Paypal's "Mission Impossible" - A Duty of Care

[*Brum6y*]

For the record, I have been given detailed documentation supporting this story.  I have names, addresses, dates and times, emails, case numbers and copies of shipping documents.  I have the tracking information and have performed my own online inquiry on the status of the parcel in question.

I also have the seller's permission to present his story here.  

(A complete copy of the above information and the seller's permission has been forwarded to this site's Admin.)

As you will appreciate, there are some things that I cannot publish and other things that would also carry legal risks to this site - fundamentally, things that could identify the buyer.  So I while I will be presenting as much detail as I possibly can, there will be some details that will not be disclosed and there will be times when I present my own precis in lieu.

I have also looked at bothe the buyer's and seller's feedback profiles and present my own opinion, which I have endeavoured to make objective and accurate.

INTRODUCTION:

This is a story.  A true story which, at the time of writing, still has the last chapter unwritten....

It's a story about Paypal, involving a buyer in Germany, a seller in Hong Kong and an 'ex-display' laptop computer worth around $2,000 AUD.

The buyer is a young fellow - around 20 - living in a town somewhere in the middle of Germany. His membership on eBay is over 6 years old with a feedback score between 100 and 200 - about one third of which is as a seller.  He has a couple of negs, but nothing excessively worrying.

The seller is an Aussie Powerseller who operates out of Australia, but spends much of his time in and around Hong Kong, where he has an office.  He trades in a variety of products - including high value, high tech equipment, such as laptop computers and mobile phones.  He operates on eBay and through his own website and ships all over the world.  From what I have been able to glean, is doing quite well.  

(I will have to ask you to trust me on my examination of his feedback - I've been doing the same exercise on sellers whenever I'm looking to buy - and I've never been stung.  So far.)

While he's not perfect, his (4 digit) feedback indicates he only scores negs when the buyer: didn't read the listing, breaks the item, wants false customs declarations, wants untracked shipping, complains about customs charges, gets caught trying a fraudulent payment or loses a Paypal dispute.  In all the years he's been trading on eBay, his total count of red dots number in the single digit range. His neutrals are fairly mundane for the products involved and he has a couple of 'Withdrawn' ratings.

Other stories I have heard regarding this seller indicate two very, very clear points:  Firstly, he will go to extraordinary lengths to ensure a buyer is happy and, secondly, the power a buyer wields through the leverage of eBay and Paypal is astonishing - and has resulted in this seller pulling out all the stops and then some!

Bottom line: If I was asked if I would buy from this seller, I would answer: Absolutely!!

THE ADVENTURE BEGINS

With the international purchase of a laptop, you can probably expect some correspondence - which certainly happened here.  I have written it up in another thread, so as not to clog up this one too much.  It is not an atypical example of what sellers are expected to go through and still smile sweetly...
The Preliminary Bout: "Ask Seller A Question"

So
 - the buyer has bought and paid for his laptop
 - the seller has sent it on its way

and don't you just know, this is where the fun begins......

[*Brum6y*]

THE FIRST HURDLE

Nine days after posting, the buyer lodges a dispute - Item Not Received.

Let's not dwell on the buyer's motives nor the seller's anxiety - we'll just cut to the chase on this one......

The seller provides the tracking information which shows the item is still in transit and Paypal find in his favour.

Here is the (anonymised) email from Paypal advising of the outcome:

From: service@paypal.com.au
Subject: PayPal: Resolution of Buyer Complaint Case no. < case number >
Date: 29 December 2009 11:48:02 PM GMT+08:00
To: < seller email >

Hello < seller name >,

PayPal has concluded our investigation of the following Buyer Complaint:
Buyer's name: < buyer name >
Buyer's email: < buyer email >
Transaction ID: < transaction id >
Transaction date: 18 Dec 2009
Transaction amount: $2,000.00 AUD
Your transaction ID: < seller transaction id >
Case number: < case number >

Thank you for providing the requested information in a timely manner.

The postal information you provided has been verified. The claim has been
closed in your favor.

Thank you again for your cooperation with our investigation.

Yours sincerely,
PayPal Protection Services Department


I believe this process took less than a day.

A quick decision and correct.  Paypal has done well.

But wait, there's more!

[*Brum6y*]

ROUND 2

Less than 2 days later, the buyer raises a Significantly Not As Described dispute, even though the item is still in transit. (This is the case which prompted me to post the thread: Can a buyer lodge a SNAD dispute without....).  Whilst seemingly an illogical ability, there are some circumstance where it does make sense - but this case is NOT one of those.

The trail followed by this SNAD is, from all accounts, pretty standard.  Here are the basics from the emails received by the seller:

From: service@paypal.com.au
Subject: First Request for Information About Buyer Complaint: Case ID no. < case number >
Date: 31 December 2009 10:54:49 PM GMT+08:00
To: < seller email >
Hello < seller name >,
< buyer name > recently opened a dispute against this transaction indicating
that the purchased item was significantly different than what was described.
The buyer's claim is in regard to merchandise that either was never
received or did not match your original description. Please understand that
until our investigation is complete, the funds associated with this
transaction may be temporarily held. For more information, please review
our User Agreement.
Please be aware that until we complete our investigation, we may place a
hold on funds associated with this transaction.


From: service@paypal.com.au
Subject: Status Update - Case no. < case number >
Date: 2 January 2010 6:36:08 PM GMT+08:00
To: < seller email >
Hello < seller name >,
We are writing to let you know that we requested additional information
from the buyer about this case.
We'll let you know if we require additional information from you.


From: service@paypal.com.au
Subject: Resolution of Buyer Complaint Case No. < case number >
Date: 4 January 2010 6:08:44 PM GMT+08:00
To: < seller email >
Hello < seller name >,
After careful consideration of the evidence provided in the case detailed
below, we have completed our investigation and decided in favour of the
buyer. Under the terms of our User Agreement, we have debited the following
amount from your PayPal account as a refund to the buyer:
-----------------------------------
< Transaction Details >
-----------------------------------

-----------------------------------
What to Do Next
-----------------------------------
If you requested that the buyer return the item to you and it was not
received in its original condition, you may appeal against this decision.
To make an appeal, log in to your PayPal account, click the Resolution
Centre link, and click the Appeal button next to the case.
Please understand that although we will carefully consider your appeal, we
cannot guarantee a reversal of the decision.
-----------------------------------
Due Dates
-----------------------------------
Provide additional information within 10 calendar days from the date this
case was filed.
-----------------------------------
Other Details
-----------------------------------
To review the PayPal User Agreement, visit the PayPal site and click the
'User Agreement' link on the bottom of any page.
At PayPal, security is our top priority. We investigate fraudulent buyers
and transactions in order to protect the integrity of our payments network.
You can help protect yourself by following the steps outlined in our Seller
Protection Policy.
To learn how to protect yourself from disputes, we recommend visiting the
PayPal site and clicking the Security Centre link located at the bottom of
any page. There you will find information in the 'Seller Protection Policy'
section.
Thank you for your patience and cooperation in this matter.
Thanks,
PayPal Protection Services Department

From: service@paypal.com.au
Subject: Resolution of case no. < case number >
Date: 4 January 2010 6:08:45 PM GMT+08:00
To: < seller email >
Hello < seller name >,
PayPal has concluded the investigation of the following claim:
< Transaction Details >
A refund has been initiated from your account and the case is now closed.
Unfortunately, due to insufficient funds your account balance is now
negative and may be limited. Any funds entering the account will apply
toward making a positive balance.
This claim has been solved amicably. Please consider this when leaving
feedback for this buyer.
Yours sincerely,
Protection Services Department


The buyer, I am informed, claimed that they had received "an empty box".  It would seem Paypal simply accepted this statement, despite the seller providing tracking information which showed that the item was still in transit.

Here is a screen shot of the tracking status as it was on the 5th January, showing that German Customs had only just received the item - THE DAY AFTER the case had been closed.

This is going to sound corny - but you ain't seen nuthin' yet!

[attachment deleted by admin]

[*Brum6y*]

ROUND 3

Now, this seller is not the sort of guy to take this lying down and just accept it - especially when he's done everything he's supposed to do.  It's also not in his best interests to become known as an easy target for the high value items he sells.  It goes against his principles as well.

So it is no surprise for him to have appealed the decision.  Twice.

From what I have been able to see, the first appeal was just another formality and was, not surprisingly, denied.

The second appeal was only allowed to be made after our seller pursued the matter - in no uncertain terms.

Here are two emails I received from the seller when I was preparing this story.  They talk about a number of points, but include some details about what he had recently gone through and the conditions imposed to get that second appeal.  They are presented in their entirety, with some bolding I have made of some particularly relevent statements....  (please take into consideration that dates and times of the various entries here are affected by differing time zones)

From: < seller >
To: < Me (Brum6y) >
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:23 PM
Subject: PayPal Issue

Hi < Me (Brum6y) >,

thanks for the email.    i have attached a folder with all the relevant details in which prove beyond a shadow of a double that i shipped the item, the buyer requested the shipping method and agreed to the shipping time.    that PayPal closed the INR in my favor and then allowed the buyer to open an SNAD and find in his favor.    after denying my first appeal the case was granted to me on the second appeal with the condition that i was not given a refund of the payment just the satisfaction of winning the dispute.   the buyer already had the funds and PayPal were not crediting them back to me.     they will also not give me a copy of the police report they claim lists me as shipping an empty box to the buyer.    given the package is still not delivered and he filed a police report on the 2/1 its not rocket science to see it was a scam.

at this stage i have recontacted the buyer and warned him i will be taking legal action and flying to germany to have him charged with fraud.    he claims he never really lied... never really lied?    i told him i wanted a copy of the police report and he said he was not allowed to give it to me.    or he has been told by PayPal not to give it too me.   he also said his account is still open with PayPal and he does not believe he did anything wrong.    only what he was told to do...   told to do????

i have given him an hour to provide the police report or have me on his door step with the police on Monday.

let me know if you need any other detail at all.

best regards

< seller name >

p.s.   this is what sent to the BSFO today
< file attachments included >

 
From: < seller >
To: < Me (Brum6y) >
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:37 AM
Subject: Re: PayPal Issue

Hi < Me (Brum6y) >,

thanks for the response.    not a problem at all.    of course the details sent contain all the contact details etc for the buyer but only because this was given to BFSO so needed that.    feel free to use what you think suitable but as you can see wading through it is what can only be considered as gross misconduct on PayPal's part for failing to investigate the claims made by the buyer and allowing this SNAD dispute to be awarded in his favor even though he had never received the item and it was clear to see this fact looking at the tracking that was provided at the outset and easily seen online.

the fact that at 2am this morning i finally forced a PayPal manager to actually log onto the DHL site whilst i recorded a conversation to see for themselves that the item the buyer claimed he had already received 5 days earlier as an empty box.    she then agreed to reopen the dispute which i had lost and then had my initial appeal declined.     the absolute slap in the face was the granting of my appeal after the 3 attempt only to have PayPal tell me to contact the buyer for my money.    as if he will be going to give it back when he ran the whole thing as a scam.

seller protection .... sure, i won the INR ... but then the buyer was permitted to open an SNAD which has no seller protection ... so the claytons win to allow the buyer to get his money back in the end.

let me know if you need any other details at all.

best regards

< seller name >

Below is a screen shot of the log of the SNAD dispute, with identifying information removed (by me).

Now, if you think we've really got a meaty case where Paypal has something to answer for - in the next instalment you will see that this has just been the entrée!

[attachment deleted by admin]

[*Brum6y*]

So - where is the laptop now?

At the time of writing, it has been cleared by customs for collection - but has, as yet, not been picked up.

This screen shot was taken a couple of days ago and the status has not changed. (I just checked)

[attachment deleted by admin]

[*Brum6y*]

MORE BITS & PIECES

Along the way in the unfolding of this story, there have been a number of other bits of information that have come to light - which add some head-shaking details.  If I were to attempt to write about them, I'd be quickly wearing out my thesaurus in the pages around the ideas of 'incredible', 'unbelievable' and 'slack'.

Fortunately, this seller has done the work for me.

As a Powerseller, he has shared his story on the Powerseller Board and my seller friend, also being a Powerseller, has been able to assist me in capturing some of those posts.

As you will appreciate, out of respect for the privilege of discussion by Powersellers on the Powerseller Board, I am not going to publish any posts from any Powerseller without their permission, nor am I going to discuss any particular points raised by them.  I will, however, make a couple of general observations to put a context around the posts I will be quoting - and I don't think ANY of that will be a surprise at all.

The posts which follow are from the seller involved in this case.  I have obtained his explicit permission to do so and to 'format' some of the content to make it easier to read (essentially, just putting a bullet against each point).

The Context....
From the Powerseller Board, I need only outline these things for you to understand some references in the quoted posts:
1. Posting members are very interested and concerned in this case
2. Holidays to eBali are given
3. Our seller in this case has just come back from one. An excerpt from our seller on his return: "... vacations have never really been a strong preference of mine ... this one was not really a vacation ... up all night working 20 hours a day to prove i am innocent is not my idea of a vacation ..."
4. In his 'absence', other Powersellers had received information from him and posted it on the Powerseller Board ... carefully.


Now is the time to make that cuppa, get comfortable and buckle up....!

[*Brum6y*]

ADMISSIONS & REVELATIONS

From the Powerseller Board (with permission):

Just read.........

14/01/2010 14:47

that was a quick 7 days ...

thank you all for your support in this situation ... post 79 ... all correct ...

at this time the item in question weighing 2.79kg as per the consignment note supplied in the dispute is still in customs and has been awaiting collection now for 6 days. i am told that if its not collected it will be destroyed as unclaimed as it has passed through german customs system and cannot now go back.

DHL have also said they are unable to retrieve the item for me as i am no longer the owner. in respect to if the buyer collects would it be fraud? simple answer no ... because he was awarded the item as a result of his SNAD win and legally entitled to the item paid or not under german common law.

what i have learned in the last 7 days after spending around $5000+ AUD on phone calls to Germany, US, AU and UK:

* buyer had done this more than once (manager in the US said 'has a history')
* buyer is well known to Police who were more than willing to assist with information but require me in person for a formal complaint (on the cards)
* buyer did the same thing to another HK seller in July 2009 for a $4000 item which he claimed was delivered as ''an empty box"
* buyer has in the last 6 months bought via the venue multiple accessories for the item never received from the other seller
* other seller lost their dispute and the payment.
* buyer has admitted he used the same method in this case 'because it worked last time'
* buyer used the same police report and altered the details to reflect this case
* buyer has stated he did what he was told ... opening an SNAD and immediately escalating it to a claim
* buyer still claims he did nothing wrong, has said he is entitled to both the money and the item (after several about faces)
* buyer still has an eBay account
* buyer still has a PayPal account
* buyer has still yet to receive any punishment
* buyer has claimed he has done this before and continues to do it
* …because it works every time
* buyer has had an account for more than 7 years but is only < buyer’s age (around 20)>
* buyer had assistance

* company never investigated the SNAD dispute
* company never investigated the first appeal
* company only opened the second appeal (3rd time lucky) which was granted after the company's representative was forced to look up online the tracking details that had been supplied from the beginning to see the item was in fact in customs and no where near the buyer who claimed the box was empty ... i am sure he really meant his post box was empty and waiting for the package to arrive ... translation issue no doubt.
* company has stated they made a mistake
* company has agreed all documentation supplied by the buyer was fake or forged
* company has agreed the buyer has a history of this type of dispute
* company refuses to give any detail of the documentation or copies of to the seller as the buyer is entitled to privacy

* seller has spent over $5,000 doing the job the company should have, has provided copious amounts of factual documentation, information and investigative assistance to the company and still no action ...
* seller has not received requested copies of the forged documentation which the company led the seller to believe were genuine and carried significant problems for the seller and penalties.
* seller has been told by the buyer he was told by the company not to give me a copy of the documentation
* seller has received a new police report from the buyer which appears to be for harassment and threatening behavior leveled at the seller but this is still being investigated as there are only 2 pages of the report which was 4 pages.

* INR opened was only closed to allow an SNAD dispute which the buyer could win

how many of the other $150,000+ cases of fraud on my account have been handled in the same manner and if i had spent the same amount of time and money doing the companies work in the past would i have found this out sooner?

how many other sellers have suffered the same fate as a result of lack of care on the part of the company like the seller mentioned above who lost $4000?

MODERATOR < this is addressing the eBay moderators >

the information above is true and correct as was all the other information supplied to assist other sellers before i was given my holiday. if you do not believe this to be true contact PP for advice on this before removing my post. sellers are being cheated by scams of this nature all the time and they should be aware of the methods used by some buyers. if you believe its better they just suffer the same for themselves to learn that is unfortunate and perhaps a result of the fact you earn a salary and do not have the same level of exposure to the risks of accepting fraudulent payments. as i have just spent more than most employees monthly salary and a week of my time getting the information i believe i have a right to share it with the other sellers who could be placed at risk.
 

14/01/2010 15:25

i have spoken at length to the other known seller who was a victim of this scam. he was not as fortunate as i with being able to get evidence against the buyer as english is a second language for him.

he does however have one of the largest HK eBay accounts and gets a lot of disputes but this one left a particular bitter taste in his mouth. he was very happy when i contacted him with all my information and the knowledge of his problem. he has now commenced follow up against the buyer and will be discussing with the company what can be done for him. i am in reality a small fish compared to this seller and i hope that he gets some satisfaction.

given the buyer is using the venue to purchase accessories for the item that arrived as an empty box, has admitted in writing that he has used the scam more than once and specifically names the other seller in his email one would hope that it will if nothing else exonerate the other seller of any wrong doing.

in the end no matter the outcome of all of this ... we both still have black marks on our accounts as a result of this scam and like the many others before cause considerable problems when they mount up and effect a lock down on the funds in our accounts.

the company needs to really address this type of situation and i hope my efforts this time around to prove that the buyer was pulling a scam even though they were aware of his history will help to make a change happen.

14/01/2010 20:57

thanks guys great to be back ... all has been forwarded to the BFSO in detail.

i totally agree ... unless others have had the experience they cannot imagine that its possible things like this can happen.

what it has proven and made 110% crystal clear is no seller can ever believe that a dispute has been investigated and or that the buyer has not used false statements, fake police reports or dishonest means to win their money back and when the buyer loses on default via the seller protection they are then encouraged and in this case assisted to get the money back by a fraudulent SNAD claim.

it took me over 7 hours of phone calls to the US with the proof i had from the german police to even get an admission the matter had not been investigated and that the company was aware the documentation was forged. even at that stage the buyer still had the win. only when i forced the point the item was showing as in customs on the DHL site was my appeal granted with the requirement i chase the buyer for the funds.

i was offered $100US for my phone expenses by one of the managers after i told him that i had spend over $5,000 to date chasing the buyer with legal fees, phone calls and other costs. i told him there was a place for the $100US and it was not my account ... (all recorded to boot).

as interesting and enticing as the story is the sad fact of the matter is sellers are paying the price for this type of scam and the company sits back and lets it happen. for me to take action i need a copy of the fake police report ... the company has told me i am not getting it from them and the buyer has said he has been told not to give it to me. at least i have a recorded admission from the company that they are fully aware the documents submitted by the buyer are forgeries and its not the first time he has done it.

the buyer still has his accounts intact ... how many times have i and other sellers been made to pay for the errors of others with suspended accounts, frozen or limited accounts and yet a blatantly open scam which has awarded this buyer over $7000 in goods we know of still does not cause his accounts to fall. how desperate are we for buyers that we are letting this go on?

i would post some of the most damning proof i have uncovered of this here but i am not ready for another trip to eBaili just yet ... and thats where i would go ...


Don't know about you, but I'm speechless.

However I am REALLY, REALLY keen to find out what happens next...!  Overseas travel perhaps...?

[*smee*]

I refer you to athread I started on this forum on 16th July 2009 ..... Pay pal sellers protection .... its a figment of their imagination ..... I rest my case your honour !!!!!!

[*Brum6y*]

BUT, didn't I read somewhere.....?

At PayPal, security is our top priority. We investigate fraudulent buyers and transactions in order to protect the integrity of our payments network. You can help protect yourself by following the steps outlined in our Seller Protection Policy.

To learn how to protect yourself from disputes, we recommend visiting the PayPal site and clicking the Security Centre link located at the bottom of any page. There you will find information in the 'Seller Protection Policy' section.

... and something else just as puzzling...?

This claim has been solved amicably. Please consider this when leaving feedback for this buyer.


Yep - you sure did.  These are excerpts from the SNAD dispute closure emails sent by Paypal.

Irony?  Hypocrisy? Hmmm... Think I'll grab my thesaurus again.

[*Brum6y*]

I refer you to athread I started on this forum on 16th July 2009 ..... Pay pal sellers protection .... its a figment of their imagination ..... I rest my case your honour !!!!!!

Just re-read that thread to reacquaint myself with it.

Certainly, the promotional material on 'Seller Protection' indicates a useful service and the requirements clearly (?) defined.  From what is published, you should not expect the sort of dismissive treatment that Paypal actually dish out - but they do.  It is an unfortunate reality that when these situations are presented on low cost items, the business decision to 'pursue the matter' or to 'write it off' supercedes principles.

I have no doubt that Paypal rely on this for a great deal of their resolution outcomes, however, the seller in the case presented here has the resources and energy to push through that barrier of superciliousness.

But you shouldn't need to.

In the case you presented, Smee, it would seem that Paypal themselves created the problem and then 'withheld' your money. That really worries me - but I would ask: "Why did you let them get away with it?".

Why didn't you pursue them for information, an explanation, return of your funds - and persist until you had satisfaction?

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not singling you out to have a go at you - the same questions apply to any seller who has encountered problems not of their own making.

And I am more than aware of the reason.  As I said above, it's just not worth the time, cost and effort for most sellers.  (By their actions, Paypal are certainly aware of this and taking full advantage of it).


But I hear you say "That's all bollocks! I shouldn't have to go through all that."

... and I could not agree more - but it's this elitist, bullying attitude that needs to be broken, even though it has no right to even exist in the first place.


The problem exists. It is undeniable, but a million plaintive posts on the forums of the world decrying this sad state are so easily ignored.  Why? Because they can be.  And thus, by being ignored, lose their power.

However, this is a story about Paypal being shown they can be held accountable, the efforts that have been made in order to make this happen and the discovery of some dirty little secrets along the way.


This is a story of challenge and, perhaps, one step further towards change.

[*smee*]

Sir Brumbles . I did pursue it .... it cost me hundreds of $$$$$$ .... but I pursued it and in the end received an 'ex gracia' payment from paypal for purchase price only , not my costs pursuing them ....

fact remains though .... there is no seller protection actually provided by PAYPAL ...

as the  seller in your story has found out the hard way

All I am trying to do is get the message through to other sellers that you can not feel secure by Paypals useless policy ... in reality there is NO SELLER    protection !... the only protection the seller has is what Aust Post offers

[*Ubbie Max*]

Brum6y. Your story is frightening. I feel for Ebay sellers as there are obviously many crooked buyers out there & Ebay sides with them all the time.

My memory may not be completely accurate but, didn't Ebay/Paypal make a statement to the ACCC regarding buyer/seller protection that contradicts this incident. If Ebay/Paypal did make such a statement to the ACC re protection they lied to the ACCC.

[cueperkins]

No Ubb....I think you may be referring to the Payment Systems Board or RBA.....possibly even ASIC, as the BFSO, reports back to ASIC on systemic issues with any payment system....enough complaints and ASIC then investigate them.....BTW...it's also ASIC who administer the EFT Code of Conduct......and thus the reason why they recommended that Paypal sign the Code back in the ACCC debacle.

So...no....this is more related to the Payment Systems Board and rules governing payment systems under APRA licensing...

And........can't help it........TOLD YA SO.....LOL....

Any wonder why I still refuse to join that pirate payment system?   I believe the worse is yet to come actually.....sooner or later we're going to hear about a mass hacking of paypal accounts....like that's not possible?  Crikey China has been hacking into private email accounts of Google owners...so just how hard does anyone think it might be hacking an email account?...lol.....

Funny thing is, that it will be only then, when there are thousands of victims, that anyone will bother doing anything.....and just like the ACCC issue, Media will gag the issue and it will be the 'RETURN OF THE REBELS' that brings it to the fore once again....thank gord we have this site when that does happen.....not if it happens..

Remember the famous words of Wobbit the Bwuce......Paypal protection was and is illusory....non existent, dead, demised, nailed to the bleeding perch....it's snuffed it...lol

[*Brum6y*]

Sir Brumbles . I did pursue it .... it cost me hundreds of $$$$$$ .... but I pursued it and in the end received an 'ex gracia' payment from paypal for purchase price only , not my costs pursuing them ....

My apologies - I wasn't aware of the extent of your efforts, Smee.

fact remains though .... there is no seller protection actually provided by PAYPAL ...

as the  seller in your story has found out the hard way

All I am trying to do is get the message through to other sellers that you can not feel secure by Paypals useless policy ... in reality there is NO SELLER    protection !... the only protection the seller has is what Aust Post offers

I can only agree with you .... unfortunately.

But it HAS to change ... which is why I have gone to the effort of posting this story.

... and I will be posting more as the matter progresses.

[*Brum6y*]

IT'S BEEN A WEEK - WHAT'S BEEN HAPPENING?

I contacted the seller for an update and he advised me he is still persuing matters in Germany.  He didn't give me any details at this time, but I'm sure he will when the time is right.

He also stated the laptop still had not been picked up from German customs.  I checked the tracking status and sure enough, it is still showing as having cleared customs, but delivery has not been taken.  One wonders if the buyer is game to even try...

But our buyer - the one who was caught out supplying false police reports (amongst other things) - is still happily buying.  EBay and Paypal accounts still operational.

I checked his feedback to find in the last month, he has bought, amongst other things, a leather case specifically designed for the laptop still waiting to be collected, a DVI adapter and a 22" LCD monitor.  Curiously interconnectable.

Looking at the items against his other feedback, this boy likes getting his high-tech gear from eBay ... and he's still doing it.

Buying, that is.  I can't tell if he's doing anything else..... but he is getting positive feedback.

[*Brum6y*]

HAVE I HEARD FROM THE SELLER?  WHERE IS THIS MATTER UP TO?

Yes, it has been a while since the last update, but this story is now being told in real time and since it is now involving legal processes, that time line moves slowly.

When you are not privy to their daily schedule, it is a risk to overburden a business person with a matter incidental to their survival (such as the reporting on this thread) - and so my emails to the seller have been few and brief.  One concern was the probability of the seller's time being grossly dominated by topical legal matters.

I have finally received a response from the seller that indicates my concern was well founded - and truer than I would have imagined.

Here is his opening paragraph:

thanks for the emails and apologies for not getting back to you sooner.  unfortunately, i have been tied up in dealing with the last two PayPal issues with the police and my lawyers.  i have had a total of about 7 hours sleep in the last 7 days and spent over $20,000 in legal fees and other costs since this began.

Since he is operating in the high value consumer electronics market, it is not surprising that he has more than one issue to deal with.  He also disclosed the value of the last 5 years worth of Paypal's indiscretions and while I won't divulge that figure, it puts his current legal bill into a justifiable perspective.

He goes on to provide details of some of the nature of the investigations being conducted by police, lawyers and others.  At this time, however, it would be unwise to publish those details on this publicly accessible thread since it might compromise the effectiveness of his legal efforts.  When the time is right, I will present some of that information, as appropriate.

It is very clear that matters are still being actively pursued - and that distinct progress is being made.  When the matter will be resolved is not known, but there is little doubt that it WILL be.

[*Brum6y*]

OH - YES ... JUST ONE MORE THING

It is always a fact that just because of one or two difficulties we face, the world doesn't stop to allow us to catch up ... it just keeps turning.  (Can you spot the odd one out?...)

Sellers do what sellers do.
Buyers do what buyers do.
EBay does what eBay does.
Monkeys do what monkeys do.
Paypal does what Paypal does...........

Now I'm just being flippant.

Or am I?

The last paragraph of this seller's email just shows how ridiculous buyers' attitudes have become...

today i had another INR from france this time $2000 computer ... the buyer rejected the delivery because they had to pay tax and believe this is our issue even though our terms and conditions state they are responsible.    prior to contacting us they opened the dispute and demanded full refund immediately.   never ends.


I am simply amazed at the lack of responsibility taken by buyers in regard to customs and quarantine regulations - let alone an appreciation of why they exist.... and with Paypal bailing them out, they aren't ever going to learn.

So, for this seller (and others) it, indeed, never ends.


Wonder what's next?

[*Brum6y*]

...AND SOMETIMES YOU JUST GET A SURPRISE GIFT!

The following is not as blatant an example of internet ignorance as has been known to occur, but you would think that by now ...

Obviously not.

Here is another very recent morsel from the keyboard of our intrepid seller.  (I've just copied it here ... I don't think anything more needs saying!)

my god some people are so infinitely stupid ... it amazes me ... but to all good things they bring into our presence for publishing themselves for the world to see is heart warming ...

most know of my plight with the german boy who stole a computer from me using a forged police assisted by lack of interest by the company ...

i have been diligently working with lawyers, law enforcement and countless hours on the phone and computer in an effort to find this boy and or a way to get justice for his crime ...

tonight bless his soul he up dated his gmail buzz on one of the email addresses i sent him an email from ... giving me full details of his school ... low and behold the IP address used in emails is located on the school premises ... implicating the school in the fraud for providing the venue for the boy to defraud us and file his forged police report ...

happy chinese new year Mr Smith ...

as a consequence i have been able to send an email direct to the school principle detailing the case, the forged police report and his behavior ... perhaps they will be good enough to expel him ... or at least compensate my losses caused because they did not monitor his use of school property ...

i love technology ...


This just keeps getting better...

[*Ubbie Max*]

Keep us posted Brum6y.

[*CountessA*]

This is more gripping than CSI.

[gr8-expectations]

the plot thuckens ...

[*Ubbie Max*]

Yep Countess & Gr8. I wonder if any bodies will turn up! Maybe there will be a terrorism twist. I hope so, I love a good juicy thriller.

[*Brum6y*]

Please - let's not get carried away.


An administrative win would be far more poetic than a row of heads on pikes (however appealing that might seem).

You never know, there might be some heads rolling as a result of all this - and there won't be a drop of blood on any of our hands!


Couldn't ask for better... but let's just see what unfolds......

[gr8-expectations]

Yep Countess & Gr8. I wonder if any bodies will turn up! Maybe there will be a terrorism twist. I hope so, I love a good juicy thriller.

"loaded" undies and planes perhaps ubie? lol

[gr8-expectations]

on a serious note though, thank god they got that guy and others like him before they take out their twisted plots on innocents

[*Brum6y*]

THE WHEELS GRIND SLOWLY IN GERMANY – BUT JUST WEST OF THE BORDER……

As we wait for news of further developments with our intrepid seller’s German lad, let us pass the time by having a closer look at one of the more recent examples of the perils of international selling.

Our longsuffering seller has forwarded me further details on the other laptop mentioned earlier – the one that went to France. I present it here, with some comments of mine interspersed…

He begins:

not sure if you have seen my new post but again i have been hit by an EU buyer ... this one not so dishonest as stupid and using the system to get his payment back.    

Well, that is different to the German case – but does it make life any easier?  I know – silly question. You can stop laughing… (I can guarantee you won’t be laughing by the time you finish reading this instalment.)

he purchased a computer $2000 and then paid for EMS shipping with full insurance ... even pointed out to ensure the item is insured for the full amount.    item shipped with full insurance (in this case 11500HKD).     item took 36 hours HK to EU and when it arrived the buyer refused to accept it because there was tax payable.    instead he opened an INR and stated he had refused the package because he could not afford the tax and wanted his payment back asap.

At least he was honest.

PayPal after carefully investigating the case found in his favor ... based on the fact that its the sellers responsibility to ensure that the buyer does not have to pay tax or if tax is payable the seller pays it.

?? Including import duties ??  This is a new twist to some pretty longstanding practices in international shipment of goods – or am I mistaken?

i appealed the dispute on the basis that i provided PayPal with the full details of the shipment, and that it should be covered under the AU seller protection policy.       the response was appeal denied because the item was not delivered.

i then drew their attention to the buyers dispute in which they stated that when the item was delivered they rejected it because they did not want to pay the tax.     i asked PayPal for a copy of the policy that states that a buyer is entitled to reject an item if they do not want to pay the tax and or where the seller is responsible for it.     i also asked for clarification on the AU seller protection policy that states the seller only need to ship the item as require to be covered ... not deliver.

Isn’t it just amazing how much work a seller has to go through just to get Paypal to understand their own policies and then to get them to actually follow them?

PayPal then agreed i was right and that they had not investigated the case or noticed that the buyer had stated he did not want to pay the tax or when they spoke with the buyer on the phone remember him mentioning the item arriving and he not being able to pay the tax.

Another example of Paypal’s absolute consistency in NOT investigating a case, nor even paying attention to evidence put right in front of them.  It would seem that whenever more than one piece of evidence, policy citation or procedural challenge is presented to Paypal, they just take the easy way out and find in favour of the buyer and it is then up to the seller to be relentless in their efforts for the facts of the case to be properly considered. 

Even then, there is (wait for it……) a ‘but’………

The only thing is again ... they have found in my favor with the clause ... you go to the buyer to get back the funds ... this is a matter between you and them now as they have been given a refund in error.

Ahhhhh, the moral victory!  At least Paypal are being consistent about the funds side of it – ‘Go chase them yourself’.  I am underwhelmed … such dismissiveness makes me see red – and I’m not just talking about the ledger!

Just so I don’t lose what little objectivity I have left, let’s move on… So, what does the ledger look like?…

the $2000 computer is in French customs waiting for someone to pay $487AUD tax for it to either be delivered or returned ... the return shipping is $150AUD and i paid $107AUD to ship it.    so total cost to get it back after the buyers little error is $744AUD ... i also registered the computer in the buyers name after setting up it for them as requested so its second hand.     so now 2 x $2000 computers in EU that belong to me because PayPal made an error ...

So – in a nutshell – an experienced and successful seller, who has done everything by the book will end up having to pay $744AUD to get back his (now) second hand laptop. No responsibility is being taken by, nor being required of, the buyer who, through their ignorance, caused the problem, since PayPal is more than ready to keep them happy via the complete abdication of any and all responsibility, morals and ethics.  (There are some readers that would class this as borderline criminal activity – and a greater number that would vehemently challenge the use of the word ‘borderline’ … and whilst I do not advocate such, I find myself unable to disagree.)

The equation is so simple, isn’t it?  Offer the “improved buying experience” at the sole risk of the seller.  Seems to be working well for the “Venue” ** and the “Company” **.


Such an inspiration …. for me to get back into working on the website setup for my seller.


** “Venue” and “Company” are, respectively, code words for eBay and PayPal. On the eBay forums, such code words must be used if any negative sentiments are expressed towards those two entities – otherwise moderation, slaps and holidays to eBali are freely on offer

[Bazza]

Yeah, ebay isn't for everybody. That seller Brum6y suffers more 'bad luck' than any other seller I've heard of. His bad luck has been going on for at least 5 years that I know of. Not good at taking offered advice that one. With all that 'bad luck', it's amazing that he's still in business......truly......amazing

[Roo]

I remember once reading something in the Ebay Help pages that actually said that Buyers were responsible for any extra taxes or charges imposed on them by their local Customs.  That it was their responsibility to find out what those charges were.

I tried to find the link....but surprise!  Ebay's Help pages were having a problem...something about pages being moved...unable to connect to them...lol

[Bazza]

“International Buyers – Please Note:

Import duties, taxes and charges are not included in the item price or postage charges. These charges are the buyer’s responsibility.

Please check with your country’s customs office to determine what these additional costs will be prior to bidding/buying.

[Roo]

Thanks Bazza!

I guess my memory hasn't gone yet...lol

Can you put a link in here please?   You can do that here....you don't get slapped for links like that here....

[Bazza]

http://pages.ebay.com.au/help/policies/feedback-removal.html

Found by doing a search for Import Duties in the help page search bar.


What's a slap?

[*FluffyDuckee*]

It's kind of like a spank Bazza, but not as enjoyable. 

[Roo]

Thanks again Bazza!   When I tried to get into Help earlier this arvo I couldn't get in....usual Ebay glitch I think...or maybe they just don't want to let some people know their rights...**shrugs

I remember the days when you used to be able to whiz in and out with a handy link...in the old days.

I guess some things don't improve with age...lol


What's a slap?

Awwww...C'mon....don't be so modest...I'm sure you have had your fair share...lol

None done by me I must add.....but I hear there is a Feral poster over there that does it for fun...

[Bazza]

Nah....ya lost me 

[Roo]

Nup...I didn't lose you.......you get lost by yourself.

[Bazza]

I think Brum6ys thread is in danger of being thrown off course 

[Roo]

Yeah...thanks to you..lol

Buzz off then...don't slam the door ......nice seeing ya!

[Bazza]

Please feel free to ignore my posts in future won't you Roo 

[Roo]

You can't ignore a loaded gun...when it's in your face Bazza....so get your hands off the pistol.

And I'm too much of a lady to say what I would really like to say.....so my Buzz Off statement was tame.

[Bazza]

See, now that's not ignoring 

[Roo]

Flock Off....

[Roo]

That's what sheep do...anyway..lol

[Poddy]

And now you are basking in the limelight huh Bazza?

My guess is that you had an urge to deflect the subject of this thread, which you almost achieved, but not quite 

[Bazza]

Now that's not very friendly Roo......and you were so polite earlier.

I believe that inter-personal disputes are moderated here?



Not at all Poddy.

Just adding what I know to be true 

[Roo]

This ain't Ebay Bazza.....you play by this sites rules here.  The mods here also know what is what...and you don't get some guy in India trying to decipher the meaning of Aussie slang...or inuendo.

If I get a warning...no sweat off my nose....but at least I had my say.

It's a shame you don't have the wit to at least make some funny remarks that may diffuse the situation though.

[Bazza]

Sorry, I must have missed 'the situation' Roo.

[Roo]

You seem to 'miss' a lot Bazza.

[*Brum6y*]

This thread was originally intended to present the details of an actual case - so that they may be examined and assessed by those who find it of interest.

There are facts presented, with supporting evidence - that I have not published since the fundamental issues of privacy demand they not be publicly disclosed.

There are opinions of the seller involved have been presented, as have some opinions of my own and these should be fairly self-evident.


As for this post:

Yeah, ebay isn't for everybody. That seller Brum6y suffers more 'bad luck' than any other seller I've heard of. His bad luck has been going on for at least 5 years that I know of. Not good at taking offered advice that one. With all that 'bad luck', it's amazing that he's still in business......truly......amazing

... I find it a brilliant example of assumption, misrepresentation and absolute ignorance of the seller involved, their principles, their business and its turnover.

Please, Bazza, post more of this inane baiting.  I could not do anything better in destroying your credibility if I tried.

.... and those that are seriously following this thread will see it for what it is.

[Poddy]

Oh yes Bazza, you value truth don't you? Or so it was said in a previous existence by another poster who is no longer with us, I wonder if we should put that to the test?

Yeah why not, simple yes/no answer please, and can we take avoiding the answer as an answer in the affirmative?

Challenging huh?

Bazza are you the person who was Riff Raff?

That should put paid to any future conjecture

[Roo]

Silence is golden...Game..Set...Match!