system in place for the detection of the criminal fraud of undisclosed vendor (“shill”) bidding and indeed appears to do nothing about such criminal activity except as a reaction to a user’s report of suspicious bidding activity;
 
?   eBay appears to have no effective matter-of-course verification of users; unscrupulous users can have as many user IDs as they may have email addresses;
 
?   many of eBay’s “rules”, concerning the retraction of bids, cancellation of auctions, etc, are nominal only and are no bar to the machinations of the unscrupulous seller;

?   as a result, eBay’s “proxy” bidding system is so open to abuse by such unscrupulous sellers that to use it, the way eBay intends it to be used, can be an invitation to pay your maximum;

?   the lack of any such effective security effectively “aids and abets” unscrupulous shill-bidding sellers to defraud naïve buyers;

?   anyone naïve enough to bid on a seller-selected “private” auction (ie, “User ID kept private”), on the balance of probability, is going to be defrauded;

?   when suspected fraud is reported, and is found by eBay to be proved to their satisfaction, eBay will conceal that fact from the victim of the fraud; this then effectively is the concealing of a crime after the fact, surely a crime in itself;

?   eBay will never acknowledge to a victim that a fraud has been perpetrated, nor indeed acknowledge that such fraud is even a problem on eBay; eBay therefore sees no reason to provide any mechanism to aid in the recovery of any monies so defrauded;

?   if eBay did have any truly sophisticated and proactive system in place for the detection and control of shill bidding, we would not now be having this debate; and

?   for those buyers (and honest sellers) who embrace eBay believing that eBay acts as an “honest broker” between buyer and seller, I can only say that there are fairies at the bottom of the garden too.

As a matter of interest my “15 minutes of fame” came about after Cade Metz of “The Register” followed up my auctionbytes case study with the following story on 10 July, at
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/10/ebay_and_shill_bidding/

The national Fairfax group (in Australia) then picked it up and on 14 July also gave eBay a serve, at
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/biz-tech/phoney-bidding-rampant-on-ebay-20090714-djsr.html

The following morning I had a call from “A Current Affair” which I declined; then ABC radio called and talked me into doing an interview (eBay got to respond with their classic disingenuousness 30 minutes later); then the “Today” show called …

The Australian Nine Network “Today” show also ran the story on 16 July, at
http://today.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=838042

Even the author’s local newspaper gave the story a run on 21 July:
http://www.theleader.com.au/news/local/news/general/bid-to-stamp-out-fakes-during-online-auctions/1572834.aspx

All the three “newspapers” invited responses from eBay. Apart from the usual pathetic, disingenuous responses reported in the above articles (that I have further responded to in the auctionbytes thread), the author is yet to receive any direct communication from eBay as to any aspect of the facts that are presented, or the conclusions that are drawn therefrom, that eBay may care to dispute.

But, of course, the real question is, will we ever be able to shame this greedy, unscrupulous, disingenuous organisation (eBay, that is) into providing the auction security for buyers that it claims to provide but that it, demonstrably, does not?

In the meantime, the journo at the Herald has expressed an interested in following up this matter of eBay’s facilitating of shill bidding with the regulatory authorities and so would anyone who notices any activity that is very probably shill bidding, please supply the auction number(s) and suspect ID(s) to the author at formset@exemail.com.au

Bear in mind that, alone, a high percentage of “Bid activity (%) with this seller” may or may not be an indicator of shill bidding: 100% of bids on only one auction with this seller, may well be meaningless. As the number of auctions of the seller that a bidder is bidding on increases the probability that it could be shill bidding also increases, regardless of the number of bids on each auction. I wonder why it is then that eBay does not supply that statistic (ie, “Items bid on with this seller”), nor do they directly identify the seller in the “30 Day Bid History” list (you have to try and figure that out yourself)? Could I be so cynical as to suggest that the information is supplied in such a clumsy format deliberately so as to make it as difficult as possible for genuine bidders to work it all out?

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 12:32:56 AM

Very interesting reading Philip.

I thank you for posting all the links in one place so people can get a better idea of what is going on.

Your work on the matter is of great value and everyone should take the time to read what you have collated

Thanks again :)

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: tellomon on July 26, 2009, 07:25:19 AM

How many shill bidders does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

***Insufficient data to formulate a response***

 :(

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 26, 2009, 08:21:01 AM

I wonder why it is then that eBay does not supply that statistic (ie, “Items bid on with this seller”), nor do they directly identify the seller in the “30 Day Bid History” list (you have to try and figure that out yourself)? Could I be so cynical as to suggest that the information is supplied in such a clumsy format deliberately so as to make it as difficult as possible for genuine bidders to work it all out?


That would be putting their hands in the air and saying " We are guilty ".

Every time I have tried to have my ban overturned, and have given information to a pink, the pink has disappeared and a
" New" starts.  Of course they don't, but people get sick of trying to get justice and simply resort to getting another ID, which helps ebay to say " Look how many members we have"

I remember when they made the fuss over the 5 millionth member, and I thought, what if it was one of their shill ID's.

Of course that wouldn't happen because ID's are a couple of keystrokes for staff, their is no audits to confirm anything, no system put in place where a government body can walk in and check.  If Police asked for records they could be doctored in minutes.   Just as the system is open to manipulation by members, so it is for staff.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 08:48:07 AM

Quote from: RiffRaff on July 25, 2009, 12:01:44 PM

If I have the time I may even join the conversation.

I guess Riff just couldnt find the time to join the conversation, pity that.

I was so looking forward to his gems of wisdom and his 'voice of reason'

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 26, 2009, 09:09:21 AM

Every time ebay changes the rules, it aids shill bidding. In my opinion " Second Chance Offers " were introduced because so many shill bidders were getting stuck as winners, and the sellers employing the shill bidders where having to pay fees.
Ebay's own rules dictate you must go through the dispute process, which takes up to 21 days, so why would they allow sellers to circumvent this process.

Why is it that second chance offers are generally received within 24 hours....?

A lot of people who are not going to follow through on the auction, just don't reply, and yet sellers are supposed to go through the process and wait before declaring an NPB.  I understand when the seller has multiples, but every SCO I have received has been for single items, so my assumption is that it's a scam, or a shill bidder being declared the winner, and the seller has full knowledge it's a shill bid, so sends a second SCO..

If this thread keeps going, I needn't bother selling my book, they can read it here. ;D

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 09:17:13 AM

Bobby,

Just think of all the lovely new material that you are getting to include in your book.

Perhaps Riff might even grace us with his presence and impart some of his extensive knowledge on the subject in the next day or two.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: RiffRaff on July 26, 2009, 09:18:34 AM

Only too happy to oblige Poddy......as soon as I see a conversation taking place.

I read Phils' post but I can't find the part that confirms that the ID's you claim are shill ID's are in fact....shill ID's.


I did find this though:

Bear in mind that, alone, a high percentage of “Bid activity (%) with this seller” may or may not be an indicator of shill bidding: 100% of bids on only one auction with this seller, may well be meaningless.


I also note that there is no acknowlegement of the reason for the introduction of hidden bidders.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: RiffRaff on July 26, 2009, 09:22:58 AM

No need to edit your posts Poddy. I'm sure this site can cope with one additional post.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 09:23:51 AM

Riff,

So glad you found the time to join in.

Perhaps you could enlighten us on the virtues of the hidden biodder policy.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 09:25:47 AM

Riff,

No need to edit your posts Poddy. I'm sure this site can cope with one additional post.

what ARE you on about ?

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 26, 2009, 09:28:16 AM

I'll give you a possible explanation for hidden bidders.

Many people who bid on auctions have been intimidated by fake ID's threatening all sorts of things if they don't back off bidding.
Many who have won auctions have been contacted by others wanting the details of the seller, and some of these people have complained about, long and hard.

It is a security issue, and showing bidders is a system that allows vendetta's against members, to flourish, and that's by outbidding the person under attack, everytime they bid. Through advanced search, you can check and see what any member is bidding on, so it makes it easy for the Trolls to use a fake ID to outbid their victim everytime.

This not only affects the buyer, but the seller as well, and possibly a reason for SCO.  I have opinions, but one has to be fair and put both possible scenarios.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 26, 2009, 09:38:56 AM

 :rofl: at Tello & Poddy...Hi Phil....nice to see you contributing your knowledge here...Shilling is a complicated issue, and one which you appear to have cracked the 'nutshell' on....Well done !!

Could I be so cynical as to suggest that the information is supplied in such a clumsy format deliberately so as to make it as difficult as possible for genuine bidders to work it all out?

Yep...you may, you have, and many agree....they do the same with statistics of fraud.....Does anyone recall when Ebay claimed fraud as being representative of a 'TINY' percentage of all transactions ?.....no Fraud on Ebay...nup...just a few unlucky punters...This was pre-paypal), and in response to a precedent study in 2006  (Going, Going Gone?)

In the same year as that precedent study.....the Police Online Auction Fraud Reporting initiative was launched by  QLD Police....In it's first year of operation to 2007 end of Financial year, 23 recidivist Ebay frauds were found responsible for half of Qld's fraud reports.....They simply kept signing up using another dodgy ID and instantly gained access to a Nation Wide Pool of potential victims...over, and over again.....Bit like shooting fish in a barrel.   (Meanwhile...Ebay like to 'Watch').  

If there were minimal fraud on Ebay as they claimed pre-paypal, I doubt that Police would have been able to justify the implementation of an Online Auction Fraud initiative specifically aimed at Ebay related fraud.......it doesn't work like that...the problem has to be demonstrably widespread for budgets to be allocated to a project like that.  These days it has expanded to include all online auction sites, because as we know..fraud flourishes in the absence of safeguards and deterrents.

Then..... they purchase Paypal....and overnight...Fraud is rife....Paypal is the only answer (at a lucrative fee)  oh....don't they call that extortion ?...I digress....and they even go so far as to accuse ACCC of placing consumers at risk of all this fraud that only a year before was almost non existent?  mmmhhhh...wag that dog ???

So we might deduce from this that Recidivist fraud is indeed as rife on Ebay as it was in 2005/6...and I believe it would be appropriate to conclude that this is the result of the laxidasical membership practices = it's easy to get away with so frauds love it.  

Registering members and cooperating with Police investigation of fraud, (in conjuction with the Police initiative and not against it) would soon make it difficult for recidivist fraud to exist....Those committing fraud under their own identity, would be responsible for that fraud in the first place, and prevented from engaging in recidivist fraud, unless they stole someone else's identity and dug themselves even further into criminal conduct...Sure there would be those who try to fluff the verification process, but they'd soon stand out from the crowd.

I think it's safe to say that Ebay have more twists and turns than a black snake in a bushfire....As for shilling in the real world.....Does anyone recall when this practice was rife in the Real Estate marketplace?    Anyone could bid on an auction at one point, but these days they have to register their identity as a bidder with the Auctioneer...or they can't bid.......Similarly...don't live auctions require a credit card on file or registration of bidders, who hold up their bidding number as they bid?....so the practice isn't acceptable in either of these industries.....Phillip...I concede, I haven't researched the actual nuances of RE and Live Auctions, but I do believe that on face value... the one glaringly obvious mitigation against shilling and consumer fraud on Ebay, would be Registration of sellers and bidders....wouldn't it?  

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 09:43:36 AM

Bobby,

I guess that your explanation could be possible, but can you see anywhere , that by doing that it would increase eBay's bottom line?

I cant imagine eBay doing ANYTHING unless they could increase their profits

In my scenario, buy introducing the hidden bidder policy their bottomline has been greatly inflated due to the shillbidding that hidden bidders allows and even encourages.

Which do you think is more likely?

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 26, 2009, 09:50:56 AM

I agree 100%, and I am convinced of it, as much as I am convinced that ebay is complicit, and pays to have shill bidding done.

I was playing devils advocate though, and in order to be fair, I put the other scenario.

You only have to look at the motivation, and money is the greatest motivator when it comes to shareholders & profits.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: RiffRaff on July 26, 2009, 09:50:59 AM

That's a valid point Bobby. The hidden bidder system also eliminates fake SCO's. This was a pro-active step to combat fraud.

Poddy, you edited post 66 and made it 'less baiting' before you knew I had seen it.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 10:00:06 AM

I ask again Riff what are you on about?

How was the post 'baiting' and what was edited out of it.

Riff, if you go about making these sorts of accusations please back them up with fact.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: RiffRaff on July 26, 2009, 10:05:52 AM

Apologies Poddy, I see the baiting post is number 64. My mistake.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 26, 2009, 10:08:14 AM

One of the hardest things to do is to put aside personal feelings and grievances over things that happen on ebay.
Personally, I am a dinosaur as far as values in life goes.  The internet is not a place where traditonal values hold true.
It has been a bitter lesson for a kid who grew up in Tiger Town, to come to the realisation that the world has changed, and that respect isn't offered until your found unworthy, these days, people seem to prejudge things, because of a bad experience.
It is true that Ebay makes changes that can suit either point of view, ie Pro ebay, or against ebay.  We are all influenced by personal experience, but there are indicators to prove ones opinion.

Ebay is profit driven and relentless in it's pursuit. It has shot itself in the foot many times, but in my experience, companies like ebay are always working towards an event several years down the track. We are never privy to their long term planning, so as watchers of ebay, we have to be reactionary by nature.  The question is for us to decide, is ebay also reactionary to current conditions, or are they visionary, and slowly implementing changes to end up with a final product that will be unveiled in a couple of years.
My scenario, if true, as far as shill bidding, will have to come to an end, too many people will look at it and decide to dig.
No harm in earning good money in the meantime, but what will we end up with, if the Amazon theory is correct, it will do away with bidding anyway, so I will stick to my theory for now.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 10:11:24 AM

I'm sorry you find that post 'baiting'. As you know I like to hear opposing views and I know that I can rely on  an opposing view from you every time.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 26, 2009, 10:22:19 AM

Post 64 Baiting....?

Bloody hell, I wish that's all I had to complain about. Riff, never go to OZtion, this is a tame one.

Quote

Replied by barmybee on 23-Apr-2009 19:54 (Ref 1730323) Report
OK, I'll put this very simply Lovablefashion in words even you can understand.

Leave Oztion now. We don't want you or your fakes.

Bye bye.

* Insert two-finger emoticon here*

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 10:27:49 AM

Bobby,

I, for one have backed off from bidding in the way that I used to, in the past it was bid midway through the auction and then see how many bidders i had against me and try to judge what they would go to.

These days I either go for BIN or bid at the last second if it is below what I want to pay for the item.

By the way in all the time that I have been on ebay, and after over 1,200 sales and purchases i have receives only 2 SCOs that is 0.016% of all the transactions.

So the SCO excuse just wont wash

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 26, 2009, 10:36:17 AM

LMAO...Poddy...I've NEVER had an SCO in 8 years of buying and selling....so how prevalent is that practice to the extent that it requires anonymity amongst members?  i.e. hidden bidders.

I think the one good thing about hidden bidders is that those trying to target you, can't establish what you're bidding on by looking at the bidders on the auction itself....these days you'd have to guess who is P***? or C***S etc.  So in that regard, trolls have less ability to target their unwarranted attacks on buyers...not sure if it does anything to protect Sellers though.

Anyway...as we all know by now...Ebay is moving away from the auction platform...There have been numerous recent articles about this very intention that ebay make no secret of...so soon the whole issue of hidden bidders and shill bidding will be a thing of the past...ebay will deal with it by phasing out auctions......that is their future intention Bobby.  

what is needed is a site to step into the auction void.....and Google seems to be one such contender...See ACCC late submission...it was a doozy....name shielded and everything...hehehe...but some clever person found a way to identify the submission using their IT skills...

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 26, 2009, 10:40:13 AM

My average is better than that. my BBB ID has less than 500 feedback, 478 I think, over all auctions sites going back to 1996, it's over 10,000 from memory, my ebay AU account received dozens of SCO's when I was actively bidding, which may confirm my suspicions of vendetta based bidding. I have never accepted an SCO, in fact I don't even reply.

I tried to get ebay to bet rid of my BBB a/c, because of the ferals, but they didn't answer, and Shane reckons they cant gaurantee nobody else won't register it if I let it go, so it can sit there for all I care. I may purchase with it, but the threats I have had from an eatery, stated they would be interfered with so ebay again loses out on fee's.

I have limited space where I reside, so for the first couple of years I would purchase a boat in winter, do it up, use it for summer, and sell it.
These morons posted that I sold stolen boats.  Why would you bother ;D

I could make their life hell in the real world, but why bother. I have always stated though, some should be praying I don't get a terminal illness that has some time attached to it. ;D

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 10:50:09 AM

Cupie,

You dont have to guess who the bidder is


The cryptic a***b that is allocated to a bidder is only allocated once and that is what you have fron then on regardless of how many items you bid on.

All you have to do is to have a look at at auction, note the item number and the seller,

Wait for a while until that iten gets feedback and the bidders ID is revealed, try it sometime.

then if you wanted to and had the time you could create a database of cryptic ID and the ID that they correspond to

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 26, 2009, 10:55:36 AM

Perhaps I should also mention this:

From 1996 until 2005 when I joined a site, I had never had a phishing email, never been spammed, never had one problem at all on any sites, except for a bit of baiting on ebay's RT.

The email address I used on that site is still active, but is not the one I use for ebay.

When I changed it on ebay, the spam and fishing emails continued, until I decided on a little experiment.

I announced on a forum that I had changed it.  The phishing emails stopped, but the spam from sex sites continued.

They do seem to have abated of late, but so have a few other things that were happening.

Perhaps it has something to do with the fact I am closing one of my forums on the 9th of August.


Coincidence...?    I don't think so, where there is smoke, there is an indian with a blanket sending out signals.


 ;D

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 26, 2009, 10:59:20 AM

So...Poddy when it comes to the determination of some ne're do wells, all they'd need to do is set up a list of ID's they've targeted and their hidden bidder names..? is that what you're saying?

I too have periods when Spam email is out of control..but I've had the same email address for years.....and it tends to have it's peak periods......I've been told (I think by Llama) that spam is all over the net...and then again, others have said that Ebay sells our details for spamming purposes.....so many conspiracies abound, it's sometimes hard to see the forest for the trees....perhaps that's the whole point.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 11:01:53 AM

It would appear so.

I get no more spam per year than around 20 and i have had my email addy since 1995.

But I do have a good hardware firewall :)

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 11:08:56 AM

ebay claim that the hidden bidder algorythem is so secure, I say BULLSHIT

it would be so easy to allocate a different cryptic ID for each auction for its duration and then another for a different auction, now that would be a far better degree of 'safety'

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 11:11:30 AM

Its a ferfy, like the PayPay securiety, ..... even Al Capone has a PayPal account, and it is legit hahaha

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 26, 2009, 11:27:55 AM

You Know...I think Phil may have summed this up at one or more times in the past.....but the net effect of all this shill bidding is to drastically alter bidding practices (for those in the know at least).  But what of all the newbies who haven't got a clue they're the target of a sting, imposed upon them in the name of privacy/security?  Jeese..now I've heard everything.

Those of us that have followed Phil's investigation into this, (and those who have done their own investigation) would no doubt have changed their bidding practices.  

But that's only those of us who know about it....what about all those unsuspecting bidders who haven't got a clue that this type of thing exists, and that they are being conned out of more money than they needed to spend.   I think that was what Phil was trying to alert people to...

Ive noticed lately that everything I bid on is outbid shortly after , but if shill bidding or even trolling is behind it....too bad, so sad...I don't engage in bidding wars with anyone....so I just let it go, and don't bid on the item again.

From now On, I'm gonna become a 'watcher', and last minute bidder....let's see em screw around with that eh?...lol  

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: RiffRaff on July 26, 2009, 11:30:18 AM

The cryptic a***b that is allocated to a bidder is only allocated once and that is what you have fron then on regardless of how many items you bid on.

It was established on the old RT board when it existed, that this is not the case. The allocated cryptic ID does change randomly.


Poddy, it's a pity Al Capone is unable to transfer his ill-gotten gains into a bank account. I think we've been here before.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 26, 2009, 11:31:28 AM

I think it depends who you deal with on Ebay. Never had the occasion to but of Power Sellers until the end of 2005, when the boredom of being retired far too young took hold.  We decided to ply my trade around the markets, and bought saleable stock from Power Sellers. This was around the time I joined the site I mentioned, which as Hawk alluded to, was part of the embrionic vendetta.
It may or may not be related, and as for conspiracy theories, in my case, proven beyond doubt when I received an email from a person from that site stating:

" Leave the XXXXX alone and your problems will go away ".

I still think it's connected and may post out out of public view, some supporting facts.

Can someone tell me why, when I type below the level of this message box, the box itself jumps up and down, and I cannot see what I am typing, and continually have to scroll down to see. Then start typing blind again.  Is it an issue on my end, because it happens 9 times out of ten.....?


Cupie, they are trying to outlaw sniping now are they not ;D

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 26, 2009, 11:38:01 AM

Quote

Poddy, it's a pity Al Capone is unable to transfer his ill-gotten gains into a bank account. I think we've been here before.

No but multiple accounts are allowed, and goods bought with the proceeds of a Paypal account can be sold on another online site, can be used to buy normal household expense items, presents, overseas payments to accounts which are then returned as cash deposits, quite often shared through families to avoid ATO detection.

This leaves a persons income, especially if on a Centrelink payment, all free to live on, and maintaining and unfair advantage over the needy, who are not aware of this method of cheating.

The finacial institutions are still being used to launder money, that's why ID theft is so prevalent.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 26, 2009, 11:45:07 AM

Cupie, they are trying to outlaw sniping now are they not

Yeah I heard that, can't see how they can police it though...even if they had minute extra for late bidding i.e. the auction extends.....wouldn't it make any shilling that much more obvious and labour intensive?  Not sure...this is a subject that I'm not well researched on and that's why I invited Phil here to let us all know how it works. or doesn't...lol

As for me...I won't bid anymore until the end of the auction and if they police that...well...I just won't bid at all.....It's amazing...I'm in a rural location and when Ebay hit town they were going to solve all our problems with access and availability of goods....now, they're extorting most of us over it...so it's less an inconvenience, than it is a disadvantage and I view that as extortionist.....either Join Paypal or the door to e-commerce is duly slammed in the face of those with the least access to buying and selling goods.  Hey and right in the middle of a recession when that access is needed more than ever?  Heroes aren't they?  What was it Danny boy said?  Good Corporate Citizens?  oh please.

Anyway once again, we're getting off topic....we should open a Paypal debate thread actually...it's such a sore point all on it's own merit.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *CountessA* on July 26, 2009, 12:08:32 PM

Shill bidding is one of the reasons I have planned my bidding strategy. It's also due to having observed that an item with a bid on it may attract higher bids from other buyers, so that a bidding war begins. I try not to signal to other buyers that I'm interested in an item, so in general, if I am going to bid on an item, I will ONLY place a snipe bid using a free sniping service.

If I'm worried the seller might pull the item because there are no other bids in it, I might place a holding bid (minimum). That way, the seller at least knows his item is going to sell.

I always place my maximum bid using the sniping service. If I don't win, it won't be because I was playing the "stingy game".

But the issue of shill bidding has affected my willingness to bid, too. I'm prepared to be outbid by another serious bidder, or to have my bid pushed up to its maximum because another genuine bidder is also seriously interested - but I don't like having my bid pushed up because the seller wants to get a higher price through faking interest from a spurious other bidder.

By the way, I've never received a second chance offer. Could this be due to the sort of items on which I bid? Can I ask what sort of items people have bid upon to receive an SCO? Is it possibly electronic items?

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 26, 2009, 12:18:16 PM

Cue I have lived in a rural area since 2004, so I know exactly what your talking bout.

Countess, as I have stated, mainly from Power sellers, which raises suspicion given what many of us suspect about this genre of seller.

To defeat shill bidding, you need discipline, and set the price your willing to go to, regardless od any sort of bidding, and sit back and wait and see what happens.

I never bother with auctions now, I have watched them, waiting to snipe at the last minute, but since moving here, I have found ADSL almost as slow as the old dial up days, so a sniper prgramme will always defeat you.

The technology is their to defeat these programmes so ebay wouldn't have much problem getting rid of them.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 12:22:40 PM

There was one seller I exposed a while ago who sent out second chance offers to all bidders over a certain price.

He claimed that he was selling genuine Apple Ipods, but they were fake.

He would shill bid these fakes up to a high price and then send out the SCOs

I tried to get his opperation pulled but ebay ignored it for 2 weeks or more.
He was selling around 10 a day at around $150 a time plus SCOs.

In the end all i could do was contact the bidders and alert then that they were fake and then bid on all of them at $500 each the seller was pissed but in the end eBay did close him down.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *Yibida* on July 26, 2009, 12:25:20 PM

Quote from: RiffRaff on July 26, 2009, 09:50:59 AM

That's a valid point Bobby. The hidden bidder system also eliminates fake SCO's. This was a pro-active step to combat fraud.

Poddy, you edited post 66 and made it 'less baiting' before you knew I had seen it.

Riff..all members have the ability to review and amend post's before they are permanent, I think every member has a 30 minute widow to do this, how many times have you thought wish I could go back into my post to change something I wasn't happy with?.. I think this one single feature is worth it's weight in gold, many potential arguments can be avoided by having this feature to be able to re-think your wording..........

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 26, 2009, 12:32:20 PM

Poddy, are you telling us that you subcribe to the theory of honest shill bidding/ auction bombing, to expose a scammer.....?

And did you perform this action with legally registered ID's traceable to you........?

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: RiffRaff on July 26, 2009, 12:48:53 PM

Countessa. I have received a fake SCO on a motorcycle. Luckily, I contacted the original seller to check the authenticity, then sent the email to eBay. The items I have heard of in the past that are targeted by the scammers have been in the higher price range (eBay motors). BTW UHM.

Yib, that was my error.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 12:50:16 PM

Yep my own real live account just to prove to ebay that the seller was a scammer.

I sent a mail to T&S before i did it and also talked to Live Help to tell them what I was doing, I had the email so it couldnt be swept under the carpet hehehehe

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: tellomon on July 26, 2009, 12:59:30 PM

Can I ask what sort of items people have bid upon to receive an SCO? Is it possibly electronic items?

Drum parts & accessories; cymbals, Hot Rod T-Shirts and DVDs.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 26, 2009, 01:02:51 PM

You cant enforce the law by breaking it yourself. It's vigilante stuff and what dodgy and scambay was all about.

It also signalled one of the darkest periods of RT, when those ID's that were registered to do this, were turned on good members, simply because some of the morons with these ID's had found a way of controlling the forums by using their multiple ID's to report peoples posts, knowing full well the automatic reporting system would end up having them banned.

As noble as some think the cause may be, it leads to the temptation of using the method for other means, and that $hits me to tears, as a victim of it.
I have never met one person who does this that will ever admit to getting it wrong, yet I know many who were wrongly accused because of agenda's far removed from selling.  It has been used for category domination, and for those who are simply better marketers, who have sales well beyond a jealous competitor, who doesn't mind doing what you do.

Not impressed at all.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 01:04:18 PM

Tello,

Would they have been Zombie DVDs by any chance?

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 01:15:45 PM

I broke no actual or moral law.

If the items that were adertised would have met the criteria of their description I would have honoured my bid.
But as I KNEW that they were fake I was not bound by any moral or actual law to pay for a fake.

The side effect of this was that a lot of people were saved from getting ripped off and it highlighted to eBay the bidders were being taken advantage of by a crook.

Some of the unwary bidders WERE impressed that someone put their neck on the line for them fo no gain.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *Yibida* on July 26, 2009, 01:18:48 PM

Quote from: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 01:15:45 PM

I broke no actual or moral law.

If the items that were adertised would have met the criteria of their description I would have honoured my bid.
But as I KNEW that they were fake I was not bound by any moral or actual law to pay for a fake.

The side effect of this was that a lot of people were saved from getting ripped off and it highlighted to eBay the bidders were being taken advantage of by a crook.

Some of the unwary bidders WERE impressed that someone put their neck on the line for them fo no gain.

Wherever there is injustice, you will find me.
 
Wherever there is suffering, I'll be there.
 
Wherever liberty is threatened, you will find... Poddy !!....LOLOL you da man !!

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 01:19:04 PM

How did I KNOW they were fake?

2Gb red iPods dont exist and never have done

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 01:21:30 PM

Hey Yibi do I have to wear a cape now and wear my jocks on the outside?

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: tellomon on July 26, 2009, 01:22:06 PM

Tello,

Would they have been Zombie DVDs by any chance?

I'm calling "Off Topic" !!!





C):-{= <" what do think, Winston?"

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 26, 2009, 01:23:49 PM

Wherever there is injustice, you will find me.
 
Wherever there is suffering, I'll be there.
 
Wherever liberty is threatened, you will find... Poddy !!....LOLOL you da man !!

Hi Ho Silver.......................

(http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp125/cueperkins/loneranger-1.jpg)

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 26, 2009, 01:29:57 PM

Poddy, I have seen that posted a thousand times, I have two hardrives full of posts where people boasted of such deeds.
My first visit to the Diner I read where one bloke (name supplied on request) admitted to having over 500 id's naru'd in less than a year, doing the same as you did.

This person's hatred grew of members on RT who spoke out about this type of action. One member was driven to the point of nervous breakdown, I have have pursued this idiot since he started his vendetta on me, he has vented his spleen in the most obnoxious way, to many members of RT over the years.

It always starts somewhere Poddy, and this mongrel taught others how to do the same things, and on it went as they followed in his games.  I agree, the problem is large, but if the same thing was done to you, and you were selling a genuine product, and it was done because someone didn't like you, or you stood up to a baiter on a forum, how would you feel.

It happens, has happened, and continues to happen, because people step outside the rules, and that's what the scammers do, and if the ordinary everyday members decide to take it upon themselves to use deceitful means to stop it, then it ecourages other forms of this behaviour, and then anarchy rules.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 01:39:47 PM

Just by your description of person you have described i know you are meaning dear Bwoosie.

Bobby he and I have crossed swords many times.

You may have missed that I did inform ebay of my actions prior to doing then and that it was done with my real ID.

I would also help a person getting mugged without waiting for a cop to show up

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: tellomon on July 26, 2009, 01:46:45 PM

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/3737885.jpg)

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/3736380.jpg)

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r271/rontello/ShowLetter-15.jpg)

See what you did?

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 26, 2009, 01:51:37 PM

Quote

I would also help a person getting mugged without waiting for a cop to show up

Done that more times than you have had hot dinners, just where I grew up teaches you that.

My bet is ebay didn't approve of your action though.

I am not going to condem you for wanting to save others from being ripped off, but ebay will eventually close because of all the side issues like this as well.


Actually not Bwooosie, but possibly the bloke that taught him, back when he wasn't a bad bloke.


I have been so tempted to use the same tactics against them, but so far resisted the urge.

If they stick their ugly heads up again, you and I will talk ;D

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 01:52:33 PM

hey Tello,

Any Zombies come out of the ground after that quake?

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 01:58:55 PM

Yes Bobby, there is a choice in life that you have to make, there is no middle ground, no fence to sit on.

That choice is , are you going to be a mugger or are you going to oppose muggers.

Some people think that they can live on a knife edge but a lot of people do the splits, pun intended.

OUCH!!!!

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 26, 2009, 02:04:35 PM

I've always viewed things from a big picture perspective....causative factors cannot be ignored in all this........I believe that Ebay is responsible for fostering the actual 'culture' and opportunity for shill bidding to exist, and as such, it is their responsibility to curtail it.... it follows therefore, that until they take responsibility for the shill culture they've created....then opportunistic people will push the envelope.  

So do you blame those who take advantage of a loophole that Ebay clearly do nothing to close? or do you consider Ebay responsible for enabling and perpetuating the culture of shilling in the first place via their indifference to it?  In this case, it's not a matter of the chicken or the egg....If ebay acted to curtail the practice by verifying members, and allowing only 2 accounts per member etc (amongst other things) then maybe the culture would change.

Extreme Commerce...Greed is Good....Anything for a buck mentality !!!

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 26, 2009, 02:05:45 PM

In the real world, I have had no problems in the direction I take. I hate bullies, and always took a stand against them.
Same with crooks, but in my days it was totally different. Crooks didn't worry families and deccent people, only petty crooks like thieves, and they were dealt with if caught.

The internet is something different, and those that have criminal tendencies, but are worried about retribution in the real world, don't seem to have much fear on the internet.

Anyway, the Tigers game is about to start so I'll be watching that, and drop by later.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: tellomon on July 26, 2009, 02:11:03 PM

Any Zombies come out of the ground after that quake?

No.

DRAGONS, ya wonk!!!!

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: ernest_price on July 26, 2009, 02:11:16 PM

Well it's only 2 days until I get my next SCO and a daughter who will have the world's biggest grin as she gets her next SCO from this seller also.

The original items we both got our first SCO's from this seller are magically up for sale again now, after waiting an 'appropriate' time between ending and re-listing, of course.

Is bidfraud a decent site to pop their name on or ?

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 02:12:28 PM

Cupie that culture will never stop, morality has been bred out of, and the God $ bred into the generations, I can't see a reversal of that no matter how hard I look, all that can be done is resist the trend in the hopes that others may also become awae of it and resist as well.

Yibi and room om Mars for a small colony?

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 02:18:02 PM

ernest,

I think Phil Cohen had a link that you can use earlier in this thread.

As a matter of interest what is the iten that you will SCOs on :)

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: ernest_price on July 26, 2009, 02:27:51 PM

Camera equipment.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 02:29:47 PM

big company?

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Philip.Cohen on July 26, 2009, 02:37:21 PM

I’ve mentioned this 100 times before, too: I have never received a fraudulent SCO (maybe if I change my deodorant?); and the only “genuine” SCO that I have ever received resulted from a seller’s failed attempt to shill bid me higher. So, I too am extremely skeptical about eBay’s “fraudulent SCO” excuse for the introduction of “hidden bidders.” I believe absolutely nothing that eBay says; I assume everything they say is “spin”; everything they do (or don’t do) is aimed solely at improving their bottom line—in total desperation these days.

Poddy,

“The cryptic a***b that is allocated to a bidder is only allocated once and that is what you have fron then on regardless of how many items you bid on.”

Sorry, not so, these masked bidding aliases are being changed on a periodic (quarterly?) basis, and there can be no reason for doing this other than to obscure matters. (I have covered this point in my case study.)

Check your “logged out” status bidding ID across two quarters and you will see that it has changed. Devious aren’t they. They don’t want you to be able to track a suspicious bidder for too long.

The only way you can identify a winning bidder is by watching the seller’s feedback; but why would you want to id a winning bidder anyway, other than to warn them that they had been shilled?

And we don’t want a different ID for every auction; that’s what we had before with “Bidder 1”, etc. We don’t even need these latest aliases; even if you can discover a user’s unique ID, what have you got? A user ID and a vague geographic location; you could send them a message via the eBay messaging system, but why would anyone want to do that?

Cupie,

Grays Online extend an auction by 10 minutes if a bid is made within a certain short period of the nominated time for the auction to end; seems to work OK there; although I prefer the “power” of the snipe on a fixed time ending myself. eBay is a different kettle of fish. I doubt eBay would try to change the existing system, for ultimately, neither the sellers or eBay can flourish without the confidence of the buyers (even though they don’t pay the fees); if they lose too many more buyers the whole thing will nose dive even further.

And, I tell you, I worry when I see a bidder with high feedback nibble bidding; I think only extremely naïve bidders or shill bidders habitually nibble bid.

Bobbybigbear,

I use my own (USD20) database sniping program so they can’t stop me sniping unless they stop me bidding. And anyway, it's still the highest bidder that wins.
Yibida,

Only on one other major forum have I come across the 30 minute limitation on re-editing a post; auctionbytes offers unlimited editing; as one guy criticizing my shill bidding thread pointed out that I had edited it over 200 times, and I responded, “So!” It is a “living” document; it grows a little more nearly every day!

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 02:45:57 PM

Philip,

I wonder who the editing person might be ??

Well I guess it keep him of the streets hahahaha

I'll have to check out thr periodic cryptic ID changes, it would be interesting to know the time frame

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 02:51:45 PM

well RL is tugging at my coat tail so thanks for the discussion and enlightnment people , I'll check back later :)

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 26, 2009, 02:52:14 PM

“So …”—it is a “living” document; it grows a little more nearly every day!

Nicely put.... much like awareness is a living thing and grows a little more every time that living document is amended.  Some people might view it as back peddling, but any objective person will always re-assess their view with each new piece of evidence in any analysis....

As I said earlier though....Ebay make no secret of the fact that they are trying to phase out the auction platform in place of BIN items.....so...I guess that whoever steps into the online auction void will inherit this same culture unless they approach it from another perspective.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 26, 2009, 04:06:28 PM

I am assuming, that there are public access sites on the internet that track IP's, as I have read this on one site, and been threatened with it as my ISP IP was gained through a header on an email.

People have even posted it's possible for someone with the necessary skil, to tell who is on ebays forums from IP addresses, and some process of elimination.

One can assume that, unless a dynamic IP is used on every occasion, the IP from a sniper programme could be obtained and banned. I know I ban proxy servers from my forums, as this is what the ferals use to register filthy names on the site.

I do know the people involved in the vendetta gainst me have a high level of computer skills, or a high level of Bull$hit.

Either way, I have resited the temptation to use their same tactics against them, or indeed others.

It is a fact that I have registered accounts on forums in order to glean information, and return serve, but I have not done that on ebay or oztion.

I have often wished I could change suits, and do the same as they do, but no matter how I feel justified, I cannot bring myself to do it, or coerce others to do it.  It has taught me a lot about computers and the net though.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 26, 2009, 04:12:43 PM

Incidentally, the old auction site Sold.com.au had extended auctions.  A bid in the last 5 minutes extended the auction by 2 minutes. I loved it, but that was pre broadband, and on dial up, you needed that time to place a bid and have it accepted.
In those days, bidding wars were the norm, and you would never put up a bid, because auctions gave you a higher return.

I still believe ebay should of stayed in Packer hands, and if it did, I don't believe we would be talking about the problems that we do.

The Answer to shill bidding is simple, join ebay NZ, there if there is a bid, it's a shill bid ;D

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: ernest_price on July 26, 2009, 04:51:13 PM

Quote from: Poddy on July 26, 2009, 02:29:47 PM

big company?

1700+ feedback on that ID. So not large but at $XX extra per item that's a lot of $$$$ extra.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Bellagina on July 27, 2009, 12:53:59 PM

I received a SCO on some second hand baby clothes I had bid on for my daughter, about 5 minutes after the auction ended!

Now what's the chance that I was shill bid on that one! ;D


Hubby used to get lots of fake SCOs when he was trying to buy a computer program under a certain price - this was before hidden bidders came in, so I guess at least this sort of thing has been slowed by the hidden ids.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Philip.Cohen on July 27, 2009, 01:45:49 PM

Hi Bellagina,

I think that anyone would have to be dopey to be taken in by a fraudulent SCO; does anyone know anyone who has actually been taken in? And, even if you were taken in, you at least found out pretty quickly that you had been taken in and you did not let it happen again. Now, you don't know that you are being taken in by a sophisticated shill bidder. "Ignorence is bliss" so they say, so I suppose that is an improvement—for eBay that is.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *barny* on July 27, 2009, 03:05:36 PM

Um, Philip,

I was not "taken in" but did take up an SCO, even though I believed the seller was using shill bidding..

I wanted the item, which is a rare one, and the SCO was the amount that I was prepared to pay.

I knew that I should have ignored the SCO at the time, but I just didn't want to wait a couple of years for this item, or another one to come up...

What do you, and others think the best thing to do is when confronted with a dilemma like this ??

 :wine:

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Philip.Cohen on July 27, 2009, 03:28:59 PM

barny,

The point is your SCO, like the only SCO that I have ever received, was a "genuine" SCO that followed on from a failed shill bid attempt; but nevertheless it was a "genuine" SCO, not one of the totally fraudulent type that "hidden bidders" was supposedly introduced to stop. You chose to accept yours; that's OK; I chose not to and told the seller why.

I suppose I should rephrase that question: Has anyone ever received a truly fraudulent SCO, paid your money by some untraceable means, never received the goods, and never heard from the "seller" again?

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: ernest_price on July 27, 2009, 03:42:39 PM

The question was asked on the old eBay RT quite a while ago. Out of all the people in there, with some truly huge eBay length and breadth, there was maybe 10 fake SCO's.

I have received one, roughly 4 years ago, but it was so amateurish I nearly wanted to buy it anyway so as to reward the person for the humour they brought me that morning.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Philip.Cohen on July 27, 2009, 04:24:44 PM

So, what does that suggest? That there was some other purpose for the introduction of "hidden bidders". It certainly had nothing to do with the security of buyers that I can see. Then I know eBay to be a thoroughly unscrupulous and disingenuous organisation, so I am not surprised at anything that they do. They also seem to think that most of their users are stupid, and they may well me right in that assumption, as we have been putting up with their crap for a long time, although, looking at their 09Q2 financial results, less are putting up with it of late.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: *cupie* on July 27, 2009, 04:37:47 PM

Hi Phil....the Hip pocket seems to be the only place it makes an impression on ebay....and I doubt they'll consider the views of their customers until it registers on their diminishing profits..........meanwhile, if they played fair, their popularity and consumer trust would grow....Getting rid of the founding niche market of collectors is going to be something they don't live to regret, me thinks......are they dumb or something?  Who get's rid of your founding niche market and lives to tell the tale?...dumb, dumber, dumbest move I've ever seen.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: bobbybigbear on July 27, 2009, 04:45:34 PM

Most of this concurs with my assumptions that everything ebay does in the way of changing rules, is to aid shill bidding.  To play the devils advocate doesn't mean you believe it, but I do think that ebay's bosses see AU as a small country, that, under normal situations, would not make the return on the investment, they would like, so they opted for the alternative to honest trading.

When you think TradeMe was sold around 2 years ago for close to 700 million, to Fairfax Ltd, the originators of Sold.com.au in Australia, and we know that OZtion sold for $1 million in cash, plus $1 million in stock options, in an earn out situation, because it was only break even, then we must assume the Australian market, if run all above board, would not be all that profitable.

Ebay NZ, basically doesn't exist, it's forums are the US boards, and most of the listings are US sellers, so the cost of doing Business in Australia, with it's offices and staff, would need to be on comparison with other countries.  My opinion is that the only way they could do that is by shill bidding, and plenty of it.

Hence my theory, that it is outsourced to someone who is adept at registering many fake id's to bid with, and those fake id's in my opinion, would be in the names of existing members, who's information is gleaned from sales from those people associated with such a person.

I just don't see anything else making sense as to why a group of people would be all over the net gathering peoples details, and having thousands of fake id's on ebay if it wasn't for this reason.


When you consider the record of the person in charge of this group, you will know that it's a little more serious than a personal vendetta against ebay because they deleted his long running thread.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: mandurahmum on July 28, 2009, 06:56:06 PM

I cant believe our shill bidder is back in the silver section, and I cant believe that ebay wont take any action.  If a buyer has 78% bidding activity with the same seller - was 100% until this week, and 3 bidding retractions in the last 6 months with the same seller, then surely anyone can see that something is not right.  Surely if it was fair dink then the seller would have blocked the buyer.

 260451264136   is one of the item numbers - the bidder being 0***i(26) - easy enough to work out who they are as they have left feedback for the seller in the past. 

It makes me so mad, I am an honest buyer and unfortunately this seller is one of the only ones selling the item I really want.

Title: Re: Pick a schill a day
Post by: Poddy on July 28, 2009, 10:39:43 PM

mandurahmum

I went through the same thing ..................for 3 months would you belive.!!

only 2 vendors had the item I needed they each sold 2 of the same iten every week and after having followed those itend for 3 months I had proof positive thet both vendors were shilling their items.

I reported but they are still at it

I finally got one from a brivate seller at a fair price